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Shame on you, Riot... Account banned for zero reason... AGAIN!

Sweet Sayonara··1 votes·2,591 views

Riot

I'm really struggling to understand your auto ban system. For the life of me I can't figure out what I said wrong. See chat logs below.

For context, I played adc on the Japanese server.

Game 1 Sweet Sayonara: back and get mana Sweet Sayonara: support/ [Support decided to go mid lane at 5 mins] Sweet Sayonara: what are you doing??' Sweet Sayonara: why?? Sweet Sayonara: i need you bot lane [Support still out of lane. We lose bot tower at 8 minutes and top lane is asking why...] Sweet Sayonara: gg Sweet Sayonara: im done
Sweet Sayonara: newb support Sweet Sayonara: going mid Sweet Sayonara: wow Sweet Sayonara: im amazed Sweet Sayonara: support [Support continues to be everywhere on the map but with me] Sweet Sayonara: where are you? Sweet Sayonara: what are you doing? Sweet Sayonara: this guy Sweet Sayonara: report Sweet Sayonara: i cant farm Sweet Sayonara: no support Sweet Sayonara: gank! Sweet Sayonara: come on Sweet Sayonara: wow Sweet Sayonara: just surrender Sweet Sayonara: how does this happen? Sweet Sayonara: support Sweet Sayonara: come Sweet Sayonara: on Sweet Sayonara: all you have to do is use your knock up Sweet Sayonara: pay attention Sweet Sayonara: support

I received a 10 game chat restriction for this game. Now, please, Riot or anyone else who has a clue, tell me what I said that is objectively against the rules?

IMO, the system is completely broken. It can permanently ban your account based on a subjective standard that they refuse to share with their players. The system also reports false positives (see my chat log above and linked below). That is completely unacceptable. SHAME on you, Riot. SHAME ON YOU!

My other account received a permanent ban under similarly shady circumstances. I had 200 USD on that account and Riot stole that from me. The details of that episode are here: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/A9EHnwuc-received-permanent-ban-for-no-good-reason

If you CANT tell me what it the above chat log is objectively inappropriate, I want the chat restriction lifted and my other account unbanned. Anything short of that is unacceptable and an abomination of customer service.

GG

30 Comments

ModThe Djinn12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-11T11:32:59.724+0000)Sweet Sayonara: newb support

I picked this single line because it's indicative of a larger trend in the game.

Spending the entire game belittling someone else for their play isn't permitted, whether you use insulting language to do so or simply normal, generally inoffensive language in a manner that still belittles that player.

You have done the latter, and a game spent almost exclusively complaining about a teammate being unskilled or useless will indeed earn you a punishment.

Lux OP1 votes

It's almost like banning his original account and forcing him to play with new players against other smurfs has made the game complete garbage for new players, and that this punishment system is offensively shitty. If Riot disabled in-game chat this problem would go away. If Riot insisted that people use the mute function to deal with verbally abusive players instead of permabanning accounts and sending them back to level 1 to wreak havoc on new players, this problem would go away. Instead, we have the current trashpile which is why there are so many threads like this posted every. single. day.

ModThe Djinn7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2018-04-11T13:54:48.520+0000)

It's almost like banning his original account and forcing him to play with new players against other smurfs has made the game complete garbage for new players, and that this punishment system is offensively shitty. If Riot disabled in-game chat this problem would go away. If Riot insisted that people use the mute function to deal with verbally abusive players instead of permabanning accounts and sending them back to level 1 to wreak havoc on new players, this problem would go away. Instead, we have the current trashpile which is why there are so many threads like this posted every. single. day.

Disabling in-game chat would defeat a large part of League's purpose as a teamwork-oriented game where communication matters. Giving players free reign to be verbally abusive would also defeat Riot's goal of fostering a friendly, helpful, respectful community.

And long and short of it is that players who are verbally abusive need to find other outlets for their frustration. Not banning them simply keeps the toxicity in the more experienced League population, and also gives it no incentive to improve.

Threads like this would not happen if players sought to encourage, support, and give meaningful advice at all levels instead of belittling their teammates for mistakes or a lack of knowledge.

Lux OP2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2018-04-11T14:05:08.143+0000)

Disabling in-game chat would defeat a large part of League's purpose as a teamwork-oriented game where communication matters.

  1. Pings
  2. Clicking the timers
  3. Discord

I've been playing this game for 9 years. In-game chat is used for strategy basically never, especially now with so many non-chat options for communication. When someone is actively playing, stopping to type means losing CS, losing kill, losing objectives. Keeping cruft like in-game chat prominent and available when it is the source of so many complaints, from old and new players alike, is a terrible decision on Riot's part.

