Can we change the tint on Elementalist Lux's Q Binding after hit to match her elements better?

How Do You Meta·Nov 11, 2016·40 votes·10,206 views

Like color in the top of the prison based on her element instead of having all 10 skins have white binding prisons and maybe even having an element icon as the pattern on the top of the snare like her element icon shown on her dashboard?

I really love this skin, I just find it really funky that all of her kit has been changed pretty well with her different skins but her binding particles are very similar with hardly noticeable clouds of particles because of the white bindings on all of them.

http://i.imgur.com/8RXHkss.png

Something like this

29 Comments

Namazu EbisuNov 11, 20169 votes

Sorry to kill the mood but many people asked on PBE feedback thread and KateyKhaos answered every time : No we are not changing for clarity & gameplay reasons

Source

RiotmoonstonesNov 11, 201615 votes

Thanks for calling this out. Yes, this is correct, we aren't making changes to due to clarity concerns.

Zenthon PrimeNov 11, 201638 votes

I don't really think the clarity concerns make any sense in this case, for several reasons:

Remember Braum? Originally his passive had the same symbol for all skins because of clarity concerns. It got changed because it turned out not be actually be an issue.
The projectile itself changes drastically. Personally I'd be far more worried about that causing clarity issues than the effect.
Even with slight color changes, the pattern wouldn't have to change at all. It'd be pretty recognizable, moreso than many other champions and their skins.
The only other abilities that look anything like Lux Q's effect are Morg Q and Ryze W - which are the exact same effect, a root.
Calling this a clarity concern in a world where Project Ashe's and SG Jinx's ults exist in a fine state is kinda silly. You guys need to have a bit more confidence in your playerbase to not be incompetent.
This skin already has an example of how to do this right: her ultimate. The ult symbol flashes a matching color to her element during the windup.

TLDR: Players aren't blind. We deal with far more drastic changes in champion appearance and ability appearance regularly. Not only would this not even be a large change, but even if it was, it still wouldn't be an issue.

ArdenWitcherNov 11, 20163 votes

Agreed. Now we wait for her reply.... if there will even be one.

RiotmoonstonesNov 14, 20164 votes

There is one - see above. Sorry, it was the weekend, so I wasn't on the boards.

XonraNov 12, 20164 votes

*Or Blitz' grab on iBlitz

Half the time I don't see it coming at me until half way through the animation or until it is too late to dodge. Sometimes I even hear the hook sound before I see anything from it.

yay nibbersNov 12, 20169 votes

While I obviously agree with your other points, the first one is the biggest for me. The clarity excuse is frankly insulting, especially with how inconsistently it is applied. For example: Why is El Tigre Braum allowed a new passive marker but not Warring Kingdoms Nidalee?

Victorious Morgana has a bright blue completely unique Q binding particle (not to mention her other skins have tinted bind particles) but Elementalist Lux, A BLOODY ULTIMATE SKIN, can't get even get just a tint job for her Q particles?

I'm sorry Katey, but to say it's a 'clarity issue' is a crock of shit. It's especially insulting because this is a skin that will cost triple what most skins cost, and many of those skins do exactly what they say you won't do with this skin because muh clarity. If Lux's bleedin' ultimate skin can't even get a simple tint job for her binding circles because clarity, then by the same logic no skin should have altered particles at all.

rtbf225618241Nov 12, 20161 votes

Tbh this skin should cost a lot more due to it requiring a lot more work than any other Ultimate skin ever has. Repeatedly.

RiotmoonstonesNov 14, 20163 votes

Why is El Tigre Braum allowed a new passive marker but not Warring Kingdoms Nidalee?

We learned from the WK Nidalee overhead particle, and did change it for Challenger. :) TL;DR on that one was, we're okay with a bit of a color change, as long as the indicator keeps a similar shape'. In WK Nidalee's case, a fleur-de-lis is way different from what her base overhead particle was.

In terms of gameplay, as I've stated above, I'm relaying what our team (skins) was given for green light / red light for particles, animations, sounds, etc. Gameplay takes priority over how pretty something looks. A good example in this particular skin was toning back some of the shield particles because they were insanely loud to begin with.

I do appreciate you being honest, and I understand that not everyone is going to like the fact that we aren't changing something due to gameplay, or like the skin overall - if you aren't a Lux main, this skin likely isn't for you to begin with.

I think the points I've written above address a lot of the reasoning for what we've done with Elementalist Lux and why. I'll be honest, we wanted to make more colorful changes in some cases, but we didn't want to skew gameplay.

This goes beyond particles.

