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Did the vastaya dictate too much lore?

Knalxz··3 votes·1,195 views

Examples,

Swain is trying to become them, Ionia has tried to captured them, Zed tried to rob them, Rengar is one of them, Uydr's spirits come from them, and they acknowledge the existence of PARALLEL FUCKING UNIVERSES!

That's kind of alot seeing as how it takes away alot from other champions. It doesn't feel like their species exists because someone just had an amazing idea but because someone wanted a way to explain a dozen stories without actually talking about them.

Since League of Legends is focusing more on the legendary status of it's champions then why pull from their source of power and their unique origins? Why not let the champions be their own people with their own stories untied unless grouped with other champions? Ironman, Thor and The Hulk Were heros before they joined the Avengers not after to give an example. How fun do you think it would be if all the heros and villains power came from a singular source?

Imagine if Tony wasn't a genius but X power gave it to him. What if Thor wasn't a god but some guy that the same power just made SUPER SWOLE, What if The Hulk was the exact same thing but green and VERY VERY MAD! They were hero's with unique stories before, is what I'm getting at. They weren't attached to each other in anyway besides living on the same planet and Thor barely even does that.

Swain with this new context without the Vastaya is just some guy. Same with Uydr and Rengar. Having their story revolve around the Vastaya pulls these legends too close together. They should be separate enough and able to breathe without sucking in each others air. It's another reason people have issues with the prequel and sequel Star Stars series, it focuses still on a single aspect of the universe and that's Vader's power. It has the feeling of there being nothing else going on in the entire galaxy with the same applying here.

Let the champions be their own legends them pull them in. Don't pull a DC and just say these guys exist and clump them all together then scream "GIVE US MONEY!", tell a story or twelve.

Edit: there was a part I cut out because I felt the thread was getting too long. That was a mistake so I'm readding in this section to sort of explain what that previous part was.

In other series where there is a central power force, I.E Charka in Naruto or Ki in Dragon Ball the characters would still be stalwart heros with or without that power.

Where in this case Swain, Uydr and Rengar, would be nobodies without the Vastaya's power in the context of this new lore. Without the Vastaya, Swain wouldn't have the will to keep on commanding after is wounds. Uydr wouldn't even be where he is and Rengar wouldn't have his natural instincts allowing him to be such a great hunter.

Not only would none of them exist without this new power but they wouldn't even be the champions that they are.

19 Comments

Papa Andrei6 votes

Swain (or Beatrice) had Vastayan blood. Cool now there is a reason behind the shapeshifting bird demon, other than "fuck it, magic". So theres an improvement. It says nowhere he is trying to become one.

Zed tried to steal their secrts... 100% in character and expected.

Udyr's clan is very distantly related, which adds reason to why they are so intune with nature, and why he travels to Ionia to learn more.

Also parallel universes thing is breaking the fourth wall and just a jab at how the game itself takes place literally nowhere. (So not cannon, just shenanigans.)

Knalxz1 votes

The reason is still "Fuck it magic" because it was explained that the Vastaya are made of 70% magic. Also Raken scolds Swain fro trying to become one of their people.

It wasn't a question if Zed was in character it was the question of them dictating too much lore. How would Zed even know if they had anything worth stealing and even if he did know why would he try to steal it. They're neutral faction defending themselves against the people he's fighting. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

That's part of the point of the thread. Allow the legends to be legends not just powerful species. Aurelion Sol rose to prominence, it wasn't given to him. Uydr is just someone who can mimic the Vastaya's power, like Swain that isn't exactly the stuff of legends it's just someone with a raging boner for half humans.

lastly, I don understand that I was just poking at how crazy ti is that they did that.

Ebonmaw Dragon3 votes

{quoted}

Since League of Legends is focusing more on the legendary status of it's champions then why pull from their source of power and their uniqune origins? Why not let the champions be their own people with their own stories untied unless grouped with other champions? Ironman, Thor and The Hulk Were heros before they joined the Avengers not after to give an example. How fun do you think it would be if all the heros and villains power came from a singular source?

