36 Comments
Malicious Metal3 votesI have to disagree actually. Black Sabbath is one of THE best but there is no such thing as the ONE Metal band as every single one of them brought something new to the table and makes Metal as diverse as it is. Be it Maiden's ballads Metallica's provocative Lyrics Motörhead's heavy riffs Judas Priest's sheer power
And last but not least the Voice of Metal, Dio's dreamy songs. Black Sabbath did bring forth the best in both Dio and Ozzy, both of them eventually thriving in a solo environment and bringing us awesome songs like Crazy Train and Holy Diver.
Laughing Fish2 votesWell, I think that settles it. Pretty sure the master of metal knows the genre best. We must obey the master. http://data.whicdn.com/images/227486974/large.gif
Malicious Metal3 votesI am the Pastor of Muppets! Erm... the Master of Puppets!
Honestly though, always glad to discuss musical tastes with other people and Black Sabbath does frequent my playlist, especially their new Album 13 and classics like Iron Man^^
Laughing Fish1 votes13 is surprisingly good. It is quite rare a band comes back together decades later and just picks up where they left off. Age of Reason is especially good, and God Is Dead? may be their greatest lyrical achievement.
Pandemic Punch2 votesInnovative in their time? Absolutely. Greatest of all time? Absolutely not. Today's most mediocre bands are vastly more capable on a technical level vocally, lyrically, and instrumentally. If Black Sabbath came out today, they would be the laughing stock of the internet.
Since we live in the days of the internet, we have so much information and so much music available to us. No one could get away with that many flaws now days unless they have already made a name for themselves. Like ACDC for example. If they were brand new right now, their vocalist would be deemed one of the worst professional vocalists of all time.
It just can't compete with bands like this.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRlHBTYKyVg on a technical level.
Edit: Granted that song in particular is subjective of whether or not it is actually metal.
Maximum Morde2 votesTechnical proficiency != good art. ACDC, Eagles, Sabbath, Queen, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd, Steve Miller, the list goes on and on. They are amazing artists whose work has stood for decades. Very few modern artists have that level of appeal, they simply haven't had the time yet to be on the same level. There are some that have the potential, but they just aren't there yet.
Laughing Fish2 votesQueen is an excellent example of art being more then technical mastery. Technically there are many singers and musicians better than Freddie Mercury. And yet despite that, he remains a legend who's work transcends all other "superior" songs. It is like this: An HD photograph has far more detail than a painting, and yet paintings are still more beautiful. Art is more than the sum of its parts.
Pandemic Punch1 votesVery few modern artists struggle to capture audiences because music is everywhere you look now. Back then it was a much bigger deal when a new band was coming out. Now days there is not as much hype because the market is so saturated.
Laughing Fish4 votesinstrumentally Black Sabbath remains a legend because of Tony Iommi. Tony Iommi may not be technically superior to a lot of modern guitarist, but he has a style that is completely his own, and an understanding of the instrument that very few can rival. His sluggish but intense riffs remain the best I have ever heard.
Vocally Black Sabbath was never the best, but due to Ozzy's unique sound they have held up well. Other singers do not sing quite like him, and thus there is nobody strictly "better" or "worse" than him. It is completely a matter of taste.
Their Lyrics contain very interesting contradicting elements (Violently singing about nonviolence, singing about evil to demonstrate hope, calmly singing about emotional turmoil). It is far harder for Lyrics to get outdated, as unlike the other elements this is purely poetry, an art form that has existed since before written language itself. Lyrics either appeal to you or they don't, but modern lyrics are neither superior nor inferior to lyrics in the 70's and 80's.
Also, before you play the nostalgia card, I am 22 and only started listening to Black Sabbath like 2 years ago (my parents really hated them, so I didn't give them a chance for a long time).
Maximum Morde2 votes[{quoted}](name=Laughing Fish,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=kfM3MIEh,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-04-22T13:23:05.314+0000)
instrumentally Black Sabbath remains a legend because of Tony Iommi. Tony Iommi may not be technically superior to a lot of modern guitarist, but he has a style that is completely his own, and an understanding of the instrument that very few can rival. His sluggish but intense riffs remain the best I have ever heard.
Vocally Black Sabbath was never the best, but due to Ozzy's unique sound they have held up well. Other singers do not sing quite like him, and thus there is nobody strictly "better" or "worse" than him. It is completely a matter of taste.
Their Lyrics contain very interesting contradicting elements (Violently singing about nonviolence, singing about evil to demonstrate hope, calmly singing about emotional turmoil). It is far harder for Lyrics to get outdated, as unlike the other elements this is purely poetry, an art form that has existed since before written language itself. Lyrics either appeal to you or they don't, but modern lyrics are neither superior nor inferior to lyrics in the 70's and 80's.