Why doesn't Lux's (W) give you elemental power? She gains elemental power via damaging enemies. If we allowed this based off skills, players would spam their (W) every time it came up, and wouldn't have it for when it counts - whether it's for your teammate or not. We also changed the system to allow for passive elemental powers to be gained over time because we didn't want it to feel bad if you're playing support Lux and not doing a ton of damage to enemy champions. Again, another example as to why gameplay choices are important, and why we can't do some things because we don't want to drastically change how a champion is played based on a skin.

RiotmoonstonesNov 14, 20164 votes

Remember Braum? Originally his passive had the same symbol for all skins because of clarity concerns. It got changed because it turned out not be actually be an issue.

You're 100% correct here. The first time around because it was something that wasn't super iconic and we didn't want to cause more confusion with a new champion. We aren't against changing things, especially when we realize we're wrong and didn't make the correct call.

We made several changes to particles existing in the game, including Underworld Twisted Fate due to clarity concerns as well.

Another few examples here include PROJECT: Ekko's passive indicator, and PROJECT: Ashe's arrow. We didn't make the right design calls on these, admitted our mistakes, and had changes ready for the following patch.

We fuck up sometimes, to be blunt with you.

The projectile itself changes drastically. Personally I'd be far more worried about that causing clarity issues than the effect.

The original designs were huge offenders, and we changed the shape and the color of the particles to avoid them looking wicked similar to existing particles in the game. (As the game ages, and we have more and more skins, we'll of course have similar particles in some cases, and the Skins team relies on gameplay, champion, and playtest teams to help us make correct calls. After all, we're just here to make pretty things - they tend to pull us back a bit to avoid huge concerns.

Even with slight color changes, the pattern wouldn't have to change at all. It'd be pretty recognizable, moreso than many other champions and their skins.

The only other abilities that look anything like Lux Q's effect are Morg Q and Ryze W - which are the exact same effect, a root.

Morgana's (Q) is and Ryze's (W) were two of the biggest issues we had, particularly Dark Form Lux's (Q) binding reading as Morgana's (Q) binding . Morgana's (Q). While yes, both snares, it's still important to understand who they're coming from.

We need consistency across Lux's (Q), which was the biggest discussion we had. If you can't recognize that you've been hit by Lux's (Q) binding - which is the beginning of her full spell combo - you're going to have a bad time. Her passive procing off of it means a lot more than an AA done by Morgana after a (Q) binding hits.

In order to still keep with the thematic, you'll notice there are elemental pieces inside of the bindings - i.e. leaves in the nature form. While it may not be a different colored binding for each, we made a conscious decision to do what we could to include the thematic throughout the kit.

Calling this a clarity concern in a world where Project Ashe's and SG Jinx's ults exist in a fine state is kinda silly. You guys need to have a bit more confidence in your playerbase to not be incompetent.

I mentioned PROJECT: Ashe's arrow above, and I personally haven't received feedback regarding Star Guardian Jinx's ult, so I'd be happy to hear you out on this one.

It's not a matter of being confident in our playerbase, but keep in mind there are new players, and there absolutely an adjustment period for a lot of things. Hell, I've been playing since before season one, and I still need to adjust to some of the new skins that come out, and I'm the one working on them. There is a difference between adjusting to new particles and clarity, though. This is why some particle's don't change period, such as Jinx's Zap! indicator.

This skin already has an example of how to do this right: her ultimate. The ult symbol flashes a matching color to her element during the windup.

I absolutely agree with you here.

TL;DR Our primary goal is not not impact gameplay when making a skin. While something may look wicked cool, it may skew gameplay a bunch. Gameplay impacting animations, particles, etc. > aesthetics. As I've said, we aren't perfect and do make mistakes.

I'm happy to discuss this more, but keep in mind, I am on skins, so my primary expertise comes from skins, and the gameplay aspects I'm discussing here are based off of meetings we've had with several teams. :)

Zenthon PrimeNov 15, 20162 votes

Thank you for the comprehensive response, first of all. You covered most of my points, so I'll make a few in response and then a few I've thought about since my initial reply.

I personally haven't received feedback regarding Star Guardian Jinx's ult, so I'd be happy to hear you out on this one.

This is just from my experience, but SG Jinx's ult is very different in look to Jinx's ult in any other skin, in particles, look of projectile and sound. Obviously it's still a case of "oh boy big projectile better dodge", but when that skin came out I was blindsided a few times by that ult when I don't think I normally would be.

