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Philosophy behind the new leavebuster

Cutepoledancer··4 votes·942 views

As much as I agree a teammate leaving a game can be frustrating, I am actually concerned about the way Riot is dealing with the whole issue.

First of all, the punishment system in place is purely there to punish people to teach them a lesson. Anybody saying otherwise isn't aware of the large pool of people playing the game (refuting the argument: "By punishing people with a bad behavior, we won't play with them again).

Personally, I don't believe in the "teaching a lesson" philosophy. However, it has shown some results throughout history in various real life situations, so I don't deny it's efficiency. This thread isn't about this.

I am making this thread to talk about an issue related to it. As a big player of League (1 to 5 games a day, everyday), I spend an enormous ammount of time on the rift. So of course, as nothing is perfect, I'll sometimes experience a technical issue (3 times last month according to the riot employee I've had the pleasure of chatting with for a few days via e-mails). That's roughly 4% of my games, I had to disconnect. Yet, everytime I came back and did my best to salvage the 4v5 I left behind. Thus, showing an intention of playing, and not simply showing bad behaviors.

However, I was still put in a lower queue. I can wait out that time: simply turn on youtube or my favorite TV show and here I am telling my team if they don't let me fill I'll afk. The problem I have with this, is that I was punished, not for my intentions, but rather on situations I have no power over (unless you tell me I can guarantee my ISP to never have a hick up). It is extremely frightening Riot has came down to this: punishing "criminals" and "innocents" alike because on their logs they show similar behaviors. It would be simple to adjust the leavebuster so it doesn't punish people coming back to play, yet they haven't put that function in. Which tells me it's working the way they intended to. In Riot's mind, it is perfectly acceptable to punish people with no ill intent in a quest to punish those with one.

On a side note, people with ill intents sit at the fountain and walk around while watching youtube videos to avoid such consequences (most of the time). I doubt Riot isn't aware of that, but it seems like it doesn't matter.

Last thing, when I came back to play a few days ago and had a 20 minutes queue, it put me in an extremely bad mood (being punished unfairly is extremely irritating to me), thus causing me to be extremely displeasant with my teammates. This system isn't providing us with a leaver-free environment (they find ways to avoid it as I've explained above), it's creating an unhealthy community based off blind punishment for the bad and good alike.

In the end, it is a terrible system.

20 Comments

Eleshakai1 votes

Riot doesn't care about your intentions. They just care about placating the whiners who complain about leavers. They want those people to stop whining that Riot isn't doing anything about the leaver problem, and they don't really care who they hurt along the way.

I'm sorry to say it, but this argument has been done to death. I've given up fighting it and just quit the game. But I agree, it's morally wrong for Riot to punish people based off of circumstances they had no control over. Punishment should ALWAYS take intent into account, and any punishment system that is incapable of measuring intent is inherently flawed and immoral.

But Riot doesn't care. All they care is that the whiners who were bitching about how little Riot was doing about leavers are happy now. They care about enabling the poor addicts with the bad attitudes, about encouraging their unhealthy approach to the game and keeping them happy and paying. That's all Riot's PB team cares about these days, I'm afraid.

Frikgeek1 votes

Intentional or not, you are ruining games for others when you leave, you deserve to be banned or put in a lower priority queue. Intent is completely irrelevant here.

If it takes you more than 2-3 minutes to come back the game is probably already lost and the 4 people on your team have every right to report you.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

Intentional or not, you are ruining games for others when you leave, you deserve to be banned or put in a lower priority queue. Intent is completely irrelevant here.

If it takes you more than 2-3 minutes to come back the game is probably already lost and the 4 people on your team have every right to report you.

"Intentional or not, by killing someone you are ruining someone else's life and deserve to be put behind bars. It doesn't matter if you tripped and fell down the stairs and landed on someone... you still deserve to be punished"

Oh wait, it does matter. At least, it does in criminal law. But apparently leaving a game is somehow a WORSE OFFENSE than killing someone. Intent ALWAYS matters....... except in Leaverbuster. For some ridiculous reason.

