Pyke, and what's wrong with him (mostly from a support's perspective)

Wulfston·6/13/2018, 8:00:40 PM·17 votes·10,971 views

Unless it's thematic issues, like the Aatrox rework currently blowing things up, I think waiting to see how a champ plays after their introduction/reworks/etc is just good form. But I think most folks have a good feel for Pyke now, and honestly, I'm not a fan of him in his current state.

His passive is an issue for a champ designed to support, if I'm honest. He has a lot of sustain in lane, and can afford some pretty stupid trades because of it. Likewise, it turns support items into damage items, which sort of spits in the face of their utility-based nature. These abilities aren't an issue in the the jungle, but in lane they interact inconsistently with the rest of League's support dynamics.

His actual kit has some issues, though. I think one of the most obvious is his R. Now, I'm actually of the opinion that the gold-sharing dynamics aren't the issue. A decent support is getting that gold to their carry anyway, so really all it does is buoy Pyke himself up, and honestly it can be a real hard life being a support, so hey, whatever. The issue I have is that it has VERY limited interaction windows. It's a fairly fast-to-cast execute; getting out of it requires some damn fast reflexes due to it's AoE nature. And I could live with that... If it wasn't re-castable if it's successful.

Because again, this is inconsistent. Champs like Darius need to EARN their recasts, even if they're easier to get; you need to build stacks first, and then you still need stacks after (even though they're easy to get from there). Comparitively, champs with easy-to-get, melee-range executes like Garen, don't get recasts. Pyke is getting the best of both of these worlds, with base numbers superior (though with less ability scaling, if not by too much) in an AoE form that can help him set up more uses of his ult. Of course, we can compare him to Kat here, but Kat doesn't have a shield-ignoring execute and instant damage dump. Her ult provides windows of interaction, before and during.

From there, the rest of his kit isn't AS flawed. But it's still flawed enough. His W is a great positioning tool, and can also be a viable escape tool. His E is a great escape tool, and is a viable positioning tool. He has a way in AND a way out that also has hard CC attached, with no debuffs. Excuse me, but "Um, what?"

Honestly, examining his Q through E, you're looking at a variation on Blitzcrank's kit; a pull, a speed boost, a hard CC tool. He converts one stat to another stat. This is a pretty solid basis for comparison. And it reveals some inconsistencies. Pyke's Q may not pull as far, but it can de-position just as hard if it's short range; having to go around another champ makes distance-to-travel to safety about as far AND filled with more AA's. The fact that it has more versatility, with it's alternate cast, means it's arguably beefier. Pyke's W doesn't come with attack speed, but it comes with camouflage, which is a great positioning and escape tool. And it comes without a debuff. And Pyke's E, ho boy. You can throw overhead, dash to safety and hard CC. You can dash to engage, and body-block your target. You can dash to escape a bad pull during a gank.

This is what's wrong with Pyke to me; not that he's an effective "assassin support" (which, hey, not a fan. But damage supports are how some people like to play, so whatever.), but rather that he's DROWNING in utility as an assassin. And that isn't supposed to be how that works.

Yes he has weaknesses. He's fragile (but only if caught out) and extended fights can be his downfall. But that's the case for most non-tank supports, and they either don't get the same sustain, or the same damage.

He needs more metagame, as such. There needs to cost and benefit to using his kit in certain ways, either in variable cooldowns, or requiring stacks, or procs, or something. Because he's currently a very diverse champ with a low barrier of skill to be maximally effective. And again, that isn't supposed to be how it works.

12 Comments

MrFawknSunshine6/13/2018, 11:05:47 PM2 votes

an AD ASSASSIN SUPPORT wont ever be viable unless completely over powered cuz of gold income of a support... just as in seasons passed when supports moved from support role to mid/top etc it was cuz their kits were over loaded and had great scaling making them a pain if they built full mage/damage with a solo lane gold/experience.

Now that we have pyke in bot lane either he has to have more gold ( which is why if he kills with ult the teammate that asst gets 300 gold as well ) or has to have his numbers/kit over tuned

also since he is going support his 1st item has to be a support income item then he gets to build into an assassin/bruiser build therefore his power spike is delayed greatly as a champ and if he isnt ahead and snowballing in botlane come mid to late game he is too much of a liability to team/adc cuz he isnt tanky enough to engage, his cc is egh and his damage lacks due to lack of items/gold

Steelflame6/14/2018, 12:38:51 AM1 votes

I have several problems with him as well, split across several aspects of his kit.

