[Suggestion] Quick Idea about an Additional Posting Guideline

MackleDoge·Aug 1, 2014·10 votes·553 views

So, just real quick, I'm wondering about the idea of adding in another guideline for each of the sub-communities / boards. The general guideline principle is:

No Personal Sob Stories

Now, before you hang me, I'm not talking about something like a meaningful discussion about having issues playing and needing advice or suggestions. I'm talking about posts like these:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/memes/ERhYGvOr-karma-koin-10 http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/krgENoXs-when-higher-elo-players-lose-to-lower-elo-players http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/hPJdNOzL-riot-please-punish-this-player http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/LxqHqO9v-i-got-fucked-over-pretty-hard http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay/JseEtma4-ranked-toxicity

I don't see what the community gains from posts like these and currently they are sort of in a grey zone as to where they belong as far as posting location and whether or not they meet posting guidelines. I'm not opposed to the idea of someone mentioning they had a bad game, but if they are going to go out of their way to make a post about how bad their game was, they need to at least structure the thread in a manner that encourages constructive criticism, advice, and discussion around what they could improve or how to better handle the situation.

Thoughts, idea, or suggestions?

31 Comments

DaenAug 1, 20147 votes

Easy solution, just make a Baseless Complaints board! (kidding)

I can definitely see both sides here. On the one hand, those sorts of threads don't really tend to facilitate useful discussion. On the other, posts like this will happen regardless of the guidelines, and they can be cathartic both for the OP and for others reading the thread. I don't think making a rule against it would really help anything, though it could be useful to have some sort of area where constructive "why did this game suck so much" threads can go.

MackleDogeAug 1, 20141 votes

Thanks for your input. I can see what you're saying about this. I'd say overall as far as the advice threads go in regards to a specific game, they would most likely go in Champions & Gameplay, due to the gameplay side of it and the information in the ensuing discussion being quite likely to revolve around game mechanics, champion information, and general gameplay and game flow.

I think it is certainly valid to say that players being able to acquire some degree of catharsis has value, but I'm not sure I can agree on the reasoning that just because threads are going to be made means they should be acceptable. People are going to make threads flaming Riot or other players, threads whining about "omgz afKRsss", and the like. While that might help the poster cope with some personal feelings and issues, I don't think that the value of that is worth the sacrifice of it being done in an unconstructive (or flat out negative) manner.

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

People are going to make threads flaming Riot or other players, threads whining about "omgz afKRsss", and the like.

I might be a bit more forward-thinking than most here, but generally speaking I think this type of thread is fine.

collective gasp

The underlying idea is sound, and I think it's really important that's preserved. That being said, the tone of "omgz afKRsss" is obviously completely unacceptable. Allowing the community to make threads that are relatively unsubstantiated as long as they are even remotely constructive is pretty important, especially when open communication is so key. Take the following example:

"Riot, why the hell haven't you fixed AFKers"

lots of QQ about AFKers

To me, this thread actually has value. It allows players that might not have the time/ability to make a really well-thought-out thread and those that feel extremely strongly about an issue to be heard. This player has clearly had a bad experience with AFKers, it's useful to see that feedback and potentially discuss improvements. Do I agree with the tone? No. Do I think the message is important? Yes.

TL;DR: There's a fine line between constructive criticism and outright negativity, and while it's important to find that line it's also crucial to make sure players don't feel threatened out of expressing themselves.

MackleDogeAug 1, 20141 votes

I'll concede the perceivable value of a thread like that in the respect that it lets people vent, but I don't think it has the sort of value you think it does. Having been in numerous threads like that (and that's another issue, I'm sorry, but even if it has some value, it doesn't have "lets post the same thread 10 times and all circle jerk them" value) I don't see people coming up with ideas or trying to take the complaints and discuss solutions. The fact that the thread itself starts on a negative tone and mentality leads the discussion to be a lot of flaming, a lot of complaining, and a lot of insulting. I wouldn't mind the creation of these threads if it lead into something constructive even if that was negative toned. The fact is they don't though and that is why I don't think they have any place in this forum. I don't think instituting a guideline that requires players to make their post in a constructive manner, or at least construct the thread in a manner that prompts discussion, not witch hunting and flaming, threatens players out of expressing themselves. Personally I just feel it requires them to take the effort to actually construct something worth reading. Why should the community, or Riot for that matter, value anything that happens in a thread full of bashing and negativity? If a player can't be bothered to take the time to construct a meaningful and thought out thread or post, then I don't believe their feedback has much value, nor should it.

From my perspective its a lot like the following (simplified a bit for obvious reasons, there is a lot of grey territory here):

Person A and Person B (A, B) both have a bad game they lost because of an AFK.