The best part is they're not even ruining games.. someone leaving only ruins the game if you let it. It's your call to not have fun. If you choose to not enjoy the game, you have nobody to blame but yourself... except people don't like to hear that. They'd rather have a scapegoat. "Oh that guy's internet cut out so I couldn't have fun." Ridiculous.

Frikgeek1 votes

FUN? You think ranked games are engaging because they're FUN? Don't be stupid, they're engaging because they're challenging and competitive, not because they're fun. There are plenty of ways to enjoy a game besides fun and ruining the enjoyable things about a competitive game(the competition) IS ruining the game for the other players.

Also, Involuntary manslaughter IS A CRIME. You would get put behind bars for it. Sure you'd get a lower sentence than you would for voluntary manslaughter but it is still a crime.

Eleshakai2 votes

{quoted}

FUN? You think ranked games are engaging because they're FUN? Don't be stupid, they're engaging because they're challenging and competitive, not because they're fun. There are plenty of ways to enjoy a game besides fun and ruining the enjoyable things about a competitive game(the competition) IS ruining the game for the other players.

Also, Involuntary manslaughter IS A CRIME. You would get put behind bars for it. Sure you'd get a lower sentence than you would for voluntary manslaughter but it is still a crime.

if a challenge is all you're after... then a 4v5 is the biggest challenge you'll ever have. Look at it that way, and it'll be even more engaging. It's a chance to REALLY test yourself. The best challenge you'll ever get. And it is a chance to prove just how truly competitive you really are by WINNING or ALMOST winning a 4v5. There's nothing more satisfying.

Accidental death != manslaughter. Manslaughter means two people got into a fight and it went too far and someone died(or something along those lines - there was INTENT involved, but the intent was not to kill). You don't get punished for accidentally causing death. If I trip and fall down the stairs and land on someone, I'm not going to get punished at all unless someone can prove I intended to do it. Because there was no intent. Learn your definitions before you start parroting.

Frikgeek1 votes

No it isn't you fool, you know nothing about law. Involuntary manslaughter involves negligence or recklessness as well. Drunk driving, speeding, improper handling of weapons(like not keeping your weapon holstered with the safety on) all count as involuntary manslaughter. All had no intent to harm or kill another person. If you trip and fall down the stairs because you were reckless or drunk you are going to get punished. Not that you could kill someone by falling down the stairs anyway, it's a ludicrous example.

And no, 4v5s aren't challenging or competitive, they're just about waiting for 20 minutes and surrendering. There's nothing satisfying about playing 4v5. If you somehow win you'll know it's because you're playing against total idiots, not because you played well. If both teams are near equal skill a 4v5 is a handicap you can't overcome.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

No it isn't you fool, you know nothing about law. Involuntary manslaughter involves negligence or recklessness as well. Drunk driving, speeding, improper handling of weapons(like not keeping your weapon holstered with the safety on) all count as involuntary manslaughter. All had no intent to harm or kill another person. If you trip and fall down the stairs because you were reckless or drunk you are going to get punished. Not that you could kill someone by falling down the stairs anyway, it's a ludicrous example.

And no, 4v5s aren't challenging or competitive, they're just about waiting for 20 minutes and surrendering. There's nothing satisfying about playing 4v5. If you somehow win you'll know it's because you're playing against total idiots, not because you played well. If both teams are near equal skill a 4v5 is a handicap you can't overcome.

Yes Criminal Negligence ups accidental death to manslaughter. Because it's CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE.(Mishandling weapons, drunk driving, speeding, etc. are all against the law) Accidents caused without other criminal input aren't manslaughter. It requires CRIMINAL negligence for it to be manslaughter(without intent).

But keep talking like you have a clue what you're talking about lol

And that second paragraph there shows the pathetic mindset I referred to earlier. You don't really want a challenge. You don't really enjoy the game. You just like winning. If you REALLY wanted to challenge yourself, you'd strive to win on those 4v5s and see them as a challenge, not an imposition. Not a negative. They'd just be another facet of the game. But you have no competitive drive, no desire to improve. You just want to win. That's all you care about. And it's a silly, pathetic mindset.