  1. Passive. His passive makes it hard to actually get any damage to stick to him at all as most supports, and pretty much lets him freely ignore light harass. The Health > AD ratio is also too good, being only just behind the actual gold efficiency of just buying raw AD (Hint, this is part of why Tank Pyke works well). The most obscene power in his passive though is the free ward detection once you have been in combat once since recalling. It will play his healing animation at any time once he has taken champion damage since the last recall, meaning he can use it in a similar way to the Duskblade "hidden" ward detection "mechanic".

  2. Spear range is just a smidge too long IMO. Should be faintly shorter, but a faintly stronger pull.

  3. W I'm fine with. Perhaps reduce the base gained MS, increase the ratio, and make it drag out the MS buff over a bit longer duration. I've outran an ulted Yi with rank 1 W before. Really feels like that shouldn't have happened, and makes him a bit too hard to pin down if you actually had been on top of him because so many champs cant keep up with how strong his MS buff is.

  4. E's hitbox is.... funky. I swear half the time I am playing him it should have been a clean hit (Standing clear on the opposite side of the enemy from the phantom, somehow didn't hit), half the time I'm against him it feels like absolute BS that it hit at all (Practically hit from beside him, without being between him and the phantom).

  5. R. Base damage too high, ratio too low. Makes tanky builds or from behind too effective, but not feeling good even in a lead.

Now... He needs buffs, bad. Seriously, he is in a very bad spot at the 45% or so winrate he is at.

Fix his bugs (Most notably his ulti has this very odd refusal to cast bug that is very rough on him because of how fine the timing is for his ult generally, and makes it fail to cast, and it resets the CD too early and effectively is very prone to wasting the reset in just chaining another cast instantly. Needs something like a .2 second lockout before you can recast it if you do reset, or something along those lines), give the man some actual ratios worth building for (His ratios are rather ass. Sure his ulti ratio needs to be weaker because its a long duration reset with a blink component potentially, in a smallish AoE, but why the hell is his Q and E such terrible ratios too?), and retune his HP>AD ratio (Something like 1 AD per 20 HP and perhaps also adjust it to have partial armor/MR > AD as well, to help curb the Tank Pyke trend.).

LordGeovanni6/14/2018, 1:38:52 AM1 votes

Support is only a role because gold isnt enough to share between 2 carries you are mixing Supports in other games genre's with moba supports. Pike is not fast to cast his Q has a very long wind up time and all of his spells have a very high down time his Q also moves very slow in the air you can out run it during the cast without boots just like blitz crank q

Doctor Taeyeon6/14/2018, 2:47:10 AM1 votes

He's fine

CaptainAntiHeroz6/14/2018, 3:18:32 AM1 votes

Honestly pykes ult and passive are pretty ludicrous, but the main problem I feel is no one knows how to counter him Rakan doesn't work Lulu can mess his timing up but she can't stop him forever because his damage, and he'll just focus her first Soraka gets clapped Janna messes him up pretty well Morgana stops his engage not the damage He'll just e away from blitz He can juke threshs hook and hook him while in the animation but flay interrupts the stun so it's a skill matchup A good zilean can tilt pyke to afk, but only ten people or something play that champ Zyras plants just feed his overgrowth faster, he can delete your plants from a range, and is faster than her Lux can annoy pyke but if he has cleanse he'll banish her to the shadow realm Karma is meh in general, you either do damage to him, or pray your shield maxing will save your carry Sona's too squishy and has to buy too many Mana items to be able to easily deal with pyke Leona gets cc'd if she engages on him first and that leaves the carry open Braum is always there for you Tahm Kench is op and claps basically every melee support Bard ..... Who knows, depends on the player Brand isn't a damn support don't try to joke with me Nidalee support is too squishy Sion claps whoever is dumb enough to stand there trying to kill his carry Nautilus rekts pyke But if none of those float your boat: Fiora relic shield, grasp, tiamat, triforce, that pykes gonna hate you but you'll love the free two squishy things you can chase out of lane every two minutes