A makes a thread titled "I'm really tired of damn AFKs, what do we do about it?" Inside the thread his post is a sob story about how he lost the game from an AFK and lost some LP. He complains about losing, fails to actually mention how he played or what he could improve, but does ask about a new system for AFKs and asks for ideas and suggestions. This is a QQ thread and a sob story, but Person A constructs it in a manner that lets them complain and vent, while still inciting a discussion around a fix or solution.

B makes a thread titled "Fuck Rito and theyre Shit Game!!!!11!!". Inside the thread the player flames the AFK, blames the AFK for everything and then insults Riot and the player saying they deserved that win and they demand their LP for the game back. This is a QQ thread that is clearly negative and offers no basis for a constructive discussion or sharing of ideas. This player may feel better after making the post, but they do so in a manner that is inappropriate and shouldn't be allowed in this community.

To me, this rule change is about encouraging Person B to not post what they are posting, because honestly, I don't think they deserve the catharsis they get from it. I don't see anything wrong with requiring them to post in a slightly more constructive manner like Person A, despite Person A having some negative feelings and complaining in their thread. The guideline is to distinguish between what is overly negative and inappropriate to post here and to help players construct a negative thread in a more discussion focused manner, so they can vent their feelings while also provide some ideas and valuable feedback.

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

not witch hunting and flaming

Players attacking an individual or group in a way that could be considered severe

Players making baseless complaints or contesting private matters that isn't relevant to an active discussion ~ Montag

This sort of thing is already in the Universal Rules, so ideally it shouldn't be happening in the first place. Person B's thread in your given example is very much against the rules already, and special clauses in each board wouldn't really change anything.

I guess I wasn't clear with my AFKers example. Here are maybe some bullet points I would've considered to be valid:

This just not OK, I've had AFKers in my games all day long
Why isn't this fixed? For real, this is getting ridiculous
We've had to deal with this for years with no changes

etc.

These are aggressive comments and are relatively baseless, but they aren't flaming and definitely have value. They come pretty close to the idea you put forth about Person A and are still a far cry from Person B's flaming and general negativity. Yes, the thread might promote a circlejerk, but if it's handled correctly it shouldn't be a problem.

MackleDogeAug 1, 20142 votes

Ignoring the obvious joke about circle jerk and handling correctly.....

So while that rule already exists, I feel like that rule doesn't do a sufficient job of limiting the negative and unconstructive threads that take place on the boards. Just because the thread doesn't have a severe personal attack doesn't mean it should be acceptable to spam a bunch of QQ and unproductive whining to make yourself feel better. At some point, as this community grows, some quality control is going to be required, or this just turns into GD with a new format.

The rest of your post

Alright, I kind of misinterpreted what you were saying, that's entirely my fault, apologies. Titles like those irk me, but I'm more concerned with the OP inside the thread and how it sets up the conversation in the thread. I guess we might just disagree as to whether or not anything productive and helpful can come out of those negative circle jerks, which is perfectly fine. Regardless, I really appreciate your input and candor.

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

Ignoring the obvious joke about circle jerk and handling correctly.....

Please, take every upvote I can offer. (I totally didn't notice that... xD)

Anyhoo, personally I just don't feel an additional rule in the boards will make this sort of thread any less likely. If someone is intent on flaming, it's going to happen. Ideally it would be immediately removed by a moderator, but a rule isn't going to stop people from whining.

I dunno, personally I find value in circlejerks sometimes as long as it's a legitimate concern. If there are people all feeding each other's fires on an issue, clearly it's something players are passionate about. Obviously something like "f u Riot, Sona is sh*t now, go suck a d" isn't conducive to conversation, but "Thanks for ruining Sona, Riot", might be.

It's really a balancing act as you mentioned, though generally speaking the community is pretty good about downvoting the threads that really shouldn't be a thing. GD is a bit different because the community is distilled into...erm...well...something, but I haven't noticed much flaming on the Boards at all. It happens, of course, but it's usually removed from sight relatively quickly with moderator action, downvotes, and reporting.

Angry MonsterAug 1, 20141 votes

Forward thinking maybe not, babying others might be better. Forward thinking is like a white person helping with civil rights of blacks in the 50s and 60s. Saying that people can say what they want on the interenet has been a thing since the 90s. It is time to reign in shallow posts, my opinion.

Why is it ok to baseless complain in on the forum? Nothing of value comes form OMG KASS OP nerf now threads, or 13 AKS games straight. No action is taken from these types of threads.

