Trolls Vs. Toxic.

Diana R C Pierce·Dec 13, 2014·1 votes·1,396 views

What are your thoughts? Should trolls be punish more than toxic?

24 Comments

Leblancs BoobDec 14, 20143 votes

I consider them one and the same. Usually if someone is trolling theyre also toxic

KapparothDec 14, 20143 votes

Trolling is toxic behavior. Toxic behavior is when you behave in a way that ruins other people's experience. Trolling is intentionally ruining someone's experience, which is worse.

JubbinautDec 13, 20141 votes

I said both. Because trolls are toxic. Toxic behavior is toxic behavior, whether it's verbal or non-, and all forms of toxicity should be addressed.

1EightHunnaDec 13, 20141 votes

you're stupid. Trolls instigate people to be toxic. Pretty sure most of those in this game with chat restrictions got it for raging at trolls.

JubbinautDec 13, 20141 votes

Toxicity is not defined as "yelling at people". Toxicity is neither required nor defined as any form of verbal behavior.

Toxicity is defined as negative behavior that spreads to other people.

Trolls are often the instigators of toxicity, but they do so by acting toxic themselves. Trolls are toxic. It's their toxic behavior that provokes responding toxicity in others.

But toxicity is toxicity, and the actions of others is not - and should not be - a carte blanche excuse to engage in negative behavior without consequences.

BigNasty3000Dec 14, 20141 votes

The "punish everyone" mentality never works. Someone can push your buttons the entire game, and if you respond at all you are punished too. This isn't how real life works, and it isn't how this game should work.

If someone is bullying you, you should never stand up for yourself, right? Is this the world you want to live in?

I think you secretly want to work for Riot, based on your lack of justification in your responses. All of your responses on this board only repeat Riot's rules, as if they're perfect. It isn't your job to be "that guy" to people who are looking to blow off some steam due to the frustrating nature of this game. Riot's rules have made the game more frustrating, and all you can do is repeat the rules. These same rules have created the crappy behavior we all experience in game.

Are you even a person?

JubbinautDec 14, 20142 votes

All I've done - twice - is state that making an artificial and arbitrary distinction between different forms of negative behavior, and then claiming they should be treated differently, is an inappropriate approach.

If you think, for some reason, that someone being a jackass by yelling at people for no discernible reason is somehow less bad than someone being a jackass by feeding incessantly, you're more than welcome to that opinion. But to me, they've both made my experience in that match unenjoyable. And they've both tanked my chances for a win while they were at it.

So frankly, I don't care why people are being jerks. What I care about is that they are being jerks, and that their jerk attitude is considered unacceptable.

Like I said, toxicity is toxicity. I don't care how someone is being toxic, only that they are. If you're yelling at me for a mis-play? You're being a jerk, and you shouldn't. If you're feeding because you're pissed off at your girlfriend? You're being a jerk, and you shouldn't. If you're yelling at the guy feeding because of his girlfriend? You're both being jerks, and you both shouldn't.

It's really not complicated. Being toxic is being toxic. That's all. It's so simple that it's tautological.

BigNasty3000Dec 14, 20141 votes

Nothing is as uncomplicated as you would make it seem. Ignoring nuance is not an appropriate means of conflict management.

Like I said, all your posts lack one thing, humanity.

Every single rage thread I see, you stick your nose in and denounce everyone. Such inhuman responses warrant the question of whether or not you are a human.

There is nothing tautological about this at all. You act as if this is as simple as 2+2, but it is clearly not. If it's so tautological, why would there be seminars talking about the toxicity of online games? Here's a universal truth for you: if you act like a jerk, people respond in kind. That's more tautological than anything you have ever posted.

JubbinautDec 14, 20141 votes

Tautology: "a statement that is true by necessity or by virtue of its logical form."

In general, this is used to refer to statements that are true because they state the same thing. "A = A" is a logically tautological statement. "Toxicity is toxicity" is, therefore, a logical tautology.

If you feel that I'm not enraged enough by things, perhaps it's less because I'm some kind of robot, and more because I see nothing to be so thoroughly enraged about. Or, perhaps, it's simply because I have better control over my emotions, and see no need to let them color the arguments I present.

