Why Leaverbuster is wrong for League

YourMortgage··12 votes·4,254 views

Since the last patch I have had some DC issues and for the first time got a Leaverbuster notice from playing a bot game with a few friends. In looking to write on the boards about it I came across the leaverbuster thread. Browsing the comments the system seems universally hated, which I thought was probably a selection effect, but now that I think about it, it may not be. If it's working and people hate afks, why does everyone hate leaverbuster? Is it only the people who feel strongly enough to post?

It would be easy to assume that is the case, but a few comments were more detailed. One thing to note is the psychology of positive vs. negative reinforcement. Incentives in games that are based on positive reinforcement do tend to work much better, and this is arguably part of what initially made lol succeed. Perceived loss leads to stronger emotion than missed gain however, giving the subject a superfluous emotional charge for example. Compare two imaginary scenarios, one in which the price of a skin increases, before you can buy it, and another in which a skin is confiscated and a refund given for the original price while the new price also increases. Anyone could tell you the second scenario would have much worse reception in the community.

The overwhelming number of complaints centered around fairness, an issue that should never be taken lightly. The league tribunal system seems very similar to leaverbuster but is largely accepted by most players. The main difference I believe is the nature of automation, and the idea that false positives are more socially undesirable than false negatives. It has been pointed out that afk-ing affects nine other people and so constitutes the closest thing to a clear cut 'crime' we have in lol-land. But in embracing the model of crime and punishment, we also bring in other principles of justice such as intent, extenuating circumstance, and even the idea of burden of proof, since the former things are likely outside the ability of riot to observe. In the real world a justice system which neglects the other principles is called draconian, and other unpleasant things, as it should be. When we implement a similar system in the game it broadly offends the moral sense of the average player.

If riot wishes to defend the current practices, it should release leaverbuster numbers, but this still leaves a fundamental flaw. In my games it seems that the number of deliberate afks and network problems is comparable. Since riot does not have any true 'control' statistics, the self reported internet problems versus true internet issues are very difficult to discern. The paradox is this, given that internet and other bug sources is statistically uncorrelated with the buster policy, if the number of true leavers is low, then most of the players it targets are false positives, making it an unjust system. If the number of leavers is high, then the system is ineffective.

Finally the last problem I will mention, perception trumps statistics. A single negative experience can have more impact than a number of positive ones, depending on the expectations of the player. It is a fact of psychology that people are bad at judging statistics, low probability expectation values, and counter-factuals in general such as opportunity cost. Even seeing the statistics, a player will likely not "feel" even a 20% drop in leavers, if they do it will be vague and spread out, emotional background as it were. What affects people are memorable events, a leaver in a big game or promo series, or an unusual number of leavers in a row, or the effect of false leaverbuster targeting. Under the old system of tribunals players could vent but I imagine the number of complaints was too large. A reform of that system to improve the logistics would probably be better, but I don't have all the answers. In the old days the enmity rested squarely on the shoulders of the player that left, but now it will reside more on riot itself.

Dealing with leavers is only one part of the more complete problem of moderating the community. And that's a struggle not just here but in the world at large.

My one positive recommendation is that a vote feature be added to the client. This will allow riot to do polling of the player base in a way that will likely be more positive and constructive than the boards. A bar or icon that has an issue to vote on, and a button to vote. Change the issue every week or patch. It could be a goldmine of data if done right.

PS. plz fix this unspecified error I keep getting in 4.21 so I can continue to feed bot lane without getting leaverbusted! Heimerdinger

41 Comments

MPendragon5 votes

It's also wrong, because you can be harassed and trolled to the point where you are no longer interested in finishing the match that you are in. If your ally decides, hey "Joe Blow screwed me over in the last match, so i'm going to AFK in well all game long."

Well why the hell should anybody else have to endure a man down disadvantage and have to play through the game?

Or if your allies refuse to surrender, yet refuse to engage and refuse to defend. It's pretty obvious that they are griefing, and just walking around to avoid being caught by leaverbuster.

Colgate Gator1 votes

{quoted} It's also wrong, because you can be harassed and trolled to the point where you are no longer interested in finishing the match that you are in. If your ally decides, hey "Joe Blow screwed me over in the last match, so i'm going to AFK in well all game long."

Well why the hell should anybody else have to endure a man down disadvantage and have to play through the game?

Or if your allies refuse to surrender, yet refuse to engage and refuse to defend. It's pretty obvious that they are griefing, and just walking around to avoid being caught by leaverbuster.

Because slippery slope, your logic would eventually would go down to. "Bot gave them first blood and told me to shut up when I told them something, so I AFK."

The moment you AFk or even threaten with that god-awful "I'm done" mentality, you're part of the problem

Eleshakai5 votes

This is probably the most well written post on the subject. You have my thumbs up... but sadly, I think it's pointless to try to argue against it. Riot has decided that this is the direction they wish to go, and unlike most cases they seem completely unwilling to hear anything to the contrary.

But either way, I agree with virtually everything you said here, and I respect that you're still willing to try to fight for this. I gave up on that a week ago and just moved on, now I only browse the forums occasionally to pass the time when I'm bored and not feeling up to doing anything more involved...

Trinityunicorn1 votes

I think it's pointless to try to argue against it. Riot has decided that this is the direction they wish to go, and unlike most cases they seem completely unwilling to hear anything to the contrary.

In some cases it is pointless once someone has made up their mind about something to try to change the idea. I don't know if its unlike or like most cases where Riot is concerned. I seem to see more instances of this is the way it is rather than that its really open to discussion and change.

