Ultimate Bravery

PlsHelpIBlind·Oct 17, 2018·2 votes·3,543 views

Ultimate Bravery - Season 8 - Ultimate Bravery

In a normal game, to what degree is using Ultimate Bravery bannable considering you aren't inting/flaming?

58 Comments

CharDeeMcDennizOct 17, 201811 votes

why is the logo a bunch of dicks?

EvilDustManOct 17, 20183 votes

{quoted}

why is the logo a bunch of dicks?

My god. It is.

XidphelOct 17, 20184 votes

Asking the real questions.

EvilDustManOct 17, 20185 votes

I personally consider it griefing. If it were a single player game, or a game where you all do it, it would be a challenge. But it's a team game. You are specifically setting yourself a handicap that doesn't just bring you down, but everyone else down.

Go play like, punch dark souls or something instead.

VoldymortOct 17, 20181 votes

Go play like, punch dark souls or something instead

The problem is that dark souls has the nasty tendency of punching back. Violently.

Midg3tOct 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I personally consider it griefing. If it were a single player game, or a game where you all do it, it would be a challenge. But it's a team game. You are specifically setting yourself a handicap that doesn't just bring you down, but everyone else down.

Go play like, punch dark souls or something instead.

But building/playing champs however you want isn't considered griefing by Riot tho

EvilDustManOct 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But building/playing champs however you want isn't considered griefing by Riot tho

There's a "don't be an ass in there." If you build AP Vayne, yea, you are gonna get hit.

ModPeriscopeOct 17, 20184 votes

It seems like it's geared towards builds that don't help in any way, so it's griefing or intentional feeding. That's what I got the last time I clicked on that website a long time ago. I'm not even going to look at it now.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20183 votes

Intentionally feeding has nothing to do with builds, and its not griefing either. As long as you intend to win your game to the best of your ability, you can build whatever you want. Its not like riot restricts you from buying deathcap on garen.

C0l0urlessOct 17, 20183 votes

I think it's a stretch to imagine that someone sabotaging themselves by buying items with little/no synergy with their champion is actively trying to win the game.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20182 votes

Not a stretch at all. Trying to win has nothing to do with the build youre using. If you were to make that artument, then only the community voted best build is the only build you can run, and anything else is trolling because youre clearly not playing optimally therefore youre not trying to win hard enough.

League is a game first, and games are meant to be fun. If they want to do this for fun, they can. It doesnt restrict them from playing to win the game.

C0l0urlessOct 17, 20181 votes

Not a stretch at all. Trying to win has nothing to do with the build youre using. If you were to make that artument, then only the community voted best build is the only build you can run, and anything else is trolling because youre clearly not playing optimally therefore youre not trying to win hard enough.

By your logic it's impossible for trolls, no matter how obvious to ever be punished, since they can just state they are trying to win.

League is a game first, and games are meant to be fun. If they want to do this for fun, they can. It doesnt restrict them from playing to win the game.

Handicapping yourself for fun negatively influences the fun of your teammates.

Edit: If having fun is the only thing important as long as you claim that you are trying to win, why is should flaming be a bannable offence then. It doesn't restrict you from trying to win and your teammates can mute/ignore you if they don't like it.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20181 votes

My logic is fine. At the end of the day, the barrier for trolling is really high, because off meta things and new players exist. The only thing riot asks of you is that you try, in good faith, to win your games. Thats it. Theres a difference between a non new player running it down mid, hitting towers with no minions (or not even hitting them at all), dealing only chip damage, solo, and someone participating in fights/ganks, legitimately trying to provide for the team, but has a suboptimal build.

Flaming isnt allowed because its directed at other people. Being a dick is not smiled upon.

C0l0urlessOct 17, 20182 votes

At the end of the day, the barrier for trolling is really high, because off meta things and new players exist.

I dislike the fact people use off meta as a shield for trolls. Some things in the game are simply not viable and shouldn't be excusable as an alternative strategy.

New players can easily be detected and someone being new or bad stops being an excuse in higher ranks.

Theres a difference between a non new player running it down mid, hitting towers with no minions (or not even hitting them at all), dealing only chip damage, solo, and someone participating in fights/ganks, legitimately trying to provide for the team, but has a suboptimal build.

There is a limit to how much you can handicap yourself before becoming useless simply due to your champ not supporting your build/position.

Being a dick is not smiled upon.

Forcing your teammates into a disadvantageous position because you refuse to build even somewhat optimally is also considered being a dick.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20181 votes

Not really a statement, you dont know if something can work until you actually try it. AP Garen when DFG was around was a legitimate, viable build.

