Poorly designed chat policy

Beldin Sorcerer·Oct 2, 2017·4 votes·1,504 views

You have a policy that basically punishes people who defend themselves from abuse.

You further abuse these people by a) suspending them and b) not giving them the entire context of the discussion so they can easily demonstrate they were defending themselves.

The people starting fights are the problem, not the people defending themselves from such abuse, and your policy is incredilebly poor in its lack of ability to discern this and completely unfair that you cannot appeal because of this.

Basically, you're acting like your uses are six year olds, punishing anyone who fights, not the idiots who start the fight and allowing self defense. Which you may have to do with kindergarten kids, but since you can actually READ the entire log and SEE who started in on whom, this should NEVER be an issue,..,, yet your entire policy is to employ no critical thinking skills at all, just punish everyone

137 Comments

ChermorgOct 2, 20178 votes

Please explain to me any instance where this "defense" has resulted in cessation of or diminishing of the abuse? People are trolling/flaming you, they won't stop because you flame back.
Fighting fire with fire and fighting back turns a situation of 1 toxic player into 2. The other 8 people now have to deal with 2 children in an argument, not just one.

Its RevengeOct 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Please explain to me any instance where this "defense" has resulted in cessation of or diminishing of the abuse? People are trolling/flaming you, they won't stop because you flame back.

Fighting fire with fire and fighting back turns a situation of 1 toxic player into 2. The other 8 people now have to deal with 2 children in an argument, not just one.

In the same sense then people should just have to mute if they do they like what someone says if you punish people that engage in it. Mute is there for a reason, why nobody is condemed for not just using it is illogical.

ChermorgOct 2, 20175 votes

Mute is there to give people a way to prevent themselves from having to see more abuse. It is not there to give abusers an excuse to abuse in the first place.

KartagiaOct 30, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Mute is there to give people a way to prevent themselves from having to see more abuse. It is not there to give abusers an excuse to abuse in the first place.

And that muting does not stop abuse. You forget that target audience of abuse is not victim, but 8 or 3 other players. Without right to defend yourself, the rules violator has free reign to convince rest of team, and even enemy team, to report you with lies and deception.

Thus muting does not stop abuse. It does hide abuse from victim. it does not stop abuse. And report system does not remove toxic people from game. I have solid proof of eune.op.gg. that totally toxic players got away with their behavior and are still playing.

Would you tell me how muting and reporting does fix the problem except it gives Riot reason to tell victims "STFU! You are victim because you deserve it!" -attitude.

ChermorgOct 30, 20171 votes

Sure, they can mass report you. You won't get punished if you didn't do anything wrong though.

Further, the majority of the time, your team will also be ignoring the flamer/troll, and so actually won't be reporting you at all!

Toxic players get banned all the time - look at these boards for many, many examples.

KartagiaNov 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Sure, they can mass report you. You won't get punished if you didn't do anything wrong though.

Further, the majority of the time, your team will also be ignoring the flamer/troll, and so actually won't be reporting you at all!

Toxic players get banned all the time - look at these boards for many, many examples.

If you are not native speaker of English, you cannot talk without appearing rude. Also, trolling report does not require any action on victim. It is solid report requiring not a single word. And yes, I do break rules, as I cannot stand bullies go without being scolded or without defending falsely accused victims. RIot made defensing summoner's code violation of summoner's code.

Beldin SorcererNov 8, 20171 votes

That's false. You can EASILY get punished despite not doing anything wrong. Perception overrules reality with poorly designed policies in place

ChermorgNov 8, 20171 votes

Please provide an example of a case where someone was punished despite doing absolutely nothing wrong.

PresBushDid711Oct 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Revenge,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=tUeJmstk,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-02T23:38:57.823+0000)

In the same sense then people should just have to mute if they do they like what someone says if you punish people that engage in it. Mute is there for a reason, why nobody is condemed for not just using it is illogical.

So we should just assume everyone is not going to be able to control themselves and mute everyone at the start?

Or they could just have a ToS that gets rid of the people that cant control themselves.

Beldin SorcererOct 3, 20171 votes

Once you're IN a ranked game, you are risking LP. You shouldn't BE there if you aren't there to win. Assuming you ARE, you want someone toxic to STOP and get back to trying to win, not merely get to where you can't read them.

It is counterproductive to mute them.

Imperial PandaaOct 3, 20172 votes

I'm not seeing how it is counter productive. Arguing with them is since now 2 are typing instead of focusing. Ignoring long enough and they may get bored and go back to the game.

Hell, have played multiple games where literally the only thing said was "gj, ty, and welcome." Everything else was done via pings. Yes a ranked game, no not in a voice comm, and silver elo so average joes.

Beldin SorcererOct 4, 20171 votes

I've played games on a crappy computer. The game goes much better on a good computer. Your "argument" is a logical fallacy.

One needs to be allowed to maximize the likelihood of winning in ranked.

If riot wants to kill chat entirely for everyone, that's a level playing field. It's not remotely the best approach but it is far more fair than the current system

Imperial PandaaOct 4, 20171 votes

No, your counter would be a fallacy. Because you have moved from a known circumstance involving a chat box, to instead comparing it to set ups for playing. Quality of the computer doesn't make a difference with typing, unless they haave a game pad thing like in VGHS.

