About the Vastaya: "the vastaya are not an individual species, but [snip] a phylum" ???? Also Ahri

yay nibbers··10 votes·7,906 views

So I read the good Sir Santagelo's journal and I wonder, does he even know what he's talking about?

I would theorize that the vastaya are not an individual species, but a taxonomic classification more on par with a larger order, or a phylum.

"Phylum". He does realize how far out there that would put the vastaya away from not only humans but other vastaya, right? For reference, humans and fish both belong to the same phylum (chordata), and I'm sure you can tell just how different we are as animals. In entirely other phyla, you have things like insects, snails, and even creatures down to the microscopic level all in different phyla. You can tell just by looking at the various vastaya shown to us that they're all almost definitely within our own phylum, ****as vertebrates are (among some others). A case could be made for them being their own order, especially when you consider the origin Santangelo was told, but even that (and phylum as well) is thrown out the window when he mentions the possibility of insect vastaya. "At this rate, the next vastayan creature I see could likely resemble a walking roach."

We also have to take into account their human origins, that is, the fact that they're at least half human (or the first generation of them are at least). Then theres the shapeshifters that the human refugees somehow paired with. Considering creatures of different species (let alone higher classification levels) generally can't reproduce together, they must be human as well.

Of course, this could just be a man trying to make sense out of something magical, which by nature doesn't always make a lot of sense.

Basically: Magic is weird, vastaya (like magic) are weird, Santagelo is doesn't know jack, other stuff

Regarding Ahri: Ahri's inclusion doesn't make sense. If Ahri were a vastaya, would there not be more fox ladies running around (yes please)? Not to mention her lore contradicts their supposed origin, solely on the fact that she was born a fox who was magically transformed into a human (or almost a human, she's working on it). Meanwhile, what we're told would suggest the vastaya are born the way they are. As vaguely as they're described, Ahri could maybe be a member of the tribe of magical shapeshifters that originally helped bring the vastaya into existence through their pairing with a bunch of humans, but that still puts her out of the vayasta.

All that taken into account, either the pig merchant is a liar or Ahri is getting a lore update soon.

38 Comments

RiotWAAARGHbobo10 votes

Not exactly. We and fish share a common element. We both NEED water are primarly made OF water, and evolved BECAUSE of water.

The Vastaya have ancient ancestors who relate to natural magic the way we relate to water.

(Edited added below)

It is easiest to understand the general term Vastaya if you non-literally translate it to mean, "shaped BY natural magic." It covers a wide spectrum of creatures - mostly chimeric and shapeshifters who exist as phyical beings but require magic as we require water.

Raxistaicho4 votes

They drink magic and 70% of their bodies are made of magic? @,@

RiotWAAARGHbobo5 votes

I dont think fish drink.

They need.

Crimson Anam2 votes

Hm. How do you think they would be affected if they were near Galio?

RiotWAAARGHbobo9 votes

not sure.

But I'm also not sure how I would do if I was covered in calcium chloride and placed next to 90 million de-humidifiers...

...probably unhappy at least.

SkyblazeHydraX36 votes

I'm guessing that explains how these individuals with human-level intelligence and superhuman-level capabilities aren't the dominant species of Valoran. Humans are highly adaptable and can carve out a place for themselves pretty much anywhere given time and determination. Vastayans, on the other hand, need a certain amount of ambient magic in order to survive.

At least, that's the implication I'm getting. It would also explain Ahri stealing human essence; with more human essence she becomes less reliant on ambient magic for her survival, becoming more human like in how her body functions.

Am I on the right track?

TyrekGoldenspear5 votes

At least, that's the implication I'm getting. It would also explain Ahri stealing human essence; with more human essence she becomes less reliant on ambient magic for her survival, becoming more human like in how her body functions.

This part really gets me thinking more about what makes Ahri unique. I really think you're on to something.

SkyblazeHydraX36 votes

Well Ahri got a short story quite a while back, and it shows that she still steals essence and longs to be a part of human culture. With the new backstory, it really explains why Ahri looks so different. Other Vastayan's are either animal people, or their bloodline is so diluted they're basically humans with shapeshifting capabilities.

Ahri though, Ahri is "in between". Her appearance by and large is very much and distinctly human, but she has very distinct animalistic features and nonhuman behavior. Combined with the fact that Riot apparently plans this shit out years in advance (with room for changes based on brainstorming and ideation, I suspect), I get the impression this is very much intentional.

What I'm curious about is this; if Vastayans require a certain level of magical ambience, assuming Rengar is a Vastaya- assuming, Riot has given no explicit confirmation besides "Rengar knows what he is"- then how can he apparently roam and hunt where he pleases? Or is he restricted to the magic of the Kumungu Jungle?

Mogarl1 votes

We can take a guess by looking at the one vastayan we know of outside of Ionia. Mama Elodie in City of Iron and Glass.