No, most champions can function well off just their base kits alone, and anyone who plays aram often knows you need to sometimes build non ideal builds in order to function (aa > fh victor, for example, against an ad heavy team)

Your team gets no say in who you pick, how you build, or how you play. As long as you play with the intent to win the game, how you do so is entirely up to you. Being a dick would be the opposite, dictating what your team mates do simply because you dont like it.

zolikingOct 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T19:35:19.224+0000)

Not really a statement, you dont know if something can work until you actually try it. AP Garen when DFG was around was a legitimate, viable build.

No, millions of games have been played out. What works has been already established. Troll building to "try out" something when your team expects you to do your role on it is not acceptable behavior.

No, most champions can function well off just their base kits alone, and anyone who plays aram often knows you need to sometimes build non ideal builds in order to function (aa > fh victor, for example, against an ad heavy team)

Rift and ARAM are fundamentally different. How are you even using ARAM as justification for trolling on Rift?

Your team gets no say in who you pick, how you build, or how you play. As long as you play with the intent to win the game, how you do so is entirely up to you. Being a dick would be the opposite, dictating what your team mates do simply because you dont like it.

No, this is the exact, diametrical opposite of the truth. LoL is a team game, what you do affects other people and therefore it is their business. You goofing off and dirping around while they have to rely on you is trolling, and you adding a little note in chat "but this is actually me trying" does not make it less so. Champ select and item builds are parts of the game and significantly influence how useful you can and will be, any decisions you make there that harm your team absolutely signal that you intend to harm rather than help.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20181 votes

False, the game is not solved, the fact people think it is is why nothing new gets tried, and why people are so stunned when something different works. Double jungle was a competatively viable strat, gold funnelling became a thing, proxy singed became the default singed playstyle, int sion is the recent example.

zolikingOct 17, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T20:34:55.498+0000)

False, the game is not solved, the fact people think it is is why nothing new gets tried, and why people are so stunned when something different works. Double jungle was a competatively viable strat, gold funnelling became a thing, proxy singed became the default singed playstyle, int sion is the recent example.

Clearly new strategies arise from time to time, but you will find my response to the ever so frequently repeated discovery argument at 5:42 in this little prepared video I have for just such occassions as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnl-h52cDEs&t=1s

Pika FoxOct 17, 20181 votes

Team gets no say in what you pick or do. Argument therefore moot.

zolikingOct 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T21:16:05.506+0000)

Team gets no say in what you pick or do. Argument therefore moot.

Reasserting the nonsense that has already been addressed like a broken fucking record is not making a point, it's reinforcing the idea in others that you are too dumb to make a case. In this particular situation it means that you just want trolling to be okay so you can troll because you are too selfish to be part of any team. Go play single player or 1v1 games.

Midg3tOct 18, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Clearly new strategies arise from time to time, but you will find my response to the ever so frequently repeated discovery argument at 5:42 in this little prepared video I have for just such occassions as this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnl-h52cDEs&t=1s

Why are you even arguing with a guy who only plays ARAM and bot games lmao xD And good vid btw. You have very pleasant voice c: imma use this next time topic like this comes up :D

zolikingOct 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why are you even arguing with a guy who only plays ARAM and bot games lmao xD And good vid btw. You have very pleasant voice c: imma use this next time topic like this comes up :D

Thanks! :D I honestly never imagined I'd ever get a positive response to this, I'm so happy right now.

Midg3tOct 18, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Thanks! :D I honestly never imagined I'd ever get a positive response to this, I'm so happy right now.

Why wouldn't you get a positive response? You cracked down the topic pretty well, you explained why is it bad in an enviroment where there is no 'you', only 'we', aka the team.

I feel like every1 who would dissagree with you are players who never took the game seriously (nor ever will) and/or don't want to play as a team (which is funny cuz it's a team game) The only thing i would add to the video is to challenge every1 who tries to prove you wrong to climb up the ladder by taking troll picks without caring about their team's opinion. Spoiler alert, they would pussy out of that challenge.

C0l0urlessOct 17, 20181 votes

False, the game is not solved, the fact people think it is is why nothing new gets tried, and why people are so stunned when something different works. Double jungle was a competatively viable strat, gold funnelling became a thing, proxy singed became the default singed playstyle, int sion is the recent example.

The game is not solved because it still receives balance changes and there are things that aren't going to work unless they receive massive changes.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20181 votes

Even without balance changes it is not solved, and is stupid to assume such.

C0l0urlessOct 17, 20181 votes

Not really a statement, you dont know if something can work until you actually try it.