Frikgeek1 votes

If your computer breaks down that's YOUR fault for not caring about it, cleaning it, or watching what kind of crap you put on there. If your internet connection is unstable that's YOUR fault, you should get a more reliable wireless dongle or just use LAN. If your ISP is regularly crashing then it's YOUR fault for not using a more reliable option. You should be held responsible for that.

Strive to win a game you can only win if the enemy is retarded? There's nothing competitive or challenging about it, the power isn't in your hands. Most competitive chess games never actually reach a check-mate, they end by one player conceding. Do competitive chess players lack drive or the desire to improve simply because they don't hold out hope that their opponent will suddenly go full retard? Winning a game because your opponents were complete morons won't help you improve and neither will losing a game you had no chance of winning anyway.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

If your computer breaks down that's YOUR fault for not caring about it, cleaning it, or watching what kind of crap you put on there. If your internet connection is unstable that's YOUR fault, you should get a more reliable wireless dongle or just use LAN. If your ISP is regularly crashing then it's YOUR fault for not using a more reliable option. You should be held responsible for that.

Strive to win a game you can only win if the enemy is retarded? There's nothing competitive or challenging about it, the power isn't in your hands. Most competitive chess games never actually reach a check-mate, they end by one player conceding. Do competitive chess players lack drive or the desire to improve simply because they don't hold out hope that their opponent will suddenly go full retard? Winning a game because your opponents were complete morons won't help you improve and neither will losing a game you had no chance of winning anyway.

Chess has a literal formula behind it - at any given moment there is a maximum number of moves you could do that can be measured in hundreds.(each pawn can only do one move, two if they're at their start point, knights only have 8 possible moves - less if spots are occupied or near the edge, etc. etc. etc.). If you can see all the possible moves you could do and none of them can lead to victory... then there's no reason to play. It is the purest form of competition in that it is that formulaic. It's what makes it so beautiful as a game.

League of Legends isn't that. It is FAR messier. League of Legends has millions of possible moves at any given time, and it's impossible to predict every move an enemy could do... so you can outplay them in a literal fashion by coming up with something they could never predict. If you don't lack the drive to PROVE yourself by outplaying. If Faker 3v1s, are those three people going full retard, or is he just THAT good? You don't think you're capable of being that much better than your opponents? Then no, you have no drive. At all. All it takes is one dramatic outplay to give your team an advantage they can push even with that disadvantage. You just have to be THAT good. If you don't have the drive to be THAT good... then you have no drive. Yes it's hard, but winning against seemingly impossible odds is the ultimate accomplishment... I remember back in the original StarCraft we'd design seemingly insurmountable maps for the purpose of trying ourselves against absurd odds - like the game that LoL originally spawned from. The originally Aeon of Strife was hugely difficult and was fighting against absurd odds. Gamers these days are so childish.

As to your first paragraph... wow. What a pathetic attitude. You're acting like these people who disconnect are violating your sister and killing your parents at the same time. They're just PLAYING A VIDEO GAME WITH AN UNSTABLE INTERNET CONNECTION. It's REALLY a small deal. It shouldn't even bother you. Why do you make such a big deal that they're forced to quit and they should restructure their ENTIRE life around this game? It's just a game. Even in ranked, it's JUST A GAME.

Frikgeek1 votes

It's a small deal. Just like being banned or put in a lower priority queue is a small deal. Small offense, small punishment. It still is an offense though. Doesn't mean it should simply be ignored.

No, you can't win a 4v5 by being "THAT" good unless you're smurfing. When I smurf in gold-plat 4v5s are the easiest thing ever since all the enemies are really bad, not because I'm THAT good.

A single 3v1 fight doesn't mean that much, especially if you're ahead. A 4v5 game will simply be lost because the enemies have an extra champion to put pressure on the map. If they have any sense they'll outward you, outpush you, and take a ton of objectives for free. Unless they try a really idiotic dive or get caught like morons they can't lose.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

It's a small deal. Just like being banned or put in a lower priority queue is a small deal. Small offense, small punishment. It still is an offense though. Doesn't mean it should simply be ignored.

No, you can't win a 4v5 by being "THAT" good unless you're smurfing. When I smurf in gold-plat 4v5s are the easiest thing ever since all the enemies are really bad, not because I'm THAT good.