Or maybe I just don't want to look like an asshole.

I'm not saying trolls shouldn't be punished. I'm not saying players who are verbally abusive shouldn't be punished. I'm saying that both groups are toxic. Sure there's a difference in the type of toxicity each displays, but that doesn't mean that one's toxic and one isn't.

Since both are toxic, and both make things worse for everyone else involved, I believe that both should be punished.

As for seminars about toxicity in online games (I assume you're talking about Lyte's talks?), they aren't specifically about verbal abuse. It's simply that to a layman, verbal abuse is a far more easily recognizable form of toxicity than the various kinds of griefing possible in this game. It's a matter of speaking to your audience.

BigNasty3000Dec 15, 20141 votes

You do look like an asshole. Pretending as if you have superior control over your emotions, then going out and saying "see how controlled I am" is being an asshole. Humans have emotions, that is tautological. Also, your use of unnecessary terms also makes you seem like an asshole. Certainly not someone I'd like to have a beer with.

I know what tautology means, it just doesn't apply to Riot's definition of the word toxic. Why don't you look up toxic? People are saying that defending yourself is not toxic, and the punishments should not be the same. Your misdirection into useless semantics only further proves what an asshole you are. Dismissal of anything you don't want to believe is an immature way to carry on a conversation, or debate. Word on the street is that this game's community is toxic, that is more tautological than Riot's definition of toxicity. Damn, I hate this word now. This community has successfully taken a word and twisted it to mean anything they want. It's disgusting.

This is the problem with the whole issue. You, and others, would like to ignore the true problem and paint everything with a broad brush. This doesn't work in real life, and it won't work in this video game's world either. Until you actually address the problem "seeds" that cause toxic behavior to spread, you will only make the problem worse.

You don't actually have to respond to ignore what someone is saying, just don't read it. A huge response filled with unnecessary terms, only to say what comes across as "I'm not listening, lalalala" makes you seem like the asshole you so wish you weren't. Good luck always looking down your nose at people, I'm sure it will get you far in life.

JubbinautDec 15, 20141 votes

{quoted} Humans have emotions, that is tautological. Also, your use of unnecessary terms also makes you seem like an asshole. Certainly not someone I'd like to have a beer with.

It's not unnecessary to use the correct term to define your argument. My argument is that all forms of negative behavior fall under the heading "toxic." Therefore, attempting to create a false distinction between trolls and "toxics" is useless.

We can subdivide the term "toxic" by type, easily. The purpose of my point was to encourage use of proper terminology, so that everyone can remain on the same page.

Want to talk about whether we should punish reactive toxicity as strictly as we do intentional feeding, blatant raging, or constant griefing? That is a discussion worth having.

Seriously, the entire crux of my argument is that of course we should punish trolls. Because they are toxic.

I know what tautology means, it just doesn't apply to Riot's definition of the word toxic. Why don't you look up toxic?

I was intending it to apply to my argument, rather than to any particular word. But, y'know, sure:

Toxic: "poisonous."

I think that's an apt definition of the kinds of negative behavior Riot includes under the heading.

People are saying that defending yourself is not toxic, and the punishments should not be the same.

That's's a discussion worth having, but it's not happening here. The OP's post, which I responded to, states: "What are your thoughts? Should trolls be punish more than toxic?" I indicated - repeatedly now - that it's a false distinction, because trolls are toxic, and thus, they should be punished.

Dismissal of anything you don't want to believe is an immature way to carry on a conversation, or debate.

I haven't dismissed anything. I mean, except for your entirely unnecessary ad hominem attacks. I've pretty much ignored those. I can address the fallacy, if you prefer?

Word on the street is that this game's community is toxic, that is more tautological than Riot's definition of toxicity.

This is where you're confused, I think. I'm not addressing Riot's definition of the toxicity. I'm addressing the application of the label, and indicating that trolls fall under that label. That's literally my entire argument, and thus it confuses me that you seem to have taken such offense to it. Makes me wonder why.

Damn, I hate this word now. This community has successfully taken a word and twisted it to mean anything they want. It's disgusting.