There are things, like AP Riven, Support Kai'Sa or Jungle Soraka, that are so bad you should know they wouldn't work simply by reading their abilities.

AP Garen when DFG was around was a legitimate, viable build.

DFG has been removed and unless some other major change occurs, AP Garen is going to remain a troll pick.

No, most champions can function well off just their base kits alone, and anyone who plays aram often knows you need to sometimes build non ideal builds in order to function (aa > fh victor, for example, against an ad heavy team)

That simply isn't true. While some champions have kits which can allow an alternate build, many simply can't build other items, due to lacking scalings or utility in their kit.

ARAM is very different from SR so some things that don't function normally can function there, but they still remain a subpar choice.

Your team gets no say in who you pick, how you build, or how you play. As long as you play with the intent to win the game, how you do so is entirely up to you. Being a dick would be the opposite, dictating what your team mates do simply because you dont like it.

LoL is a team game and your play affects your teammates. You cannot do your best to make yourself as irrelevant as possible and then claim it's ok, because your intention is apparently to win

Pika FoxOct 17, 20181 votes

Support kaisa and jungle soraka both work.

Lich Bane still works.

False, most champions can function with just their base kits well enough if you know what youre doing.

Sucks to be the team, they have 0 say in what someone else builds or picks. There is no buying items or picking champions for other players. Deal. With. It.

C0l0urlessOct 17, 20182 votes

Support kaisa and jungle soraka both work.

Kai'Sa has 0 utility and is a gold reliant champion. Soraka's clears are very slow and I don't think she is even capable of doing a level 3 clear without recalling.

Lich Bane still works.

Many champions cannot abuse the passive, the scaling it gives is low and the item is expensive, so the AP build is still very bad.

False, most champions can function with just their base kits well enough if you know what youre doing.

Being a glorified cannot minion until your ult comes up isn't really what I would call function well enough.

Edit: A lot of champions are designed only for dealing damage and become completely useless if they don't have a proper build.

Sucks to be the team, they have 0 say in what someone else builds or picks. There is no buying items or picking champions for other players. Deal. With. It.

So trolling is ok then?

Even without balance changes it is not solved, and is stupid to assume such.

Then tell me 1 thing you think could change before the next patch comes.

zolikingOct 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T19:09:07.150+0000)

My logic is fine. At the end of the day, the barrier for trolling is really high, because off meta things and new players exist. The only thing riot asks of you is that you try, in good faith, to win your games. Thats it. Theres a difference between a non new player running it down mid, hitting towers with no minions (or not even hitting them at all), dealing only chip damage, solo, and someone participating in fights/ganks, legitimately trying to provide for the team, but has a suboptimal build.

Flaming isnt allowed because its directed at other people. Being a dick is not smiled upon.

Calling the things this site produces "suboptimal" is like eating a pile of turd and saying "it wasn't all that good". Doing this shit with anybody on your team who didn't consent to you doing it is absolutely trolling.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20182 votes

Team has zero say in what you pick or build.

zolikingOct 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-17T20:35:24.235+0000)

Team has zero say in what you pick or build.

Except it's a team game and what you do affects them so you can't make arbitrary choices.

Pika FoxOct 17, 20182 votes

I can all i want, its my pick.

zolikingOct 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T21:17:09.985+0000)

I can all i want, its my pick.

This is the third time you make this exact comment in this thread with the exact same lack of any supporting arguments. The saddest part is that the message right before this one is the second to last of these and you didn't even seem to realize that you are just repeating this nonsense ad nauseam as if that would make it any more true. I've met many people of the pro-pick troll persuation on these boards, with some I had civil discussions about the issue, with others the back and forth got heated, but I don't think any of them examplified all that is wrong with the pick troll community as perfectly as you have.

Pika FoxOct 18, 20181 votes

There is zero supporting arguments necessary. It is MY pick, not yours. End of story. You dont like it? Sucks to be you. Its not your say. There is no discussion to be had, there is nothing to be said. At the end of the day, the person whos pick it is can pick whatever they damn well please.

C0l0urlessOct 18, 20182 votes

Picking a champion incapable of doing your assigned role or building items unsupported by your pick is reducing your teammates chances to win and should be punishable. If you dislike that you can go play single player games.

Pika FoxOct 18, 20181 votes

False, neither are punishable. It would be stupid of riot to enforce any meta, and all cases prior when it was punished have been overturned.

Punishing pick and build choice on their own is a route designers cannot go, as you create a trap for players that enforces a meta that isnt always the best choice, ruins diversity, and just creates a general punishment trap (if youre going to ban for specific picks and builds, you cannot let your player freely choose them. Youre punishing players for your own shortcomings as a designer)

C0l0urlessOct 18, 20181 votes

False, neither are punishable. It would be stupid of riot to enforce any meta, and all cases prior when it was punished have been overturned.

