I typed these 6 sentences to a raging adc and I got banned for 2 weeks for verbal abuse?? Riot?

themachamp4·Feb 21, 2018·38 votes·12,364 views

Game 1 themachamp4: stop being toxic themachamp4: your not doing anything crying all chat themachamp4: glad you missed a potential engage to spill flaming stuff themachamp4: you stood still to stype flame themachamp4: dont blame 7 deaths on me themachamp4: why support flamers. legit flame me cause i try non meta

I know rioters rarely come to this section....but please explain how this is verbal abuse...much less 2 ban week worthy?

Yes, this is everything on the reform card.

https://imgur.com/AT51Bul

139 Comments

RiotRiot TantramFeb 21, 201856 votes

The data looks like you were trolling the jungler.

I see a lot of data supporting that when auto filled, you run around and don't do anything.

Feel free to open a support ticket and they can review all the info.

Masala ChaiFeb 21, 20187 votes

At the same time, shouldn't he have gotten a punishment card for intentional feeding or trolling, as opposed to negative comms? The comms themselves aren't overtly negative per se, so I think you might have a little programming (maybe after whatever other current projects you're working on) to do in order to better emphasize the clarity of the situation and that way we don't have to deal with a bunch of people on this forum confused by their punishment.

RiotRiot TantramFeb 21, 201829 votes

The system makes a best attempt at determining what type of information would be most useful for the player to understand their behavior and to give them evidence of why they were penalized.

In a very small number of cases, the evidence it chooses isn't the best. You can see in the chat logs that telling the other players there are crying, telling people they are toxic, talking about blame and flaming would be picked up as 'hey maybe this will help'.

We have a number of improvements coming in the feedback area, but are running them through a lot of tests.

In most cases the correct evidence is given, but there is always room for improvement.

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 21, 20184 votes

Then maybe don’t dole out punishments until your system works? It’s highly innaccurate from my experience.

RiotRiot TantramFeb 21, 201833 votes

The false positive rate is hardly anything that would indicate 'highly inaccurate'.

That false positive rate takes into account over-punish too. Out of every penalty there is less than a .010% chance of the penalty not being accurate. Not being accurate could mean it was a ban but should have been a chat restriction, or that player support decided to reduce the penalty for a first time offender.

We target the worst of the worst and chronic offenders. We understand that it is a competitive game and people have bad days from time to time.

Why do you feel the system is highly inaccurate? I see you have many penalties, showing that you are a chronic offender. You are one of the small percentage of players who experience these systems.

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 21, 20182 votes

“Chronic offender”? Really? I’ve been chat restricted for sticking up for myself after being flamed and trolled in 9 out of 10 games and the report system doing nothing to improve my experience. I rarely ever get a notification that some one toxic or someone trolling has been punished. My most recent chat restriction was explained to me by support as me “arguing”. Arguing is punishable and worthy of being labeled as “dishonorable” on my League profile? Seriously?! I’ve literally had it with the behavior of people in game and riot’s policy that doesn’t allow people to stick up for themselves. I’d prefer chat be removed completely. It adds nothing positive to the game and pings are sufficient for in game communication. The reporting system does not work. If it did, we would not be having this conversation and you would not see this side of me that is highly frustrated with this issue.

EvilDustManFeb 21, 20184 votes

{quoted}

“Chronic offender”? Really? I’ve been chat restricted for sticking up for myself after being flamed and trolled in 9 out of 10 games and the report system doing nothing to improve my experience. I rarely ever get a notification that some one toxic or someone trolling has been punished. My most recent chat restriction was explained to me by support as me “arguing”. Arguing is punishable and worthy of being labeled as “dishonorable” on my League profile? Seriously?! I’ve literally had it with the behavior of people in game and riot’s policy that doesn’t allow people to stick up for themselves. I’d prefer chat be removed completely. It adds nothing positive to the game and pings are sufficient for in game communication. The reporting system does not work. If it did, we would not be having this conversation and you would not see this side of me that is highly frustrated with this issue.

MUTE and report.

Azure HamsterFeb 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oEpXvoXZ,comment-id=00140000000000000001,timestamp=2018-02-21T21:26:13.353+0000)

That false positive rate takes into account over-punish too. Out of every penalty there is less than a .010% chance of the penalty not being accurate. Not being accurate could mean it was a ban but should have been a chat restriction, or that player support decided to reduce the penalty for a first time offender.