Giving players free reign to be verbally abusive would also defeat Riot's goal of fostering a friendly, helpful, respectful community.

  1. Abuse is, by definition, only bestowable from a position of power where the target is unable to escape. Leage of Legends players do not have the ability to verbally abuse each other in game because the recipient of unwanted remarks has the power to mute that player, thus verbal abuse does NOT occur on League of Legends. Negative attitude, maybe, which is to be expected when a team member is screwing up in competitive, but do NOT call it abuse because it is NOT abuse. Calling it that is insulting to victims of actual abuse.

  2. Riot's current approach doesn't foster a respectful community, it fosters a community of players who feel justified in their bad decisions (like queueing in the competitive Ranked mode with zero idea of how the game works) because they get flamed for ruining the experience for four other players. They feel bad because people don't like them for ruining the game and wasting everyone's time, and instead of taking that feeling and doing something with it like either a) improving or b) staying out of ranked mode because they don't like the pressure, they report people and feel like the righteous victim of injustice. Which is why the queue is so bad.

And long and short of it is that players who are verbally abusive need to find other outlets for their frustration. Not banning them simply keeps the toxicity in the more experienced League population, and also gives it no incentive to improve.

No such thing as verbal abuse on League of Legends. Abuse is persistent. Harassment is persistent. They are real phenomena. Neither can be negated by pushing tab and clicking mute. Riot needs to step back and get some perspective if they are seriously considering mutable in-game chat "abuse", and if that really IS their position, then they need to stop providing such a convenient avenue for "abusers". By removing the cruft known as in-game chat.

The frustration these so-called "abusers" express arises from people who don't know what the hell they're doing. I agree that attitude should not move into normals, but the only reason it ever would is because Riot is banning people and forcing them to reroll brand new accounts. This is a disastrous move.

Threads like this would not happen if players sought to encourage, support, and give meaningful advice at all levels instead of belittling their teammates for mistakes or a lack of knowledge.

In ranked competition it is not our job to teach people not to feed, not to play AD jungle Soraka, etc. The reason he is calling his support a newb in the OP is probably because the support is, in fact, a newb. This problem would never have happened had his original account not been banned, which brings us back to the problem of the punishment system funnelling toxicity into sub-30 games.

Sweet Sayonara1 votes

  1. My comment was in response to the top lane asking "what is going on bot lane? tower down at 8 mins". The reason: support had spent the previous 3 mins in mid lane and I was pushed out of lane. One person ruined an entire game for four other.

  2. Are you saying definitely that saying "newb [role]" is objective grounds for restriction or banishment? Are you saying that in 100% of cases when someone says "newb support" they will be punished? Is this Riot's official position? Don't waste my time with conjecture.

  3. The only difference between "generally inoffensive language in a manner that belittles others" and calling out others when they intentionally ruin the game for the rest of their team is your point of few (in other words, it's subjective). The point I have tried to make is that a punishment system that can completely ban an account - with real money at stake - should be free of subjectivity and clear to all. That is simply not what we have here and I have been inappropriately punished twice now and Riot has taken 200 USD of my money. Not cool.

ModThe Djinn6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-04-11T14:05:46.899+0000)1. My comment was in response to the top lane asking "what is going on bot lane? tower down at 8 mins". The reason: support had spent the previous 3 mins in mid lane and I was pushed out of lane. One person ruined an entire game for four other.

  1. Are you saying definitely that saying "newb [role]" is objective grounds for restriction or banishment? Are you saying that in 100% of cases when someone says "newb support" they will be punished? Is this Riot's official position? Don't waste my time with conjecture.

I am saying that, no matter what another player has done, spending the better part of the game implying they are bad or are playing badly is something that is punishable. Literally every line in the log below is basically blaming your support or complaining about his gameplay. That's not okay, and it is something Riot will reliably punish you for.

Sweet Sayonara: what are you doing??' Sweet Sayonara: why?? Sweet Sayonara: i need you bot lane Sweet Sayonara: gg Sweet Sayonara: im done
Sweet Sayonara: newb support Sweet Sayonara: going mid Sweet Sayonara: wow Sweet Sayonara: im amazed Sweet Sayonara: support Sweet Sayonara: where are you? Sweet Sayonara: what are you doing? Sweet Sayonara: this guy Sweet Sayonara: report Sweet Sayonara: i cant farm Sweet Sayonara: no support Sweet Sayonara: support Sweet Sayonara: come Sweet Sayonara: on Sweet Sayonara: all you have to do is use your knock up Sweet Sayonara: pay attention Sweet Sayonara: support

The point I have tried to make is that a punishment system that can completely ban an account - with real money at stake - should be free of subjectivity and clear to all. That is simply not what we have here and I have been inappropriately punished twice now and Riot has taken 200 USD of my money. Not cool.

