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Damn riot, why did you have to do that to Voli?

WarWork··14 votes·1,478 views

First lemme just say I love the idea of Ornn, the're many way riot could have gone with a god-like chracter and thy gave him a really unique and interesting character. With that bing said, while i don't mind Voli gting an upgrase being a demi god and siblings to him and Anivia, why did h characer have to become <insert typical bad guy here>? I miss the old Voli, champion for his people now, he's jus a character that just love to fight and we already have so many of those champions already in league. ANd the ursine, once a race that when i played Voli i felt proud of, or now just a horde of mindless abomination like wtf why? Escpecially after the gave us the diverse Vastayah. Well at least now te have an excuse on why we won't ge an ursine champ.

And if a red reads this i know what they're gonna say, probably just say Voli has a deeper side to him. But i hate that it's like how they try to tell us Noxus isn't just the bad guy nation anymore but yet almost all lore dictates that. Eg. Kayne's lore with what they did to him and the other kids. later someone on the board clarified saying tha this isn't a normal practice and basically that general was just f####d up. But the lore doesn't show us that in the lore we ae given Noxus is still just the bad guy nation and you wouldn't know other wise if you've never been on the boards.

35 Comments

Sahn Uzal29 votes

I remember not too long ago, Viktor mains were outraged at new lore related to him, because he got his own cult, and looked like a stereotypical villain. That was in Jayce's story, if I recall correctly? Then Viktor's story came out, and it turned out that Viktor didn't care for that so called cult, and was still the tragic character people fell in love with.

Or something among those lines.

I'd say we should wait for Volibear's side of the story before we judge.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

Viktor is one.

But on the other end people are still complaining about the Trundle rewrite. And that was years ago.

Riot is not exactly batting 1000. Where every rewrite is better.

Axzarious3 votes

I think the reason why people are so sour about the lore reworks like Trundle, Karthas, and Xerath is that Riot didn't even bother trying to keep the bits of lore and personality that made those champions themselves when they rewrote the lore. Trundle and Karthas don't even resemble what they once were, and Xerath's lore reads more like a bad fanfic written for Azir's sake than the Magus' own.

ModKnightsKemplar6 votes

I was about to come into the comments here and say the same thing. Preach.

Warlord Dienekes3 votes

One thing that makes me wary this might not be a Viktor bait and switch is the response Riot have had.

When the Viktor thing exploded they were on the boards saying "hey, be patient. We haven't forgotten Viktor" The only things I've seen from them about Volibear have been more about building up the monster side. If not for him then at least the ursine which were described as worse than werebears. Which is an interesting comment because werebears have been portrayed as anything from monsters that gained their power by making a deal with the Devil to murder innocents in his glory in overly violent bloodbaths to the lawful good lycanthrope. But whatever they are they apparently worse than them. So that makes them seem bad.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

They might be bad. And there might be plenty for fans of old Voli to miss.

But that's all a "might" until we see his new lore. The lesson from Viktor wasn't "be patient and Riot will make it all better." It was "at least wait until you see what they did before you decide it's crap."

Tommy PickleNose1 votes

Yeah I have said this on a few other posts. Especially a lot of ornns lore is old folklore and passed through the ages, who knows what is true and what is embellished.

Variks the Loyal17 votes

The myths and legends and stories we have are told from the perspective of pro-Ornn Freljordians. Considering Ornn and Volibear are enemies, of course those stories are going to depict Volibear in a negative light.

In ancient Greece, the vast majority of the population held Ares, the God of War, in a negative light, and myths made him out to be selfish, cowardly, and whiny, always crying to Zeus whenever he got wounded by another god in battle. The Spartans, though, had a very different outlook on Ares that depicted him as a courageous warrior and fatherly to his children (Which he had with Aphrodite), the Amazons. The Romans, later on, also had a much more positive view on Ares (They called him Mars, which is where the word 'martial' comes from), and they called him a God of Agriculture in addition to a God of War.

It's the same with Volibear. Peace-oriented tribes of the Freljord like the Avarosan and the Hearthblood see Volibear as a warmongering, selfish being, while tribes like the Winter's Claw and Lokfar, whose stories we haven't heard yet, probably depict him as valiant and noble. We just haven't heard those stories yet, because these stories we have now focus on Ornn.