Im not a fan of Marvel but: Vision has his powers thanks to a Infinity Stone, Loki has powers thanks to a Infinity Stone, Dr Strange has powers thanks to a Infinity Stone, Heimdal has powers thanks to a Infinity Stone, Ronan has powers thanks to a Infinity Stone.

The power of 90% of the mutants from X-Men came from the same source... a Mutation in the genes.

... So.... Yeah, i think that can be fun and makes the world feel more cohesive.

Knalxz1 votes

I kind of regret cutting this out of my OP but for your sake I'll add it back in when the forum stops freaking out. There's a bit of a tale with this in the least section of my thread. It wasn't originally going to be my conclusion but i just shorten it down. Sorry to mislead you.

A part I removed because I felt like the thread was getting to long was the section where I mention that even in the case of series where there is a center force of power I.E Charka in Naruto or Ki in Dragon Ball the characters would still be stalwart heros with or without that power.

Where in this case Swain, Uydr and Rengar would be nobodies without the Vastaya's power in the context of this new lore. Without the Vastaya Swain wouldn't have the will to keep on commanding after is wounds. Uydr wouldn't even be where he is and Rengar wouldn't have his natural instincts allowing him to be such a great hunter.

Not only would none of them exist without this new power but they wouldn't even be the champions that they are.

Ebonmaw Dragon2 votes

{quoted}

I kind of regret cutting this out of my OP but for your sake I'll add it back in when the forum stops freaking out. There's a bit of a tale with this in the least section of my thread. It wasn't originally going to be my conclusion but i just shorten it down. Sorry to mislead you.

A part I removed because I felt like the thread was getting to long was the section where I mention that even in the case of series where there is a center force of power I.E Charka in Naruto or Ki in Dragon Ball the characters would still be stalwart heros with or without that power.

Where in this case Swan, Uydr and Rengar wouldn't be nobodies without the Vastaya's power in the context of this new lore. Without the Vastaya Swain wouldn't have the will to keep on commanding after is wounds. Uydr wouldn't even be where he is and Rengar wouldn't have his natural instincts allowing him to be such a great hunter.

Not only would none of them exist without this new power but they wouldn't even be the champions that they are.

Oh i see... however, i dont agree with your points about Swain and Rengar. (Udyr is another case because he has recieved tons of changes in the lore since his release)

The magical powers of Swain have never been really important in the lore, what really defines him is his power of leadership and strategy, that is not something related with the Vastaya.

What really differentiates Rengar from other champions is not that he is a "creature from an unknown race" or his "natural instincts", what defines him is the fact that he was raised by a human that taught him to be a hunter. He is not a beast controlled by his natural instincts like Warwick, Rengar is a patient and smart hunter... The only difference between now and what we knew about him 2 weeks ago is that now we know his race.

Knalxz1 votes

Swain is certainly a man of tactics but remember, a big part about his character was being wounded in war. He went on because, like always he had a plan and that was his birdform. Without Beatrice Swain wouldn't of gone much further, his wounds were so great that there was a chance modern medicine couldn't heal them. He could of been crippled for life as he is now, the only thing giving him power is his shapeshifting because in Noxus you are either the strongest or a tale of how someone else gained their power. Without the Vastaya Swain would of certainly lost his position in Noxus.

In the case of Rengar the issues arises with him being human. If he was then the hunter would have no reason to raise him. He likely would of returned to society asking people who's child was he. The hunter knew that a creature with the ability to learn and live like a human and their ability to hunt using their natural powers was unstoppable. Not to mention that the curiosity revolving around Rengar's species was apart of his legend. In the sense that he was Hunter Jesus(lol) came out of nowhere and was the best. With him being apart of a species each with physical traits of animals of drastic degrees there could be thousands of Rengar like Vastaya out there each with superior hunter skills. Since apparently they can carry over several traits of animals. There is like an alpha Vastaya making Rengar even less unique.