When you set hard lines in the sand for behavior, players simply skirt as close to those lines as possible and claim they were following the rules. This is why most games (or organizations, for that matter) with behavioral rules keep somewhat ambiguous terms like "don't insult or belittle other players" or "don't be a jerk."

Lux OP1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-04-11T14:14:45.782+0000)

When you set hard lines in the sand for behavior, players simply skirt as close to those lines as possible and claim they were following the rules. This is why most games (or organizations, for that matter) with behavioral rules keep somewhat ambiguous terms like "don't insult or belittle other players" or "don't be a jerk."

That's what most of the players who aren't banned in Bronze and Silver have figured out, which is why they troll with gameplay instead.

HalcyonDweller3 votes

That catches up to them eventually. And at some point the line is so blurred between trolling and bad gameplay that as long as you have a handle on your own temper and don't blast people for being stupid then the trolls among them get nothing out of it.

Lux OP1 votes

All I see on these forums are complaints from people who get banned for chat. There were bans that went out for inting awhile back and those bans were redacted because many of them were bullshit and people were getting banned for having one or two (very) bad games. Many bans went out recently because of "third party software" and were redacted because they were bullshit and any programs used didn't do anything to give an unfair mechanical gameplay advantage. But chat is ambiguous and the line between "toxic speech" and normal fucking video game banter is so thin that Riot hasn't had to backpedal on the kind of insane bullshit their automated system has churned out over the last couple of years. Not because the system is good, just because it isn't as obviously cancerous as the other two systems were and people blame themselves for being normal human beings with natural reactions to disappointment instead of asking why the hell Riot cares so fucking much about what people say to each other in ranked.

And yeah, I'm salty, because when I put money into this game I didn't expect them to implement an automated permaban system that only looks at chat and not at gameplay or how the interaction between someone with a bunch of gameplay complaints could be absolutely integral to an otherwise normal person being verbally toxic under certain circumstances. I figured they'd keep their focus on developing and refining their game, and not venture into the realm of whatever weird psychological experiment their player behavior team is conducting.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lux OP,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-04-12T04:27:05.227+0000)

All I see on these forums are complaints from people who get banned for chat. There were bans that went out for inting awhile back and those bans were redacted because many of them were bullshit and people were getting banned for having one or two (very) bad games. Many bans went out recently because of "third party software" and were redacted because they were bullshit and any programs used didn't do anything to give an unfair mechanical gameplay advantage.

Actually only some of the bans were redacted. Plenty remained. The ban-waves did catch people who were guilty of things, they just also happened to catch a few innocent people as well. Nothing a support ticket couldn't fix anyways.

But chat is ambiguous and the line between "toxic speech" and normal fucking video game banter is so thin that Riot hasn't had to backpedal on the kind of insane bullshit their automated system has churned out over the last couple of years. Not because the system is good, just because it isn't as obviously cancerous as the other two systems were and people blame themselves for being normal human beings with natural reactions to disappointment instead of asking why the hell Riot cares so fucking much about what people say to each other in ranked.

Banter should be directed at opponents. Don't smack talk random strangers who are on your team if you care at all about having them cooperate and help you win. Additionally things cross the line from banter into toxic speech when you start making personal insults. "Nice play" after the opponents lose a fight is very different from "I didn't know you were mentally disabled." - Just a fine example from a player in one of my recent games.

And yeah, I'm salty, because when I put money into this game I didn't expect them to implement an automated permaban system that only looks at chat and not at gameplay or how the interaction between someone with a bunch of gameplay complaints could be absolutely integral to an otherwise normal person being verbally toxic under certain circumstances. I figured they'd keep their focus on developing and refining their game, and not venture into the realm of whatever weird psychological experiment their player behavior team is conducting.

Teams work separately, they haven't stopped developing and refining the game. And toxicity has been enough of a problem that creating a player behavior team was warranted. This game is a lot more fun when people aren't flaming each other into oblivion. I'd much rather people get restricted and hopefully reformed rather than have them persist in flaming other players whenever they get upset.

Negativity1 votes

My

AeroWaffle11 votes

Just about most of the chat is spent complaining about the support. Especially given the level that you're at (you have less than 15 games played on your account it looks like, people are going to be noobs at that level). But this alone is pretty light, are you sure there wasn't anything else that comes to mind that would have contributed towards this punishment?

