Dodging Queue for Good Reasons

Snakebreaker·Aug 18, 2018·3 votes·3,111 views

I mainly play ADC and I have matched up with Supports that pick odd Champions like Yasuo, even in Draft games. In game, my experience will be utterly ruined while I grow ever more frustrated at this game (the players playing of course). However, dodging the champion select puts me in a time penalty before I can queue again.

I think this system (or lack of) is unfair toward players who takes the game a little more seriously than those who don't. Are the news from Riot regarding this problem? How do I minimize encounters such as this?

22 Comments

Imperial PandaaAug 18, 20182 votes

How do you know they aren't taking it seriously? Because they pick Yasuo support or something? Off Meta =/= Not serious.

If you want to dodge, that is your choice. You can dela with the repercussions of it.

SnakebreakerAug 18, 20183 votes

Friend, I do encourage off meta players.

But do not assume that all off meta Supports are good off meta Supports. If a player tells you that he only knows how to play Yasuo and will only play Yasuo at the expense of the team's composition ( since this is a team game), then I find it hard to not point a finger at that player.

Imperial PandaaAug 18, 20182 votes

Then that comes down to your choice. Would you rather have someone playing a champion they know well that is off meta, or a meta champ that they do not know well?

Imo, Yasuo wouldn't even be the worse support if they would start Relic to help with gold gen. The wind wall could help a lot. Issue becomes engage at that point.

And sorry, everytime I see that or similar I must make the reference: I'm not your friend, pal.

SnakebreakerAug 18, 20182 votes

Point taken. However my dear friend, lets not get too far here. You are missing the point. The point isn't whether if Yasuo is in or off meta, it is why dodging a queue due to an intentional bad pick results in the punishment of the dodger? You must have at least once in your life met a player that made a bad pick haven't you? And that is what I am trying to convey.

_And to answer your question, I do prefer them to play a champion that they do not know well so that they can learn to play without costing the other 4 players during team fight. I don't have to tell you the answer if you were to ask any decent ADC whether they prefer a Yasuo or (let's pick a meta support) Janna support. This is a team game and composition matters regardless of their skill in a particular champion.

Let's leave it at that. _

Imperial PandaaAug 18, 20181 votes

I feel like the reference joke was missed. ;-; anyways.

Here is the what I believe to be the problem. Who gets to decide what is and isn't a bad pick? Sorry, I'm not going to trust the players; and since Riot doesn't want to enforce a meta outside of lane assignments (pending agreement in unusual strats and trades), there really isn't anyone who can. It would become a matter of opinion per player.

Sure, I've had people make questionable picks. I've even made some questionable picks. If the game goes through, people seem to get a pleasant surprise.

And I will respectfully disagree. While I encourage people to learn multiple champions, I will leave it to their choice if they want to or not. Being a OTP is their choice. There will be pros and cons to each choice no matter what.

nyubyAug 19, 20181 votes

Love your reply. ^^ As a new player myself, I love to explore. And frankly, since my language isn't that great, trying to figure out what's going on isn't always easy.

I too take to dodging sometimes because I don't know how to play certain champs. And frankly, when I go in PVP, it's a hit-miss for me. I'm not doing it to exasperate or try to troll, or to make life difficult for people. I'm just trying to gain exposure since I find that bots move so much slower than real players. And in SR, for instance, the bots don't start to emerge until later. This gives a farming advantage initially. But how would I have known of that if I didn't take part in PvP? I would have assumed there was a lag each time.

~~It could also boil down to the fact that people think differently; something that makes sense to me may not make sense to you, and vice versa~~

I just wish there was a better way other than dodging, or that there would be a better training mode. Perhaps one where there is a training arena where people are just trying out random ideas? Sure, it might fail badly, but I've never been one to learn from theory. I can't imagine the theory enough.

I just wish there were some way to balance my needs more with the needs of the others around.

SnakebreakerAug 19, 20182 votes

Well said my friend. You are right, exploration is good and I commend your attitude when being clumped up with others who "explore" unhealthily. The meta we have now was developed by the then off meta players.

As you mentioned with the Training mode, perhaps a game mode where off meta compositions can be experimented with. And I do empathize with you regarding the "go play bots" jargon. The potential of a new meta cannot be explored with bots.

However, I'm afraid that will only serve to encourage these unhealthy explorers. Let's assume that the new Training mode is implemented. Soon you will have these "explorers" infiltrating Ranked games (the integrity of LoL) and they can justify themselves because Riot indirectly supported them.