There is some wisdom in not being tossed to and fro by popular opinion, and in gathering enough information to make an informed choice. I have to wonder if that choice might not be concluded quicker with more dialogue between the rule creators and the rule followers, but that would require everyone looking out for ALL included.

There was a comment a while back made by a player who was evidently "in" on creating the summoners code that we all supposedly agree to, that it was a callaborative effort and held the principles of inclusion of all for a better gaming experience. I suppose I'm the odd person out as most people fall in love with the game, I fell in love with the ideas the company was trying to promote. They are ideas that if adhered to will make the experience MUCH BETTER, but that needs to be the norm. I was also in love with the idea that it all wasn't a game made and developed upon the concept of greed. The company had some values and held those higher than greed. Their intent is not to suck your pocketbook dry.

The fix isn't so easy, few would disagree with the concepts of the opening of the declaration of independence, its quite powerful...We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. [sic] Day to day life however shows you that people don't adhere to it and most have forgotten the idea that we have inherent intrinsic value.

I see "some" signs that that Riot does read even if they don't respond, the extent to me is unknown. So, I'm willing to keep throwing ideas out there for the time being.

That all being said, I think the leaverbuster fails because it has no discernment. ** I think that player reports should have more weight in the decision of whether "leaving" has violated the summoners code being a determining factor or at the very least a barometer of false or true reports before any action is taken in terms of punishment. ** They mess with the code way too much for it to not have hiccups that affect gameplay. And it is too often a factor in disconnects to have a system that is so harsh that it doesn't allow some leeway to those being punished.

Leaverbuster denotes a leave ---> CHECK for a majority of reports on leaving -----> IF Confirmed reports are present = action taken against leaving player IF there are not enough confirming reports, case dismissed.

Will people abuse it, perhaps, but it will likely be more accurate than what we currently have and more player involved.

Eleshakai3 votes

My preferred suggestion would be to allow for a 'pardon' vote. If anyone on the player's team - even one person - feels the person's leave was justified, the leave doesn't count against them. This way we have a way for players to be understanding, rather than just adding another layer to punishing them.

At the end of the game, in stead of the honour button(since you can't honour a leaver anyways - the system prevents that), a leaver will have a blue button that an ally can click on to 'pardon' the person's leave. This is their ALLY'S way of saying that they feel the person's leaving was justified or acceptable.

Not sure if even that'd be enough to make me trust this system, but it would at least be a step in the right direction.

Trinityunicorn2 votes

If anyone on the player's team - even one person - feels the person's leave was justified, the leave doesn't count against them.

I don't have a problem pardoning people, but I do have a problem if it only requires one person, the potential for abuse of that button is just too easy. Even if someone hits it by mistake it undoes what might need doing. At least two of the remaining 4 need to agree before the incident can be somewhat accurate I would think.

The reason I used the report button as confirmation was its already used and understood by the people using the system. If at least 1/2 of the remaining people don't care enough to report it then I don't see a reason to punish it.

Something that just flitted through my mind was that my idea might not work so well if people are easily influenced by the people that run around and say "report so and so".

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted} I don't have a problem pardoning people, but I do have a problem if it only requires one person, the potential for abuse of that button is just too easy. Even if someone hits it by mistake it undoes what might need doing. At least two of the remaining 4 need to agree before the incident can be somewhat accurate I would think.

The reason I used the report button as confirmation was its already used and understood by the people using the system. If at least 1/2 of the remaining people don't care enough to report it then I don't see a reason to punish it.

Something that just flitted through my mind was that my idea might not work so well if people are easily influenced by the people that run around and say "report so and so".

For me, 1 is enough. I don't consider someone 'not getting punished' to be abuse. And if even one person considers that person to have a justified enough reason to leave to go out of their way to push the pardon button(you know how often people honour right?), I think that's sufficient.

But I guess I just don't see leaving as being all that bad a thing... it doesn't really impact me much. A lost game won't hurt me in the long run, and if someone leaves I can just switch to practice mode and go and work on things like defensive warding, skillshots, dodging, csing, etc....

there's a lot you can do to improve your chances to win in future games even if you can't win this one, and it's only one loss. So what's the harm? The problem I have with leavers is that people who do it willfully are disrespecting their teammates... and that type of disrespect deserves to be punished.

CoCo BoEy3 votes

This will never be taken serious by riot , hundreds of posts have been made about this. Leave buster is to convenient for them. They would rather see people lose their account and spend more money on a new account.

FDru1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CoCo BoEy,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=K2oAoV6Z,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2014-12-14T09:10:40.276+0000) This will never be taken serious by riot , hundreds of posts have been made about this. Leave buster is to convenient for them. They would rather see people lose their account and spend more money on a new account.

It's going to cost them a lot more to deal with an ongoing support case than they would likely get from an account someone reopened, especially after being falsely banned.

Speaking of false bannings, have there been any? All I see is a whole lot of crying that people had to type "I AGREE" because they disconnected.

Jubbinaut1 votes

I've seen a couple people talking about being hit by the low-priority queues, but I haven't seen anything in those posts to concern me about errors or overtuning. At least, not yet. I'm still watching, though.

CoCo BoEy1 votes

This forum is full of posts complaining about error and flaws in the system... try looking..

Jubbinaut1 votes

Yes, I'm aware. I participated in more than a few of those threads (which I'm sure you know, since you took the time to flame me in more than one of them).

The majority of the posts I've seen relate to the "I agree" message, which is in no way a sanction. The first sanctions within the new system are the low-priority queues.