Action is taken when real information is included. Kass is OP cause magic shield with .8 ratios is very strong with the rest of kit. Or why am I getting so many AFKs is this a Lyte experiment or are there connections issues for part of the country? These are examples of meaningful dialogue/posts. Looking for answers or expressing thoughtful reasoning.

from riot on a deleted post. We want to keep the low content posts to a minimum, as there are a lot of people who use these boards regularly. Before you post, you should ask yourself if the message that you are writing is informative, interesting or contributes to the conversation in a constructive manner. If you can answer yes to any of the above, go ahead and post. Otherwise, please try to keep low content messages to a minimum.

How can a woe is me thread be considered valuable content based of this msg? You say it is a fine line but i think the line is wider than you and easy to see.

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

Generally speaking, my reasoning is that it allows players to express strong opinions without needing to be perfectly clear and/or have suggestions as to how to fix a problem.

These are the sorts of points I'm referring to in the post to which you're replying:

This just not OK, I've had AFKers in my games all day long
Why isn't this fixed? For real, this is getting ridiculous
We've had to deal with this for years with no changes

etc.

They are aggressive and relatively baseless comments, but they aren't flaming and definitely have value. There are times where people have a valid opinion and want to provide discussion but aren't able to articulate it in such a way that's totally clear and outlines their exact problems with something.

Angry MonsterAug 1, 20141 votes

I am kool with aggressive with logic. I like aggressive means you believe what you say. but you need logic and/or reasons

Why isn't this fixed? can be a logical post. Saying why isnt poppy fixed yet when we know the answer not legit. Saying X bug exists and not dealt with is ok. I feel the difference here is that one is posting to post, the other is calling attention to a real issue that riot may or may not have thought they addressed. Something about foramtting helps here, or how it is stated.

We had to deal with X year posts. I am not even sure i have seen this type of thread before. Like the pantheon ult thing? I feel that was more of a undocumented change than we delt with X for years. (might not be what you meant.) I think these posts should be consider something else base on content.

P.S. formatting is hard, i am jealous.....

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

one is posting to post, the other is calling attention to a real issue

The difference between "This is not fixed, you are dropping the ball" and "This is not fixed, you suck" is pretty slight, but it becomes really significant when you think about it. The first is pretty aggressive but encourages conversation, the second is outright negativity. To me, that's a pretty fine line.

It obviously comes down to preference and a case-by-case basis, but logical aggression isn't far from illogical aggression at face value.

P.S. formatting is hard, i am jealous.....

My job is literally "write well", so don't be. :)

Willahelm FulberAug 1, 20143 votes

Here's my suggestion - Something my favourite old forums always had: A rant forum. I feel that LoL's Boards should have something similar: whether it's a tangent about every single game you get or a single discussion about how other lanes never ward (among other prevailing problems), I feel this board could be pretty useful. Another possible feature is an "ignore board" button for the boards home; if you don't want to read things from Memes and Games you shouldn't have to, not to mention how useful it would be for the rants board.

As for a rants board, the thing about it is, I don't expect rants to become "hot topics" and so I feel like nobody really has to look at rants unless they care about how others feel and how they can help others.

MackleDogeAug 1, 20141 votes

This is a really interesting suggestion, thank you for bringing it up! I actually think this has some potential, especially when combined with a feature that allows you to ignore a specific board and the posts on it. Here are my questions for you in regards to this suggestion:

Would the Universal Rules apply to this board?

Would there be any additional rules or guidelines applied to this board?

What would you expect moderation of this board to be like?

Do you think there is any potential for abuse? (IE, people using the rant boards to spam links or get around other rules like Naming and Shaming)

Willahelm FulberAug 2, 20141 votes

I feel that the Universal Rules might not need to apply to said board, but one of the rules might be something like "rants only" and "no spamming."

The board would probably only require moderation like I said above, because the board's mostly about sob stories and sympathising.

As for abuse, I can't really think of anything because it's kind of got only 2 rules: to be about rants, and to not be spammed. Spamming links isn't a rant, and as for naming and shaming, I don't think I know what you're talking about unless it's when 1 person rants about his/her game and another says "Oh, that was you? YOU SUCKED!" I think that might have to be a necessary risk.

MackleDogeAug 2, 20141 votes

Naming and Shaming is the forum behavior of making a post or thread with the intent to point out a specific individual and flame, insult, degrade, or otherwise talk about them in a negative fashion. The most common occurrence of Naming and Shaming is someone making a post about a bad game or a situation of toxicity and including the chat log or pictures of whatever behavior is being elicited. For example, if I make a post saying that you are a feeder and toxic and either insult you or ask Riot to ban you for feeding or whatever then attached a screenshot of you saying something in game or copy and paste from lobby chat, that would be a Naming and Shaming post. It's closely related to witch hunting behavior and is something that Riot has said repeatedly is unacceptable behavior for the forums and will be deleted and potentially earn the poster a ban.

