The Morgana VGU - A promise almost surely broken (non-gameplay)

Wulfston·Jan 31, 2019·9 votes·6,018 views

I've spent a lot of time with Morg. I'm not any good with her anymore, but I know her intimately as a champ. I have a lot of love for her. Keep that in mind as I talk, because this is an appeal to treat her well first and foremost.

So. Let me preface with this - I am a femme lesbian. I like women, I like hot women, I like being a hot woman in my games. Morg is pretty good at most of those things, if you dig the Goth Bimbo look (and I do). But what Morg isn't good at, and what Riot has promised, and what I am going to be so disappointed by almost assured failure to deliver on, is being a "Fallen Angel experience".

Current Morg is not scary or unsettling. Her voice lines are milquetoast and whiny. She has no presence, let alone the presence and menace of a dark angel. She is a cute emo girl.

Riot is BAD at intimidating women. Their buffest gal, Illaoi, is friendly and kinda matronly. Elise is a latex D/s fetish with no genuine menace. Evelyn is meant to be sensual, not scary, and that's... Well, that's what they tried to do, not what you get. I could keep going, but bluntly, there's just not a genuinely scary woman in league. Not a one.

I hear Urgot, I hear Sion, and I hear unsettling, scary, intimidating hate-machines. They are creepy, they are evil (and not generic evil. Urgot in particular has a messed up, amoral worldview that just SELLS it so well). There are genuinely scary dudes in League. Riot CAN do intimidating. But they don't for their women.

"BE NOT AFRAID" - Even ascendant angels are beings of such awe and alien nature that they have to greet people by stating that they're not something to be afraid of, because they understand themselves as terrifying. So what is a fallen angel? What terror does it strike in the hearts of mortals?

Simply put, Riot CANNOT deliver on the "Fallen Angel" fantasy if they don't make the new Morgana terrifying. Hot? Sure. But I want to hear things I don't want to hear, dark speech and thousands of whispering voices. I want to see her rise up and extend her tattered and bloody wings as she goes B, shackled to the tainted soil of Runeterra, bound against escape. I want her Soul Shackles to tear at her enemies as they flee, like they just hit the end of a tether hooked to their flesh at full sprint. I want a terrifying sadist. A monster.

Based on the tiny bits of art that were visible... That's not what we're getting. And I'm heartbroken.

I guess Morg was right. I DO know pain.

47 Comments

AbiwonKenabiJan 31, 20197 votes

I don't know, I personally find Camille intimidating. Not necessarily in the traditional creepy sense, but she's definitely intimidating.

Evelynn I thought they did a good job on too. Coming from straight grill, I think she looks pretty sexy and talks pretty dirty. It might be more male-oriented though, I'll give you that.

That said, I would like Morg to go in a different direction than you. I don't think she should be creepy or gross, but I agree she should be intimidating. I'd prefer for her to be an intimidating and sympathetic extremist, a mirror to hold up to Kayle. But that's my personal hope for her.

She's means something to me, she's pretty much the only reason my boyfriend still plays this game with me. I hope they do her justice.

WulfstonJan 31, 20193 votes

Camille is intimidating, for sure. She's calm, professional and stern in a way that says powerful (unlike most of the league ladies). But she's not scary - and she's not meant to be. She's a tactical operator operating tactically. It's different.

Ev missed all my marks, and I like a lot of "male gaze-y" stuff myself, but that's just preference. She could be hot to some, but I wouldn't ever rate her as scary.

Meanwhile, I don't want "gross" at all. She's a fallen angel, not a zombie or whatever - I want scary and hot. That mix is the most powerful mix.

That's really it - no strong objections to any of this, but it's about scary. About dark. She's a dark angel. She should be dark, you know?

AbiwonKenabiJan 31, 20192 votes

Ok, I think I misunderstood your post. Intimidating and scary in a threatening villain sort of way is something I can get behind. I think mostly I just want Kayle to be the same: intimidating and scary in her own way to match Morg's. And Morg can totally be hot, I'd argue she was originally supposed to be if not for the fact that she's a freakin' walking tent and old as hell model-wise.

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

Big ups for repping for Kayle. She's not my focus, but I'd be happy to see her treated well. I want to fear the consequences of not meeting her righteous standards.

Moody PJan 31, 20195 votes

"Smile child or I'll shove your jaw into your brain"

this is considered friendly?

