Riven lore update

Krabohod··5 votes·950 views

Riven is the perfect candidate to show Noxus Ionia invade. But for the love of god please keep her as sort of Remarque character. She is represent kinda "lost generation" from Hemingway 'Farewell to Arms' or from Remarque's 'All Quiet on the Western Front'. She (among Aatrox) is the character in league that must represent war. That tiredness of war. Not just war, but that part of war. She as a character could show us terrors of the war for people and for solduers. That feeling in soldiers when you feel that maybe you're not doing the right thing, that feeling when soldiers in your unit die on your hands. Riven as a character could show us that attempt to survive for ordinary soldiers while big battles and big war is happening.

I always saw Aatrox as embodiment if war crimes (like killing people who surrender and etc.). And Riven could be the continuation of that line. What's it like for ordinary women and men in the middle of the war, surrounded by terrors, war crimes. Surrounded by blood and dirt. More over, Riven could show us what's it like to receive horrific orders from the people that not even on the same continent and from people that do not care for the life of their own soldier and soldiers (and also about lifes of Ionians).

As the lore update of regions is getting closer, pls @loreteam do not forget about Riven in that way.

23 Comments

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

I just hope they don't take a Vayne route in regards to Riven (and Syndra).

Riven could have a truly beautiful lore, especially one that showcases PTSD and the brutalities of fighting in war.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

If they're going to do Riven lore, PTSD is the last thing I want them to go on. In fiction, and RPGS, PTSD has always felt like an easy "Feel sorry for me" card, and it only comes into play when they get triggered by something that makes them do X, which to me feels like a lame trait. It also shouldn't have anything to do with "the Brutalities" of War. Noxian's love war, it's their sense of Glory that drives them forward.

It shouldn't be about Brutality of War, it should be solely about the Noxian Ideal. Riven is meant to be a pure case of uncorrupted Noxian ideals. Unlike Darius, who has done a lot of "Cleaning house" going up the chain of command, Riven still has morals when it comes to "Might = Right", and that should be shown. Riven should be going around Ionia beating up bandits threatening small Villages, because She has the power to stop them, and so she does, as that is her responsibility.

Being Strong does not mean killing everyone. It means you show you have the capability to make right choices, and Riven is that pure ideal. Strength doesn't mean you slaughter every single being you come across, which is what Riven was forced to do during the Ionia campaign. It's "I'm strong, so I lead", not "I'm strong, so you die."

Sexy Jack Rabbit3 votes

You don't really seem to realize that PTSD is a serious issue that close to 95% of individuals involved in war actually suffer from. PTSD is a legitimately horrible and debilitating disorder that has been bastardized by horrible storytelling, drama queens and a long list of other offenders in that regard.

It's hardly a lame trait, it's just a horribly mis-represented one, similarly depression and schizophrenia it's a legitimate disorder that is more often then not used to create a cheap sob story.

PTSD is something that I think could very welly link back into Riven's character and Noxian Ideals. The Noxian Ideal, even it's purest form is not a pacifist one. It wouldn't be unnatural or uncommon for Noxian warriors to suffer from it. A lot of Riven's quotes could even be interpreted as her suffering from mild PTSD.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

It's a lame trait because it doesn't do anything for the Character save one of three things, and I'd also love to know where you pulled your statistic. I have family who've been in the Military, a long line, so don't act like I don't know anything about it.

  • Random Flashbacks of War

  • Got Triggered so they did X

  • Becoming Irrational

If you want to share some examples of it being well done, feel free, but I have yet to see it. Regardless of that, I really don't think you can link PTSD with Noxian ideals, nor Riven. Some smaller, weaker soldier maybe, but Riven throughout her entire Old Lore was seen as the Poster Child for the Noxian Spirit.

What that means is that she is extremely strong willed, extremely strong, and earned her way up through strength and achievement. She has a strong will and a strong mind, and this one quote shows it best.

but her true strength lay in her conviction. She entered battles without any trace of doubt in her mind: no ethical pause, no fear of death.

She is not the type of person, in character and in spirit, in which PTSD is, even done "right", a good trait on. She's not that type of person, shes extremely strong willed and is able to withhold herself during Battles. It's just as much if you wanted Teemo to have PTSD. In his lore, it's very evident that he is simply not the character in which the trait fits.