And for some, muting team mates may maximize it so they can focus on playing.

The playing field is leveled, because everyone has the option to use, not use, mute, or not mute. I've already given my examples of silver games when there is bare minimum typing and yet victory still was achieved.

Beldin SorcererOct 7, 20171 votes

You obviously failed logic.

Analogies are analogies. They are logical arguments. The fact that you don't grasp that speaks to your lack of logic training

The point is basic : In ranked especially, you need to be allowed to do whatever it takes to maximize your chances of winning. The fact that you may win a game under adverse conditions doesn't change the fact that your BEST chance of winning is under the least bad set of conditions

The playing field is NOT level at all if one team has full chat and the other doesn't.

Imperial PandaaOct 7, 20171 votes

You are resorting to personal attacks, which can be turned back to you as well.

You seem to think it is up to you to decide what is best for everyone to maximize their chance of winning. Sometimes to make the least bad set of conditions is to mute or not chat.

It is level since every single person has access to the exact same functions in game.

Check your own logic.

Beldin SorcererOct 15, 20171 votes

No, I am not remotely resorting to personal attacks.

Stating you failed logic, or appear to have, is an observation based on your illogical post. That isn't remotely personal.

I don't think it is "up to" anyone. I submit any policy that HINDERS the ability to do so is poorly thought out and ignorant.

It is NOT a level playing field if one has to mute someone. If you can't see that, then you don't understand the concept of "level playing field" at all

Imperial PandaaOct 15, 20171 votes

Your logic is flawed. I find your posts to be illogical. Yet, here I am, still trying to hold a discussion.

The playing field is level because everyone has the same tools in game and everyone has the same chance to have a problem on their team. Just like everyone has the chance of getting a smurf on their team that can 1v5.

Other games allow you to mute team members too. Apparently it is a common theme.

Beldin SorcererOct 20, 20171 votes

That's not a level playing field. You're logical fallacy today is moving the goal posts.

Shifting it to a statistical possibility of adversarial issues doesn't change the fact that people in that circumstance are forced into a suboptimal situation rather than be allowed to maximize their chances of winning.

zPOOPzOct 2, 20175 votes

Mute is there to prevent you from seeing further toxicity.

Report is there to prevent other people from seeing the flamer in the future.

Mute and report are NOT 2 mutually exclusive functions. Having or using one does not and should not prevent you from having or using the other...

Kei143Oct 3, 20172 votes

If the mute was used against someone specifically, then the damage was already done.

Beldin SorcererOct 3, 20172 votes

Muting is BAD in ranked. It LOWERS your ability to communicate and makes it harder to win.

If riot wants to discontinue chat ENTIRELY, that's fine, but if it exists, you HAVE to use it to maximize your chances to win the damn game, or why bother PLAYING ranked

Imperial PandaaOct 3, 20172 votes

I'll repeat here.

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=tUeJmstk,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2017-10-03T05:00:59.066+0000)

I'm not seeing how it is counter productive. Arguing with them is since now 2 are typing instead of focusing. Ignoring long enough and they may get bored and go back to the game.

Hell, have played multiple games where literally the only thing said was "gj, ty, and welcome." Everything else was done via pings. Yes a ranked game, no not in a voice comm, and silver elo so average joes.

Beldin SorcererOct 7, 20171 votes

Anecdotal evidence does not trump systemic study

You get much better results shutting down the tilter and trying to get them to play to win

Imperial PandaaOct 7, 20171 votes

Please present your systematic study then. Mind you, if it only involves your experience, it is also anecdotal evidence.

This is your opinion still. Perhaps it may be fact (since a fact can be proved or disproved) once Riot does some sort of number crunching. Because you know, we don't have access to all the information we need to do it.

Beldin SorcererOct 15, 20171 votes

Five years of data across multiple seasons and multiple players

Imperial PandaaOct 15, 20171 votes

Which you still have not linked or cited. As such this evidence would be dismissed.

Beldin SorcererOct 20, 20171 votes

Systemic sampling has been done locally. It is not merely personal experience

Imperial PandaaOct 20, 20171 votes

Which you have still failed to cite or provide the data of to us.

Is it too difficult to make a digital copy to share with the masses?

Beldin SorcererOct 3, 20171 votes

Most of the time. Since this generally happens in ranked, and LP matter to most people, getting it clear that they're crapping on you incorrectly GENERALLY gets them to at least focus on winning the game
No, it doesn't. It makes it clear who IS being toxic. If you were raised to pander to abusers, I feel sorry for you, but actual adults do not put up with someone abusing them

ChermorgOct 3, 20173 votes

I have never, not once, nor has anyone I know, seen a player who is trolling/flaming stop suddenly just because you start to flame them back. It may make you feel a little better, but it certainly doesn't help the situation.
Really? Because if I see someone screaming and kicking, then see someone else jump in, I (and most normal players) don't care who started it, we just know there was one person abusing and now there's two.