Wow... congrats on that low rate. Impressive (said in Quake 3 voice).

Caitlyn

3TWarriorFeb 22, 20182 votes

it's worse if you do it in the Spongebob Viking's voice...can't remember his name

GNU r000tFeb 21, 20184 votes

Here's the problem with large numbers: 0.010% is still pretty bad. It means that out of every 1,000,000 ~~reports~~ penalties, 100 people are falsely banned.

That may not seem like a lot, but League of Legends supposedly has tens of millions of monthly active players worldwide. A couple hundred people a month MUST be getting falsely banned.

RiotRiot TantramFeb 21, 201831 votes

No. 0.010% of PENALTIES.

NOT 0.010% of reports .

GNU r000tFeb 21, 20187 votes

I most sincerely apologize for using the wrong term. I meant penalties. I will update the original post.

0.010% of penalties is much much worse than 0.010% of reports.

KingWanahakalugiFeb 21, 201810 votes

And if I may add to Tantram's numbers: I believe that Riot has made a point to say that most players never receive any punishment, and only 1% of the community is issued a punishment at some point playing the game (most of which being minor punishments), so by Tantram's number and the estimated 76,000,000 players per month (last I heard, could be an old number). 760,000 players get punished in a months time, and the number of incorrect reports per month is approx 76 worldwide. I would say that's not half bad, and that's not to say a punishment wasn't deserved in all cases, because some of them are just reduced in severity.

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20182 votes

I feel that volunteering the fact that he is a chronic offender is kind of unprofessional and singles this guy out as a target. He simply said in his experience that he feels the system is inaccurate. That could have meant people he has on his friends list or RL friends. Could have meant from things he reads on the boards. I"m just saying, feels kind of like a low blow to a guy who seems like he might actually wonder about it. Could have not brought that part up and still made your point.

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20181 votes

Admittedly, that guy could have phrased himself more politely, but as a customer and player of this game, I sort of have higher expectations of you reds than the actual players.

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 22, 20181 votes

You’re right, I could have. I did not mean to come across as not polite.

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20182 votes

It happens man. There was still no right, reason, or purpose for you to be attacked like that.

Tomoe GozenFeb 22, 20182 votes

How was he attacked? Holy moly, now you're being delusional.

Riot Tantram stated the truth and nothing else. SunOfAdam wasn't being called out on anything.

Tomoe GozenFeb 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Then maybe don’t dole out punishments until your system works? It’s highly innaccurate from my experience.

"From his experience" means that he had dealings with the system. So Riot Tantram asked him why he thinks the system is innacurate and has explained how it works and which people does it take into account. As we've established that its chronic offenders and SunOfAfam is one, why does he feel the system doesn't work?

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20182 votes

Experience does not in any way mean that he ever got in trouble. It can mean that, but it can also not mean that he's seen it happen to others. An experience is anything you go through in life. If enough people say the same thing to you, that is an experience. If all people say that apples are delicious, but you have never had one, then in your experience you would have come to understand that apples are delicious. Him saying that in his experience that system is innacurate could just as easily mean that he has friends who do that. You and I can assume and speculate, but isn't one of Riot's policies to not name and shame? How is a direct response to an account on the boards that includes the behavioral background of that account not the same as naming and shaming? He wasn't talking about his account. He wasn't making some point of him being unfairly punished. He was asking why they dont' wait until the system works right after the same red made a comment implying that there is room for improvement. That question is fully justified. He used a reference of "in my experience". Why not just say I was unfairly banned? It's because if you point out that the guy has had a ban then his actual question can be degraded to a personal attack and therefore shoved in the corner as unimportant. If he had started with that then I could see where maybe he was using it to make his point, but he didn't. He made his point without ever bringing it up, then at the end brought it up and made some slight about how he's one of the few who deals with that system. That's disrespecful. Previous ban or not, it's still disrespectful. It's an intentional low blow meant to attack the character of that player and to disregard his question. Honestly, I think the red didn't have a good answer and was salty about his day for some reason, and decided to make some smart ass comment at the end on the person's character, which is very unprofessional. I don't care if that guy was ever banned? Is he banned now? If not then I assume he learned his lesson and all is forgiven. For real, I really do feel that the red was completely out of line. One of us can do that, we're not being paid to be decent and provide support on the boards. HE IS. Honestly, if I knew how to file a complaint about it with Riot I'd do it. I'm not ok with someone being like that when they're supposed to be the voice of reason here.