Willahelm FulberAug 2, 20141 votes

Hmm... Perhaps it could be something like what people do on pictures of facebook posts. Every name (besides yours) in screenshots / chat copy/pastes should be blotted out. Or, the post can be edited by mods and the names removed / chatlog(or pictures) removed.

MackleDogeAug 2, 20141 votes

Blacking out the names and replacing when spoken of by saying Summoner "X" (X being a number) is the typical work around that is used.

Willahelm FulberAug 2, 20141 votes

Kind of what I'm saying. Perhaps only 3 rules

No Spamming
Rants only
No Naming&Shaming.

MackleDogeAug 2, 20141 votes

Alright, thanks a lot for your input!

Willahelm FulberAug 2, 20142 votes

I don't think it's really "input" as much as it is an alternative idea. There are pros and cons to yours, as well as pros and cons to mine. Having "no sob stories" listed as a rule (even though it's probably already one of those unwritten ones) or having a board specifically made for sob stories, depends.

MackleDogeAug 2, 20141 votes

Either way, other perspectives, ideas, and suggestions are always welcome in any of my discussions, so I'm grateful for the time you've spent here and the insight you've brought from your perspective.

Sir ArmaMalumAug 1, 20142 votes

You guys did something because this post is now pinned. I'm assuming I beat Tamat or someone else here before they can put in their own input, but I feel like this being put up into major consideration

MackleDogeAug 1, 20141 votes

Is it? Well, I welcome the discussion it brings. You have any feedback for me or suggestions to improve the concept?

Sir ArmaMalumAug 1, 20142 votes

No, 2bh you and Daen really hit most of the points I would have lol. I may think of something later though :P

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

shrugs I'm not sure. I am however curious as to why this was pinned, but maybe we'll see shortly.

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

shrugs I'm not sure. I am however curious as to why this was pinned, but maybe we'll see shortly.

Or maybe not.

Sir ArmaMalumAug 1, 20142 votes

The way I see it is it's not a 'fun' thread so it doesn't make a PotD, but it is a nice suggestion that may need exposure a larger group before major consideration. This could be a nice precedent to future Board suggestions.

DaenAug 1, 20141 votes

It would certainly be a good precedent, though it'd also be useful to mention the reasoning behind pinning it.

Angry MonsterAug 1, 20142 votes

You made POST OF THE DAY. congrats.

I like this idea. I hate WOE is me threads that are just complaining and then saying going to mute at the start of every game. They are just circle jerks and nothing of value is gained expect 5 people agree with him.

Willahelm FulberAug 3, 20141 votes

Complains about people not actually criticizing, only agreeing continues to only agree.

You offer no constructional discussion with this comment. It's a pet peeve of mine, but the fact you pointed it out yourself makes me laugh.

But seriously, there's an upvote/downvote button if you simply agree/disagree. The comments/discussion is for pushing the thought processes of everyone who reads it. Is there another alternative to his idea we aren't considering? Dare you play the "Devil's Advocate" and tell us why we SHOULDN'T implement his idea?

Sorry if it sounds like a whole bunch of disrespect towards you, Kchaosrei, but I certainly feel your thoughts on what I said in the above paragraph will be valued by me and others. You're a human being, just like me, probably a nicer person overall and life has probably been harder on you than it has on me. Give us your 2 cents on the matter. :)

Angry MonsterAug 3, 20142 votes

If you check of some other sub posts in this thread i have actually gotten deeper. While i would not call MackleDoge a friend(do not know him enough) i would call him a respected worker(sry can not get the spelling for aquentece with spell checker). This one post was directly for him and expected to be ignored by the majority. He knows of me also as a passerby and i wanted to do more that just up vote a thread. We tend to have similar thoughts on things and i wanted to show that i agreed with him.

That said i posted in other sub posts in this thread with deeper meaning and had a few pleasant exchanges already.

Some times things are for the OP. Somethings are meant for greater dialogue. I am not betraying my thoughts on this since he has substance in the first/ original post. I do not feel that i should have to hash and rephrase everything if I agree. Just saying i do should be enough. Everyone should be able to jump in and say agree or not.

Upvote/down vote is so stupid (another thread and been covered) and does not show how many agreed or disagree. Also down votes real purpose is bury threads not to express agreement or disagreement. I have disagreed with plenty of threads and posted and did not vote. Why? cause I like the exchange of ideas. If its a worthy topic and and debate is happening kool. If its the self righteous is getting personal with attacks to the dissenters then i down vote.