Why do you think being banned for being toxic is unfair or unusual?

Mig89·Oct 30, 2016·76 votes·5,032 views

I see a lot of people on the boards say that riot treats us all like we're kids and shouldn't perma ban for being tocix because it's not a realistic punishment. You see a lot of arguments saying that being toxic does not equal assault, murder, etc and say it'd be the equivalent of going to jail for saying mean things. Those comparisons are misguided. Why do people always equate it to assault and murder. You realize you can get in trouble in real life for harassment, threats, and hate speach. Riot is literally enforcing rules that are in society. If I went to work and said anything most of the rangers said in this game I would be fired which I guess you could consider a perma ban. If I was still playing football and someone hit me with a low blow and I retaliated, the ref would penalize both of us and repeat offenses would lead to an ejection. The notion that riot is strict or unfair clearly comes from people who don't know how to function as a team in real life.

165 Comments

WeatheredOct 30, 201633 votes

What always confuses me is that they come to boards asking for support or agreement. Like, if you called someone a n*gger and then come here saying "but it was only once" no one is going to empathize. We could care less if you are chat restricted or banned.

Mig89Oct 30, 201611 votes

Exactly. I see the argument that there is no real life comparison to what riot does all the time and it baffles me. They're immature or just so focused on their own personal feelings that they don't accept how the world works.

Brain Errör 404Oct 30, 20161 votes

But I call people n--ger all the time. And they call me n--ger back. Should I be punished?

DecrendoOct 30, 20162 votes

Both of you should be punished, even if the person had said it first.

Brain Errör 404Oct 30, 20164 votes

This is where you misunderstand. Context is a serious thing in society. Where cultural rules apply to one place, doesn't necessarily mean it applies to another place. Where I'm from, calling someone a "n---ger" isn't offensive. I just learned recently, a few years back, that people actually take offence to this. So for me, banning people for being toxic is really awkward. I don't find it wrong, just awkward. Telling someone to kill themselves, threats or of that sort I find to be reasonable punishments, however, just trash talking I find to be a natural part of video games and find no real fault in words said.

Just throwing around a few words here and there and calling someone bad is all in good sport, I feel. This is just how I feel because of the culture I grew up in. I now understand that other people have different feelings towards things like this. My background is predominately black, I grew up in a caribbean country where these things are natural.

Just look at the small clip here in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-34Dxq_RoIc#t=1m24s

DecrendoOct 31, 20161 votes

While I do see your point, I believe that calling someone a n-ger is still very wrong because of the negative connotation the word has. It takes friendly trash talking and just turns it into what might seem like attack towards the person.

However, I do believe that trash talking is still acceptable to a certain point.

Brain Errör 404Oct 31, 20163 votes

I mean... like I said man, that word isn't offensive to me and my friends. I know how people feel about it and I wouldn't use it to people who I know would take offense to it: meaning, people of different cultural backgrounds.

I'm giving a different cultural aspect of it from the normal point of view. I was born and raised where cotton plantations were huge back in those days. My family treeline goes back to those slave days.

HexaDecimelOct 31, 20161 votes

That doesn't make it okay.

Brain Errör 404Oct 31, 20163 votes

I'm not arguing against Riot's policies. They have the right to do what they want. When in Rome, do what the Romans do. If you commit a crime based on Roman laws, you won't be saved by your laws if it isn't a crime where you're from.

People are taking offense to some really trivial things, tbh. I was simply providing a different outlook on society. People click "I agree to ToS" without really reading the ToS. What some people find offensive, others don't. It's really that simple and really all I was trying to point out anyways.

HexaDecimelOct 31, 20161 votes

I am not arguing Riot policies either. Just because you don't find something offensive doesn't mean your opinion or outlook is correct.

gladiolasOct 31, 20163 votes

Just because you find something offensive doesn't mean everyone does :)

AstôlfoOct 30, 201613 votes

Both of you deserve a permaban.

Brain Errör 404Oct 30, 20163 votes

Refer to my previous comment I just posted. Top it off that I rarely type racial remarks in chat, only scream it through my skype call. This means that I really only degrade my friends. It's a mutual thing and it's all in good fun, so much so, that it isn't even degrading.

AstôlfoOct 30, 20167 votes

So what? That is irrelevant.

Brain Errör 404Oct 30, 20162 votes

Lol, it's plenty relevant. You thinking that it is irrelevant shows how shallow this world is today. How about you actually learn something instead of shrugging off information that could help you better in the future?