Ebonmaw Dragon2 votes

{quoted}

Swain is certainly a man of tactics but remember, a big part about his character was being wounded in war. He went on because, like always he had a plan and that was his birdform. Without Beatrice Swain wouldn't of gone much further, his wounds were so great that there was a chance modern medicine couldn't heal them. He could of been crippled for life as he is now, the only thing giving him power is his shapeshifting because in Noxus you are either the strongest or a tale of how someone else gained their power. Without the Vastaya Swain would of certainly lost his position in Noxus.

In the case of Rengar the issues arises with him being human. If he was then the hunter would have no reason to raise him. He likely would of returned to society asking people who's child was he. The hunter knew that a creature with the ability to learn and live like a human and their ability to hunt using their natural powers was unstoppable. Not to mention that the curiosity revolving around Rengar's species was apart of his legend. In the sense that he was Hunter Jesus(lol) came out of nowhere and was the best. With him being apart of a species each with physical traits of animals of drastic degrees there could be thousands of Rengar like Vastaya out there each with superior hunter skills. Since apparently they can carry over several traits of animals. There is like an alpha Vastaya making Rengar even less unique.

Im sorry, but, i cant much difference.

The difference between "old swain" and "swain now" is that, instead of a Demon Bird, he got powers from a Vastayan Bird or something like that... We dont know yet, in fact, as far as i remember it was never confirmed that he gained the powers from the Bird in first place.

We always knew that Rengar was from a race of creatures, he was never a single being like Twitch, sure, now we know the name of his race, SO WHAT? Being a hunter is NOT something that he gained from the Vastaya, that was taught to him by a human, he uses human-made weapons and tactics to hunt, no other Vastaya does that. He doesnt even need magic like the rest of his kind... he IS the best because of what he learned from his the humans, not some magical thing.

Knalxz1 votes

Old Swain was wrapped in mystery but what I've listed above I only spoke from the interactions with Swain from Vastaya. So far those voice lines are canon and swain is someone attempting to become one of their people. That isn't the stuff of legends, that's just sad.

Again it's not based around his teachings but if he was human Rengar as a character wouldn't' exist. he only exists because he is a beast man. IF he was human he'd of likely never been raised by the Hunter and his skills wouldn't be able to surpass a normal man from his beast like nature. Since he is apart of an ever evolving species Rengar not longer has an identity. He's just a beast with knives, hardly something worth of a legend.

Ebonmaw Dragon1 votes

{quoted}

Old Swain was wrapped in mystery but what I've listed above I only spoke from the interactions with Swain from Vastaya. So far those voice lines are canon and swain is someone attempting to become one of their people. That isn't the stuff of legends, that's just sad.

Again it's not based around his teachings but if he was human Rengar as a character wouldn't' exist. he only exists because he is a beast man. IF he was human he'd of likely never been raised by the Hunter and his skills wouldn't be able to surpass a normal man from his beast like nature. Since he is apart of an ever evolving species Rengar not longer has an identity. He's just a beast with knives, hardly something worth of a legend.

He HAS BEEN A BEAST WITH KNIVES SINCE HIS RELEASE, as i said, that is not important, what is important is that he is a hunter, the best hunter, it wouldnt matter if he were a human, a yordle, a cat or a plant. We have TONS of human characters, with your logic, all those champions are not special because they are humans... But guess what? The race of the champion is not what defines his identity.

You are just assuming that the "father" of Rengar would not train him if he were human, but the fact is that he trained him... Heck, it would be even more impressive to find a human child living in the jungle alone than a cat.

... and about Swain, that is speculation, we dont know how did he got the blood of the Vastaya.

Risk of Fate2 votes

existence of PARALLEL FUCKING UNIVERSES!

This is what we call an "easy way out" to explain blind pick.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

G FUCKING G

GreenLore2 votes

The thing is that while it can be jarring if too much is explained by one thing,the opposite can also happen.