That brings me to my next point: sound effects. Sound is huge in LoL from my experience, and your sound department is very good at creating distinguished sounds. In fact, Lux and Morg Qs are fantastic examples: Morg Q has an extremely recognizable hard sound when it hits and an equally distinguished firing sound. Lux Q is very similar (soft hit sound and sparkly firing noise), as is Lux's passive SFX. Ryze's W is a similar case where all of Ryze's abilities have that odd "rune" sound to them. It's hard to explain, but think of his Q SFX. So, that's one element making them different gameplay-wise without even taking visuals into account.

As for visuals: I decided to take a look at all the potential cases with Ryze and Morg where their roots would be similar to Elementalist Lux, and potential solutions. Keep in mind that the maximum change here for Ele Lux Q is a slight tint change (demonstrated in the OP), not something as drastic as a complete recolor like the start of the ult. I'll list each element and any changes I think should be made to keep them distinct from other abilities while looking better than they do now:

Light: Unchanged for obvious reasons.
Fire: Slight tint. Blackthorn Morg is a much darker shade of red and has no upper symbol; similarity is nearly nonexistent.
Water: Slight tint. The particles on this one are actually pretty good, and it should be fairly recognizable from Ryze W for this reason. Ryze W is also a distinctly different shade of blue, IMO.
Air: Unchanged. The current visuals fit the colorless state of this element.
Nature: Slight tint, perhaps more so than the others. This shade of green appears in no Ryze or Morg skin; both Zombie Ryze and Lunar Wraith Morg use jade rather than pure green.
Ice: Either a moderate tint or better ice particles. This one doesn't look too great right now, but I can see concerns with it looking too much like Ryze W with a tint. Therefore, instead of a tint improving the particles may be the better option.
Magma: Arguably the worst offender, this one needs changes somewhere IMO. I recommend a red tint, but I do see concerns with Blackthorn Morg, so it'd have to be a sufficiently light red.
Mystic: Slight pink tint. See the OP; I see absolutely no cases of conflicts with Ryze or Morg here.
Storm: Very slight blue tint. Like ice I see issues with Ryze W here, so caution would be needed. If no changes were made it wouldn't be the end of the world but I think some adjustments could be made without too much issue.
Dark: Ah, the problem child. I actually think this one could work really well if you made the white the same shade as the white in her Q projectile of this same form. It's still a noticeable dissonance, but it makes sense with the other particles of that element. The white here would still be easily enough to make it very different from Morg Q, which has no white in any version.

I'm glad we can have a constructive discussion about this, because I feel Elementalist Lux should be of the highest quality possible given its tier of Ultimate. Also, I personally wouldn't mind if visual changes like this were put of until, say, the patch after the skin launched. The situation as-is isn't bad per say, just a bit sub-optimal, and I know you guys in the skins team are pretty pressed for time.

RiotmoonstonesNov 16, 20163 votes

Thank you for the comprehensive response, first of all. You covered most of my points, so I'll make a few in response and then a few I've thought about since my initial reply.

I'm glad it was helpful! I know there was a ton to digest in the original post, and wanted to give examples, as opposed to the 'well, gameplay'. I feel like examples can help everyone better understand some of the reasoning behind our choices - even if they aren't always the most popular choices. And, as with Braum, for example, we are open to realizing we can and should change something in some cases.

This is just from my experience, but SG Jinx's ult is very different in look to Jinx's ult in any other skin, in particles, look of projectile and sound. Obviously it's still a case of "oh boy big projectile better dodge", but when that skin came out I was blindsided a few times by that ult when I don't think I normally would be.

This is fair. Have you adjusted to it at all after playing against it, or is this still something you're having a hard time recognizing? With some new skins myself, and I'm sure players alike, may need some adjustment time (especially for legendary and ultimate skins where everything is drastically different in a lot of cases).

That brings me to my next point: sound effects. Sound is huge in LoL from my experience, and your sound department is very good at creating distinguished sounds. In fact, Lux and Morg Qs are fantastic examples: Morg Q has an extremely recognizable hard sound when it hits and an equally distinguished firing sound. Lux Q is very similar (soft hit sound and sparkly firing noise), as is Lux's passive SFX. Ryze's W is a similar case where all of Ryze's abilities have that odd "rune" sound to them. It's hard to explain, but think of his Q SFX. So, that's one element making them different gameplay-wise without even taking visuals into account.