Again, I believe common sense and the meta exists for a reason. I have no doubt that the meta will always perform more consistently than off metas. I would only suggest off meta players (such as yourself) to play in a group match. That is the only way currently that I can think of for it to work.

SnakebreakerAug 19, 20181 votes

Thank you for narrowing my thoughts. You are right, ultimately what is a good pick or bad pick can be highly subjective and down to personal opinion. However, there are certain principles (and common sense which human beings have....) that should guide our picks.

BUT it is when they defy all common sense (I still cannot foresee that Yasuo Support will EVER be viable at any degree), that I think dodging the game is completely justified.

Again I ask, should I be punished when players pick champions that cannot fit their DESIGNATED role (in a way that works to actually benefit the team, and not the players personal preference of a particular champion)? Of course, the problem remains the same, it is difficult for Riot to detect it. I am sure if Riot could they would.

nyubyAug 20, 20181 votes

One thing that someone wise once told me: Common sense is a misnomer! It's not at all common!

XD That's how I console myself when I think people don't employ "common sense" (as defined by me). Maybe it's a little like self-deception, but hey, if it makes me a happier person while keeping the place harmonious, I'm all for it!

I'm sure you'll find your own way of coping with things that don't make sense, though.

BTW, off-topic, but wondering: Is Riven support potentially viable? I'm wondering, because IN THEORY ANY champ can be support, right?

GreatWhiteNorthAug 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Point taken. However my dear friend, lets not get too far here. You are missing the point. The point isn't whether if Yasuo is in or off meta, it is why dodging a queue due to an intentional bad pick results in the punishment of the dodger? You must have at least once in your life met a player that made a bad pick haven't you? And that is what I am trying to convey.

It's because by dodging you've just wasted 9 other people's time. Say it took 30 seconds for you to dodge in select. That mean's you've wasted 4 minutes and 30 seconds, which is damn close to 5 minutes. Seems fair to me.

SnakebreakerAug 19, 20182 votes

An interesting comment. I have never thought of it that way. But your assumption becomes the down fall of your argument.

Are you saying that if your team sees an ADC Ivern pick it is an absolute good use of their time? Are you also saying that when a player decides to do something that will cost the team, and I, by taking an action which will result in me not losing my time knowing full well I will lose, a waste of time? As a matter of fact, one player who dodges saves the other three players in the team the dodge penalty.

I could lose 15 minutes (earliest FF time) or 30 seconds (as you used for champ select). So which one wastes more time? I am following your argument to its logical conclusion of course.

And my dear friend, if 9 players did wasted 30 seconds of their time, the total amount of time the 9 players wasted is still 30 second... Time and math does not add up like that...

Therefore, I find it hard to accept your opinion.

Now, I do not expect you to read the rest of the thread. But my thoughts on dodging and its penalty has found peace so I am in a sense replying to my older self.

GreatWhiteNorthAug 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

An interesting comment. I have never thought of it that way. But your assumption becomes the down fall of your argument.

Are you saying that if your team sees an ADC Ivern pick it is an absolute good use of their time? Are you also saying that when a player decides to do something that will cost the team, and I, by taking an action which will result in me not losing my time knowing full well I will lose, a waste of time? As a matter of fact, one player who dodges saves the other three players in the team the dodge penalty.

I could lose 15 minutes (earliest FF time) or 30 seconds (as you used for champ select). So which one wastes more time? I am following your argument to its logical conclusion of course.

And my dear friend, if 9 players did wasted 30 seconds of their time, the total amount of time the 9 players wasted is still 30 second... Time and math does not add up like that...

Therefore, I find it hard to accept your opinion.

Now, I do not expect you to read the rest of the thread. But my thoughts on dodging and its penalty has found peace so I am in a sense replying to my older self.

Having played before the time penalty, I can tell you with confidence, that most dodges would not due to adc iverns. They would be due to people not playing into their own counterpicks. The fact that you are unaware of this (I presume began playing long after the time penalty was introduced?), shows that the time penalty is doing its job very, very well.

theChibiTinaAug 19, 20181 votes

It depends on ranked or normals. Normals go with someone that should be in the role to learn and get better at them. (Unless of course you're experimenting with off meta picks.) Ranked go with someone you're familiar with so you don't cost the game if you got filled.

Yasuo engage would be his tornado. There are other supports that don't have good engage though. Like lulu. Lulu is more poke and protect.

(And since no one else followed up on your reference, I will. Lol.) I'm not your pal, buddy.