Those few that have actually related to sanctions (low-priority queues or bans) haven't shown me much to be concerned about yet. Which isn't - and wasn't - to say that something of the sort won't show up. Simply that I didn't see a reason to worry about it, and certainly not one to get all hyperbolic about it.

Please, there's absolutely no need for us to insult each other over this.

CoCo BoEy1 votes

Wow the stupidity is strong with this one. Let me break it down with flash cards so you can understand.

If you ban an account that has everything they wanted on it then they would have to rebuy everything on a new account = more money for riot.. How is that hard to understand.

Second not one smart person will take you serious because if you had a brain that was effective you would know that the report system is automated since tribunal is down. So you can literally get chat restricted or suspended and do nothing wrong.

God you're dumb...

blacknerdtaku1 votes

[{quoted}](name=CoCo BoEy,realm=NA,application-id=cIfEodbz,discussion-id=K2oAoV6Z,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2014-12-15T00:07:20.313+0000) Wow the stupidity is strong with this one. Let me break it down with flash cards so you can understand.

If you ban an account that has everything they wanted on it then they would have to rebuy everything on a new account = more money for riot.. How is that hard to understand.

Second not one smart person will take you serious because if you had a brain that was effective you would know that the report system is automated since tribunal is down. So you can literally get chat restricted or suspended and do nothing wrong.

God you're dumb...

The more it happens, the more of a bad taste it leaves in your mouth. do you see how many people genuinely hate this thing? so if you were to keep this syetem, what would happen? people would both leave and give this game negative reviews. = less money for RIOT!

if you seriously believe the way to make money is by shitting on the consumer so blatantly, then you've a lot to learn about the nature of economics, and consumer trust.

a very recent example is Xbox One, which got shit on by PS4... why? because Xbox betrayed consumer trust with ridiculous, limiting features. What is this leavebuster? a ridiculous, limiting, feature. what are players? pissed.

CoCo BoEy1 votes

League has the most toxic community of all games and probably has more negative reviews then any other game and guess what? They make more money each year.. almost a Billion dollars in 2013 so yes.. I just killed your entire thought with facts and logic. They prey on people who get addicted to games, all game companies do..

blacknerdtaku1 votes

" and probably has more negative reviews then any other game"

im sorry, but if you're going to try to shoot an argument down at the very least use a fact. not some hyperbolic BS you pulled out of your ass...

any other game? Sonic 06 Superman 64 Big Rigs: over the Road Racing ET (Atari) Aliens Colonial Marines both Zelda CD-i Games

among many others. It has a hater base consisting of mostly Dota Players and Moba haters, but everyone else either loves the game or doesn't care. so get that shit out of here.

CoCo BoEy1 votes

lol? Read the articles moron... You just made yourself look so freaking stupid it's unreal. Thanks for doing my job for me.

Baculus3 votes

Not everyone hates leaver buster; mostly just people with toasters, terrible connections, and who can't read what Riot posted on the problem (there are no false positives) If you got a leaver buster ban then you DC'd too many times, that's it. Actually for four years now people have been /begging/ for more penalties for AFKers, and we got it.

Just because a player thinks they're nice and helpful doesn't give them a right to keep playing with a terrible PC/connection, dcing, and making games unwinnable. It also is the exact same end result as rage-quits/AFKs.

So, yeah. Good.

Eleshakai2 votes

{quoted} Not everyone hates leaver buster; mostly just people with toasters, terrible connections, and who can't read what Riot posted on the problem (there are no false positives) If you got a leaver buster ban then you DC'd too many times, that's it. Actually for four years now people have been /begging/ for more penalties for AFKers, and we got it.

Just because a player thinks they're nice and helpful doesn't give them a right to keep playing with a terrible PC/connection, dcing, and making games unwinnable. It also is the exact same end result as rage-quits/AFKs.

So, yeah. Good.

And here we have the prime example of why this system exists... a person who thinks that other people don't deserve to play simply because their internet isn't 100% perfect... and who considers League of Legends to be the most important part of his life, so a person leaving a game is a personal affront to him...

A fine specimen of human decency we have here. This individual would rather force others to quit their favourite hobby than lose one or two games a year because of them... lovely.

Baculus1 votes

Scratch 'nice and helpful' for 'pathetic, insecure and self-absorbed'. No, you don't deserve to play if it ruins the game for nine other people. Riot decided over a year ago that was the case with flamers (despite a mute button existing), they decided one person doing what they wanted wasn't worth wasting nine times that person's fun time.

And I love, absolutely love, how you claim LoL is the most important part of my life when you've played far more games (hundreds more). You're the one freaking out over it; unlike me, who actually checks connection/stability first to avoid DCing/crashing. Maybe you should do the same?

Also... 1 or 2 games a year from leavers? More like dozens, at least one every 5-10 games there's a leaver and that's 10-20% of games ruined because of people like you that deem themselves worth ruining matches for everyone else.

Not that it matters; the system is in and is here to stay.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted}

Scratch 'nice and helpful' for 'pathetic, insecure and self-absorbed'. No, you don't deserve to play if it ruins the game for nine other people. Riot decided over a year ago that was the case with flamers (despite a mute button existing), they decided one person doing what they wanted wasn't worth wasting nine times that person's fun time.

And I love, absolutely love, how you claim LoL is the most important part of my life when you've played far more games (hundreds more). You're the one freaking out over it; unlike me, who actually checks connection/stability first to avoid DCing/crashing. Maybe you should do the same?

Also... 1 or 2 games a year from leavers? More like dozens, at least one every 5-10 games there's a leaver and that's 10-20% of games ruined because of people like you that deem themselves worth ruining matches for everyone else.