Also, before you play the nostalgia card, I am 22 and only started listening to Black Sabbath like 2 years ago (my parents really hated them, so I didn't give them a chance for a long time).
Explore the 60s and 70s as much as you can. Such formative years for rock and metal. Take that understanding to 80s 90's and you might find some music you didn't think you were interested in suddenly is pretty good. Then jump forward to modern 2000s and 2010s work and the influence is clear. There is amazing work in every time period. Some pieces that may have seemed mediocre before suddenly take on a new light with different context.
Laughing Fish2 votesYeah, I have been trying to expand my horizons in music, and listening to bands and genres I don't normally listen to and seeing if there is anything I like. It is always funny to see my recommended music, as neither Pandora nor Amazon know what to make of my music choices. When you listen pop, metal, rap, instrumental, gothic, and dubstep, they eventually just start recommending whatever is most popular that day. Like "How about Adele? People like Adele, and you apparently will listen to anything."
Pandemic Punch1 votesThey remain legends because many people like them. Not because they are better than their competition on a technical level. I could argue that it was easier to get a following then as well considering how the market was not nearly as saturated. You won't get as many legends now days because you can go on YouTube and see thousands of non-professional instrumentalists infinitely more capable than these bands.
It is a shame innovative guitarists like Wes Borland don't get as much credit. Going from putting horse shoes inside of guitars, putting banjo strings on them, violin bows, one of the best users of the whammy bars ever, bass strings on guitar, and much more all in the name of trying to come up with an innovative sound that has never been heard before. Let us not even get started on his abilities on top of all of that.
When it comes to vocals, I am one myself so I kinda know what I am talking about when I say that Ozzy's voice is extremely weak and not nearly as capable. Here is where I give him credit. All we had were horrible screechy big hair band voices until Ozzy blew up on the scene. It is probably thanks to him that music took a more positive direction sooner rather than later.
When it comes to just liking Ozzy over anyone else despite the weaker voice then yes it is opinion and preference. However, it is not just opinion when we are focusing on the technical aspects of his vocals. He is very very very very very far behind. Many bands that I like are very very very very far behind. I wouldn't call them the best just because I like them or because they are the most popular.
The best vocalist (in my opinion) that I have ever heard so far is this guy... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMN5GJnYjrk&list=RD5Mr8qdZSk38&index=4
I won't let his limited popularity keep me from thinking it. His voice is so strong, passionate, and so high on a technical level. There are very few vocalists that can pull off everything that he does, but for the ones that are as technical I have to resort to "opinion" in the end.
Laughing Fish2 votesFirst, art is subjective. If enough people like it, than it can be considered good art. Take Van Gogh for example. His lines were sloppy, and he got proportions very wrong. And yet, he is considered one the greatest painters by most people (myself included). Why is this? Artist that can draw with far more detail and depth has been forgotten, but he remains. There is more to art than technical mastery.
As I stated before, technical mastery does not equal artistic mastery. Tony Iommi's work is like a great painting. Sure, an HD photograph will have an overwhelming amount more detail than a painting, and is technically superior in every way. And yet, the painting remains more beautiful. In the same way yes, there are many guitarist that can pull of more than Tony Iommi can, and have mastered the instrument beyond him. And yet, art is more than the sum of its parts, and Tony Iommi is an artist.
I have conceded that vocally Black Sabbath was never spectacular, but rather interesting. But while Ozzy is hardly the best singer, calling him incapable is kind of a stretch given his massive following and crazy career success.
Pandemic Punch1 votesYes art is subjective. I never said Ozzy was incapable.
Strongly strongly agree that art is subjective and is based on the opinion of the individual. But if we get into, "best of all time" talks then I believe technical ability needs to be taken into account. I don't want to say Bill Russell is a better basketball player technically than Michael Jordan just because Bill Russell won the most championships. There is an aspect of music that involves skill (and/or innovation) AND it has an art side.
Laughing Fish2 votesTechnical mastery is of course an element, but it is not the element. Just like a painter cannot paint if he doesn't know how to use a paint brush or mix colors correctly, a musician cannot create music until he has mastered his instrument. But instrument mastery itself is not art. Art is created using mastery. And yes, a higher level of mastery enhances your ability to create art just as a better paintbrush and canvas enhances your ability to paint, but does not make you the better artist.
Creativity is the most important ingredient to great art, and Black Sabbath is a highly creative band. Tony Iommi uses what technical mastery he has (which even if not the best, is quite a lot) in a more creative way than other guitarist.