I'll show you why it bothers me real fast though. You said " As we've established that its chronic offenders and SunOfAfam is one, why does he feel the system doesn't work?" Well, you started with that slight that the red made about him being a chronic offender, you followed it up with the same question but in a negative context. You have already disregarded this guy's right to ask if the system is flawed and what can be done about it because he got in trouble. His question, this human being's question, is being completely disregarded as a waste of time because of that one thing the red said about him on a personal level. Do you not see how wrong that actually is? He's a human being no matter what mistakes he may have made. How the hell am I the only one standing up for him?!?!?!?!?!?

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Experience does not in any way mean that he ever got in trouble. It can mean that, but it can also not mean that he's seen it happen to others. An experience is anything you go through in life. If enough people say the same thing to you, that is an experience. If all people say that apples are delicious, but you have never had one, then in your experience you would have come to understand that apples are delicious. Him saying that in his experience that system is innacurate could just as easily mean that he has friends who do that. You and I can assume and speculate, but isn't one of Riot's policies to not name and shame? How is a direct response to an account on the boards that includes the behavioral background of that account not the same as naming and shaming? He wasn't talking about his account. He wasn't making some point of him being unfairly punished. He was asking why they dont' wait until the system works right after the same red made a comment implying that there is room for improvement. That question is fully justified. He used a reference of "in my experience". Why not just say I was unfairly banned? It's because if you point out that the guy has had a ban then his actual question can be degraded to a personal attack and therefore shoved in the corner as unimportant. If he had started with that then I could see where maybe he was using it to make his point, but he didn't. He made his point without ever bringing it up, then at the end brought it up and made some slight about how he's one of the few who deals with that system. That's disrespecful. Previous ban or not, it's still disrespectful. It's an intentional low blow meant to attack the character of that player and to disregard his question. Honestly, I think the red didn't have a good answer and was salty about his day for some reason, and decided to make some smart ass comment at the end on the person's character, which is very unprofessional. I don't care if that guy was ever banned? Is he banned now? If not then I assume he learned his lesson and all is forgiven. For real, I really do feel that the red was completely out of line. One of us can do that, we're not being paid to be decent and provide support on the boards. HE IS. Honestly, if I knew how to file a complaint about it with Riot I'd do it. I'm not ok with someone being like that when they're supposed to be the voice of reason here.

I'll show you why it bothers me real fast though. You said " As we've established that its chronic offenders and SunOfAfam is one, why does he feel the system doesn't work?" Well, you started with that slight that the red made about him being a chronic offender, you followed it up with the same question but in a negative context. You have already disregarded this guy's right to ask if the system is flawed and what can be done about it because he got in trouble. His question, this human being's question, is being completely disregarded as a waste of time because of that one thing the red said about him on a personal level. Do you not see how wrong that actually is? He's a human being no matter what mistakes he may have made. How the hell am I the only one standing up for him?!?!?!?!?!?

Thank you for this. For the record - I’ve never been banned. I’ve had three chat restrictions in the 4 seasons I’ve played LoL. You hit the nail on the head with Riot Tantrum’s reply to me. I wish there was someway to report this officially, but all I know to do is use the report button at the bottom of his post.

Tomoe GozenFeb 22, 20182 votes

Being banned and being chat restricted are different tiers of punishment. Riot Tantram explained this to you as well. And you've been chat restricted 3 times. That's a clear indicator you're a chronic offender, even if it happens once per season for you.

I'm now wondering how has Riot Tantram managed to offend you by telling you the truth and how their system considers you. Because this seems to me like you were looking for a way to get offended. He didn't say anything incriminating against you.

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 22, 20181 votes

Because he was clearly using it as a way to dismiss me and my argument through shaming me. It was irrelevant to the comment he was replying to.

Tomoe GozenFeb 23, 20182 votes

No, he wasn't. You made an incorrect statement and he corrected you on that, because he knows how the system works. And then he told you that you're also one of those rare people who experience this system. Which he then followed up with "Why do you feel it's highly inaccurate (because you said "from my experience")?"

You were the one who set him up to answer your question and he did it truthfully. You are a chronic offender. That's a fact. No one here offended you in any way. Stating a fact is not shaming anyone in any way.

