Why can we not afk if we get a troll that runs down every lane and feeds?

waitthisisntdota·Dec 8, 2016·11 votes·943 views

I refuse to waste 20 minutes playing a 4v6 and I'm sure a lot of people would agree.. isn't there an idea to fix this very common problem?

edit: the responses in this thread makes me realise how retarded this community is lmao, you all need to kill yourselves cuz you're literally too stupid to be worth anything, to anybody, just die fucking dumb %%%%s this point is to be able to surrender earlier than 20 minutes and you can't even understand something so simple

25 Comments

SarutobiDec 8, 20165 votes

So how would go about fixing this? They can't just make it so anyone can leave because what's stopping people from just leaving for any reason? People will abuse this kind of power if they were able to get a free pass from leaving because of someone trolling/feeding. Let alone how difficult it would be to prove on abnormal cases.

waitthisisntdotaDec 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

So how would go about fixing this? They can't just make it so anyone can leave because what's stopping people from just leaving for any reason? People will abuse this kind of power if they were able to get a free pass from leaving because of someone trolling/feeding. Let alone how difficult it would be to prove on abnormal cases.

They need create a way where the system senses that someone is intentionally feeding (which should be easy to do c'mon) and once the system identifies an intentional troll the team with the troll can choose to surrender early (still a defeat). The troll would be banned from ranked for however long and the losers would still lose the normal amount of LP, this way there is no way of exploiting it

why haven't they implemented something so simple yet so effective?

Azure HamsterDec 8, 20165 votes

{quoted}

They need create a way where the system senses that someone is intentionally feeding (which should be easy to do c'mon)

I take it you have never programmed AI before. This is a very difficult task, particularly considering how important it is that trolls not be able to fool the system.

Caitlyn

fumiefanDec 8, 20161 votes

I don't think it would be that hard. You just have to mathematically define what feeding is and I'd say it's double(or more) the amoun of the team's death average divided by the amount of minutes played.

If this is happening consistently, you check the chat logs, items built, gold earned and chat and I promise it will clear the air.

I would also add something in there where if a user is buying multiples of one item that aren't wards or pots or other basic items, it should put up a flag.

Azure HamsterDec 8, 20162 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it would be that hard. You just have to mathematically define what feeding is

That is a very hard problem. And remember, you must define it in a way such that you get no false positives for times when people have a genuinely unintentionally bad game.

(I know argument from authority is a logical fallacy, so I say this only to give background for my answer, not to prove it is true: I have been a professional game developer for 15 years, and a hobbyist for 30.)

Caitlyn

fumiefanDec 8, 20161 votes

I don't think it would be that hard. You just have to mathematically define what feeding is and I'd say it's double(or more) the amoun of the team's death average divided by the amount of minutes played.

If this is happening consistently, you check the chat logs, items built, gold earned and chat and I promise it will clear the air.

I would also add something in there where if a user is buying multiples of one item that aren't wards or pots or other basic items, it should put up a flag.

waitthisisntdotaDec 8, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Hamster,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=vx5Fd6EH,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-08T16:03:24.514+0000)

I take it you have never programmed AI before. This is a very difficult task, particularly considering how important it is that trolls not be able to fool the system.

If they made an A.I to sense when someone is extremely toxic and needs a ban, then this should be easy

DestaiceDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If they made an A.I to sense when someone is extremely toxic and needs a ban, then this should be easy

Different behavioral groups. It's easy to detect overuse of profanity or aggression. "Kill yourself" isn't something that people normally say.

Feeding is different. Unless the person admits to it there's no easy way to confirm what is and is not intentionally feeding.

Somebody could be cussing out their team while feeding. The feeding isn't intentional the person is just bad and blaming the team.

It's not that simple

Azure HamsterDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If they made an A.I to sense when someone is extremely toxic and needs a ban, then this should be easy

Again, you don't understand. The toxic thing is not as hard a problem. Someone who's toxic types a bunch of chat, suddenly, all players are typing. Certain words show up a lot. It's an easier behavior to understand and detect though it is still a hard problem.

I can't back this up, but my theory is that they had a system they thought might work, but they had to avoid false positives. So they opened Tribunal, and had players vote on what should be punished and what should not. They ran the AI on the same data in parallel. With tons and tons of data from humans judging cases, they tuned the AI so it would A) detect as many toxic situations as possible B) have no false positives. The B part of this is the tough one. They cannot afford to have legitimate players getting caught up in their punishment system. This experiment ran for over a year with hundreds of thousands of cases, if not more.

That's how I would have approached the problem, anyway.

The problem you're talking about isn't just the result of chat, which is just a text file easily parsed by humans and computers alike in a short period of time. It's an aggregate of behavior over the course of the game including where they walk, how they choose targets, and what gets them killed. A Tribunal for this issue would involve serving up full replays for people to go over.

Given the amount of time and effort they've put into player-behavior systems, I am certain that if they could have solved this problem, they would have.

Who knows; maybe they're working on it right now. But trust me, it is a hard problem.

Caitlyn

SarutobiDec 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

They need create a way where the system senses that someone is intentionally feeding (which should be easy to do c'mon) and once the system identifies an intentional troll the team with the troll can choose to surrender early (still a defeat). The troll would be banned from ranked for however long and the losers would still lose the normal amount of LP, this way there is no way of exploiting it

why haven't they implemented something so simple yet so effective?