A single 3v1 fight doesn't mean that much, especially if you're ahead. A 4v5 game will simply be lost because the enemies have an extra champion to put pressure on the map. If they have any sense they'll outward you, outpush you, and take a ton of objectives for free. Unless they try a really idiotic dive or get caught like morons they can't lose.

Being forced completely out of your hobby is not a small punishment. But I can see people don't matter to you, only winning. So pointless to talk to you really. You don't really enjoy the game, you just enjoy the victory screen. And you're blind to the fact trhat that's true, so you scapegoat this thing.

Frikgeek1 votes

So being forced out of lol for a week is not a small punishment? But it's JUST A GAME, isn't it? You're such a hypocrite. How is that not a small punishment if ruining that same hobby for others is a small deal?

I like how you somehow came to the conclusion that "I like the victory screen" simply because I refuse to play games where your only chance of winning lies in the enemy being retarded. I don't even want to win against complete morons, the only reason I even had a smurf was to have an account on EUW. And I don't enjoy winning simply because someone on the enemy team DCd.

Scapegoat? Oh please, I'm not scapegoating shit. If I enjoyed the victory screen so much I would enjoy more afks as they're more likely to be on the enemy team than they are on mine.

You're probably in plat or maybe even lower, you've never played against an organised team that knows how to abuse pressure properly. You think winning a 4v5 comes to winning 4v5 teamfights or some bs because you only ever play vs shitty players. If the enemy team even lets you teamfight when they have an extra champion they're bad and not abusing the pressure they have.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

So being forced out of lol for a week is not a small punishment? But it's JUST A GAME, isn't it? You're such a hypocrite. How is that not a small punishment if ruining that same hobby for others is a small deal?

I like how you somehow came to the conclusion that "I like the victory screen" simply because I refuse to play games where your only chance of winning lies in the enemy being retarded. I don't even want to win against complete morons, the only reason I even had a smurf was to have an account on EUW. And I don't enjoy winning simply because someone on the enemy team DCd.

Scapegoat? Oh please, I'm not scapegoating shit. If I enjoyed the victory screen so much I would enjoy more afks as they're more likely to be on the enemy team than they are on mine.

You're probably in plat or maybe even lower, you've never played against an organised team that knows how to abuse pressure properly. You think winning a 4v5 comes to winning 4v5 teamfights or some bs because you only ever play vs shitty players. If the enemy team even lets you teamfight when they have an extra champion they're bad and not abusing the pressure they have.

No, I'm not a hypocrite about this. I've done hypocritical things, but you're just too blinded by your own idiocy to realize what is happening here.

Being completely forced out of a hobby is a big deal. Hobbies are important.

Nobody can POSSIBLY ruin your hobby for you unless you are completely forced out of it. That's the difference. Youi are MAKING THE CHOICE TO LET THEM RUIN IT. This person can't MAKE your hobby be ruined. You chose to let it be ruined. It is 100% your choice to let a leaver bother you. Yours. Nobody can 'ruin your hobby' unless they completely force you to not play it. YOUR CHOICE. Yours. You are MAKING THE CHOICE to let the leaver ruin it. They are not ruining it, you are ruining it by making assumptions like 'the only chance is the enemy being retarded'. Sorry buddy... but you are ruining your hobby, not them.

Have I repeated it enough to get through to you? Probably not, because you're stuck in the same stupid loop of defeatism that so many are. But holy crap, how do we let people grow up with such a pathetic outlook? I don't understand kids these days... what are they being taught?

Frikgeek1 votes

Kids? You're the kid here if all you know is blind optimism and obviously unrealistic ideals. So if someone is objectively reducing the quality of a game he's not ruining it? That's just bullshit and you know it. You're not making the choice to let a leaver ruin the game because the game is OBJECTIVELY worse when it's not fair.

That's like saying that a game of football isn't ruined if someone punctures the ball, that it's your choice to let a completely flat ball ruin your hobby even though you can't do much with a flat ball.

That's what 4v5s are like, there is nothing you can do with them aside from waiting 20 minutes then winning or losing by surrender.