And no, none of her quotes could reflect Minor PTSD. A character can reflect and remember a war without PTSD, and that's seems to be what she's doing.

Eternal7913 votes

Just gonna say even the strongest people can break, so it wouldn't be impossible for Riven to have PTSD. In fact it would be quite likely that she would given the fact that she watched her enemies and allies alike burn in a chemical bombardment.

Though I'm not taking a side on whether it would be better for her story or not.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Not saying it's out of the question, but given her current character, even by Old Lore means, PTSD wouldn't go well with her.

JustARivenMain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=L29lpnAZ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-05-30T07:01:15.780+0000)

If they're going to do Riven lore, PTSD is the last thing I want them to go on. In fiction, and RPGS, PTSD has always felt like an easy "Feel sorry for me" card, and it only comes into play when they get triggered by something that makes them do X, which to me feels like a lame trait. It also shouldn't have anything to do with "the Brutalities" of War. Noxian's love war, it's their sense of Glory that drives them forward.

It shouldn't be about Brutality of War, it should be solely about the Noxian Ideal. Riven is meant to be a pure case of uncorrupted Noxian ideals. Unlike Darius, who has done a lot of "Cleaning house" going up the chain of command, Riven still has morals when it comes to "Might = Right", and that should be shown. Riven should be going around Ionia beating up bandits threatening small Villages, because She has the power to stop them, and so she does, as that is her responsibility.

Being Strong does not mean killing everyone. It means you show you have the capability to make right choices, and Riven is that pure ideal. Strength doesn't mean you slaughter every single being you come across, which is what Riven was forced to do during the Ionia campaign. It's "I'm strong, so I lead", not "I'm strong, so you die."

This right here

Arcus Diabolus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=L29lpnAZ,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-05-30T07:01:15.780+0000)

If they're going to do Riven lore, PTSD is the last thing I want them to go on. In fiction, and RPGS, PTSD has always felt like an easy "Feel sorry for me" card, and it only comes into play when they get triggered by something that makes them do X, which to me feels like a lame trait. It also shouldn't have anything to do with "the Brutalities" of War. Noxian's love war, it's their sense of Glory that drives them forward.

It shouldn't be about Brutality of War, it should be solely about the Noxian Ideal. Riven is meant to be a pure case of uncorrupted Noxian ideals. Unlike Darius, who has done a lot of "Cleaning house" going up the chain of command, Riven still has morals when it comes to "Might = Right", and that should be shown. Riven should be going around Ionia beating up bandits threatening small Villages, because She has the power to stop them, and so she does, as that is her responsibility.

Being Strong does not mean killing everyone. It means you show you have the capability to make right choices, and Riven is that pure ideal. Strength doesn't mean you slaughter every single being you come across, which is what Riven was forced to do during the Ionia campaign. It's "I'm strong, so I lead", not "I'm strong, so you die."

I like this a lot. Makes her a bit of a spiderman eske character, but in quite a few ways, thats likable and it fits with her character and lore.

Krabohod2 votes

I think this difference between Noxus ideals and horrifying reality of war makes a great character. It could show real person in Riven.

How you can not have some kinda mental affect on you when literallly your own country and your commanders bombed your squad to bury you with your foes.

The thing about 'poster girl' feels so lame. I mean it could be a cool twist if in Noxus she is considered war hero and poster girl (and most people don't know about Noxus bombing Noxus soldiers). But the thing is that the man who kill other people without any regret is either psychopath or moron. That's the problem with Noxus ideals. Conquers leads to killing and killings in a horrifying way. That's what Riven character could show us.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I still don't see what giving Riven PTSD is going to do for her. What does it help build? She can feel regret from killing without it, and she can realize War is whatever by simply roaming the Ionian lands and experiencing Peace in all it's worth. What does it give her, and what is it meant to do for her character? Having to "get over it" is another horrible trait I've seen PTSD used in stories, it's such a false conflict.

I also have to disagree with this

But the thing is that the man who kill other people without any regret is either psychopath or moron

That is a Soldiers job. They turn their gun/sword, and they aim it towards the enemy. It is not that black or white, and I hope you refrain from telling an actual soldier what you said. A moment's hesitation in the battlefield could mean death, so what you're saying is "Did you value that man/woman's life over your own, when they mean you harm?".