There is a difference between not playing meta and playing a not working pick/build

Punishing pick and build choice on their own is a route designers cannot go, as you create a trap for players that enforces a meta that isnt always the best choice, ruins diversity, and just creates a general punishment trap (if youre going to ban for specific picks and builds, you cannot let your player freely choose them. Youre punishing players for your own shortcomings as a designer)

Most of the worst pick/build can easily be identified by reading the champions abilities or trying to play them in the practice tool.

zolikingOct 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-18T13:46:14.356+0000)

There is zero supporting arguments necessary.

Unless you make a claim about something being right or wrong, and somebody else comes along with an argument challenging your claim. In which case the only way to maintain the validity of your claim is to make a case for it.

It is MY pick, not yours. End of story. You dont like it? Sucks to be you. Its not your say.

There is no discussion to be had, there is nothing to be said.

Except you claim that it is okay to troll pick when it's not. You maintaining that you are right by default just makes you look all the more dumb. There is not a single person on the face of this Earth who could make that claim, not Steven Hawking or the queen of England. And yet you think that your ideas are above criticism. I mean that's a level of arrogance rarely encountered even on the internet.

At the end of the day, the person whos pick it is can pick whatever they damn well please.

You really have a trouble with ad nauseam. And it would be super easy to fix too, just don't repeat the stupid thing you are saying for the 6th time.

Pika FoxOct 18, 20181 votes

Because nothing else needs to be said. Its their pick, they can pick whatever they want. Its not a community vote, its their fucking pick. End of story, end of discussion. You dont like it? Play a different game. I am right by default because, oh hey look at that, when you queue for a game ITS YOUR FUCKING PICK. Not your teams. And hey, it lets me pick WHATEVER I WANT.

zolikingOct 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-10-18T15:32:35.504+0000)

Because nothing else needs to be said. Its their pick, they can pick whatever they want.

Ooh, 6. Right off the bat, so sad.

Its not a community vote, its their fucking pick.

Well, there's always next time. Try not to go for #8 there buddy, at that point I would have to start feeling sorry for you, and I don't want that.

End of story, end of discussion. You dont like it? Play a different game.

No, there is a discussion you just don't seem to understand it.

I am right by default because, oh hey look at that, when you queue for a game ITS YOUR FUCKING PICK. Not your teams. And hey, it lets me pick WHATEVER I WANT.

It's super ironic that this is where you start with "I am right by default", even though this is actually the first time you gave an argument, as flimsy as it is. Let's annihilate it:

You are saying here that you are justified to do something because as things are, you have the ability to do it. By the same logic, if you'd be guaranteed to get away with murder, that would be right too.
If you want to make an implication that the reason the game is set up this way is that Riot must have a solid reason to think troll picking is ethical behavior, then watch the video I linked you from 6:56.

Who Fed RuOct 18, 20181 votes

By your logic it's impossible for trolls, no matter how obvious to ever be punished, since they can just state they are trying to win.

That's basically how it is now anyway if you don't literally run it down.

Also, there is nothing that forbids you to build what you want if you try to win by riots rules. By your arguments, I'm also not allowed to go on any champions anymore I can't play one bit because I'm "actively sabotaging myself".

C0l0urlessOct 18, 20181 votes

That's basically how it is now anyway if you don't literally run it down.

And that's a problem, since most trolls don't resort to such an obvious tactic.

Also, there is nothing that forbids you to build what you want if you try to win by riots rules.

That's because Riots current rules are flawed when dealing with trolls. Someone can claim that they are trying all they want, but if they are actively doing everything short of running it down to be as useless as possible you can hardly claim that doesn't negatively impact the enjoyment of their teammates.

By your arguments, I'm also not allowed to go on any champions anymore I can't play one bit because I'm "actively sabotaging myself".

If you are playing ranked you should play a champion you are good with and build items you know from your own experience work consistently and yes, I believe you should be punished for not doing so.

sleepysithlordOct 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T17:11:59.593+0000)

Not a stretch at all. Trying to win has nothing to do with the build youre using. If you were to make that artument, then only the community voted best build is the only build you can run, and anything else is trolling because youre clearly not playing optimally therefore youre not trying to win hard enough.