100% agree with you here that SFX can be important for gameplay, and something that can really separate one skill from another. I think Kled and Sion both have SFX that are really clear indicators as to what's about to happen. On the flip side, some players don't play with sound on (they're usually listening to music, or just don't care for sound), and may miss some of the audio cues, which is why balancing things out with particles is so important. I personally have no idea how people play without sound because I do ten times worse. :D

As for visuals: I decided to take a look at all the potential cases with Ryze and Morg where their roots would be similar to Elementalist Lux, and potential solutions. Keep in mind that the maximum change here for Ele Lux Q is a slight tint change (demonstrated in the OP), not something as drastic as a complete recolor like the start of the ult. I'll list each element and any changes I think should be made to keep them distinct from other abilities while looking better than they do now:

I do appreciate you taking my examples and taking a second look at them - it actually means a lot, and wasn't just taken as a 'yeah, yeah, you aren't listening. :)

To pile off that, I think it's awesome you've gone ahead and run through all of the forms with some interesting ideas on how to go about some of the changes. For some of them (such as fire and ice), we wanted to avoid something that looked like a DoT. Similarly, with ice, we wanted to avoid something looking like a slow (with the snowflakes, and icy-style particles). I know you're discussing the cage itself, but as a package deal (particles + cage), it was something we were concerned about.

While I can't guarantee changes, I'd be happy to pop this through gameplay again and get their second thoughts on what you've brought up and see what they think. I may also bring up the idea of Braum passive (while much lower scope/a game changer) and see if it's something that could be adjusted in the future, once players may become adjusted to Elementalist Lux.

Again, no promises, but you've been great with examples, and I think it warrants at least bringing up the discussion again!

AwoofNov 15, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot KateyKhaos,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=sjPgvxoM,comment-id=0003000000000003,timestamp=2016-11-14T21:14:01.526+0000)

If you can't recognize that you've been hit by Lux's (Q) binding - which is the beginning of her full spell combo - you're going to have a bad time. Her passive procing off of it means a lot more than an AA done by Morgana after a (Q) binding hits.

One could argue this would be obvious by having Lux' passive on you, but you probably considered that.

RiotmoonstonesNov 16, 20163 votes

Yup - we looped in gameplay in nearly every conversation we had about particles for this skin. :)

blackfootedfoxNov 16, 20161 votes

Are these clarity issues why certain champions just don't get skins that change particle effects like Twitch ?

RiotmoonstonesNov 16, 20163 votes

Nope - no one is 100% exempt. Poison is a tricky one to deal with, but I don't think it would be impossible.

Supreme Senpai69Nov 12, 20164 votes

Not the answer I wanted, but can we just take a second and give her kudos for posting it anyway? I appreciate the honesty even if it's something the players aren't too fond of.

UnvictusNov 12, 20163 votes

She has a track record for posting comments that aren't taken well by the community. Idk if riot made her their punching bag and make her post all the bad news related to skins or she just doesn't know what she's talking about. Many of her previous posts are poorly thought out and often don't make any logical sense and are often hypocritical such as this one. We have way more drastic particle changes that could cause clarity issues in the game currently. Simply changing the colors on her binding effect would be NOTHING compared to some current particles. Not to mention all the ignorant excuses she gives for the decisions that are made. Such as marauder Ashe not having red particles, she said "we want people to have a cheap skin they can buy for their favorite champ if they don't want to spend a lot of money on one" and yet Ashe has Woad, Sherwood Forrest and Freljord which are all cheap skins. Pretty lame excuse if you ask me. I appreciate honesty, but not ignorance and hypocrisy.

LostFr0stNov 14, 20161 votes

What about Fizz fish? With the new Shark sizes the animations no longer match the hitboxes, in addition to it being a fish in one skin, a carrot in the next, etc. Is that perchance being looked at?

AHarmlessTacoNov 11, 20166 votes

Please don't. I rely on being able to recognize skills to dodge them.... I already have a hard time telling her Q from her E sometimes.

How Do You MetaNov 11, 201614 votes

{quoted}

Please don't. I rely on being able to recognize skills to dodge them.... I already have a hard time telling her Q from her E sometimes.

It's changing the particles AFTER you hit her binding, not before.

AHarmlessTacoNov 11, 20168 votes

O. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

How Do You MetaNov 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

O. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Yes so please put down your pitch fork Teemo and lend me your shrooms.

Jesus is SaviorNov 11, 20161 votes

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows] yes pls

RavenHuskyNov 11, 20161 votes

If you look closer at bound enemies, you'll see an element specific particle effect in addition to the main cage. The cage has to stay the same in all ten forms for clarity reasons.

DivewingNov 12, 20161 votes

And what happens when everyone uses the nature one because it's really difficult to tell?

You have to keep in mind there are effectively 10 skins in 1, and something you do to 1 must be done to the others. Unless a change does NOT impact anything other than aesthetics IN ANY FORM, it's not something that should go through.