PhantomGG1 votes

{quoted}

The myths and legends and stories we have are told from the perspective of pro-Ornn Freljordians. Considering Ornn and Volibear are enemies, of course those stories are going to depict Volibear in a negative light.

In ancient Greece, the vast majority of the population held Ares, the God of War, in a negative light, and myths made him out to be selfish, cowardly, and whiny, always crying to Zeus whenever he got wounded by another god in battle. The Spartans, though, had a very different outlook on Ares that depicted him as a courageous warrior and fatherly to his children (Which he had with Aphrodite), the Amazons. The Romans, later on, also had a much more positive view on Ares (They called him Mars, which is where the word 'martial' comes from), and they called him a God of Agriculture in addition to a God of War.

It's the same with Volibear. Peace-oriented tribes of the Freljord like the Avarosan and the Hearthblood see Volibear as a warmongering, selfish being, while tribes like the Winter's Claw and Lokfar, whose stories we haven't heard yet, probably depict him as valiant and noble. We just haven't heard those stories yet, because these stories we have now focus on Ornn.

this post deserves so many more up votes

Warlord Dienekes6 votes

Just a point. There is no direct evidence that the Spartans had a more positive view of Ares. That has sort of been assumed by people for centuries and just got accepted as fact without proof. The closest we get is that they had a statue of Ares in chains (not actually all that uncommon, Athens had a statue of Nike in chains as well).

On the contrary one of the few things about their culture we have some decent basis to believe is that all spartiate were expected to memorize the Iliad. Which portrays Ares in a rather poor light, and he's on the losing side.

I think it comes from people wanting to force divisions between Sparta and Athens. Athens worshiped Athena the "good" war god. So Sparta had some scraps that showed they had some reverence for Ares so they get the "bad" war god.

When in actual fact Ares was not the patron deity of the city. That was either Artemis, Apollo, or, just to be confusing Athena. And of those three Athena seems to be the right one. To reinforce this, Sparta had 1 temple of Ares (so did Athens for the record) they had 4 for Aphrodite, and even more for Poseidon. Poseidon! The god of the sea. Sparta didn't even have a port for most of their history.

The one potential scrap of information that Sparta may have some positive view of Ares was that Xenophon briefly mentioned they offered a prayer to him. The exact prayer is lost to time, but one potential interpretation of it was "Hey Ares. Go make my enemy do something stupid. Thanks."

You are definitely right about Mars though. The Romans actually conflated the Greek Ares with the earlier Etruscan war and agriculture god Mars. Mars was originally basically the big Lawful Good god of their Pantheon. So when Rome tied him to Ares, Ares got quite a hero upgrade.

LunSeiSleidee2 votes

Dude wtf??? You know NOTHING of ancient Greece. Did you just watch the Wonder Woman movie and thought THAT was real Greek mythology???

I studied classic Greek myths for five whole years.

Ancient Greeks respected Ares the same way they respected all gods. Ares was like EVERY god, a Force of Life that was neither good nor evil.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

One, you're completely missing the point.

Two... Did you see Wonder Woman at all?

Three, they respected him. They didn't like him.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

{quoted}

One, you're completely missing the point.

Two... Did you see Wonder Woman at all?

Three, they respected him. They didn't like him.

One, I didn't miss the point, you said they made Ares sound cowardly while that's not true - there really is no myth in which he's coward or made fun of.

Two, I saw Wonder Woman, and it's about Christian symbolism, Zeus as God and Ares as Lucifer. I was interested by the idea, but also disappointed because Greek mythology is NOTHING like Christian religion - Greek myths are a lot more like Shinto beliefs.

Three, you didn't say they respected him, you said they made up stories (myths) in which he looks bad - and that is SO not true that I had to call you out on your bullshit. Hey, a lot of people here know little to nothing about Greek myths and you teach them wrong things. I hate that.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

You're still missing the point.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

{quoted}

You're still missing the point.

Yeah, the perfect reply of someone who just has nothing solid to answer back.

Let me guess, did you desperately try to Google up some myths in which Ares looks bad and - gasp- found out they don't actually exist, and you had confused films and comic books with actual ancient myths?