I mean it is one thing if 1 guy gets super powers due to a lab accident,but if there are dozens of them?Then it starts to become rather unbelievable.

Same with the sentient animals here who just happen to have been granted sentience by magic.

Knalxz1 votes

Yeah that's exactly what i was saying. Too much focus on this one group feels like things are too clustered when previous it was very free and open.

it doesn't feel like someone opened a window more like they put a brick wall in front of one.

GreenLore1 votes

Yeah,but before it felt like too many coincidences that just happened around roughly the same time,which can be even more jarring. Especially if Riot wants to introduce more animal champs in the future,then it'd get really old really fast to hear stuff like "oh he was changed by magic" or "he is part of another race that will likely never be explored in detail" over and over again.

TyrekGoldenspear2 votes

The question can be applied the other way as well.

Do humans contribute too much to the lore?

Skylimetoon1 votes

"and they acknowledge the existence of PARALLEL FUCKING UNIVERSES! " Champions die over and over again on the rift and they know they die. (like what galio/ivern say after comming back) what they are talking about is probably summoners rift. Seeming that most people that die dont come back (minus shadow isles) "Ironman, Thor and The Hulk Were heros before they joined the Avengers" The hulk gets mad and smashes things, since when is that being a hero? "Swain with this new context without the Vastaya is just some guy. Same with Uydr and Rengar." Vastaya were ancient w/e's that fused with some of the humans and made them hybrid that's their background. Swain doesn't even really have a background and that doesnt explain anything for him. even before this he was just some guy that could transform into a bird demon in a cult or w/e called the black rose. Udyr didnt have much story to begin with but if there was a magic that transformed humans into animals its base being in the original creatures the vastaya originated from is likely. But his story is still weak it doesnt explain anything. if anything they probably arent going to do anything about his story or swains, its been a long ass time i doubt they would chose this 1 point as a story highlight for them. Also rengar is a pridestalker that's his story. He was raised to be a hunter so he is still different than others. The vastaya are all unique in behavior and looks Rengar isn't just a copy of others. If he met another of his race he would still be superior in fighting because that's how he was raised. This doesnt take away story if anything it's just a story about the vastaya origins. Rengar udyr and swain have existed for a long time so even if their powers are based on vastaya ancestory they probably dont know or care.

Wrathof3001 votes

This is like saying a shotgun and an revolver are the same because they shoot bullets. In other words, its not about where their power comes from, it about how and why they got them and how and why they use them. The Swain and Udyr parts are just speculations atm, but even if it turns out to be true they are still completely different people and adds an opportunity for these 2 to interact, with each other and others in interesting ways.

Knalxz1 votes

I'm going to make an edit because there was a section of my thread that i cut out because i found it was getting too long and didn't want to drone people on but long story short, this.

_A part I removed because I felt like the thread was getting to long was the section where I mention that even in the case of series where there is a center force of power I.E Charka in Naruto or Ki in Dragon Ball the characters would still be stalwart heros with or without that power.

Where in this case Swain, Uydr and Rengar, would be nobodies without the Vastaya's power in the context of this new lore. Without the Vastaya Swain wouldn't have the will to keep on commanding after is wounds. Uydr wouldn't even be where he is and Rengar wouldn't have his natural instincts allowing him to be such a great hunter.

Not only would none of them exist without this new power but they wouldn't even be the champions that they are._

Wrathof3001 votes

Like I said its more important in the different ways that they use their powers opposed to whether they are all from the same medium. Like devil fruits in one piece, everyone had to eat a devil fruit to get their powers but their power are completely different and without the fruit they would be regular people, in most cases. I understand that you're looking at it from a speed force point of view, where the speed force is the source but ultimately all the speedsters are just clones of each other. In Rengar's case they're just giving an explanation why he is a beast man. Swain and Udyr are just speculation and any twist could be added from here on out, and it may be even more complex that just having vastayan blood, in the case of these 2 champs at least.

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