So you basically want the system to have it where the troller wins? I mean their end game is that the people on their team is punished. Whether it's something small as losing an x-amount of LP, or have them actually punished by the system (like chat ban or temp/permaban) if they are reason why their team lost why punish the people on their team?

There is no easy way to have something like this because of how the game is played. There has to be one loser and one winner,but when someone can make the whole team lose, what happens then? Yes the person in question gets punished,but you shouldn't punish the bystanders because of the fault of one person.

With that said about the whole getting a system to find feeders. Not only would that be difficult to program, but exactly how would you determine when someone feeds and when someone is just playing badly? Not only that if you put a number on it how would that work with say Supports? Normally someone who plays supports would take a death if it means someone power on their team is alive! By your logic the system would consider that feeding and have that person punish which is wrong.

All in all this is a touchy subject which is the reason why something hasn't been implemented yet. It's difficult not only to program but how would you create it with the intentions of only catching the bad guys and never punishing innocent people?

FREE C MURDERDec 8, 20161 votes

THE TROLLER WINS WHEN THE GAME IS A LOSS AND THEREFORE EVERYONE LOSES

waitthisisntdotaDec 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So you basically want the system to have it where the troller wins? I mean their end game is that the people on their team is punished. Whether it's something small as losing an x-amount of LP, or have them actually punished by the system (like chat ban or temp/permaban) if they are reason why their team lost why punish the people on their team?

There is no easy way to have something like this because of how the game is played. There has to be one loser and one winner,but when someone can make the whole team lose, what happens then? Yes the person in question gets punished,but you shouldn't punish the bystanders because of the fault of one person.

With that said about the whole getting a system to find feeders. Not only would that be difficult to program, but exactly how would you determine when someone feeds and when someone is just playing badly? Not only that if you put a number on it how would that work with say Supports? Normally someone who plays supports would take a death if it means someone power on their team is alive! By your logic the system would consider that feeding and have that person punish which is wrong.

All in all this is a touchy subject which is the reason why something hasn't been implemented yet. It's difficult not only to program but how would you create it with the intentions of only catching the bad guys and never punishing innocent people?

what you guys aren't getting is that the purpose of my solution isn't to make the "troll" lose at their game, it's so people can surrender sooner and not have to wait 20 minutes and also it gets trollers banned more quickly than now

Telephone BoothDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They need create a way where the system senses that someone is intentionally feeding (which should be easy to do c'mon) and once the system identifies an intentional troll the team with the troll can choose to surrender early (still a defeat). The troll would be banned from ranked for however long and the losers would still lose the normal amount of LP, this way there is no way of exploiting it

why haven't they implemented something so simple yet so effective?

Meh I agree they do need to come up with a way to fix this... but that idea has holes. People are clever and would feed a little less but be equally useless. They could find a way around an automated detection system.

Maybe if you queued with the person who trolls, you also lose LP and everything like the troll. Does that prevent the abuse of a smurf just inting on purpose so his friends don't lose LP? Might have holes, but I just thought of that and can't think of anything immediately bad about it. But there's still a problem of detecting the troll... a vote system would be terrible. They could do this for AFK's though.

Wolftastic33Dec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They need create a way where the system senses that someone is intentionally feeding (which should be easy to do c'mon) and once the system identifies an intentional troll the team with the troll can choose to surrender early (still a defeat). The troll would be banned from ranked for however long and the losers would still lose the normal amount of LP, this way there is no way of exploiting it

why haven't they implemented something so simple yet so effective?

if it is so simple, then why don't you program it for them?

DestaiceDec 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They need create a way where the system senses that someone is intentionally feeding (which should be easy to do c'mon)

have you ever done coding?

Dapper HatDec 9, 20161 votes

Surrender timers start at 5 minutes. Problem solved.

Maximum MordeDec 8, 20161 votes

Because ur mom loves ur dad

waitthisisntdotaDec 8, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=vx5Fd6EH,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-12-08T12:38:07.597+0000)

Because ur mom loves ur dad

no she doesn't, he used to beat her that's why me and my mum left when I was around 6

FREE C MURDERDec 8, 20161 votes

so does ur dad beat u now?

fumiefanDec 8, 20161 votes

Can't sadly which is why the trolls have all of the power right now.

And the only thing you can do - try to get them to stop, is seen as negative attitude and will get you reported every single time.

Morality CoachDec 8, 20161 votes

This game made me more relaxed in martial arts sparring.

Dealing with the trolling, ignoring it and not becoming upset will improve your life a lot.

KVbqbFsC8eDec 9, 20161 votes

Riot believes in 100% automated punishment systems that take virtually no context into account, so all types of offenses are treated virtually the same regardless of circumstances.

RevelstokeDec 10, 20161 votes

Whats crazy about this thread, lets be real here, is the number of people defending Riot because this is a hard problem, and not the fact they've had this as a really serious problem for 4+ years now and haven't done anything at all about it.

Good job Riot! you've convinced your playerbase that even though your game is a swampland, and that they are going to have lots and lots of horrible experiences and even though you are not working on doing anything about it, its still a requirement that you sit the game out, continuing to have a bad experience for 20+ minutes.