WulfstonJan 31, 20192 votes

Comparatively? Yes. She's doing it to help you, the same idea as Urgot but much less menacing, much kinder. It's tough love, rather than trying to traumatize you into a hard, hateful predator. She wants you to survive, he wants you to change.

It's not intimidating. At all. It's motherly. It's also about the beginning and end of her voice lines that have any edge.

Let's not split hairs here, basically. You'd really categorize her as menacing? Because I've met menacing women. She's a pussycat.

Moody PJan 31, 20192 votes

I don't remember my mom threatening to bash me, funny thing

WulfstonJan 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Let's not split hairs here, basically.

GreenKnightJan 31, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=idrGEJZY,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-31T01:16:02.552+0000)

"Smile child or I'll shove your jaw into your brain"

this is considered friendly?

Depends. By 40k standards that's pretty lenient

Madjack01Jan 31, 20194 votes

Hmm, was it ever officially stated that Morg was supposed to be menacing or intimidating?

I always thought of her more as the vengeful type that's full of spite, yet also has her own ideals.

I mean the whole fallen angel theme gives gigantic room for interpretation which can go miles away from what intimidating is supposed to be.

For example fallen angel can potentially mean that she's still beautifully angel like with corrupted wings while just being disobedient to whatever higher power fits the lore.

WulfstonJan 31, 20192 votes

Riot has been slammed for their attitudes to women in their company, and it reflects in their designs of women. That's why, when I see a "dark" character redesign, now that Riot makes better "dark" designs, and there are no scary women in the roster, the lack of official intent to make her into what her concept says she should be is a condemnation, rather than an excuse.

The idea that her concept should be watered down to mere disobedience or petulance also plays to that. I want her concept to have weight, to have meaning, to be committed to. Half-measures like that are flavorless in a way that doesn't allow her to be explored, to have a real personality.

Madjack01Jan 31, 20195 votes

{quoted}

The idea that her concept should be watered down to mere disobedience or petulance also plays to that. I want her concept to have weight, to have meaning, to be committed to. Half-measures like that are flavorless in a way that doesn't allow her to be explored, to have a real personality.

Ah but this is heavily opinionated and frankly wrong. There are terrific stories about doubt, hatred, enforcing your own path, regret, balancing old ways with new ones, escapism, taking shortcuts, proving yourself, lashing out, justice, betrayal, revenge and so on that take their inspiration from something simple as being disobedient and its associated factors (for example a few iterations of our very own devil are based on this). There is a plethora of potential ways here to develop a character's personality, but I guess that just isn't your flavor when it comes to Morg.

Tbh I'm in for a darker version of her too. Though I'd love to see that dark side more through cunning cruelty which gets enforced through ice cold dark arts. But again, the dark fallen angel concept can be interpreted in many ways.

I agree that Riot has missed a lot of marks when it come to their female roster, especially the darker side (Yet I also think that about a large part of the male champs).

To be fair though, I like to write myself and I always found that writing dark female characters has a lot more pitfalls than with their male counterparts. But that might be just my own problem.

WulfstonJan 31, 20191 votes

A lot of those I'd describe as "renegade" archetypes. Keep in mind that canonically, Morg has been corrupt for a fairly long time. That might change, but then they need a relatively new story device that will need to tie into a bunch of champions, and those eggs seem to be in the Demacian,Noxian and Ionian baskets right now.

Now, to your credit, I definitely would enjoy a rebel/renegade angel, but I don't think that's Morg's narrative role. A third, younger angel caught between the pull of the two sisters would be AWESOME. But again, I don't think it's for Morg.

I also have to question how cunning and the dark arts are going to be represented meaningfully in character personification, except as sadism and violence. Sure, she's no brute, it's finesse. But how does that preclude... sickness. A genuinely warped self? A good character story should be apparent in the character, not in the lore block. If you need the lore to really "get" what a character is about, then your characterization work isn't successful.

And yeah, it honestly probably just is your problem. That's not a dig - People are bad at writing perspectives they don't have. Riot is notoriously understaffed on women, a good deal because of their work environment. It's the same deal - they don't have a good range of women's perspectives, and the ones they do are fairly minimized. It's sort of the point of this thread - I'm telling them they have yet to deliver a woman in this style that I like as a woman, and that the majority of their women miss their marks.