Oh, shut up, please, and next time how about you read Greek myths somewhere else than in a couple films, before proclaiming yourself an expert.

Variks the Loyal3 votes

Why are you being so aggressive?

I haven't tried to google shit, because I don't care. I remember reading the Illiad, and that Ares was portrayed as a whiny little bitch, as well as learning that Greeks had a general negative opinion of Ares in my college mythology class.

Dude, get over it. It's really not that important.

Moreover, you missed the point - that Volibear isn't evil from every perspective.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

{quoted}

Why are you being so aggressive?

I haven't tried to google shit, because I don't care. I remember reading the Illiad, and that Ares was portrayed as a whiny little bitch, as well as learning that Greeks had a general negative opinion of Ares in my college mythology class.

Dude, get over it. It's really not that important.

Moreover, you missed the point - that Volibear isn't evil from every perspective.

Yeah well I translated actual extracts from the Iliad when I was in high school. By the way, it's called Iliad, NOT Illiad. You can't even spell the name..... sigh. And don't tell me it's a typo, we both know it's not. As you said: you don't care. You don't know jack about Greek myths. So why did you have to write random bullshit about them?

You know why I am so aggressive? It's because I hate ignorance. Once, you barely peeked at Greek myths, and now you think you know about them. So you go spread false information, and more people will believe wrong facts.

And YOU missed the point, because this has nothing to do with Volibear and since my first comment to you, we have never been talking about Volibear.

But since you've been exposed, you're trying to switch the subject.

You know what? Doesn't matter. Ignorant people will keep being ignorant no matter what, and it's only people who already were ignorant before that would upvote your ignorant comment about Greek myths.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

Oh, wow! Hey, everyone, this guy translated the Iliad when he was in High School! LOOK AT HOW COOL HE IS!

[zombie-brand-clap]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/110MZt5qYxdrH2/200_s.gif

You need to take a chill pill, bro. I didn't write what I thought was random bullshit, I wrote what I thought was the truth as I learned it. You could have been like Dienekes up there and wrote in a cordial manner, and maybe the thread would have been better for it. So, nice going there.

I don't care about being exposed, I never even tried to say I was right and you were wrong, I'm not going to pretend I'm a master of Greek history, you're the one trying to make me seem like an idiot, for whatever reason. So, good job there, man.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

I'm not trying to show how cool I am. I was simply explaining why I know Greek mythology: because I've studied it rather deeply in school.

Let it be a lesson to you. The truth as you learnt it? You learnt a lie, apparently, and you were spreading it, making other people believe it. Essentially spreading ignorance.

I'm just saying, next time, write something only when you're quite certain that you are correct. Otherwise, simply phrase it as "I think that maybe....".

Don't spread ignorance, is all I'm saying.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

I did write what I was certain of. Still pretty certain of it, actually; everything I've ever read said the Greeks were ambivalent towards Ares and that most myths involving him involved him being humiliated, and that he was Zeus' least favored child, whereas Athena, also a god of war, was seen much more favorably.

Does that check with you?

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

No, it doesn't. That's what I've been trying to tell you.

I'm guessing you MAY have read some Athens propaganda versus Sparta. It's really the only explanation I can find on how you may possibly have gotten such information.

Even if we were to stretch things to assume that's where you've read that.... that's not accurate at all to Greek mythology and lore.

I still stand by the theory you've found that "information" on modern comic books. Because while that version of Ares is not the mythological one, it's the one you may find in modern comics or videogames.

Variks the Loyal2 votes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares

The Greeks were **ambivalent **toward Ares: although he embodied the physical valor necessary for success in war, he was a dangerous force, "overwhelming, insatiable in battle, destructive, and man-slaughtering." ... His value as a war god is placed in doubt: during the Trojan War, Ares was on the losing side, while Athena, often depicted in Greek art as holding Nike (Victory) in her hand, favoured the triumphant Greeks.

Cited as from this book, Greek Religion by Walter Burkert.

LunSeiSleidee1 votes

Yeah, do you understand all of this is true and nothing of this claims the Greek mocked Ares or considered him unworthy?

Try to read what you've actually quoted.

midnight oil241 votes

I like how you waited a full week to reply.