AstôlfoOct 30, 20169 votes

??? It is irrelevant. You used xenophobic hatespeech. That is immediate grounds for a permanent ban, as there is a zero-tolerance policy for such. I have no idea why you think you seem to have a valid complaint.

Brain Errör 404Oct 30, 20163 votes

So... I should be perma banned for calling my friend a n--ger when we do it every day, on a day to day basis? Or, I should gather hate for calling him one?

To top it off, I just explained to you about cultural context, yet you shrug it off like it doesn't mean diddly squat. I even explained that I found it awkward to be banned for such things, not wrong. Yet you're saying my complaint isn't valid? It isn't a complaint, it's just an informative insight to different cultures.

For you and YOUR culture, I'm pretty sure that n--ger is a xenophobe in terms of hate speech. For where I'm from, n--ger is only hate speech based on the context it's used in. Even then, it's hard to try and call someone a n--ger where I'm from and have it be used as an insult. Especially when we refer to OURSELVES as n--gers. Yeah, we know what the definition of it means. Yeah, we still call ourselves it. And we really could care less.

AstôlfoOct 31, 20164 votes

So what? No one cares. 'N####r' has an inherent hatespeech connotation to it due to its excessive usage during the period of slavery where the term was used as a way to separately categorize blacks in an intentionally dehumanizing way. It's irrelevant whether you or your friend find it offensive. Others in the game could and might easily take offense to it, or at the very least, be uncomfortable with you guys throwing the word about so nonchalantly.

You are free to call yourselves it. You are also free to call yourselves that term in the gamechat. But you will not be free from the deserved consequences if you decide to throw that term around in the gamechat. And if you don't care, stop whining.

Mig89Oct 31, 20164 votes

Find me a culture that is accepting of using that word. You and your friend don't qualify as a culture. It may be ok in the trashy parts of wherever you're from but that is unacceptable virtually everywhere.

llamasxOct 31, 20161 votes

I feel like the context of the word is quite important. The meanings of words change with time too. No one thinks someone deserves a ban for saying "fuck yeah, that was awesome." But on the other hand, "fuck you you fucktard," would. Same irl with any of the examples OP posted. Some black people call each other N all the time and use it to mean "bro." Would using it in that context be worse than calling someone a bitch or bastard in the derogatory sense?

It's a little off topic, but I mean for this to be considered outside of the context of league, as it can be difficult to determine the intention of a word through text, especially if it is with a stranger. While I personally think the power of a word should only be as powerful as the intention of the word, it isn't actually true based upon how offended many people get over trivialities.

AstôlfoOct 31, 20162 votes

But. "Fuck" has absolutely no negative connotations unless directed towards others. "N%%%%%" on the other hand, is inherently negative in connotation due to its ties to certain historical periods. And MANY people still consider it extremely offensive. The feelings of others take priority over them in that case. It is irrelevant whether the one saying/having it said to feels it's fine. Any or all of the other 8 might not. And that is more important than those 2.

Jax the StampedeOct 31, 20163 votes

Did you know that Eskimo is an extremely offensive term for a member of the Inuit tribe? Bet you've said that word before haven't you? Be less racist.

AstôlfoOct 31, 20162 votes

Well, the more you know. Then I don't need to use that term from now on. What's your point?

Jax the StampedeOct 31, 20163 votes

Wow, you really don't get it do you? Rather than grasp the concept that it hurts literally nothing to say any word ever at any time, you instead removed another word from your vocabulary. You really don't understand that taking words away, giving special priveledges to, reperations, and such things help perpetuate racism as much as the negative aspects such as segregation, slavery, and things along those lines do you? I worry so much about the future of my species. smh

AstôlfoOct 31, 20162 votes

I pity you.

Mig89Oct 31, 20163 votes

Riot takes this into consideration. people dont get banned for saying "fuck", they get banned for saying "fuck you."

Miror BOct 31, 20163 votes

{quoted}

What always confuses me is that they come to boards asking for support or agreement. Like, if you called someone a n*gger and then come here saying "but it was only once" no one is going to empathize. We could care less if you are chat restricted or banned.

"Hey, I just murdered a guy, ate his internal organs for breakfast/lunch, and picked up his kids wearing a suit made of his still bloody skin. It was only once though, so it's OK."

That's what goes through my mind whenever they try to make that excuse. [zombie-nunu-hearts]

AstôlfoOct 30, 201612 votes

Because people think it's "normal" or "tough" to act like a fucking ass towards others.