OleandervineFeb 1, 20191 votes

The thing that you're taking issue with is a matter of opinion - an opinion that doesn't even have a concrete ideal behind it. A "fallen angel" is not required to look intimidating, or even hellish or unsettling. In fact, this is one of the statues in a cathedral of the primo fallen angel, Lucifer: https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/LY9aqdC1.jpg So unsettling. So very unsettling that the Catholic church had it removed and replaced with a similar statue in a different pose because women in the congregation were sexually aroused by it. In fact, I have a great deal of difficulty bringing to mind any kind of fallen angel I've seen in any media that isn't some edgy object of lust. They're not generally scary or intimidating by concept. They're typically still beautiful creatures with broken wings and an aura of tragedy or sadness. So where you're getting that Morgana should be some monstrosity is a mystery.

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

Hey. You're arguing against a point I'm not making.

I like women. I like hot women. I lead with this. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say it in this thread, but I'm not arguing against hot, and you clearly didn't read very closely that you're coming at me like this.

I'm arguing FOR scary.

And come on. You're going to cite classic art as relevant to Runeterra? The dark forces of Runeterra are from DeviantArt, not a cathederal. Talk about a lack of concrete ideals - work within the framework of the world, please. Nothing is this staid in... Maybe all of Runeterra.

OleandervineFeb 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hey. You're arguing against a point I'm not making.

I like women. I like hot women. I lead with this. I don't know how many times I'm going to have to say it in this thread, but I'm not arguing against hot, and you clearly didn't read very closely that you're coming at me like this.

I'm arguing FOR scary.

And come on. You're going to cite classic art as relevant to Runeterra? The dark forces of Runeterra are from DeviantArt, not a cathederal. Talk about a lack of concrete ideals - work within the framework of the world, please. Nothing is this staid in... Maybe all of Runeterra.

Yes, and I'm pointing out that the fallen angel trope isn't typically scary, and Morgana more specifically has never been scary. She's a tragic character to a degree, and she's become influenced by her dark magic, but she's not scary because she's still got a lot of sympathizing qualities about her. Her entire arc was about her turning to dark magic to fight the enemies of her people, but she still deeply cared for her people - which is why it embittered her when Kayle shunned her and branded her an enemy. Furthermore, in the past lore, Morgana set up an illegal bakery in Noxus, and was partially the reason how Lux learned Binding Light (by studying Morgana's Dark Binding), and while it's not cannon anymore, it does show us a Morgana who's not scary and instead wants to fit into the world since she's far from her home.

WulfstonFeb 3, 20191 votes

Yeah. She's never been scary. That's MY point. None of the women have been scary. Morg has the makings to be scary. I would like at least ONE scary woman. Huge ask, right?

"Fallen Angels aren't typically scary" ...Yeah, that's why Lucifer and Satan are supposed to be the most terrifying dark forces in the Christian faith, heralds of doom, makers of discord, tragedy and would-be architects of the fall of man and Christ. It's why the horror-thriller "Fallen" with Denzel Washington was made. It's why they're frequently used in Black Metal, and there are troves of dark artwork about them that is both beautiful, but also morbid and terrifying.

...Also keep in mind that at that time in lore, Noxus was explicitly the most evil faction, and are still pretty damn heavily Nazi themed. "When Morg was a Nazi..." is not a good statement.

Like... Yeah, there's an argument to be made against me here. But it's massively weakened by having no-one else who fills this role for women champs. I am saying this works, this is a chance to start affecting a change in League for the better, that it will feel more fulfilling to a wider range of players. You're arguing the semantics of why you can justify not doing this within lore, but where's your argument for not doing this considering the real-world environment and the completely justified criticisms of Riots approach to women?

Even if I said to you "Hey, you're right! That's how the lore is written!" (and I'm not) I can still then say to you that it's entirely made up, and there's no laws or rules against changing that lore and how it's written, especially in the face of criticism in the media and by the women in the playerbase. The lore was written by people who've been slammed for being sexist. So, if you think this is incompatible with the lore, that just means we should change the lore.

We deserve scary women. We deserve female power fantasies. I deserve these things.

End of the day, you're arguing for status quo. And that's drawing fire for Riot. Change has to start somewhere in the game, and I want it to be my goth bimbo dark angel.

JenivieJan 31, 20193 votes

yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes

WulfstonJan 31, 20191 votes

[sg-jinx] Right?