SnakebreakerAug 19, 20181 votes

The barrier between unranked and Ranked are quite thin in my opinion; a level 30 account with 20 champions unlocked. Even though I agree with your idea, most of the others do not. If you were to look at other Player Behavior posts right now, no doubt you will see people arguing that they are special snowflakes because they are off meta players. Four people must conform to the one player's champion.

I feel like the direction of this entire thread has gone a little askew but I am still very much happy over how it has developed. But I still must say this, if you do want to experiment regardless in ranked or not, do it with your friends.

And sorry to say this but, I'm not your buddy, guy.

theChibiTinaAug 19, 20181 votes

Most level 30 accounts (aside from surfs and permaban restarts) are new players who are learning and not all of them really know the meta or what should be played where. For more experienced accounts it is better to experiment while playing with friends because the tryhards get salty. Not everyone has friends that play the game though. People playing normals need to understand that the point of experimenting is to find unexpected good picks and it should be done in normals. It's not ranked, so it's more of a practice ground where bots are to easy and predictable. You need to know if it will work against real people. That's also why people will play meta champs that they're not familiar with there. To learn them and get comfortable with them. It's sad that people get so upset over normals. But I digress. Lol.

Also, I'm not your guy, friend.

AnAggravatedPimpAug 18, 20181 votes

You don't lose MMR for dodging. That's the compensation

The time penalty is in place so that matches can actually start and not hav players go through 20 lobbies beforehand

SnakebreakerAug 18, 20181 votes

Yes, I understand that. My point being; why should I be the one to receive the penalty? That is a rhetorical question of course.

I am only wondering if Riot is aware of this problem.

AnAggravatedPimpAug 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, I understand that. My point being; why should I be the one to receive the penalty? That is a rhetorical question of course. I am wondering if Riot is aware of this.

They are and that's why you don't lose MMR for dodging, because MMR determine your LP gains and losses. It's literally the only thing that matters so Riot made it so that dodging doesn't effect that.

Sgt Pepper 420Aug 18, 20181 votes

Why so tilted over what others pick in draft mode? In ranked, I understand getting a bit tilted.

As a support main, when I see ADC lock in Ivern (Yes, that actually happened once), I know I am going to lose LP if I play, so I dodge. First dodge of day = 5 minutes and a few LP. But way better than 20 minutes and 20 LP, so I do it and accept it. No loss of MMR, so next game if I win, I get back almost everything I lost from a first dodge of the day. Second dodge = 15 minutes. Now that sucks. And it frequently means I am done playing for the day... or at least for a while. I will find something else to do rather than sit tight for 15 minutes. AND the LP loss is higher. So now I get annoyed. But still, a 5 minute penalty that helps discourage people from dodging is ok by me. Alternative is that I look at my entire team on op.gg, look up their win rates on their selected champ and dodge every game where anyone on the team is sub 50% win rate? In that case, the number of dodges will make you wait MUCH longer than 5 minutes to find a game.

SnakebreakerAug 19, 20181 votes

My friend, your ability of perceiving anger through online words amazes me. I didn't even know that I was tilted myself.

All jokes aside, yes I empathize with your experience. However, just because there are no ranking system (Bronze, Silver, etc) in draft mode, doesn't mean that a player cannot be frustrated. I would argue that draft mode is worst than ranked since there are no stakes. Literally none. What is stopping them from going Ivern ADC? They do not lose LP. I am sure you understand where I am getting at.

Unlike you, I always play through any game, ranked or not, regardless if there are ADC Iverns or not. I know that dodging will help save some precious LP in light of a confirmed loss. It is just my thick skulled nature to be stubborn even though it causes my hair to grey faster and clinging on to the hopes of #comebackisreal. Not to mention that I always thought of dodging the same as quitting and I don't like that.

After so many replies and opinions on this post, the fact still stands (and to quote Imperial Panda); "If you want to dodge, that is your choice. You can deal with the repercussions of it." I now see that dodging is inevitable along with its penalty. Seeing the way you use the dodging system to your advantage gave me a new opinion on dodging. I suppose that Riot was aware of this problem and did give players a way out of it.

Thank you friend.

zPOOPzAug 19, 20181 votes

I would argue that draft mode is worst than ranked since there are no stakes. Literally none.

There is a stake for every game mode... TIME. Most people only have time to play so many games a day (some only 1). No one wants to be stuck with an ivern adc for potentially an hour if a good way out is a simple 5/15 minutes wait.

SnakebreakerAug 19, 20181 votes

I understand. I would have included time, but we are speaking of in game resources.