In general I'm see more of these quick restrictions on new accounts pop up, and it's always with people who have recently received permanent bans on one of their other accounts. My guess would be that Riot is starting to keep the hammer swinging fast against those they deem to be smurfs or that there was something else that contributed to the restriction.

Either way, a support ticket would likely be in your best interest.

Lux OP1 votes

[deleted]

zPOOPz6 votes

Why are you so hot and bothered enough to reply to him when the thread isn't even yours? Pot meets kettle if you want to go into the "none of your business" route.

The IFS judged each individual chat log on its own without context from outside sources because everyone is responsible for their own actions. This is about OP's behavior on the Summoner's Rift and knowledge of whatever mode is not required to discuss OP's behaviors.

Lux OP1 votes

  1. Because the system is shit and points to a a major problem in the design of the game (in-game chat, especially in ranked play). This guy showed up in another thread talking about how non-toxic the game is compared to years ago, not disclosing that this is only because he solely plays on meme game modes where roles don't matter, meta doesn't matter, game knowledge doesn't matter, and champion pool doesn't matter (this is especially fucking important when it comes to accounts being potentially banned). His experience is not indicative of ranked or even normal draft.

  2. The IFS is fucking garbage and has created a situation where players are banned from their main accounts for toxicity and end up with new accounts playing in normals with players who don't know what they're doing. They're frustrated because they lost their champion pool and skins, they're frustrated because they have to level up to 30 again to play the mode they are interested in playing, and they're frustrated because they're playing against other banned players so the games aren't a cakewalk but take a fair amount of effort to win at times but sometimes the weakest link on their team is weaker than the weakest link on the opponent's team by a much farther margin since there are so many smurfs now. That doesn't sound like a system that discourages toxicity to me. It is a system that practically guarantees it.

  3. There is one chat log in this case.

zPOOPz4 votes

  1. meta or role or whatever do not disqualify someone from being able to discuss behavior problems. The only time they matter is if meta or role somehow is a legitimate excuse for being toxic and we all know that is not true. There is NO excuse for being toxic even in the face of trolling, off-meta pick, not communicating, inting, etc.

  2. That is the unfortunate side-effect of perma-banning someone I will agree with you. However, the number of banned players making new acct to be toxic as opposed to those banned players moving on to other games are small enough that Rito will accept that niche consquence. If you further weight that number against leaving those toxic players in general pool disrupting their established player base as opposed to new player pool, there is no reason not to permanently removed them from the general pool. No one on this board or Rito claimed to have a perfect system. Rito analyzes the risks and the effects of the system and take the lesser of the bigger evil (leaving toxic players in gen pop).

  3. The IFS shows OP his most recent validly reported game. It happened to be 1 game. It does not mean there are not many other validly reported games in OP's history that is not shown.

Lux OP1 votes

{quoted}

  1. meta or role or whatever do not disqualify someone from being able to discuss behavior problems. The only time they matter is if meta or role somehow is a legitimate excuse for being toxic and we all know that is not true. There is NO excuse for being toxic even in the face of trolling, off-meta pick, not communicating, inting, etc.

A lack of understanding of meta and role means a lack of perspective on situations where the toxicity did not originate from the person who used "toxic speech" but from a person who is disrupting gameplay. If the only measure of toxicity you look at is speech, then you are running a chat program, not a competitive video game. In competitive live events like Super Smash Bro's, do you think that anyone would blame a player for saying "FUCK OFF" to someone who unplugged their controller during a team 2v2? The player who removed the controller would be removed from the tournament and probably banned from future tournaments. The players whose games were messed with might be given a caution but probably everyone in the audience would have been booing so loudly that nobody noticed the expletives. There is a logic to that situation that the IFS completely disregards in favor of being a fucking chat moderating program, which has no place in a competitive online game.

Now, if someone tripped over a cord and screwed it up accidentally (or played ranked without having any idea what they were doing) they still might get yelled at because they messed up a game, but if it was an accident they probably wouldn't be thrown out of the tournament and all future tournaments. However, again, people getting upset and vocalizing it are not in the wrong, they're just reacting like normal people to an abnormal situation. Some people curse more than others. It does not mean they aren't justified in being angry. Luckily, in League, we can mute them and we don't need a referee or an usher to remove them.

  1. That is the unfortunate side-effect of perma-banning someone I will agree with you. However, the number of banned players making new acct to be toxic as opposed to those banned players moving on to other games are small enough that Rito will accept that niche consquence. If you further weight that number against leaving those toxic players in general pool disrupting their established player base as opposed to new player pool, there is no reason not to permanently removed them from the general pool. No one on this board or Rito claimed to have a perfect system. Rito analyzes the risks and the effects of the system and take the lesser of the bigger evil (leaving toxic players in gen pop).