I agree. It was intended to refer to negative behaviors that affect others. And now, apparently, the playerbase has decided that it means one specific thing, which I assume to be retalitatory verbal abuse. Considering that I try to use the term in its intended meaning, it leaves me confused in discussions like this.

For example: If I'm saying that trolls should be punished because they are toxic, and you're arguing with me and telling me I'm stupid, the implication is that you feel we shouldn't punish trolls. But that's obviously stupid, so that can't be right. So why are you arguing with me?

This is the problem with the whole issue. You, and others, would like to ignore the true problem and paint everything with a broad brush. This doesn't work in real life, and it won't work in this video game's world either. Until you actually address the problem "seeds" that cause toxic behavior to spread, you will only make the problem worse.

So what is "the true problem," then? That sounds like a productive discussion, why don't we talk about that?

You don't actually have to respond to ignore what someone is saying, just don't read it. A huge response filled with unnecessary terms, only to say what comes across as "I'm not listening, lalalala" makes you seem like the asshole you so wish you weren't. Good luck always looking down your nose at people, I'm sure it will get you far in life.

I'll state again: I don't believe it's unnecessary to use the correct term for something. Whether that thing is a behavior, a disease, or an argument, using the correct terms allows us to communicate most effectively. So I don't believe that my terms were, by any definition, unnecessary.

If my intention was to ignore you, I wouldn't have bothered posting. These responses to you take time that I have much better uses for. Rather, my intention was to clarify my original points, as well as my use of terminology you seemed to have misunderstood. If that seemed patronizing, I apologize, but I feel it best to ensure everyone's on the same page regarding terminology to facilitate the best possible understanding regarding arguments that use that terminology. Perhaps that was, in this case, a poor approach to take.

BigNasty3000Dec 15, 20141 votes

You don't find the usage of a word that means poisonous being used to mean "anything that makes me feel bad" to be wrong?

Nothing has offended me. You just portray yourself as having monk-like control over your emotions, and you expect everyone else to as well. That isn't realistic. Especially when you factor in the age of a majority of players. You said you didn't want to come across as an asshole; I responded by telling you that you are coming across as an asshole. This isn't ad hominem, I was directly addressing your former post.

In the English language there are many words that have the same, or similar, meanings. Your choice of words says as much about you as what you are saying. I find that when people go out of their way to flex their vocabulary it is generally because their arguments are lacking elsewhere.

Though you hide your attacks in unnecessary semantics, I see them for what they are. I knew what tautological meant before this debate. Assuming people don't understand you (always thinking you're the smartest guy in the room) while using unnecessary terms to describe something that should be simple exposes your true aim. Do this outside of these forums and you will quickly find people distancing themselves from you. Because you're being an asshole.

JubbinautDec 15, 20141 votes

That's not the meaning I have used for the word toxicity. Nor, I believe, is it the meaning Riot intended. For one, it dismisses the inherently negative nature of toxic behavior. For another, it downplays the intention of that behavior. I tend to think of toxicity as meaning something more like this: "actions taken with the intent of causing some form of harm to another."

And to me, that certainly sounds poisonous to a community.

I wouldn't say that my control over my emotions is "monk-like." I'm actually fairly well-known for having a temper problem. In particular, I have problems controlling myself when I'm hungry and tired. However, I do know that using that kind of emotional approach to debates and discussions tends to do more harm than good. So I try to avoid them.

In mentioning your ad hominem attacks, I was referring to earlier posts, such as your first response to me: "Are you even a person?" Or the next one: "Such inhuman responses warrant the question of whether or not you are a human."

But you knew that, right?

In discussions or debates, I prefer to seek clarity. I actually spend a lot of time considering word choice and grammatical approach to ensure that what I'm saying is exactly what I mean, and not simply similar to what I mean. The hope, of course, is that if someone wishes to address my argument, there will be as little misunderstanding as possible. If it seems... mechanical... then so be it.

I haven't attacked anyone. I haven't even attacked your argument, so much as commented that it seems unrelated to mine. I apologize for my confusion regarding your knowledge of that particular word, but frankly, I'm still uncertain. Because your first usage of the term was in reference to a phrase that was not "true by virtue of its logical form." In fact, none of the things you've referred to as tautologies have actually been tautological.