You can argue the moral basis about the war, but don't talk about Soldiers like that.

Krabohod1 votes

The thing is Riven is weak character. There are a lit of 'poster boys and champions who do not regret fighting and killing. Darius and Garen are poster boys of their countries, their countries' true ideals. So Riven character will only win from showing us gap between ideals of Noxus (promises of Noxus commanders) and true terrors of war.

About PTSD. I don't think it's obligatory for her, but it's more likely for her to have Ptsd than not have. After all she was bombed by her own country by the decisions of her own commanders, and all men apart from her in her unit died. Not an easy picture.

About soldier. Being a soldier is morally oneof the worst job you could possibly have. Killing people for ideals of your country is just bad. No matter what the reasoning are, what is story behind situation, killing people on the war is bad. And if soldier doesn't regret it he/she is really bad person.

Akso,please do not forget that Runterra has no Geneva convention. Wars have a lot of war crimes. And I mean a lot. From war perspective Noxus invasion is close to First World War. Please read 'All Quiet on the Western Front' and 'Farewell to Arms' to see how terrific that types of war are. There is no good in them, no ideals. You just in the dirt trying to survive. In Riven's case your command also orders you to kill innocent not-soldiers and bombs your unit.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

No, Garen and Darius show the Countries Extreme Ideals, they're meant to be the "This is wrong with the system". Darius murdered politicians who he thought was weak, and we all know about Demacia's Anti-magic stuff. Riven is a actual true Noxian ideal, and Kled is someone who recognizes that through his quote "Pure Noxian girl. Almost liked her. Almost."

Riven should be the example that shows people, "Hey, maybe those Noxian's aren't that bad." Darius believes only the strong should live, while Riven may believe only the Strong should lead instead, big difference especially with Darius in mind. Darius shouldn't be the True Ideal, because he is an outlier, an Urchin who grew up to become a General through strength and maliciousness. Though it's not mentioned in Old Lore, Riven could easily just be some patriotic middle-class men, she's the average person.

Please stop talking like you actually know what War is like. Stop insulting those who risk their lives to protect our/their country. It is not that black and white, and you saying that they should feel bad for valuing their own life over others is probably the worse thing I've heard today. There is a huge difference, between killing and liking it, and killing and not feeling anything.

Krabohod1 votes

Why you want Riven to be so lore-weak character? 'Pure ideal' seeing terrors of war and getting mentally f-cked on war is much more interesting character (and more capable of creating a good story) than "you know Riven? So, she is pure Noxus ideal - that's it". The second version is just lame and weak. Just 'poster girl' is not a character - it's dull. It's not real in a way.

And Darius just uses the system that around him. He controls it - pure strength. He earns everything through his strength - just like Noxus want it.

Now about war and soldiers. First of all, please read the books I've mentioned. You clearly don't know what war is. What battlefields REALLY looks like. War is not about fancy sh-t, it's not about ideals. Secondly, we are talking about invasion. Noxus invasion. Invasion that was started by kinda bad people, who are performing war crimes and using dirty and horrific ways to fight (like gas bombs). Please, stop defending this approach. Riven is invader. She or any men in that situation must feel guilty. She is seeing her country killing innocent a surrendered or peaceful people and, you say, she should feel nothing? That is sign of psychopathic person.

I understand that you are talking about defenders of countries. They are grey morally area. More close to black. But Riven isn't defender.

And I repeat: please, please read those books. And in overall read books about 'lost generation' of WW I . You are clearly think that war is about ideals and etc. It's not. War is dirty, war I fearfull, horrible and horrific. In that books you will see what the REAL battles are. How people really feel.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I don't, I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I just don't want her being another "Oh PTSD so sad, so bad, War is evil" character. It's stupid and terrible, and doesn't add anything to her. No one has yet to tell me what having PTSD is meant to contribute to her character.

I have been suggesting time and time again what else could be done to add to Riven's character. Look back through all my comments, I have been talking about what could be done instead of PTSD.

I don't need to read any books about a generation of War, and a Generation of warfare, that is no longer relevant to today's actual standards of War. I have first hand sources of War, from my own Dad, both of my grandfathers, my great uncle, my great grandfather, and two of my uncles. So don't act like I don't know anything.