You can repeat your stupid mantra all you like, I know my view is backed by facts, winrate when a teammate has disconnected before the game starts in diamond+ is under 5%. And I get matched against incompetent retards that give me a free win more than 5% of the time.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

Kids? You're the kid here if all you know is blind optimism and obviously unrealistic ideals. So if someone is objectively reducing the quality of a game he's not ruining it? That's just bullshit and you know it. You're not making the choice to let a leaver ruin the game because the game is OBJECTIVELY worse when it's not fair.

That's like saying that a game of football isn't ruined if someone punctures the ball, that it's your choice to let a completely flat ball ruin your hobby even though you can't do much with a flat ball.

That's what 4v5s are like, there is nothing you can do with them aside from waiting 20 minutes then winning or losing by surrender.

You can repeat your stupid mantra all you like, I know my view is backed by facts, winrate when a teammate has disconnected before the game starts in diamond+ is under 5%. And I get matched against incompetent retards that give me a free win more than 5% of the time.

They are SUBJECTIVELY reducing the quality of the game. Some of the most fun gmaes I've ever had have been 4v5s - I've put up some damned good fights in 4v5s and gotten to practice some skills that aren't easy to practice in even games but can be important. The quality of the game is ENTIRELY 100% subjective.

That is a really bad analogy. A flat ball actually reduces the ability to play the game. Many actions you'd normally take are factually impossible. A missing player just reduces your chance of victory. You can still do everything you'd do otherwise, you just have reduced odds of success. That's all. It simply raises the bar for what is considered 'acceptable' performance if you wish to succeed. But far more importantly it presents you with an opportunity to practice skills that can be difficult to practice in a normal game which means that those games are valuable. Because while those skills are hard to practice in normal games they can be very IMPORTANT in a normal game.

The two parts of your post that are genuinely factually incorrect are the word 'objectively' and "There is nothing you can do with them aside from waiting to surrender".

Frikgeek1 votes

That's only true if you're playing against low Elo scrubs who can't pressure. Missing a player reduces what you can do in a game. Most split strats are impossible to execute and all you're left with is a very simple "let's try to fight them 4v5 and hope we win", which a good team simply won't let you do. No matter how well you play all the enemy has to do is play passively and transition into a 1-3-1 splitpush midgame while counterwarding and you won't be able to match their pressure.

It's not subjective, you are denied 90% of strategic options when you're missing a player. All rotations and all split strategies are simply closed off.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

{quoted}

That's only true if you're playing against low Elo scrubs who can't pressure. Missing a player reduces what you can do in a game. Most split strats are impossible to execute and all you're left with is a very simple "let's try to fight them 4v5 and hope we win", which a good team simply won't let you do. No matter how well you play all the enemy has to do is play passively and transition into a 1-3-1 splitpush midgame while counterwarding and you won't be able to match their pressure.

It's not subjective, you are denied 90% of strategic options when you're missing a player. All rotations and all split strategies are simply closed off.

Don't bother with that guy, the only 2 cards in his hand are "you are evil or sick" and "you should like something you don't".

EL HAMSTERO1 votes

although i somewhat agree with you, there is no way for riot to determine your intent when you disconnect from the game.

they are trying to punish ragequitters. even though, as you said, ragequitters now just feed or afk farm the jungle, riot will point towards fewer leavers overall and claim the leaverbuster is a great success.

Cookie Troll1 votes

You are playing a game that creates a competitive environment. When you dc from the game no matter how long it takes you hinder the competitiveness of your team. Yes you are meant to have fun but peoples versions of fun differ - some just enjoy the game while others take pride in being the best they can. When you dc your hindering that person from being his best because he now has to take into account they are at a numbers disadvantage. An assassin thats been wrecking now has to take into account that you wont be there for follow up providing that damage he might need to survive or get away. I understand we cant control everything but when your playing on an unstable ISP you should be put with others with the same issue in low priority as to not hinder those. Its not a totally fair system but nothing is. You might try your hardest but one misplay while your gone and you being there could have changed that misplay. Okay you come back and try but you still cost your team.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

Leaverbuster is just as much about punishing frequent connection issues as it is rage quitters. Queuing knowing you having connection issues is not being innocent and 4% is an extremely high % of games have issues in. If everyone left 4% of their games then basically 40% of games would end 4v5.

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