Not that it matters; the system is in and is here to stay.

I've never been punished or even warned by leaverbuster. One does not need to be wrongfully punished by something to recognize that it is morally wrong and stand up for those who are.

I, also, back when I still played, did not see a leaver more than once every few weeks at WORST. If you're getting leavers every 5-10 games, I'd wager you're the problem. How much are you harassing these people for them to not want to spend time in-game with you?

Akaterina1 votes

{quoted}

Not everyone hates leaver buster; mostly just people with toasters, terrible connections, and who can't read what Riot posted on the problem (there are no false positives) If you got a leaver buster ban then you DC'd too many times, that's it. Actually for four years now people have been /begging/ for more penalties for AFKers, and we got it.

Just because a player thinks they're nice and helpful doesn't give them a right to keep playing with a terrible PC/connection, dcing, and making games unwinnable. It also is the exact same end result as rage-quits/AFKs.

So, yeah. Good.

Yeah.... I got a warning after a bug splat, and I have never intentionally left a game. In fact I can only ever recall not being in 3 games from start to finish, 2 from power outages and 1 from my router dying mid game. This is 4-5 years of playing... but one crash since the new system and I am flagged for leaving. There may be a few more games that I never connected to or lagged out from due to server issues, but I am not counting those, or the issues from the DDOS attacks last year.

Baculus1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah.... I got a warning after a bug splat, and I have never intentionally left a game. In fact I can only ever recall not being in 3 games from start to finish, 2 from power outages and 1 from my router dying mid game. This is 4-5 years of playing... but one crash since the new system and I am flagged for leaving. There may be a few more games that I never connected to or lagged out from due to server issues, but I am not counting those, or the issues from the DDOS attacks last year.

Holy necro batman; that said, you didn't get a warning. At least in the context of "You're probably going to be banned if you don't stop everything' like with reports. I'll agree that it's Riot's fault for their terrible wording- that prompt will ALWAYS appear after the first time of an extended DC. It's to make it very clear what's expected but tends to just bother people, IMO at least.

You are at no risk of being leaverbusted unless it's a regular thing.

Jubbinaut1 votes

While I generally disagree with your conclusions, I have to admit that this is a well thought-out post, and very cleanly presented. I do want to clear up a couple misconceptions I noticed. If I've wrongly interpreted what you were trying to say with any of the below quotes, I do apologize, and encourage you to correct any misunderstandings that may show up between us.

{quoted} One thing to note is the psychology of positive vs. negative reinforcement. Incentives in games that are based on positive reinforcement do tend to work much better, and this is arguably part of what initially made lol succeed.

I don't disagree that positive reinforcement is important (and is, so far, less than optimally addressed by Riot), I don't think it's fair to say that it works better. Both systems have a place, and there are players who respond to each, for whom the other would be useless. I think that, in order to be successful, both positive and negative reinforcement must be addressed, with systems designed to ensure that the right people see the type of reinforcement appropriate to them. I'm actually very excited about this upcoming year, because they should be rolling out some of those positive reinforcement systems and techniques.

The overwhelming number of complaints centered around fairness, an issue that should never be taken lightly. The league tribunal system seems very similar to leaverbuster but is largely accepted by most players. The main difference I believe is the nature of automation, and the idea that false positives are more socially undesirable than false negatives.

It's my experience that the majority of players who speak about the Tribunal tend to speak negatively about it. I'm not sure how that relates to the actual numbers, but I do know that the Tribunal was pretty well accepted once it passed through the hiccup stage. Still, even at the beginning of this year, the overwhelming cry was "Tribunal is broken!" But that cry simply didn't represent the overall view of the system.

That may not be relevant in this case, as I've seen few people even attempting to take a moderate view of this new Leaverbuster, and fewer still attempting to approach it positively - and those that have tend to be doing so in a somewhat less than reasonable way. I'm not sure how meaningful any of this is, really, and I'd be very hesitant to draw any conclusions based on the thoroughly self-selected group discussing it.

It has been pointed out that afk-ing affects nine other people and so constitutes the closest thing to a clear cut 'crime' we have in lol-land.

I think considering it a "crime" is missing the point of it being clear-cut. The biggest difference between a leaver and a toxic player - recognizing that both create negative experiences and both inspire negativity in others - is that leaving is objective, while other forms of toxicity are usually subjective. Because of that subjective nature, it's important for verbal toxicity and trolling behavior to be examined by a subjective viewer - thus the human reviews of cases. However, because of the binary nature of leaves and afks, and thus the ability to judge it purely objectively, it's less important to have a human oversee each individual case.

That said, I'm sure they're keeping a close eye on the system to handle and adjust for hiccups. At least, I should hope they are. They usually do.

The paradox is this, given that internet and other bug sources is statistically uncorrelated with the buster policy, if the number of true leavers is low, then most of the players it targets are false positives, making it an unjust system.

The issue here is one of perception. You perceive that disconnects that aren't intentional must be false positives. Riot perceives that if a player is leaving too many games - regardless of the reason - they are leaving too many games. One thing to note is that this is not a new policy. The older Leaverbuster operated under the same assumption. In fact, I've yet to see anything to indicate that anything has changed with this new Leaverbuster besides the types of sanctions it issues and the threshold for issuing them (and that poorly handled "I agree" message).

And the thing is, if we can agree that leaving games is harmful to the other players in that game, I'm forced to agree with that policy. I'm less certain about this particular implementation of that policy, but it hasn't had a lot of time to make much of an impression on me yet, so while I view it with in a tentatively positive light - and therefore try to encourage a more moderate view in other players posting about it - I'm still withholding my own judgement of it.