Moonboy65Jan 31, 20193 votes

Kalista ?????

WulfstonJan 31, 20192 votes

Sad, not intimidating.

ModRowanstarJan 31, 20193 votes

I think some of the women are intimidating (Katarina, Rek Sai, and even Camille, Lissandra) but its a different style. I would love seeing VGU Morgana sticking to her dark angel theme.

WulfstonJan 31, 20191 votes

I don't see that in Kat, but I'm not talking about a Kat rework, so hey. If you think so.

Rek Sai is a cop-out in my books, though, just because she's animal in a way that she likely doesn't have a concept of the construct of gender, and her sex is fundamentally alien. A creature that produces fewer, more energy-costly gametes as opposed to more plentiful, less energy-costly gametes might be categorizable as female - but she's not a woman in the sense that we're talking about women. She has none of the trappings of womanhood.

She's not really representative of a strong, intimidating and scary woman as such.

Camille and Lis count, though to me Lis lacks personality in a way that I don't buy into her menace. She has a voice effect and some generic lines. She doesn't create a narrative of her values and intent in a way that makes me fear what goes on in her mind. Ice mage wants cold world. Big woop.

ModRowanstarFeb 13, 20191 votes

ah i understand. you want a villainous terrifying female who has depth and whose values are scary because they almost make sense. Would Sejuani fall here?

Chembaron YamadaJan 31, 20193 votes

Even if Morgana doesn't turn out to be terrifying, that doesn't forbid Riot to do something like that in the future. I am still hoping that we get a creepy, Chemtech augmented chembaroness in the future. <3

PyronaaxaFeb 2, 20193 votes

Who said a Fallen angel is supposed to be intimidating? A fallen angel could mean an angel who rebels, fallen from grace, and ruined wings.

This is a matter of opinion.

WulfstonFeb 3, 20191 votes

It sure is a matter of opinion! A gay woman's opinion!

But hey, when a company is getting dragged for it's treatment and presentation of women, and has an opportunity to reconceptualize one of them in a more fully complete way that engages with them as a power to be feared and not just eyecandy (though, again, love me some goth tiddies) so as to put them on a more comparable place beside their male counterparts... Maybe they should do that? Especially when this character is one who's theme gives them a lot of potential room to be evil and powerful, on a divine, cosmic scale?

Like, the point is that Riot's "supposed to" has typically meant that women are supposed to be for masturbating to, as opposed to being a female power fantasy (that you can masturbate to, I guess).

So... Maybe this is an opinion worth paying attention to? Because I am a woman telling them how to be less sexist whilst still being sexy, so everybody wins?

Like, why is her being worthy of fear SUCH a BIG F'n DEAL? Seriously. It's suspicious.

Pale MaskJan 31, 20192 votes

[deleted]

WulfstonJan 31, 20192 votes

Don't worry. That wasn't a call for change. Just pointing out she's not scary.

Shiny black spiderqueens are perfect gifts to all mankind.

ZyraniumFeb 1, 20192 votes

Why is this downvoted to hell ?

I see Morgana, I like ! And you made some great points, I liked that post thanks [slayer-jinx-catface]

But when I think about creepy female characters, Elise comes to my mind as she embodies both the beauty & the terror as she is capable of changing her appearence into a ravenous giant spider beast, I know a friend of mine who is arachnophobic and she honestly just can't play League when she sees Elise either in her team, or in the enemy's, everyone has its own interpretations of what creepy & terrifying is.

Evelynn falls also into this category, and as an Eve main myself, the duality between both beautiful & terrifying as she is a shapeshifting demon, is one of the thing that really attracts me, she is absolutely scary to me, the beastly & dreadful scream she makes during her ultimate is one of the most terrifying sound Riot has given to us.

RekSai is a primal sand shark void queen monster, also

Kalista Is another type of scary, as she is a straight up reference to the ghostly Celtic Banshees who were known to be heralds of an imminent death

But I agree with you, we need more monstuous looking female characters and I feel that we missed opportunities with both Kaisa & Neeko

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

Appreciate the support. Chances are this is downvoted to hell because honestly most people have misread what I want. They can't imagine beauty and horror existing side by side, and are reacting essentially with "But mah hot wimminz".

That said, I don't much agree with most of these.