"The words were unknown to him, but they flowed like honey, half spoken, half sung. Every note drifted like leaves on a warm, summer night, flowing in spirals around the room. Her voice rose in pitch and volume, and Wyn felt his skin tingle with its touch. He let Mama Elodie’s song wash over and through him. Wyn felt a swelling feeling of connectedness between him and Kez. Her eyes met his and he knew she felt the same. But it was more than that. Wyn felt a connection between him and everyone in the audience, a sense of oneness and harmony he’d never known or dreamed was possible. Mama Elodie’s hands sculpted the air as her powerful voice filled the chamber with harmonies that penetrated skin and bone and made every edge within them smooth. Sweat sheened her skin, and veins stood out on her neck. However she was making this music, it was clearly taking a toll."

Elodie Likely used magic to enchant the audience in some way, and this did harm to her. I would guess that a vayatan can store up magic Like you might take a deep breath or have fat reserves. Rengar outside of Ionia would essentially be holding his breath or fasting.

Crimson Anam1 votes

{quoted}

not sure.

But I'm also not sure how I would do if I was covered in calcium chloride and placed next to 90 million de-humidifiers...

...probably unhappy at least.

Okay I see. Thank you for the explanation.

By the way, I am sorry to ask this suddenly but, can the 'new' vastaya fox woman/Ahri charm females as well? I am just honestly curious.

Solideus2 votes

Might there be an ancient, overarching connection between celestials (Soraka), ascended beings and vastaya, them all being anthropomorphic animals and all? :)

Maybe the same kind of relationship as what "true" space-dragons like Aurelion Sol are to terrestrial dragons?

nosafterburn1 votes

My only question is what does Sir Eduardo so-in-so think of Ezreal? Is he not even a blip on his radar, or is he someone that he knows and scoffs at or what (seeing as they are both explorers from Piltover)?

Kukan Seishin2 votes

Ahri is a Kumiho, therefore not a Vastaya right? (two different things I swear)

Fondling Gems1 votes

Ahri has never been mentioned to be a kumiho. We call her that because Kumiho's exist in our lore, but there has never been so much as a hint that the term exists in runeterra. As such Ahri has never been classified outside of having been a fox, and that lore could definitely change.

Since she was shaped by magic though she would still fall under the Vastayan territory based on how WAAARGHbobo explained it.

Maximum Morde2 votes

Clearly you never partied with my goldfish or beta.

kayakninja1 votes

I assume this exact question is the reason Riot hired Ghostcrawler.

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

I dont think fish drink.

They need.

Fish most certainly drink. It's why fresh water and salt water fish have very different kidneys.

ShriekMauler1 votes

Does this also mean that we'll be receiving lore updates for other Ionian "vastaya" like possibly Wukong? Also Rengar because we don't truly know his origins and he is a humanoid cat being...

yay nibbers5 votes

I get what you're saying but a lot of living organisms need water. For example: all of it as we know it. What you suggest goes far beyond phylum. Though I don't think trying to classify them taxonomically is that important. They're magic after all. Magic ain't gotta explain shit, as they say.

Regarding their ancestry, there's also the other half of their ancestry, that being humans from Ionia. Based on that alone I find it hard to believe they're 100% magic. For an example, I think of the typical demigod, half-human half-god, and how they're still (usually) essentially human but with godly ability.

Personally, I'm more concerned with Ahri's status. Are there plans to change her lore? Otherwise it kinda clashes with what vastaya are explained to be from what I understand. Or was the pig merchant or Santagenlo simply mistaken in classifying her as such?

Big Lincoln1 votes

if they are made of or depend on magic does that mean Galio wants to squish them

Linna Excel1 votes

Still, that would be them evolving from a common ancestor that had magic. Like how marine mammals come from a common ancestor but are still mammals.

LostFr0st4 votes

OP, I think you're right about the Phylum thing; I'd be surprised if they were actually part of a different Phylum. As someone who reads a ton of scientific journals the reaction to Sir Santagelo's journal is making me chuckle.

It's written in the same hokey way as the early science explorers where they exaggerate everything to get fame. The higher the discovery up the classification ladder, the greater the fame since everything after it (class order family genus species) would need to cite your work.

I wonder if the Vastaya's case is more like plasticity in plants? They have a bunch of genes in their pool, but due to they environment and diet, etc, only certain ones are expressed during and throughout development leading to the variances. The ones that shift can show their masked phenotype.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to this week to say the least. ^^

yay nibbers2 votes

Yeah I picked up on that too about his journal. It was pretty clear when he described his peace dance only to find the intelligent "creatures" (as he called them more than once) could speak his language. Santangelo is a bit of a blowhard but it's fun so w/e.

Some of the threads I'm seeing, I think people are reading way too much into his journal though, maybe even me too haha. We'll just have to see what comes of it in the future.

Plasticity is an interesting theory though. It wouldn't be too surprising to find that perhaps their differences are more surface level than one might think. With that in mind, take dogs for example. Some breeds of dog are so different from each other you'd swear they were different species, but in fact they're still good ol' canis lupus familiaris and indeed can reproduce with each other. On top of that, the domestic dog is itself a subscecies of the canis lupus, gray wolves, which has many other subspecies besides the domestic dog. What if the vastaya are to humans (and their other, magical ancestor) what the dogs and other canis lupus subspecies are to wolves?