TrulyBlandFeb 23, 20182 votes

Saying that you were punished implies that your perception of what happened may be biased. Saying that you were punished implies that your perception on how frequently toxicity happens is off (which is one of those interesting bits on the statistics that has been shared often). Saying that you were punished implies that your perception on what should be acceptable possibly differs from what Riot (and the majority of the community) believe should be acceptable.

You didn't actually supply an argument. You merely stated something without supplying evidence for it. Tantram merely offered an explanation as to why you might believe what you stated to be true, despite aforementioned lack of evidence.

TrulyBlandFeb 23, 20182 votes

I love how despite the fact that Tantrams comment was so "irrelevant" rather than address the actual arguments I've given, you keep shifting the discussion towards your own punishment.

Stating something is not an argument. So "My perception works fine." is not an argument that supports that your perception is fine. And "It was a bullying tactic. Period." is not an argument that supports that what Tantram did was bullying.

Do you want proof that Tantram didn't say this to dismiss your post? Tantram didn't need to. Nothing you say has any substance. You simply state things and hope that others perceive them as facts. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. The most effective way for Tantram to dismiss your post would have been to simply ignore it.

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 23, 20181 votes

Calling me out on a personal level was unnecessary to prove his point. It was a bullying tactic to silence me. He could’ve proved his point without doing that. I don’t work for riot and therefore don’t have the luxury of providing data. All I have is my personal experience.

Tomoe GozenFeb 22, 20181 votes

I'm not even going to read this because it's literally a wall of text, without any paragraphs. If you're going to make my eyes hurt while trying to have a discussion with you, then this is the point where i'm going to drop out. Clean up this text.

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20182 votes

^ the fact that you're afraid to put a little effort into some understanding is probably why I've had the feeling that you're half-informed this entire time. Also, a paragraph is there as a change of thought topics. I rarely use paragraphs because I believe all thoughts are linear. Had many arguments with teachers over that growing up. Still finished with phenomenal grades so it obviously doesn't slow me down much The irony of what you said there is that I make money on the side as a ghost writer for local rappers, and one country artist strangely enough. I literally am paid for the way I use words, so if paragraphs are my only issue then I"m very ok with that. Thanks to the internet most grammatical rules are out the window anyways. Also, smartass, you're supposed to put five letters worth of space at the beginning of each paragraph. Don't be trying that call out stuff if you aren't being perfect yourself. Also, you saying that at all was a tangent. You're just trying to derail the conversation. I'll make you a deal. I'll clean up the text when you clean up that faulty thought process ;)

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20182 votes

You also asked somewhere that I now can't find why I feel he's being attacked. Naming and shaming. Riot themselves consider that an attack. I'm basing this on the standards he himself agreed to when he took that job. Nothing more. Nothing less. Also, the person in reference has themselves said that they feel like that was a personal attack on them, a low blow, and completely uncalled for. If he feels offended then it's offensive. Not like some stupid things where someone says a word someone doesn't like. This guy was bringing up personal stuff that was completely unnecessary. It bothers me that you're ok with that because I know if you get treated that way I'll end up standing up for you as well, even though, as of right now, I don't feel like you would deserve the help. I just believe in doing the right thing over my personal feelings. It's called having a calling in life.

DankDaddyDizzleFeb 22, 20181 votes

Thank you for saying this. I thought the same thing when I read Riot Tantrums comment about me. It was an unprofessional and low blow. I never troll in game, I never use slurs, I never use hate speech and I would never dream of telling another player to take their own life. I don’t care how nasty or trolly they are. I refuse to go there. My infractions have been the result of me arguing with strong language when people become toxic or try to ruin the game through trolling. That’s it in a nutshell. Maybe riot tantrum felt justified in his low blow because he is used to dealing with people who truly wish to derail the game or harm others with their words. But that is not me. I’m simple frustrated with not seeing any improvement in player behavior and feeling like I have no recourse other than to defend myself in game.

cuddlykitten4Feb 22, 20182 votes

I see where you're coming from on that. The trick is the mute button man. I know it's hard to do that. I know you wanna tell em how it is. You're not playng the game for that though, you're playing for fun. Mute me and continue having fun :) It's what I do. It really does work. Just don't tell em you're muting them so they don't feed troll you or something. Either way, I believe in standing by my fellow people, and not letting them be treated like shit. I got your back.