Admittedly, that doesn't mean you don't know the meaning. That was a poor assumption, and while I'm sorry if it felt offensive or patronizing, I don't think it was wrong of me to try to ensure we were both on the same page about it.

I'm more than willing to discuss pretty much anything relating to Riot's behavioral system, including the usage and definition of the word toxicity. I'm not, however, willing to debate the way I present my arguments, particularly if you insist on these blatantly and unnecessarily aggressive diatribes.

In short: If you don't like my decision to approach a discussion or debate from a rational stance, or my assumption that others will do the same, well... I'll let Watsky tell you what I think about that.

BigNasty3000Jan 29, 20151 votes

LOL, you change the meaning of toxic to mean whatever it is you want it to, huh? Toxicity, as a word, is used metaphorically to compare negative behavior and its effects with a spreading poison.

The fact that you think you have "clarity" or you are being "entirely rational" is ridiculous. Nobody is 100% rational about any subject. You view the world through the lens of your life, there is no absolute rationality.

You are still trying to explain to me what tautological means. Why do you care if I know what it means? Are you my English prof? No, you aren't, so stay away from the vocabulary lessons and stick to your OPINIONS on league. You act like your opinion is always right. It isn't.

BTW, I could easily write circles around you and post something that looks like a thesis paper. I'm not, because this isn't the appropriate forum for that. I guess that is something you have yet to understand.

JubbinautJan 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

LOL, you change the meaning of toxic to mean whatever it is you want it to, huh? Toxicity, as a word, is used metaphorically to compare negative behavior and its effects with a spreading poison.

Toxicity, as a word, is used metaphorically to compare intentionally negative behavior and its effects with a spreading poison. Intention is, I think, key to what makes a behavior toxic. Riot seems to agree - after all, feeding isn't considered toxic, but intentional feeding is.

The fact that you think you have "clarity" or you are being "entirely rational" is ridiculous. Nobody is 100% rational about any subject. You view the world through the lens of your life, there is no absolute rationality.

I never said I was entirely rational. I said that I try to approach a discussion from the most rational position I can. Nor do I assume that I have clarity. I said that I seek it. Of course there is no absolute rationality, but that's no excuse to not try.

You are still trying to explain to me what tautological means. Why do you care if I know what it means? Are you my English prof? No, you aren't, so stay away from the vocabulary lessons and stick to your OPINIONS on league. You act like your opinion is always right. It isn't.

That wasn't a continuing definition so much as a comment regarding my confusion about your usage, and an apology for it. I didn't realize that apologies were such touchy subjects. My mistake. Won't happen again.

BTW, I could easily write circles around you and post something that looks like a thesis paper. I'm not, because this isn't the appropriate forum for that. I guess that is something you have yet to understand.

I disagree. I think that the forum isn't always the most important aspect that determines when or where a particular form of communication is appropriate. Rather, I think the discussion at hand is a far more significant factor. Of course, the decisions I may for myself regarding how I communicate are entirely subjective, and I would never judge anyone else's communication decisions based on that, barring two things:

If what they say is completely incomprehensible, for whatever reason.
If they're focusing on the people rather than on the subject.

Other than that? You do you. I'll do me. I see no reason why either of us should judge the other based on an entirely subjective opinion.

BigNasty3000Jan 29, 20151 votes

While you would like to paint everyone with the broad "toxic" brush, most of us see the difference between trolls and ragers. If you think they are the same, you are just ignoring a problem, sticking your head in the sand, to simplify a bigger one.

Here it is as simple as I can make it: trolls cause ragers. So if you want to approach the rage problem in LOL, you have to address trolls. Do you understand now?

I've played countless games where some jerk does a bunch of trollish stuff, someone rages, and everyone reports rager. Except for me. I report the troll. If he wasn't there, no rage would have been experienced. This type of passive-aggressive, laugh-behind-my computer-screen nonsense is the heart of toxicity in this game. Until we are willing to address the behavior that starts the disease spreading, we won't fix anything.