Under the old system of tribunals players could vent but I imagine the number of complaints was too large. A reform of that system to improve the logistics would probably be better, but I don't have all the answers. In the old days the enmity rested squarely on the shoulders of the player that left, but now it will reside more on riot itself.

I mentioned this previously, but I want to make sure that I fully address it here. Leaverbuster was first implemented 4 years ago. Leaves and afks have not been handled by the Tribunal in any significant way since somewhere around then. And that older Leaverbuster system detected leavers in the same way, following the same policies that are in place now. It was not as strict (as that was the primary goal of this adjustment to the system), but it did exist.

My personal belief is that Riot was comfortable with the functions of the system, and how it handled their policies on leavers. I feel as though the new Leaverbuster was, perhaps, a necessary step in addressing the concerns of the playerbase, who indicated strongly that there were still too many people leaving games. It may be a bit of overcompensating (time will tell), but doing more was certainly a positive step.


Now, I'm going to get into some speculation. This is based on my understanding of the previous system, the changes that have been mentioned, and Riot's general goals. It's purely speculation and expectation. I simply don't have enough data (and I don't think any player could) to judge the accuracy of these statements yet.

I'm hopeful that the "I agree" message will be reworded, and perhaps adjusted to be a relatively simple click-through. I understand the reasoning behind implementing it, and I recognize that it isn't exactly a useful message to the current playerbase - who tend to understand that leaving is less than desirable. Because of that, I'm forced to assume that it will stick around in some way, but believe that it will be adjusted to be less hostile in its implications.

I believe that the number of players struck with any actual sanction will be lower than many people are expecting, particularly relating to those "one-and-done" cases Lyte mentioned were a possibility. I have a personal suspicion that he only mentioned it because there were players whose status with the old Leaverbuster was such that a single new leave would kick them over the line in the new Leaverbuster, but I have no real basis for that.

I believe that, in general, the amount of potential for leniency built into the system will be shown to be more than enough for the conscientious player, and that even careless players won't tend to see many issues with it.

I believe people will continue to misunderstand and misrepresent the system, but that over time, the general outcry will die down. Whether this occurs because more people come to understand the system (or simply begin to recognize that they aren't likely to be hit by it), or because it's tuned back, I wouldn't begin to guess - though I suspect a combination of factors.


I don't intend any of this to change your mind regarding how you feel about this system. That would be stupid of me, since I don't really know how to feel about it myself. But I do hope that I've given you some food for thought to help in your analysis.

Eleshakai2 votes

I won't quote the entire thing, because it's pointless....

but one thing I'd like to ask is this:

Someone playing REALLY poorly has the same impact on 9 other players as someone leaving. 4 people get a loss, 5 get a win. Yet, we only punish the people who do it intentionally, why is that? You clearly support punishing people for things, whether they control them or not, that impact other players... so are you then in favour of banning people who 'unintentionally feed'?

Just something to think about when you decide to support removing 'intent' from a disciplinary system... have a good day.

Jubbinaut1 votes

Every time I start thinking we're building some kind of mutual respect, I find myself shown to be wrong when you sit and patronize me. It's really rather insulting.

First of all, I stated more than once that I'm uncertain about the new Leaverbuster.

Secondly, I never once said I was in support of punishing people for things they can't control.

But let me address your metaphor, yes?

There's a whole system in place to handle someone playing poorly. Players who don't play well lose MMR, and (eventually) wind up matched with others who play at about the same level.

Following along the old "Prisoner's Island" idea that led to discussions of "Leaver's Island," we can call this "Unskilled Island." It's the very basis of the ranking system, but it occurs in every queue.

In a sense, therefore, it can be stated that there is a punishment for playing poorly: being forced to play with other poor players.

Now, obviously, these players are incapable of controlling the level of their skill, so are you saying that they shouldn't have their MMR impugned by this?

But really, that's a poor argument, because who else could conceivably control the level of their skill? Riot certainly can't, and neither can I. By the same token, who else could conceivably control the status of their computer systems? Who else can control what ISP they use? Who else can control when they choose to play?

Again, this is not a new policy. It's been in place at least since Leaverbuster was first implemented four years ago. Did you have concerns about it then, as well? Because I haven't seen you address anything relating to the older version of Leaverbuster, which operated on the same principles despite being significantly more lenient.

Here, this time I'll offer you a nice tl;dr summary of my position:

While I support the policies that back the idea of Leaverbuster in both of its incarnations, I am - as of yet - uncertain about the tuning of this particular version.

Eleshakai1 votes

I wasn't aware that would come across as patronizing, so I'm sorry. My words are not necessarily coming as I intend, perhaps because I'm still sick, who knows?

And a leave counts as a loss, which lowers someone's MMR, which some could argue is a fitting punishment for ruining a game for people. The arguments could go in circles for days on whether leaving or sucking ruins a game more, I see forum posts calling for people who 'intentionally feed' to be banned all the time, when those people are clearly just having bad games... so clearly people feel that way.

As to the old leaverbuster... when you have a system that is incapable of accounting for intent, it HAS to be lenient enough to give people the benefit of the doubt. That's been my argument from the start. By ramping up the punishments and starting to punish people far more quickly(which they've acknowledged is the case, a few leaves will be enough to get you a low prio queue which Riot has said they're 'okay with')... you've removed that 'benefit of the doubt' without adding any logic to account for intent. Thus the system becomes both intolerant AND intolerable in my eyes. If they wanted to ramp up the speed of punishments, in my eyes the ONLY acceptable way to do it would be to have each case manually reviewed. Since they clearly don't want to spend the money on the manpower for that(understandable, the cost would be pretty intense), they shouldn't have made it punish more severely. I DID have concerns about the old leaverbuster, but it seemed lenient enough that it would not have any false positives, so I was able toa ccept it. Honestly, I have concerns about ANY automated punishment system.