Jušt MonikaFeb 22, 20184 votes

You must be new league, Kaasarana. Riot NEVER bans people who int or troll because to them, "they are just having a bad game". God forbid you flame the person who is running it down mid because "You are making the game unenjoyable or youre adding fuel to fire"

Professor LuxFeb 22, 20181 votes

This really could not have been put any better.

I have many times encountered literal sub-Dodo variants of humans, who make Lemmings look like free thinkers.

I think the game would be a lot less volatile and more co-operative (barring the 1% of people who are actually stupid) if Ranked stats and the like were based off of personal performance rather than teamwork. That way all of the little kiddies who ride the short-bus into the queue can stay at the bottom of the stack. =D

jadelinkFeb 22, 20183 votes

No. Have you seen what happens when they do that? You get kda padders, who sit there and watch you die, then move in now the kill is theirs, then walk away. You get a complete death of teamwork, and trying to win the game, and the team with more casuals and people who care less about ranked actually win.

Higher level games would get particularly unpleasant indeed, as no on CARES about winning, just about kda and stat padding.

Colgate GatorFeb 21, 20187 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=oEpXvoXZ,comment-id=0014,timestamp=2018-02-21T20:36:45.436+0000)

The data looks like you were trolling the jungler.

I see a lot of data supporting that when auto filled, you run around and don't do anything.

Feel free to open a support ticket and they can review all the info.

https://i.imgur.com/rPNCqww.jpg

LethalMester87Feb 21, 201820 votes

If that is 2 weeks worthy then I'm never going to type in League ever again.

Maldini30Feb 21, 201811 votes

Do we have all of the chat logs?

Anyway, these logs are not the only reason why you got banned, you must have been toxic in other games.

Superior ProfkeFeb 21, 20185 votes

You can look at the scroll bar, this was the only game provided as evidence for his ban. Although the best policy is mute and move on I understand how frustrating this can be and this guy was not verbally abusing or harrasing anyone and no slurs or profanity was used. Unless this is a bug where the wrong chat logs were provided (has happened in the past) he shouldnt be banned.

AnastaeciaFeb 21, 20186 votes

That looks like a portion of a log. Were you chat restricted in the past?

themachamp4Feb 21, 20185 votes

{quoted}

That looks like a portion of a log. Were you chat restricted in the past?

That's all there is on the reform card. Though, yes i have been chat restricted before.

dengenFeb 21, 20186 votes

I have a feeling theres more to it than this, but even if its not, you're saying you have been chat restricted in the past. Thats why you got 2 weeks now. Just stop typing anything in chat and you'll be fine.

Superior ProfkeFeb 21, 201811 votes

Having a chat restriction in the past should not determine whether this is punishable or not. Every legal system of first-world countries prevent past action from being used in court. Past offences should only be relevant when deciding what punishment to give not whether a punishment is deserved.

Bob the ToastrFeb 21, 20183 votes

Except it doesn't matter what other court systems do because Riot has their own system with 4 tiers: 10 game chat restriction 25 game chat restriction 2 week ban perma ban

Usually you start at the top and work your way down, except for especially bad things like hate speech, racism, or "kys", where you may start at the 2 week ban or if you're scripting, you usually go straight to the perma ban.

Velzard of KozFeb 21, 20182 votes

Except you missed Superior's point.

He says that him being punished in the past shouldn't determine whether this case was punishable. We are in this case discussing whether the log provided was punishable in the first place. He doesn't say all punishments should be always the same. He even wrote a proper example and you still missed the point.

A court decides guilt and punishment. First you decide guilt. If a person was banned before, that doesn't mean they are explicitly guilty now. After you deem them guilty, you choose their punishment. Punishment can scale with past punishments. For example, some countries use three times max rule where the third case of you violating the same law guaranteed life-time in prison.

KennysDreamGirlFeb 21, 20181 votes

except that this is a video game and not a court of law. riot has rules and if you break them then that's that

Yaśuo MainFeb 21, 20182 votes

good, then OP shouldn't be beaned rn

KennysDreamGirlFeb 21, 20181 votes

no, if he had chat resstrictions before then he deserves the ban. riot has rules and if you break them you take whatever punishment tier you are in. since he got 2 weeks that means hes had chat restrictions recently. there is no if ands or buts about it

Yaśuo MainFeb 23, 20181 votes

he'd deserve the ban if there was something to get banned for, and there isn't any evidence provided there was. so whats ur point dawg

KennysDreamGirlFeb 23, 20181 votes

read what tantrum has said about the subject