ElikainOct 30, 20166 votes

Assholes are used to being assholes because they're anonymous and won't get any flack, no matter how much shit they let out of their mouths.

Being anonymous on the internet is not a right, it's a luxury. Riot does not have our accounts tied to our IRL identities nor would they ever want to but our accounts in this game physically represent us in the community and as such, if we don't follow the rules, we get shown the door.

Riot gives plenty of opportunities to offenders to reform and get their shit together and punishments do time out, they aren't permanently on their accounts. Only a handful of people don't want to reform and remain assholes and to those people, i laughingly bid farewell.

KVbqbFsC8eOct 30, 20163 votes

The problem I have with it is Riots definition of toxicity. I don't have any problem with players throwing out death threats or super toxic stuff like that being banned, but I think its rather ridiculous that calling someone "bad" is also bannable.

o Maui oOct 30, 201621 votes

I think it's ridiculous that there are people who believe there's nothing wrong with trying to make someone feel bad.

KVbqbFsC8eOct 30, 20162 votes

Even more ridiculous is the fact that the person I call bad is allowed to ruin the game for 4 other people and waste their time.

o Maui oOct 30, 201619 votes

Poor performances are unintentional. Being a jerk is done on purpose.

KVbqbFsC8eOct 30, 20161 votes

Irrelevant. Does the fact hat it might not be intentional mean the game is not ruined, and my time isn't wasted? Nope.

o Maui oOct 30, 201614 votes

Irrelevant. Does your opinion that the game was ruined and your time was wasted somehow justify you trying to make someone feel bad? Not even close.

KVbqbFsC8eOct 30, 20161 votes

So then why do you believe that making someone feel "bad" (and lets be real here, anyone who feels bad over me calling them bad should not be using the Internet) justifies punishment while someone ruining the game for someone and wasting their time does not?

Do you think me calling an 0/10 player bad is worse than the fact that they are 0/10? Can I hit a magical button that makes them not 0/10 and get my time and LP back?

o Maui oOct 30, 201610 votes

So then why do you believe that making someone feel "bad" (and lets be real here, anyone who feels bad over me calling them bad should not be using the Internet) justifies punishment while someone ruining the game for someone and wasting their time does not?

Intent matters. Calling someone bad is an intentional attempt to make them feel bad. A poor performance is an unintended natural consequence of any competitive environment.

Do you think me calling an 0/10 player bad is worse than the fact that they are 0/10?

Yes, because they didn't choose to have a bad game, but you chose to be a jerk and make a bad situation worse. Poor performances are understandable; poor sportsmanship isn't.

Can I hit a magical button that makes them not 0/10 and get my time and LP back?

No.

Mig89Oct 30, 20167 votes

The "they should not be using the internet" comments are a joke. Just because the internet is a nasty place does not mean it needs to be perpetuated or brought into every facet of it. Come the fuck on. You calling them bad does absolutely nothing positive and is negative and will negatively influence the game for you. League is a game of averages. No single game determines your rank. People with your mindset are held back by your own attitude.

AeszarckOct 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mars Ragnarok,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=JuOpR4ss,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-30T20:19:10.933+0000)

Poor performances are unintentional. Being a jerk is done on purpose.

What a set of simple, yet powerful statements.

Keep at it, Mars Ragnarok. Lots of respect to you.

KieferrOct 31, 20161 votes

Even more ridiculous that somebodys complete lack of competitive integrity and disregard for the consequences of his/her actions which have the potential to ruin the games of 4 teammates is protected by Riot, while criticism is "immoral" and "toxic". Grow a fucking sack. If I drive on the road and not use my turn signals, cut everyone off, and skip stop signs, I'm gonna get loudmouthed. Same thing here.

o Maui oOct 31, 20162 votes

In your analogy, the driver in question is breaking the law. If a player is having a poor performance and breaking the rules, they will face consequences for their actions.

But this isn't a legal situation we're talking about here, which is a really important distinction to make. You aren't being policed. You're being asked by a video game company to not create a toxic environment for their other customers. And please, before you come back with "but they're creating a negative environment for ME by being BAD!!!!!!", bear in mind that a poor performance is unintentional, and being a jerk is both intentional and unnecessary (as well as mean, small, petty, pointless, etc).

A more appropriate analogy would be: "if I push my cart down a supermarket aisle really slowly, and some jerk starts screaming and cursing at me because they're in a hurry and I'm their way, then that person will probably be asked to leave by the manager."