Also, this is just a legitimate question, I'm not trying to be rude or anything: why do you keep insulting people based on things like their taste in literature or what they learned in school? I mean, you got really mad at a guy over a potential mistake from what he learned about greek mythology. I'm just curious why you feel the need to do all this.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Okay, guy. I don't think I mentioned mocking, but sure.

I'm done because this is stupid. Good job winning.

[vlad-salute]

Whyte Lyon2 votes

Scathlocke, Ornn's narrative editor:

There's a LOT of lore which relies on the idea of "the unreliable narrator", i.e. that you are seeing things through the eyes of someone who was there, and you get their take on it. If they find Volibear terrifying, then it might come across slightly different from one of his followers who find him inspiring or whatever.

Most (not all) LoL fiction in the canon is from a subjective POV, but it's all canon. :-)

I hope that helps you understand a bit better OP.

WarWork1 votes

To be honest I get that a part of the problem I'm having is we got two to three pieces of lore and the information we can get from it we ar told that you cant necessarily take it as truth. So what part of his story can we believe? I don't mind the artsy biased interpreted lore but that's all we got basically. Basically we know little fact about Ornn aside from his personality and family from 1000 words of lore.

Whyte Lyon1 votes

To add more context, and this is all coming from the same person from Ornn AMA.

● The "forgotten" part is a big note, here. Matt 'FauxShizzle' Dunn had some great ideas that the history of the Freljord has been deliberately altered in the past, and whole traditions and tribes have been erased from whatever records exist.

● Many of the old tales of Ornn (and his siblings) have been lost or changed over time. Like in the real world, such definitions are hard to pin down because different people might believe different things. There are some people within the Freljord who have never heard of Ornn at all. Others might have heard of him but claim he's not a demi-god or a god, but a monster or a demon. Others might be willing to kill/die in order to deny that he exists at all...

This all explains why the writer chose the broken mythology angle for Ornn's storytelling. And its already been established that Lissandra was erasing parts of Freljord's history and culture. So the embellished lore is very appropriate in-universe, you just have to look at the bigger picture in order to comprehend why.

Son of Ur1 votes

Viktor 2.0

Killaburn1 votes

I think we will have an ursine champ. cough UDYR cough I think that's the direction of riot for udyr.

Variks the Loyal1 votes

They said Udyr (And Nidalee) have dealings with Vastayan blood. Not saying you're wrong, but if Udyr is/was among the Ursine, he had to have taken it to another level.

It would fit, though, since Udyr is from the Freljord.

Ralanr1 votes

I'll be honest, the only thing that made Volibear's character morally good is that we the audience had a vague idea that his vision was of something bad.

Because in his lore he presents himself as a crazed mystic who is telling his three leaders to go to war based on some vague prophecy/vision that he had and either doesn't or can't explain in detail. When they disagree, he fights them 1v3 (certifying badass power) and claims dominance over the tribe through force.

Literally the only thing that justifies him is his reasoning. Volibear imo is not a good person

That being said, they are removing the implied wisdom of being a shaman by the look of it and focusing more on the aggression aspect of being a bear. I do hope we get to see Volibear's side of the story, but I hardly think it justifies having an army of bear mutants around the Freljord killing people whenever they come across them.

Honestly he probably needed an army to fight the Watchers but the Watchers are all gone by this point.

WarWork1 votes

I have no problem with Voli not being a good person/ demi-god (eg. i love jhin) my main problem is just that it seems like his character is get really simple and 1 dimensional. Granted what i'm saying is probably unfair seeing that all the stories are really supposed to be about Ornn. And with the ursine not being a real race but seemingly mindless war loving abominations (as describd in eery new piece of lore they are mentioned in) i dont have much hope.

I jus hope Voli's new lore will have some complexity and showing it instead of riot just giving us a story where he is just simple then tell us on the boards "oh no he is more complex and has his reasons".

On a side note why did he need armor if mortal weapons dont seem to bother him???

Ralanr1 votes

Who said he was fighting mortals?

Meep Man1 votes

I think we need to get an updated Volibear backstory first. Remember when people complained that Riot had written Viktor off as a straight villain when Jayce got updated lore before Viktor? Well, then he became a morally grey character and everyone turned out to be wrong about what they thought Riot had done to their beloved character.

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