LostFr0st1 votes

Now you're talking. I can't believe I overlooked the dog breeding. I've been working on plants too long. It could also be combination of the two, with the baseline traits being passed while the morphing is tied to their hidden genes being masked/unmasked.

It's like the League community is having the same split reaction as people did to Lyell's geology stuff or Karl Ernst Von Baer's Embryo drawings <--they're hilarious, you need to see them XD

I legit feel giddy reading the forums since the Vastaya teaser. It's the first time one has been so close to the topic I'm studying right now. (Plant genetics)

DeathBurst2 votes

It's written in the same hokey way as the early science explorers where they exaggerate everything to get fame.

Which needs to be put to Riot's writters' credit. It's most probably done on purpose, and flawlessly executed.

LostFr0st1 votes

I too have no doubt that's the case. It's funny watching people analyze them as if everything written there is pure fact. :P

Fondling Gems2 votes

He says that they are part of the same phylum, where vastaya is closer to a phylum, rather than a species because vastaya are as different as fish and humans from each other. Basically they are too different to count as a single species.

Now as for the common/rarity of people like Ahri we will have to wait on a lore update from her but there are a couple things to consider. First of all vastaya are pretty rare. Most of the world doesn't seem to know they exist at all. As such it isn't surprising that a tribe of fox people could live without being known about, especially if they have reclusive tendencies.

However we still don't know that Ahri is a vastaya. As far as I know her lore is still canonical. Based on her current lore that fox lady could be entirely different from Ahri or perhaps Ahri has simply could a place among the vastaya. She might be magically created (Similarly to how WW was a human) but in her current form it makes sense that she would choose to live in an area where she would be mistaken as one of the locals.

Also note that we don't know for sure how vastaya are made. If you remember the vastaya the author originally stayed with became very offended when asked about it and as such it could be a secret of the vastaya. Perhaps they aren't born (Or at least the first vastaya of each species aren't born) but rather created through a magical melding. That would fit with what we know of Ahri. She could very well have done something very similar to what happened with the original vastaya when she was afflicted by the magic surrounding the dying mage.

Crimson Anam1 votes

Actually, I just want to go with the theory that I should be very envious of whoever got to bed Ahri's mother. That makes everything much simpler to understand, you know~

BananaSlayerAMO1 votes

I think by classifying Vastaya as a new 'phylum' he means it's a phylum where every species within it is a combination of species from our phylum (plus some human). It doesn't make scientific sense, but, well, magic.

As to the origins of Vastaya, since shape-shifters and humans are different species, they must've biologically integrated via magic... right?

yay nibbers1 votes

The futility of trying to scientifically classify magical creatures is sorta the point I was going for. I obviously can't speak for person who wrote this or to their intent, but reading this from the perspective that it's a journal written by someone who just thinks they know what's what makes it more interesting to me.

Big Lincoln1 votes

It's basically just an umbrella term to cover anything that's an animal-person, i'm assuming

Cordel8a111 votes

"would there not be more fox ladies running around (yes please)?"

This made me Chuckle. I would say that if anything Ahri could be one of the original tribe. Which would explain just how close she is to human. We also Don't know for sure yet if they are tossing her old lore. Santegelo could very easily just assume this without it being the case.

Requiemsfire1 votes

To be fair, it's very possible that scientific or in Runeterra's magical creature classification could be very different from how we classify as the Taxonomy of animal kingdom's purpose is to disambiguate different species and describe them effectively.

Robertsmash1 votes

It looks to me like vastaya are an odd group in which there can be huge physical differences between members/generations, and the possible pairings/differences are large enough (and their own numbers small enough) that each vastaya could very well be a unique phenotype. I kind of think of each individual as a unique species themselves who, when reproducing, can produce a radically different species "mix" based on their mate.

I do think a different phylum is a bit of a stretch. That's insane, but it's highly likely that Santagelo was just spitballing or may not have the most accurate idea of what a phylum is. His (possibly unqualified) cursory guess after seeing a couple vastaya is certainly not an authoritative, rigorous, scientific confirmation. In my personal opinion, it would be difficult for me to swallow inter-phylum mating.

Maximum Morde1 votes

Convergent evolution. Suspension of disbelief. Pick one, or both.

Meliodäs1 votes

FINALLY. Finally there's a someone called Windy Ronin(thank you for having a brain) who understands that Ahri isn't a fucking Vastayan or whatever this stupid race is. She's just kitsune.

yay nibbers1 votes

To be fair, more info has come to light regarding Vastayans and their classification. It's not necessarily a race per se (though this we already knew), it could well just be a broad term to refer to a whole new kind of living beings. Ahri's likely still the exact same fox we know, she just happens to also fall under the label of Vastayan. Think of it like how we as humans fall under the animal kingdom (Animalia) alongside the other animals of the world who are otherwise completely unrelated to us, Ahri could fall under the umbrella of Vastayan alongside the new champions and other vastaya who have vastly different origins. It'd be no different than the kitsune of Japanese myth who fall under the umbrella of 'yokai' along with their other mythological creatures.

More from Story, Art, & Sound

More by yay nibbers