League is a game first, and games are meant to be fun. If they want to do this for fun, they can. It doesnt restrict them from playing to win the game.

lol yea I love having fun playing with teammates who build random items haha

Jo0oOct 17, 20186 votes

As with many instances of trolling, it boils down to intent. Picking a bad build, or building the wrong item, or trying an atypical build, is not against the rules. I think it’s safe to say that deliberately using random items with no real focus or objective is much different.

Jennifer420Oct 17, 20183 votes

its really interesting how noone (myself included) actually checked out the logo. its justl ike "ah the color, its bronze" then i see a commend saying "why is the logo a bunch of dicks" and im like yo cmon wtf is that troll comment? i scroll up to check the logo and damn it is dicks. like wtf lol

Friendly RamOct 18, 20181 votes

Wow. Ty

Better JunglerOct 17, 20182 votes

Dont take it into ranked, you'll be fine.

Not punishable for building "weird" things.

Your team may hate you but its not punishable.

I recommend getting 4 friends that want to play ultimate bravery style and trying it in a 5 man premade.

zolikingOct 17, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Better Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-17T19:48:14.130+0000)

Dont take it into ranked, you'll be fine.

Not punishable for building "weird" things.

It's purposefully giving the game away to the other team. I rip on Riot a lot for being lenient with this kind of conduct, but even I'm confident that using this site and going for these "builds" with any kind of consistency is something they'd pick up on.

Your team may hate you but its not punishable.

Griefing is punishable.

I recommend getting 4 friends that want to play ultimate bravery style and trying it in a 5 man premade.

Yes, that would be okay.

Better JunglerOct 17, 20182 votes

Its not "giving the game away."

Gotta take the emotion out of the argument.

It's a dick thing to do, and its not efficient, and you're handicapping your team. But its not punishable at the end of the day.

Consider: You get a veigar who builds item 3047 item 3156 item 3222 item 3089 item 3134 item 3091 (I just got this item combination from the website as an example)

He goes 3-6 by the end of the game. He farms, wards, stuns the enemies, does damage when he can, and tries not to die.

That isn't reportable. Its a bad build. But you can play league however you want. Sub optimal builds are not punishable. If they were bad players would be punished for doing it because they don't know better. New players would be banned before level 20. and lastly every person that tries a non-meta build would be punishable.

Edit: After rerolling the website a couple times, I didn't get any duplicate items. So I think it prevents giving you the same item twice.

zolikingOct 18, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Better Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9MNhNy5U,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-10-17T23:27:16.727+0000)

Its not "giving the game away."

Not in every case, if you get matched with 4 major badasses you might eek out a win, but for practical purposes and the average case it is.

Gotta take the emotion out of the argument.

I'm passionate about the issue, but that doesn't mean my argument is wrong.

It's a dick thing to do, and its not efficient, and you're handicapping your team. But its not punishable at the end of the day.

How else would you define griefing than purposefully handicapping your team, which you admit this is? If somebody does something that immediately harms your team and he knows full well that that's what it does then that person is a griefer. And Riot doesn't punish it when it happens infrequently and in a less than violently outrageous manner, but the point is:

my point is that they should. I'm not saying bring the ban hammer down on somebody for troll picking or troll building once or twice, but if it's a pattern, it's a problem. And that's just in the current system, there would be way better methods to handling this problem that wouldn't involve any punishment at all.
this website's suggestions do fall into the "violently outrageous" category, so even Riot would pick up it if somebody did this a lot (one of my big surprises was finding a quote on the boards from Riot Tantram listing troll picking and troll building as ways when identifying a person as a troll in a particular case. The dude was doing it consistently along with a number of other bad behaviors, but at least it showed that there is a threshold over which even Riot accepts these as problematic behavior. Honestly it restored a bit of respect in me for the player behavior team over there at Riot.)

Consider: You get a veigar who builds (I just got this item combination from the website as an example)

He goes 3-6 by the end of the game. He farms, wards, stuns the enemies, does damage when he can, and tries not to die.

Imagining a hypotherical scenario where this behavior doesn't do much damage is fine, but isn't much of an argument.

That isn't reportable. Its a bad build. But you can play league however you want. Sub optimal builds are not punishable.

Calling the builds and champ/role combinations this site produces "suboptimal" is like walking out nude in the arctic and saying "it's a little chilly out here" before freezing to death.

If they were bad players would be punished for doing it because they don't know better. New players would be banned before level 20.

Yeah, the MMR of players should absolutely be taken into account when determining what's trolling and what's not. I never said it shouldn't.

and lastly every person that tries a non-meta build would be punishable.

I never said that. Obviously some amount of leniency is necessary, but there's a difference in trying a troll build once or twice or screwing up the game for your team with this kind of behavior with any kind of regularity.