Pandemic Punch1 votesI didn't say or imply that the mastery of an instrument is art. I agree that it is not THE element. However, if we are talking about greatest of all time, it should be taken into consideration.
Creativity is one thing I talked about in my first reply to you. I worded it as innovation. That is where my Wes Borland argument came into play to the extreme. Then we have a band like Korn. Weak vocals in todays standards but is beyond Ozzy as far as range, innovative style, unique sounding voice, and extreme creativity. Bassist took an innovative playing style and took it miles further with a percussive style with many unique effects used. I mean JESUS CHRIST this bass part... https://youtu.be/emNahB_96JY?t=31s
So I am seeing the dynamic of this debate and this will have to be a agree to disagree. I think skill and art needs to be taken into consideration when talking about the greatest of all time and you think art is the only part that needs to be considered. at least that is the impression I get. I am not hating. I get it. I am very skeptical of music.
Laughing Fish2 votesSo I am seeing the dynamic of this debate and this will have to be a agree to disagree. I think skill and art needs to be taken into consideration when talking about the greatest of all time and you think art is the only part that needs to be considered.
This is a fair point. I tend to judge all art by its presentation rather than technical mastery. For example, I love the Star Wars movies (Prequels included) even though the acting was sub-par and the dialog was rather clunky (plus the highly unappealing CGI in the prequels). The universe is so creative and so beautiful that I cannot help but marvel at it.
Pandemic Punch2 votesI admire your perception. Thanks for your maturity. Good talking with you.
PDE5 Inhib1 votes[{quoted}](name=Tarics Gemstones,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=kfM3MIEh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-04-22T13:09:16.710+0000)
Innovative in their time? Absolutely. Greatest of all time? Absolutely not. Today's most mediocre bands are vastly more capable on a technical level vocally, lyrically, and instrumentally. If Black Sabbath came out today, they would be the laughing stock of the internet.
I'm gonna stop you right there. First off, innovation is probably the biggest thing. Second, I wouldn't use today's standards. If MOST older musicians came out today, they wouldn't be very well accepted. Style is completely different and just because today's people wouldn't like it doesn't mean it isn't great. I mean, you're talking about a generation where Justin Bieber is popular. I love Breaking Benjamin. I wouldn't say they're greater than Black Sabbath just because their rifts are nicer lol....and I don't even like the vast majority of Black Sabbath stuff. I think Ozzy is a weirdo.
Pandemic Punch1 votesYou got much more to read in this thread. I already addressed pretty much all of it. As well as agreeing with innovation being one of the most important things and innovation has far surpassed Black Sabbath. Black Sabbath may have invented the wheel after taking all of the parts needed to assemble it from other bands, but many other bands took that wheel and built a U.F.O out of it. As more time passes, there will be bands that take that U.F.O and build planets out of it. Innovation has sped up vastly thanks to many bands constantly raising the bar as time moves forward.
Keevalroy4 votesInnovative in their time? Absolutely. Greatest of all time? Absolutely not. Today's most mediocre bands are vastly more capable on a technical level vocally, lyrically, and instrumentally. If Black Sabbath came out today,** they would be the laughing stock of the internet.**
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/706/073/4cf.jpg
Pandemic Punch1 voteshahahahaha!!!! You turd
Keevalroy2 votesPeople are downvoting this...
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/856/938/717.jpg
Edit: This image is better.
Laughing Fish1 votesThis is better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-PLsvk3U4
PDE5 Inhib1 votesOzzy?
Never heard of her.
Laughing Fish2 votes
PDE5 Inhib2 votesDid somebody say Prince?
https://i1.wp.com/media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/giphy.gif?fit=336%2C189
Laughing Fish1 votes
PDE5 Inhib2 votesPrince Ali, mighty as he, Ali Ababwa
http://38.media.tumblr.com/8d45adcff1289faca95d31ba6d808fd6/tumblr_n80ju6r3MI1sg4mvmo3_500.gif
Laughing Fish1 votes
PDE5 Inhib1 votesOk, see, I don't even have a clue who that is lol. That's a pretty feminine looking prince, though.
Maximum Morde2 votesIt's Prince Charming, I forget which movie. I wanna say one of the Shrek movies.
kaltenashes1 votes7 years ago when i first started to listen to heavy metal, yeah, both black sabbath with ozzy, ozzy's solo, dio's solo were the bands i listened and liked the most
right now i dont even hear their songs anymore, tbh i grew tired of most metal musics i loved
i still have a special spot in my heart for i've enjoyed musics from heavy to death metal michael kiske (every album he made, every single one), edguy/avantasia, judas priest,anathema, woods of ypres, epica, paradise lost, tyr
but then i discovered both, post-metal and folk metal and yeah, metal is good again, the best genre out there
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