Your attitude only adds to the problem. Sweeping all problems under the same rug does not solve those problems, or even help solve them. It makes it harder for you (and Riot) to understand the nature of these issues, which in turn makes it impossible for you to effectively address these same issues. I guess you and Riot are content to keep yanking weeds only to have 2 more sprout up.

JubbinautJan 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

While you would like to paint everyone with the broad "toxic" brush, most of us see the difference between trolls and ragers. If you think they are the same, you are just ignoring a problem, sticking your head in the sand, to simplify a bigger one.

I never said they are the same, nor did I say they are equivalent. They are, however, similar, in that both are toxic.

Keep in mind that the original discussion was not "trolls vs ragers" but "trolls vs toxic."

Here it is as simple as I can make it: trolls cause ragers. So if you want to approach the rage problem in LOL, you have to address trolls. Do you understand now?

I always understood. I also always agreed with that. Which is why I find it gratifying that Riot works to ensure that their systems address trolling behaviors as well as raging behaviors. It's why I'm pleased that they're continuing to work on new systems to continue to address trolling behaviors.

I've played countless games where some jerk does a bunch of trollish stuff, someone rages, and everyone reports rager. Except for me. I report the troll. If he wasn't there, no rage would have been experienced. This type of passive-aggressive, laugh-behind-my computer-screen nonsense is the heart of toxicity in this game. Until we are willing to address the behavior that starts the disease spreading, we won't fix anything.

Good! Report the troll! Personally, I would, too. I'd also report the rager, because I strongly believe that the actions of one person should never excuse the actions of others.

Your attitude only adds to the problem. Sweeping all problems under the same rug does not solve those problems, or even help solve them. It makes it harder for you (and Riot) to understand the nature of these issues, which in turn makes it impossible for you to effectively address these same issues. I guess you and Riot are content to keep yanking weeds only to have 2 more sprout up.

You're misrepresenting my position. I've never once indicated that there's no difference between types of toxicity. I've only attempted to indicate that trolling behavior is a form of toxic behavior.

And different forms of toxic behavior are handled differently. Most purely verbal forms of toxicity are handled by a chat-detection algorithm that issues chat restrictions. Non-verbal forms of toxicity (aka, trolling behaviors) are currently handled by manual reviews. And they're developing a system specifically to detect and address intentional feeding.

Diana R C PierceDec 14, 20141 votes

{quoted} I said both. Because trolls are toxic. Toxic behavior is toxic behavior, whether it's verbal or non-, and all forms of toxicity should be addressed.

I would rather have a toxic person on my team, rather than a troll. A troll causes you to lose, someone whose being toxic can honestly carry, you just gotta do it their way.

JubbinautDec 14, 20141 votes

A troll is a player engaging in non-verbal toxic behavior. Therefore, a troll is a toxic player.

And I don't disagree with your point. Ragers aren't necessarily as "game ruining" as trolls, at least to me. But that doesn't mean that one's toxic and one isn't.

Diana R C PierceDec 13, 20141 votes

Honestly, I am never trolling, but I do rage, because people know how to really get under your skin, I invest alot of time into this game, and it pisses me off when someone trolls for no reason.. Like its ignorant.

Diana R C PierceDec 13, 20141 votes

NA servers more than likely has less trolls than any other server though, like Korea that shits hardcore over there, they troll like 30% of their champion selects.

Diana R C PierceDec 14, 20141 votes

Not every troll is Toxic, and not even toxic player a troll? If you go 18/2/13 in a game, and call your team retarded and call them stupid and stuff, you aren't a troll, your being toxic. If you are just running into their team, and dying non stop, laughing about it, or have any intentions on winning the game, then you are trolling...

XemeronJan 29, 20151 votes

Trolls dont get punished at all. You can troll all time trying to make people angry and once you got someone angry you can grin and go "enjoy ranked ban and chat restriction bro!"

JubbinautJan 29, 20151 votes

Really? Because I've seen trolls get banned. I've seen them banned for feeding, for spamming pings, for spamming emotes, for calling team positions in /all chat, and for abusing things like Trundle's pillar and Anivia's wall to screw over their teammates.

More, I've seen Rioters speak on it and uphold the bans. I've seen Rioters speak on it and escalate the bans.

That certainly sounds like trolls getting punished to me.