I really don't think Riot is keeping track. They just really don't want to admit they are wrong since stonewalling complaints by directing people to a FAQ team that can't/won't do anything has worked so far. But I think with this last wave of 3rd party mistake bans, people actually know what it feels like to lose access to the content they spent time and money unlocking, and maybe take it a little more seriously now. There are better ways to stop people who use chat for purely toxic reasons than permabanning their accounts. Like disabling chat entirely.

  1. The IFS shows OP his most recent validly reported game. It happened to be 1 game. It does not mean there are not many other validly reported games in OP's history that is not shown.

Whatever the case, IFS is still trash since it isn't designed to deal with the frustration naturally arising from other problems in Riot's report and punishment system (such as the complete lack of actual game awareness in the system). This should have been nipped in the bud before it was ever implemented and now that we have the gift of hindsight it needs to be addressed. It is encouraging all of the wrong things and making the game very unfriendly toward new players in the process.

Sweet Sayonara1 votes

Well said.

AeroWaffle6 votes

How do you want me to reply to this?

You didn't address my argument at all in your post. All you did was attack me.

Lux OP1 votes

Your argument, whether you know it or not, is that ADC mains shouldn't communicate with support, or communicate to the team that their lane is in trouble because the support doesn't have any idea what they're doing. And further down, someone with the pink border says that people should express themselves thoughtfully and help people improve- as if ADCs can stop CSing and dodging harass to write a book on how to not feed while they're trying not to fall behind in lane. Now, that suggestion would be fine if it were a smurf playing voluntarily with new players. It is not fine when the system banned this guy's original account for "Mean Words" and is now forcing him to play with people who are new to the game, against people who are not.

There are too many people shilling for the punishment system as it exists. This doesn't actually help because the system desperately needs to be re-examined and fixed, there are several ways to do that. It does not help when people mindlessly ignore the bigger picture.

AeroWaffle8 votes

Your argument, whether you know it or not, is that ADC mains shouldn't communicate with support, or communicate to the team that their lane is in trouble because the support doesn't have any idea what they're doing. And further down, someone with the pink border says that people should express themselves thoughtfully and help people improve- as if ADCs can stop CSing and dodging harass to write a book on how to not feed.

Very little actual advice was given. Only exclamations of what the support was doing (and that the support was a noob). That's not helpful advice. They might as well have not said anything if that's how they voice their dissatisfaction with the support.

It would be like telling a blitz player, "Stop missing your hook". It accomplishes nothing other than you don't like that they're missing the hook.

This line;

Sweet Sayonara: i need you bot lane

Was probably their few legitimate lines of chat that wasn't useless complaining.

Now, that would be fine if it were a smurf playing voluntarily with new players. It is not fine when the system banned this guy's original account for "Mean Words" and is now forcing him to play with people who are new to the game, against people who are not.

What does that have to do with this punishment? You can spend all day toss out hypothetical of what skill level he "should" have been match up with but the reality is that his account is low level and much more likely to run into new players. Why should someone be overly critical of a new player playing a like a new player?

Colte3 votes

too bad the autoban system won't freaking ban the guys that intentionally die 8-10 times

[sg-soraka]

Hextech OwI3 votes

Sweet Sayonara: newb support Sweet Sayonara: report

There you go.

Kei1433 votes

Asking for reports counts as harassment against you.

You calling people newb doesn't help.

Giving up is pretty much shunned upon.

On top of that, the Japanese server is the most sensitive to toxicity amongst all servers. You probably would have gotten away with it for a few more games if you were on EUNE or LAN.

Sweet Sayonara1 votes

Thanks. This is helpful.

I find it incredible that there are clear 'donts' but Riot leaves for us to figure out the hard way.

Kei1431 votes

Yeap, because Riot isn't the one making the rules, the community is the ones making the rules as the IFS learns from our reports.

Some thing can be said in some reigons and some reigons won't tolerate it. As I've mentioned before, JP has one of the tightest rules in regards to behavior, so any negativity there will probably work against you.

Colgate Gator2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sweet Sayonara,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3LBvdPEg,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-04-11T11:32:59.724+0000)

Sweet Sayonara: gg Sweet Sayonara: im done\

kek.

Ren Amari1 votes

“The only ones who should kill, are those who are prepared to be killed.” Same goes here when you report people. Sorry, i agree with you on how the reporting system is ass, but you deserve it if you use it.

EL HAMSTERO1 votes

dont try to get others to report someone and dont ever say 'im done'

dKiWi1 votes

what i am getting from this thread is that the words 'noob' and 'newb' are not allowed.

i have rpted ppl who only said these words and got instant feedback notifications

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