Elise - Your friend is arachnophobic. Phobias are by definition irrational fears. Outside of the context, she's maybe intimidating. But a stick-thin, conventionally attractive humanoid has to do work in her characterization to make her scary. And I don't think she does - Riot made her talk about being a spider, rather than talk like she has the mind of a spider. She's simply not alien enough. Her beast form is theoretically scary, but is that a scary woman or a scary spider? I'd say more the latter. Maybe if she was ovipositing eggs into her victims, causing them to stumble towards their team as mindless zombies whilst they're eaten alive from the inside, before exploding into a swarm of spiders... But elsewise, eh.

Evelynn - I've hit on why I don't think Ev is scary. Copy paste, go! "Riot was afraid to have her act in a way that would fully shatter the illusion of sensuality she was supposed to be presenting. There's no sharp turn that leaves you feeling sick and scared, like you just walked into a deadly trap. And that's literally her whole deal. (Also her hair is so dumb.)" ...I do appreciate the point about the shriek, though. I think it's a little quiet, a little short, but you're right. That is a point in her favor.

RekSai - Go, again! "Rek Sai is a cop-out in my books, though, just because she's animal in a way that she likely doesn't have a concept of the construct of gender, and her sex is fundamentally alien. A creature that produces fewer, more energy-costly gametes as opposed to more plentiful, less energy-costly gametes might be categorizable as female - but she's not a woman in the sense that we're talking about women. She has none of the trappings of womanhood.

She's not really representative of a strong, intimidating and scary woman as such."

Fair credit though, now that you've mentioned it. Her scream is nice, and the bit about her I really like.

Kalista - Kalista is intimidating. Stern, driven, motivated. She's also quite sad, and ghostly looking. But there's no horror to it, no fear, no unsettling otherness to her. She's banshee themed in the same way the X-man is - tangentially. Where is the loud, in-your-ear whisper that she's coming for YOU when you respawn, because you lead her into an ambush by facechecking that bush? Where are the unsettling shrieks, the inhuman movements? She has clear, human motivations. She looks human, if a bit blue. She moves like a human, sounds like a human. She's as creepy as a Dranei is.

I do agree they missed opportunities with Kaisa , though less so with Neeko - All the Vastayans are chesty, rake-thin little slices of sex. Neeko is less that, but still roughly what I expected. Kai'Sa though... Yeah. She lived in an alien horrorscape, why the hell is she so well-adjusted? And likewise, living clothing is a well established kink/horror tool. I understand that fighting against a corrupting force that she willingly consorts with is... Tired, in the world of League (Kayne, Varus), but with her it's not a separate entity. It's not a conversation. It could have been slips into predatory madness - Kai'Sa having a passive that actually CC's her when she makes a champion kill within X units, but during which she's resistant to damage and regenerates, and after which she gains permanent stacks of power-scaling. This would look like her moving towards the kill, and feasting on their organs. You know, like a survival hunter/void monster.

Jeddy017Jan 31, 20191 votes

Riot is BAD at intimidating women. There are genuinely scary dudes in League. Riot CAN do intimidating. But they don't for their women.

Well then, what are good examples of intimidating women in other sources of media?

OleandervineFeb 1, 20191 votes

Well, even though I disagree with the OP's points, I will show some examples.

Disney has done well with this topic: Lady Tremaine https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*AEtSqxy_GST-t8Gscsd6iA.jpeg

Cruella De Vil https://www.slashfilm.com/wp/wp-content/images/Cruella-de-Vil-spinoff.jpg

Maleficent https://i0.wp.com/www.caps.media/195/9-sleeping-beauty/full/sleeping-beauty-disneyscreencaps.com-819.jpg

The Sanderson Sisters https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/disneywar/images/2/2e/Sanderson-blog5.jpg

And now for some non-disneys:

Roald Dahl has good ones: Agatha Trunchbull https://lucysenglish.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/matilda-trunchbull.jpg

Aunts Spiker and Sponge http://c8.alamy.com/comp/K38PC8/james-and-the-giant-peach-joanna-lumley-as-aunt-spiker-miriam-margolyes-K38PC8.jpg

The Grand High Witch https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/actors-special-effects-makeup-before-after-218-5a15757d441bc__700.jpg

Others: Queen Beryl https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3SlP5nzZUCU/hqdefault.jpg

Yubaba https://jackhenseleit.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/yubaba-2.png?w=545&h=306

The Cloud of Darkness https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dissidia/images/8/88/CloudofDarkness.jpg

Kreia https://i.ytimg.com/vi/csC4T1xAwlU/maxresdefault.jpg

And so on, and so on.