Since they did, I lost most of the respect I had for this team... and lost all motivation to play their game. Sucks, 'cause I think the new ori skin is really cool, and if this hadn't happened I'd have almost certainly bought it.

Jubbinaut1 votes

I hadn't heard about more severe punishments. Did I miss that post somewhere? My understanding was the 7-day bans remained the most severe level of Leaverbuster sanction.

So, the question is, how much leniency is enough? And has the system passed that point?

In answer to the first, I don't think I can quantify it. I'm attempting to go by feel. Many players previously were hit by Leaverbuster specifically because of their own systems (rather than because of rage-quitting), but I felt those were justified, because they were due to things under the control of the player.

If we make a completely insane metaphor and compare intentional leaves to murder, we can compare those kinds of neglect cases to manslaughter.

In answer to the second, I don't know. As I said, I'm still uncertain about the tuning of the system. I haven't seen any cut-and-dried cases that indicate to me that it's hitting too hard, or too fast. My own experience with it has been stellar. The day after it was turned on I wound up leaving a game near the end because Windows decided that was a fantastic time to restart the system for updates. I didn't receive anything for it, not even the "I agree" message.

I really don't know why I get such flak for asking people to see how the system actually works before getting hyperbolic, or for attempting to address misconceptions relating to the system, even when I state - repeatedly - that I'm still on the fence about the system myself. I just don't see any benefit in flaming people about something that we still know very little about, and are being forced to judge based on a double-handful of fairly vague statements.


The idea of a manual review seems interesting. What would such a review be looking for?

Part of the rationale behind the "punish all leavers" is the inability to distinguish between reasons for leaving. To the server, they all look the same: like a lost connection. So I'm not really sure what a person could see in that same data.

Eleshakai1 votes

{quoted} I hadn't heard about more severe punishments. Did I miss that post somewhere? My understanding was the 7-day bans remained the most severe level of Leaverbuster sanction.

So, the question is, how much leniency is enough? And has the system passed that point?

In answer to the first, I don't think I can quantify it. I'm attempting to go by feel. Many players previously were hit by Leaverbuster specifically because of their own systems (rather than because of rage-quitting), but I felt those were justified, because they were due to things under the control of the player.

If we make a completely insane metaphor and compare intentional leaves to murder, we can compare those kinds of neglect cases to manslaughter.

In answer to the second, I don't know. As I said, I'm still uncertain about the tuning of the system. I haven't seen any cut-and-dried cases that indicate to me that it's hitting too hard, or too fast. My own experience with it has been stellar. The day after it was turned on I wound up leaving a game near the end because Windows decided that was a fantastic time to restart the system for updates. I didn't receive anything for it, not even the "I agree" message.

I really don't know why I get such flak for asking people to see how the system actually works before getting hyperbolic, or for attempting to address misconceptions relating to the system, even when I state - repeatedly - that I'm still on the fence about the system myself. I just don't see any benefit in flaming people about something that we still know very little about, and are being forced to judge based on a double-handful of fairly vague statements.


The idea of a manual review seems interesting. What would such a review be looking for?

Part of the rationale behind the "punish all leavers" is the inability to distinguish between reasons for leaving. To the server, they all look the same: like a lost connection. So I'm not really sure what a person could see in that same data.

A manual review would allow for af ew things. 1) People who leave but have good reasons for it could be pardoned. 2) It would allow for people to feel as though they have the opportunity to PROVE they weren't responsible. Ex. If I have my ISPs name and the outage info or an appt booked for x date, or a list of tracerts showing WHERE the issue actually happened and proving that I have little control over it, etc... with a manual review, there's a person there who could TAKE that info if it was submitted. With an automated system, they're stating they don't care about any of that.

But again, as I said in my last post replying to someone else... I think the big difference is that I don;'t think leaves matter all that much. I think anyone with a healthy mindset would not see a leave as being a big deal since it's just one loss, it doesn't really matter in the long run AND you can always use your time during that game to practice. The problem with intentional leaves is that it's disrespectful. I think people are trying to create an idyllic world that CANNOT exist and because of that they're trying to create these harsh automated punishment systems to try to remove everyone who isn't a part of that idyll. And it can't work. It's impossible for it to work, because what you're trying to create - a world where nobody ever leaves a game - is impossible.

Jubbinaut2 votes

I don't believe that's the goal. I believe that the goal is to encourage players to avoid leaving if they don't need to. To minimize leaves, rather than to remove leaving altogether. Admittedly, some of the parts to this approach do a really shit job of expressing that. Like, really really shit.

My concern with leaves is that I can't control it. It's a loss that I cannot do anything about. I can account for a poor player, by offering advice or adjusting my strategy to account for their play - not saying I'm good at it, but I at least feel like I have options. The same can even be said for a rager, or a troll, or a feeder. They may cost me the game, but at least I can feel like I have some agency in it.

There's nothing I can do about someone that leaves 5 minutes into the game. I have no agency, no control, and that's a really distressing feeling.

I don't want those players gone, though. I really don't. What I want is for them to fix their stuff, and play again when they know they've got the time/connection/whatever.


I... want to do some digging. I think that I remember a few cases with Old Leaverbuster where players sent tickets indicating major issues like that and had their sanction overturned (though Leaver level wasn't reset).