Your attitude is that of the two "bros" at the bar that get into a fight over a girl, and so they both go outside and smash bottles over each others' heads. The bouncer kicks both of them out. It doesn't matter who started it, what matters is both of them were acting like children.

And actual adults, by the way, put up with the consequences of their actions and don't try and justify retaliation.

Beldin SorcererOct 4, 20171 votes

You obviously don't pay attention. I have, more times than I can count, seen someone who was flaming a number of people, get their mistakes pointed out and calm down enough to try and win.

My attitude is that of an adult who spends time and money trying to get better at this and wanting to be judged on skill, not on whether someone can't avoid tilting and yes, they absolutely can be righted some of the time

ChermorgOct 4, 20171 votes

I’ll accept that you have personal experience and I may have a different one, and that it’s likely neither of ours are the true reality of the situation experienced across the board.

Statistics show that people who do what you do lose more games. There’s even a tip in the client about that. Regardless of your personal experience, you doing that makes it less likely for your team to win, and makes at least 3 other people have to see your negativity which they don’t want to.

Beldin SorcererOct 7, 20171 votes

No, they don't.

That's a nonsense claim.

Having played for five years it is SO contrary to my experience that the number is almost certainly a complete fabrication

And no, most of the time the rest of the team sees the idiot is the problem, and often also join in trying to get him to stop being stupid.

Back when the tribunal was a thing, and you saw the entire chat log, there was much less of a problem. People saw the full context and punished the instigator only

ChermorgOct 7, 20171 votes

As someone who has participated in quite a number of tribunal cases back in the day, with very good accuracy, I can assure you that all involved were voted to punish back then as well.

Beldin SorcererOct 15, 20171 votes

As someone who ALSO did that, I can assure you, that is not remotely the case. Instigators were punished. Others were not

ShaftyMegeeOct 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Please explain to me any instance where this "defense" has resulted in cessation of or diminishing of the abuse? People are trolling/flaming you, they won't stop because you flame back.

Fighting fire with fire and fighting back turns a situation of 1 toxic player into 2. The other 8 people now have to deal with 2 children in an argument, not just one.

In real life I believe people should stand up for themselves.

On the internet... fighting back only makes the troll happier... It doesn't help to feed the troll.

Beldin SorcererNov 8, 20171 votes

It isn't just about yelling at them. It is often not trolling, but someone going on tilt, and you often CAN knock them off tilt and back into a functioning playmode where you might still win the game

zPOOPzOct 2, 20177 votes

Basically, you're acting like your uses are six year olds, punishing anyone who fights, not the idiots who start the fight and allowing self defense.

Ironically, only six years old (metaphorically speaking) thinks that when 2 people fight, ONLY the one who started the fight should be punished.

In the real world, when 2 people fight, BOTH get arrested regardless of who started it (trust me, self-defense is very well defined...)

Beldin SorcererOct 3, 20171 votes

You're completely wrong. In the real world, they punish the person who started the fight, and self defense is ALWAYS a valid defense.

How old are you? Have you no life experience at all? Did someone spoon feed you lies?

EvilDustManOct 3, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Beldin Sorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=tUeJmstk,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-10-03T03:06:54.894+0000)

You're completely wrong. In the real world, they punish the person who started the fight, and self defense is ALWAYS a valid defense.

How old are you? Have you no life experience at all? Did someone spoon feed you lies?

What you are missing here is that this isn't a fist fight. It's a shouting match. And no one wins a shouting match, each person just keeps escalating.

Beldin SorcererOct 4, 20171 votes

You are completely wrong. Quite often the TEAM wins. More often than not, the original ranter Calms down enough to finish the game trying, and you have a chance to win.

BlutseucheOct 5, 20172 votes

YOU are completly wrong.

Beldin SorcererOct 7, 20171 votes

Not in the slightest

BlutseucheOct 8, 20171 votes

Other people say youre wrong and they gave you arguments. You must be delusional if you think you still stand correct.

Beldin SorcererOct 8, 20171 votes

No, other people jumped to conclusions and assumed facts not in evidence or argued from the conclusion rather than from evidence.

Your entire post is a poor version of an appeal to authority.

BlutseucheOct 9, 20171 votes

You are the one who doesnt give evidence or any arguments. While others explain why youre wrong.

Sorry, but if you cant accept this, you are in denial.

Beldin SorcererOct 11, 20171 votes

Ah, your denial and delusions are completely illogical.

I offered plenty of evidence. You offered nothing but logical fallacies.

You MUST be some kind of troll

BlutseucheOct 11, 20171 votes

-Majority of the Boards user disagree with you. -The majority of the player base agree with the Instant Feedback System. -You get downvoted hella lot.

Ye, you are wrong. No need to discuss further.

Beldin SorcererOct 15, 20171 votes

You're lack of logic is showing again.

You don't vote on facts. You don't take opinion polls on science.

The policy is bad because it punishes a team in LP for having a troll or tilted person on the team.

You are wrong. You will continue to be wrong no matter how many -people click an up or down vote

BlutseucheOct 15, 20171 votes

Youre in denial.