MeilinIIFeb 1, 20192 votes

Now that you mention it, add a skirt to cloud of darkness and you're in the right realm to start making Morgana the terrifying fallen angel she deserves to be.

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

Oops, replied to the wrong one.

So, thanks for the effort. But most of these aren't examples, to me. The majority are simply repulsive to male standards, with little actual fearsomeness. Hence so many older women, or butch types. Most are poorly written and characterized, with weak, easy-to-grasp motivations. They're not fear inspiring. They just look bad (not that older women or butches look bad by nature. These are just characters who weaponize that against women).

Most of these are great examples of what not to do, TBH. Which I hate to say, because you were trying to be helpful.

OleandervineFeb 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Oops, replied to the wrong one.

So, thanks for the effort. But most of these aren't examples, to me. The majority are simply repulsive to male standards, with little actual fearsomeness. Hence so many older women, or butch types. Most are poorly written and characterized, with weak, easy-to-grasp motivations. They're not fear inspiring. They just look bad (not that older women or butches look bad by nature. These are just characters who weaponize that against women).

Most of these are great examples of what not to do, TBH. Which I hate to say, because you were trying to be helpful.

The person I replied to asked for women who are intimidating in media, and every single character I listed was written as an intimidating woman. Some are simply written (that's not to say they're poorly written at all though), but some are much more involved. Every one of these women is intimidating, not only to the heroes of the story, but to others within the story as well. Additionally, they don't "look bad" and weaponize it against women. These women have some degree of power in their lives and use THAT against others, not their looks. Please don't confuse these women's power granted to them by their stories as them weaponizing their looks against others, because that's simply wrong.

WulfstonFeb 3, 20191 votes

...What?

No. I am saying that the intentional presentation of these women outside of conventional attractive standards is used against THEM to code them as villains. It's a huge part of what makes them evil - it's LITERALLY the plot drive of the Sanderson sisters, for example.

I'm saying these are mostly misogynistic, not... That they... Hurt people by being ugly(?!). Like, seriously, still not sure how you got there.

Tell me why the majority of these women NEED to be presented this way? What purpose does it serve, what plot device does it further? And go on, remove the ugliness, and simply look at what they want, and tell me how scary they are.

(Haven't seen the Aristocats since I was like four, so I can't comment on Lady Tremaine. Also not planning on doing them all.)

Cruella De Vil - oh no, she wants a high-fashion coat, and she's going to kill some puppies. But that's just cultural squick; pigs are as smart or smarter than dogs, and we slaughter them, eat them, wear their skin, make sports equipment out of their organs. It's not nice, but it's not all that evil. So, she conspires to some low level theft (What, about a thousand bucks for a purebred dalmatian puppy?) by her standards of wealth when she can't get what she wants - in other words, she throws her wealth around for power. That's SO mundane, and so paltry compared to what we've seen the wealthy and powerful do. She's a low level villain. And if you watch the animation, it's running frames of monstrous APPEARANCE.

Maleficent - If we cleave to tradition, she's spurned at an open invitation party (Which is a big no-no is medieval society. Parties and festivals like that are an expected duty of rulers, and failure to provide has led to full on riots and rebel actions). She's told she's not welcome entirely because of her appearance, so she says "F you, here's a curse, I was just trying to be cool." Not a villain at all. If we cleave to Disney, well, surprise - she's got real and valid beef with the court (Maleficent the movie establishes this) and her "Evil" is literally just the same "F you" as before. Not a villain. And again, what purpose does her appearance serve? Seriously, why has she gotta look that way?

The Sandersons - Again. Their plot point is that they don't want to become old hags. Their looks are WHY they're evil. SUPER bad example.

Agatha Trunchbull - FINALLY someone genuinely malevolent! And her stature is actually USED for something. And her appearance is potentially justifiable, because she cares about practicality, and doesn't engage in that sort of self care. Not sure why she needs to have an unsightly mole or eat like a horse, though. Almost like the justifications for her looks are a work of fiction, and the writer decided WHY she was ugly entirely to justify her being ugly, to sell her evilness. But if that were cute, Miss Honey would be soft and traditionally feminine and- Oh. Misogyny.