It would seem, though, that it's still a larger concern than the one. A common refrain in the old TBI was "I just got autobanned because X" ... where X was any of a dozen things a person couldn't expect to control. The response most regulars there gave was generally the same: "What about all the other leaves that led you to that point?"

I'm not yet sure whether that question has been invalidated. And maybe it has. If it has, that's definitely a cause for concern.

I do still think that, if a leave was genuinely out of your ability to control, it's worth sending a Support ticket with evidence of that.

YourMortgage1 votes

I would first like to thank everyone for the nice comments they have made. I have only started posting since I fell that I cannot play until my bug issue is fixed.

I really don't know much of the schedule of penalties of leaverbuster, having little prior experience. I like some of the ideas here, such as a pardon button. I think that might go far to improve things. Personally I think it is overkill to apply it to co-op mode, since I have never seen complaints about leavers in that mode, and I used to play a lot of bots back when I had a toaster in season 2.

What I tried to do in my earlier ramble was to understand why such negative press exists about the system. I think it is wrong for lol because the nature of the system will always make it unpopular. The reason being that I do not see it able to be both effective and fair at the same time, only one or the other. I think manual review, even if it does not affect the statistics significantly is an improvement.

Lol is a game that people play for fun. Leaverbuster is simply a game feature that seems very unpopular. I often argue in favor of automating things since removing human judgement often removes bias. If I worked at riot I might have even tried to code the buster myself once. However, like many well meaning attempts at social engineering, there will be flaws.

Maybe tuning will improve things, but most people come to form opinions without knowing the statistics. Even knowing statistics, the average person still falls back on anecdotal evidence more often than not, and especially in cases that affect them personally. Given these trends, I think significant changes would be needed in order to be 'felt' by players. You correctly point out the issues with leaverbuster are ones of perception, but ultimately so are the ones it is trying to solve, and most other things in lol. More transparency might help make it seem fairer, but at the moment it feels like the lack of transparency is being used to try to increase deterrence, again a trade off between fairness and effectiveness. Since people often disagree about where the trade off is worthwhile, leaverbuster will always make some people angry.

Of course you could say that about everything, so without comparing it to an alternative system, it isn't that useful. If I had to guess, I would say leaverbuster is moderately effective, but not enough to satisfy riot, hence the recent increase in severity/confrontation. I do think that they are significantly moving into the trade off zone though, perhaps without realizing the extent it.

The goal of a thread should always be more than just venting, maybe some new ideas will show up.

Jubbinaut1 votes

{quoted} If I had to guess, I would say leaverbuster is moderately effective, but not enough to satisfy riot, hence the recent increase in severity/confrontation. I do think that they are significantly moving into the trade off zone though, perhaps without realizing the extent it.

I will gladly grant that this may be the case. I believe, however, that once aware of it, Riot will make adjustments.

In its previous incarnation, Leaverbuster was very effective at finding players who left games. It had so much leniency, however, that it took a ridiculous amount of leaves to warrant even a warning.

Personally, I spent about 2 or 3 months playing games literally every day, lagging through all of them and disconnecting from at least a third of them, and never received a warning. Obviously, I'm not complaining about that, but in all honesty, I deserved to have received something for all the issues I caused others. I did eventually fix it, of course, by switching to a physical connection to my router, rather than wi-fi (and I felt like such an idiot when I realized that's what it was).

Long-term, I feel that this change (once they've got it tuned to where it needs to be) will be better for the health of the game than sticking with the older system would be. And I think, if they examine additional approaches to Leaving, like they're doing with toxicity, they'll be able to do even more.

Eleshakai2 votes

If that was the goal, their stance wouldn't be

Whether a player DCs or intentionally leaves, it's still a ruined experience for 4 to 9 other players in the game. Although it isn't the player's "fault" when they unintentionally DC, it's even more unfair to penalize up to 9 players per game while a player figures out their connection issues.

If you DC from the game because of League of Legends server stability, Leaverbuster won't affect you and won't count those games. If you DC from a game because of your ISP or hardware, please fix your connection first before playing more games.

A statement like that is pretty clear to me. There are a dozen others like it...

It really depends how often you leave. For example, leaving 10 games in a row will still flag your account even if you had a perfect history of no leaving. If you leave in just a few games, you might still get a light 5 minute low priority queue penalty (which is light, and something we're OK with).

"And something we're okay with"

You left a matchmade game with other people. If you're testing a recently purchased champion you should create a custom game with bots.

That one was in response to someone who experienced a BUG with a champ they just bought when they were excited to play it...

One-time rare emergencies or hardware/ISP issues will rarely result in a penalty

And they're okay with that, apparently. Kinda sickening to me personally...

I could keep going on... but the message to me is clear... it's unfortunate how clear it is to me. To me, it's obvious that they're pursuing that fiction, that idyllic world that can't be. And it's silly.

I understand you still have questions about it... but the simple fact that they see LoL as being so important to our lives that a person leaving ANY game - even a BOT GAME - is such a horrible act that it deserves to be given an ultimatum and marked for future punishment is something I just can't support them in. Add to that the fact that they feel any leave is equivalent to any other... which to me is absurd. It's just as ridiculous to me as saying 'having a bad game' is equivalent to 'intentionally feeding'.

But they don't care. They're doing it, and that's the end of it... so I don't know why I still come back and post... oh ya, I'm sick and have nothing better to do...bah.

Jubbinaut1 votes

To me, their stance, according to your quotes, summarizes as "We know it's not really your fault, but we need you to take responsibility for things you have control over, because it's really not fair that you're affecting so many other people."