None of them regret taking a life. Why? Because they know that if they don't, the enemies are going to take theirs. And these are Soldiers who served in the Korean, Vietnam, and Iraq/Afganhistan wars, wars that have not been just "Self-defense", but because of a political agenda.

So I don't need to read about wars to know what I'm talking about. I have first hand sources who served time and took lives, each without a regret. And you're telling me, that my family are psychopaths because they don't feel regret for taking a life that might have taken theirs?

Now let's look at actual War. War is the use of Violence to further a Political goal. Noxus itself is a fairly patriotic state, with soldiers who believe in their cause. With that in mind, if Noxus, like they have always historically done, decides to invade Ionia for their stuff, this is nothing new to them.

So they invade, and they attack. They follow the path that they have always followed, and to some degree, agree with. Unlike Demacia, Noxus doesn't script Soldiers. If you're weak, you're weak, go do something else to your own strength. So they attack, they kill, all under the guise of Glory, the sense of ethics and morals that they've been raised with since birth.

They don't feel bad, not because "they're pyschopaths", but because that is their Way of Life. The strong thrive, the weak get trampled. It's what they've always done, and how they see the world. And actually, Riven is disgusted by the use of Singed's gas weapons, but not because it's "terrible" but because it goes against their way of life.

You're meant to kill your enemies via overpowering them, by beating them with your own strength. By launching indiscriminate gas weaponry, that killed ally and enemy alike, that's entirely against that Way of Life. You can not fight Gas weapons, and your allies can't prove their strength when killed by your own weapon.

That is the entire reason Riven is disgusted. It goes against the way of life, that she and others have grown up around. She realizes that those who lead them no longer follow the same ideals. That is why she went into self-exile. Not because of the Horrors of war, but because SHE no longer agrees with a Government that doesn't follow how she lives her life.

Eternal7911 votes

I think something both of you don't seem to realize is that when the U.S. goes into a country, they're generally trying not to kill innocent civilians (not that it doesn't happen) while, from what I've gathered, Noxus doesn't seem to care. They were willing to use chemical weapons that would kill enemy and ally soldiers, along with any women or children that happened to be in the direction the wind would blow those chemicals.

And when a soldier kills their enemy its okay whether or not they feel regret... cause the reality is, some good people can do that and feel fine while others can't. What is bad, is when they enjoy taking a life.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Exactly, it's not black or white, everyone has different responses based on who they are. It's why I said

There is a huge difference, between killing and liking it, and killing and not feeling anything.

In the first place. It just got messy since we're arguing both the morals and ethics of a fictional World and real life :P

Eternal7911 votes

XD yeah, if you ask me, this conversation's been messy for at least a few comments now. Probably best to for you guys to just agree to disagree and go your separate ways.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I suppose 10 paragraphs worth of argument is a good stopping point...

KoKoboto2 votes

Taric is like Riven except he found a new calling

Ralanr2 votes

Riven's character is awkward given where she's from.

Though I think I know one way they could make her conflict have more sense.

Make her from the country. Preferably from a Noxian conquered territory that has been a part of Noxus for generations.

I feel that Riven makes more sense as an idealistic Noxian if she grew up in the countryside away from all the politics and nobles (opposite of Darius, who grew up poor on the streets). Country folk tend to put places and their ideals on pedestals (or at least in fiction. The whole trope of country girl moving to the city wouldn't exist otherwise) so Riven would be raised on stories of Noxus's positive traits and how war is glorious.

Turns out, war is hell and the honor she was told about as a child is dying if not long dead.

And this can still fit in my headcanon of her being a descendant of Sion.

Arcus Diabolus1 votes

Agreed. We need more information on her Ideals as well. That part is hazy right now.

A continuation of her story would be great to have too.

JustARivenMain1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcus Diabolus,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=L29lpnAZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-30T02:12:17.080+0000)

Agreed. We need more information on her Ideals as well. That part is hazy right now.

A continuation of her story would be great to have too.

Well if Noxus didn't gas their own troops with the enemies and there was no war, I'd be easily persuaded if they made her a vigilante at this point, she believes in what's right (not mindlessly killing people) but there's strength in all I guess. (Judging from the quotes I hear everyday)

Lintu Puck1 votes

As long as they keep her "connection" to Yasuo's story ambiguous, then I'm not to worried. I mean I think most of us think Riot views Riven as one of their poster girls, so I doubt they'd do her wrong.

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