Killed A Swan6/26/2018, 11:41:51 PM1 votes

I main Rel'sai and this guy is just unkillable to me. Just knock him up and he presses E and now hes gone, so sad and such a free escape and thats not even mentioning the w

Sir Prepuzius10/23/2018, 2:55:46 PM1 votes

i don't agree with most of your points.. here is why pyke is not op as you make it look like

  • his Q. true hooks are a powerful tool, problem is that he has the worst hook in the pool.. slow to charge, telegraphed, and even if it lands it just deposition slightly the opponent, nothing like blitz fast as light wall traspassing hook that place the opponent right in front of him, or like thresh long cc styled hook

-his W. that probably is the most op ability in his kit. camouflage + speed boost + health regen. that's what makes pyke viable and not utter trash

-his E. hard cc skillshot. nothing we haven't seen before. moreover he put pyke in a dangerous position after cast, so it's really a double edged sword. and it's not so difficult to avoid for the opponent

-his R. the fun part of his kit and probably the second most op ability of his kit due to his reset and gold sharing

if i have to draw a conclusion i see two abilities that are indeed powerful, while the other two are full of drawbacks and open to counterplays so i think that's quite balanced

Koechophe6/13/2018, 10:33:23 PM1 votes

Let's start with the basic fact that according to win rates, Pyke is very far from OP. He's currently rocking a 44.6% win rate (as per champion.gg) as a support (and an even more abysmal one as jungler). As someone who has played a lot of Pyke (and loved him BTW) and as a support main, I disagree with a few of your points.

-Pyke is swimming in counterplay. His Q is crazy hard to land from a long range (it's the charge-up slow-moving missle of death) and his E is extremely short ranged, which also has a delay tacked on, and requires you to literally dash through any target that's not chasing you. His W shows obvious sharks to anyone in the vicinity so they know Pyke, specifically, is here, and his ult is technically AOE, but is the width of a teemo in the X pattern (that is not an exaggeration). It is instant cast, but Pyke has to predict your movement to land it.

-Pyke's passive doesn't give as much sustain in lane, since it starts at only 30% hp recovered (and the grey hp cannot exceed 25% of his max hp), so you're looking at a maximum of 7.5% of his max hp recovered from each trade. Knowing that, poke is less effective against Pyke; the higher the damage, the less he recovers. Far better to all-in him, especially early, as his trading power is severely limited before he gets his ult. You also need to take into account that his mana costs are extremely punishing in lane. He cannot afford to poke you, in fact, he has no poke. This is extremely important to recognize, since if you get him low, he is useless because he can't all-in.

-I see no problem with the fact that HP items give him damage; that is not a friendly buff to Pyke, it is a hardcore limitation. Pyke would be much better off if he could build HP (he would actually be broken) and even a warmongs would give him 57 ad, which compared with Duskblade, is just a stupid idea. You don't build hp on Pyke on purpose for the AD, it's better to just build AD.

-Pyke is slippery to the extreme, but let's face it, so are pretty much every other assassin (Leblanc Zed Fizz to name a few). Again, I see no problem with this, as literally everything in Pyke's kit can be avoided fairly easily if you know how to play around him. Pyke is a skill test with the opponent, and in my humble opinion, one of the healthiest champs riot's released lately.

Vekkna10/23/2018, 4:19:17 PM1 votes

Currently playing 100% of my games as Zyra support (gg mid "buffs") and ban Pyke in 100% of games. The one game I banned Shaco, Pyke was picked. Won that game but only because the Pyke was trash.

My biggest bitch with Pyke is that his Q is literally a 1-button chain cc. There is absolutely no justification for a non-decaying 90% slow to exist on a hook like that. Alistar used to have a knockup and stun on landing on Pulverize, but that was removed in 6.22. For whatever reason, Riot allows this to persist on Cho's Q.

But in general, the counterplay to hook champs is mostly about positioning around minions. So of course it makes loads of sense to give a hook champ 5 seconds of stealth, right? That right there is why he gets my ban. There are other supports that are harder for me to play or win against, but at least they aren't popping out of stealth with a displace, 90% slow, and stun cc chain.