I mean, really, the first quote you have there states clearly: "Please fix your connection".

This speaks well to me, perhaps because personal responsibility is a huge part of my life philosophy, and what they have said so far seems to be calling for just that.

Compare it to a similar real-life situation:

Your brakes go out. It's not your fault, you didn't immediately control it. But don't you think it's better to fix that before spending significant time driving around and putting others at risk of being affected by your issue?

Honestly, if the goal was to simply get rid of leavers, I think they'd be much stricter than they are being, even with this new system. And much more severe. The fact that they're making use of relatively mild punishments, and maintaining the escalating punishment system indicates that they're attempting to discourage leaving, rather than kick leavers out.

Perhaps I should have phrased it in that direction earlier, as I think it's probably a more accurate view.


Add to that the fact that they feel any leave is equivalent to any other... which to me is absurd. It's just as ridiculous to me as saying 'having a bad game' is equivalent to 'intentionally feeding'.

I think this comparison isn't really fair. The effect of a leave is always the same: there's simply not a player there. The effects of a bad game are rarely as extreme as those of an intentional feeder, not least of which is because the player having a bad game is actually trying to contribute.

Keep in mind that Riot must judge such things by the effects they have on others. It's the same way they judge toxic behavior.


I want to be clear: I understand that you don't care about playing 4v5 games. I hope, however, that you understand that your opinion on that is the extreme minority opinion. The overwhelming feeling tends to be that leavers ruin games by making them unfair, unfun, and pointlessly unbalanced.

And I don't know how else to address that than to discourage leaving games. It's an unfortunate function of the genre that it requires all players on both teams to be active to be a full experience. There really isn't another genre of game that shares this kind of requirement... perhaps team-based RTS gaming, or high-end MMO raiding.

I suppose encouragement for staying in games might also help. Perhaps small boosts to something based on the number of games since the last disconnect.

I know I would like to see more preventative measures put into place, such as that "game cancelling" thing Lyte keeps talking about. I do have an issue with one aspect of that as he's described it, but the general idea seems solid.

But it can't be ignored. And when the vast majority of the playerbase is busy crying out that leavers are ruining the game, it's a pretty fair sign that what you're doing isn't enough.

Maybe this version is going too far. If that's the case, I'm sure we'll see them scale it back. They've done it before (the early tuning of the chat restriction system was pretty harsh), and I'm sure they'll do it again.

((Unrelated note: I'm pretty sure I made more edits to this post than most novels receive. Geez. So many screw-ups. Hopefully, I managed to keep the tone right. *crosses fingers*))

Eleshakai1 votes

I honestly think we've both been getting frustrated over something completely understandable...

Our values and ethics are different. That's not to say either is better than the other, they just differ on a fundamental level, and it's not something either of us can convince the other of.

I think it could be ignored. People will ALWAYS complain about leavers, feeders, etc.

Even if it only happened once a year the forums would STILL be full of people whining about them. Why? Because that's what people do when they're happy. They find something minor and complain about it. It doesn't matter how inconsequential it is, if it cost them a tiny bit of frustration and it's the only thing they can complain about, then that's what they'll complain about.

Honestly, the fact that people are complaining about leavers is actually a pretty good sign for the game. It means there's nothing actually IMPORTANT for them to complain about right now. You'll notice the second anything big comes up people stop complaining about the little things like leavers... why? Because leavers are the 'fallback complaint' - something to whine about when nothing is ACTUALLY bothering them.

Jubbinaut1 votes

I just had a thought. A few days back, I was discussing that stupid "i agree" message with a guy who claimed he hadn't left the game, but a quick examination of the state of the game strongly indicated that he had idled for a very significant amount of time, which explained why LB picked him up.

Detecting afk/leaves is really easy. The system even notices behavior intended to avoid it (moving around in base, dance parties, and the like). Determining the fact of someone leaving is pretty easy. Determining the circumstances is more difficult using those methods.

So it occurred to me: Why not let Tribunal handle them? Instead of automatically issuing a sanction, send a case through the Tribunal when it's back up, and let the community determine whether or not that player should be sanctioned.

Useful information for it: Total number of games in the case (to indicate the consistency of the behavior), chat logs (to indicate the player's stated situation, as well as the other players' views on it), timestamps for disconnected/reconnected messages (to help isolate instances of players having significant lag problems, as they tend to DC/RC multiple times), and maybe a time-lapse motion map (similar to the videos shown here, but only for that game, and with the player in question color-coded).

Among other things, I think this would allow for a more accurate view of the community's view on Leaves, and more targeted leniency than the current system allows.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

In my games it seems that the number of deliberate afks and network problems is comparable.

I'm not sure this matters.

If you have a pattern of afk, whether it's because you're a leaver or because you play on a shaky internet connection, the disruption effect you have on games is identical.

In the old days the enmity rested squarely on the shoulders of the player that left, but now it will reside more on riot itself.

Why do you say this?

Mindspeaker1 votes

I cant agree with you . Leave buster is a good step for league.

  1. the vast majority of people blaming riot for disconnects is most likely inaccurate ,

Just form my personal experience i very rarely ever have any problems with lag or disconnects ( have a high end system with an above average internet connection)

2 People also fake disconnects for immature reason like omg we are down some kills , omg we had quitter , omg why didn't surrender etc etc.

GundayMonday1 votes

I love leavebuster and have noticed a dramatic drop in AFKs and leavers in my games. The complaints are from the people banned by leavebuster. These are the same people that used to ruin games for 9 other people. The system is solid.

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