Aunt Spiker and Sponge - Their names are literally "Too angular" and "Fatty". Come on.

The Grand High Witch - An ugly woman (not performing social-standard femininity) who hates children (not performing social-standard femininity) masquerading as a vampy femme-fatal (The most heinous of crimes, leading men on. Also, this is probably thinly veiled transphobia). Also, why does she actually want to do any of this? Ah right, by all outwardly discernable appearances, her evil brings her sexual gratification. Ain't nothing more evil than a woman who likes sex, right? ...Nope, misogyny.

Queen Beryl gets a pass, Yubaba is complicated but also kind of traditional folk-y, so I don't really want to get into it, don't know The Cloud of Darkness, and only played the first hour of Kotor 2 before it permacrashed, haven't gone back to it yet.

But seriously. There's a lot of really BAD examples in here.

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

The Bloody Countess (Fictional, sexy representations preferred) - Literally bathing in the fresh-draining blood of virgins to stay beautiful, often with horrified future victims chained and left to watch. Themes: Horror in beauty, sadism, intimidation and delight in terror.

Unnamed creature (VHS, "I Like You") - Hot as hell. Literal man-eating predator. Themes: Not-what-they-seem, horror in beauty, animalistic violence

"Baby" Firefly (The Devil's Rejects) - Hot as hell, unrelenting psychopath who delights in suffering. Themes: Sadism, mind-games, eroticism linked with horror.

I honestly don't need too many more than that. Because these are enough to illustrate what I'm talking about - very conventionally attractive women with truly alien and unsettling minds. The way they think about things is what makes them scary. Likewise, they're poignantly aware of the male gaze, and use their sexuality in partnership with their violence - effectively taking something personal and safe and warping it in front of you. They stick a knife in your vulnerability and show you who's really been in charge the whole time.

Relatedly, this is why Eve is such a hard miss for me - Riot was afraid to have her act in a way that would fully shatter the illusion of sensuality she was supposed to be presenting. There's no sharp turn that leaves you feeling sick and scared, like you just walked into a deadly trap. And that's literally her whole deal. But that's an aside, and not really relevant. (Also her hair is so dumb.)

Edit: Forgot to correct - SCARY is what I want. Intimidating is related, but different.

Tesla EffectJan 31, 20191 votes

Its obvious Riot doesnt want to make clearly ugly champions, much less so for wahmen champs.

ShiwahFeb 1, 20192 votes

[deleted]

Tesla EffectFeb 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Urgot.

New Urgot is not ugly, he is bada** . Old Urgot was ugly.

ShiwahFeb 1, 20192 votes

[deleted]

Jeddy017Feb 1, 20192 votes

Just because he's not meant to be attractive, that doesn't means he's ugly. He's in the middle ground on attractive scale.

New Urgot isn't really hideous or visually repulsive. What's left of his human body looks relatively normal without any sort of deformation, scarring or blemish. Even his machine parts aren't ugly, they appear well made. No bumps, dents or cracks. It was design all nice & symmetrical. It's perfectly painted with no signs rust or paint coming off. Urgot is more like some cool & awesome supervillian now than a hideous Frankenstein-like creature with crazy amalgamation machine & man. Is he scary or intimidating? Yeah. But ugly? Not to me, he looks cool is you ask me.

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

Psst. I don't want her to be ugly. I want her to be scary. The two (scary+hot) are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, often go hand in hand.

Feel free to continue talking Urgot or whatever, but just pointing out that this isn't the point.

Jeddy017Feb 2, 20192 votes

Well, I wasn't even trying to talk about Morg or your point in 1st the place here.

WulfstonFeb 2, 20191 votes

Not @ you specifically, @ this conversation sub-thread and it's start point.

Back to talking Urgot - And by the way, he's ugly. Not the ugliest, but he's an ugly boy.

Deathly pale (not smooth, milk pale but corpse pale), with unpleasant scar tissue (his face, scarification is cool re; his arms), crows feet, frown lines and sunken, beady eyes. Heavily implied corpse-bloat belly, and ears set... Wrong, alongside his hunched gorilla posture.

Mundo is ugly (but maybe slightly too "monster" to count). ~~Drunk Wario~~ ~~Professor Robotnik~~ Gragas is ugly (and not because he's heavy).~~ Ghost Lamprey~~ Karthus is ugly.

A lot of very plain looking dudes in League, too. Not many who are outright pretty.