KieferrNov 1, 20161 votes

So you're telling me that we "aren't being policed" while somewhere out there is a self learning, fascist safe-space robot that can apparently ban people in 15 min or less for "negative attitude" or some other bullshit because we hurt the feelings of some asshole who I don't care about?
Welcome to the world of online gaming buddy. Hate to break it to you, but this isn't the utopian society you're expecting where everybody fondles each other's scrotums and we all ride rainbows and unicorns. If you can't handle criticism, get the fuck out and do something else. If you're gonna waste 35 min of my time and cause inconvenience, I'm gonna express myself. Your feelings do not matter nor will they effect me, in the grand scheme of things.

o Maui oNov 1, 20161 votes

Well, you certainly could do things that way, and Riot certainly could ban you for it. You can posture all you want and throw tantrums to your heart's content, but in the end their opinion of what is and isn't acceptable behavior in League is more important than yours.

Dominick DestineOct 30, 20163 votes

It is fine to punish people that say, do death threat+dox combo , permaban even, but the system is very draconian and permabans people for slight offenses.

KVbqbFsC8eOct 30, 20163 votes

Well unfortunately, people here agree with that system. Its really odd.

Dominick DestineOct 30, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=JuOpR4ss,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-10-30T21:42:04.806+0000)

Well unfortunately, people here agree with that system. Its really odd.

It's not odd at all, we are living in an era with the greatest level of intolerance we've ever seen. With feminism/leftism being the norm now, logic and reason have become concepts of the past and to substitute them, we have "MUH HURT FEE FEES".

Because "Feelings" are completely subjective, authority must be ultra draconian to compensate. I am more of a libertarian mindset myself and do not agree with highly excessive centralized authority having control over the way people interact but this is a video game where that has to be the case. I like the game so I play it but I sure wish the system implemented by the company behind the game wouldn't be so ultra draconian.

ChaoticPineconeOct 30, 20167 votes

You use a lot of words, but your argument doesnt make sense. The rules arent "draconian", no matter how many times you insist they are. A chat ban after multiple offenses is hardly Draconian - its like, the least severe punishment you can implement in a game. I havent seen anyone get permabanned for toxicity without multiple chat bans prior.

If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to show me a list of people who got permabanned for slight offenses.

Riot, as a private company who owns a certain product, are allowed to regulate the use of their product in ways that arent illegal. Its in no way controlling the way people interact - you can interact in any way you want outside of the game. But if youre going to use the channels they provide to interact, then you have to adhere to the rules they proscribe.

And yes, feelings are sometimes subjective. But if youre getting nonstop reported for toxic behavior enough to receive multiple chat bans or a permaban, the objective view is that your behavior just isnt tolerable. Just because something is subjective doesnt mean its wrong.

Dominick DestineOct 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The rules arent "draconian", no matter how many times you insist they are.

I suppose I could tell you that you are completely wrong but for a leftist/feminist, extremist policy is the norm so I can also see where you are coming from. You like the draconian system so you see no problem with, that's fine, that's entirely your preference, your opinion.

But there are people that do not like hardcore authoritarianism. There are those of us of a more libertarian mindset that have been playing video games online for almost 20 years that correctly identify the current system Riot has implemented as draconian. It is not wrong to make such a statement in a civil and respectful manner.

If you want to prove me wrong, feel free to show me a list of people who got permabanned for slight offenses.

I was hit with a zero-to-permaban punishment for what Riot openly stated was low-to-moderate toxicity... of course it was later overturned but the point stands.

And I am not the only one that has been put through that.

Riot, as a private company who owns a certain product, are allowed to regulate the use of their product in ways that arent illegal.

That's a lovely strawman argument.

Its in no way controlling the way people interact

Within the game, yes, yes they do. That's their right as a private enterprise.

I follow their rules as much as possible.... but that doesn't mean I cannot/will not point out that the system draconian, there is nothing wrong with identifying it as such.

And yes, feelings are sometimes subjective

Stopped reading right there.

"Feelings" are ALWAYS subjective.

Awkward CouchOct 30, 20166 votes

IIRC there was one player who was banned for degrading themselves (saying Janna you fucking retard, while he was playing Janna), but that ban was reversed. Dominick Destine was permabanned but then his ban was overturned after a support ticket. You can read about it here. I'm not saying he's right, but you can understand why he has his gripes with Riot.

I think his argument when he talks about feelings, him thinking the Riot ban system is draconian is just as much of a feeling as his ever present "they hurt my feelings" argument that he always brings up.