Skip to content

How powerful is karthus lore wise?

DrDiamonddoom··10 votes·11,582 views

KarthusKarthus is a incredibly powerful spirit that heralds oblivion and will do whatever it takes to destroy all mortality. When he "frees" mortals from the life he turns them into his servants for all time (this is shown in his lore where it says they become his legion). But we still dont know how powerful the shadow isles are and how powerful Karthus and the others are. I'm pretty sure that Karthus is around the same power level as Kindred as in game he says "its power grows with time" and "in the end only the dead shall remain". I think that "it" is Kindred which is where i get the theory that Kindred and Karthus are the same power level and the "in the end only the dead shall remain" i think that is kinda refering to karthus being completly immortal?????. also i think personally Karthus is more powerful than Mordekaiser because Mordekaiser needs all his bones to be together and his liches to ressurect him every time he dies and Karthus is fully immortal. So how powerful is he? how powerful will he be? i'll leave it up to YOU to decide ;). (ps: i think everyones opinions are valid and if you think karthus is super strong or super weak it doesn't matter i just want your opinion)

54 Comments

Pale Mask7 votes

I believe he's an archmage with power near Xerath and Ryze's level. He's probably Lissandra, LeBlanc and Syndra's equal, since his necromantic magic is incredibly strong.

His biggest weaknesses are his (possible) lack of skill and undead state. He could be anywhere from 25-1000+ years old, depending on how long Noxus has existed and had slums and a cult of Kindred, which means he can lack the experience and wisdom of the other contenders when it comes to using his magic. Since the undead can be hurt with certain weapons, he'd be susceptible to them, as well.

RyzeTheSmurfMage3 votes

How is LeBlanc Syndra and Lissandra lvl tho? We haven't seen her do anything besides manipulating.

Pale Mask9 votes

She's definitively on their level as a mage (even if we don't see her fight), and (imo) beyond their levels as a manipulator (Lissandra and Xerath come close). She's the strongest illusionist we've seen.

It's implied that she was active before Mordekaiser's reign, she was part of his court before betraying him, rallied barbarians to usurp him, took over his fortress and all the dark secrets it contained, manipulated Noxus since its inception, masquerades as multiple people simultaneously in several nations, and is the only person seemingly omniscient Swain considers his equal.

Not to mention that she's the potentially immortal leader of the Black Rose, (probably) one of the leaders of the Trifarix, and served by Vlad and Elise, who are themselves powerful inhuman mages. No one is even sure if "Emilia", "Evaine" or "LeBlanc" have anything to do with her real identity. She's got more feats than Karthus and Syndra, for sure.

The Iceborn3 votes

{quoted}

She's definitively on their level as a mage (even if we don't see her fight), and (imo) beyond their levels as a manipulator (Lissandra and Xerath come close). She's the strongest illusionist we've seen.

It's implied that she was active before Mordekaiser's reign, she was part of his court before betraying him, rallied barbarians to usurp him, took over his fortress and all the dark secrets it contained, manipulated Noxus since its inception, masquerades as multiple people simultaneously in several nations, and is the only person seemingly omniscient Swain considers his equal.

Not to mention that she's the potentially immortal leader of the Black Rose, (probably) one of the leaders of the Trifarix, and served by Vlad and Elise, who are themselves powerful inhuman mages. No one is even sure if "Emilia", "Evaine" or "LeBlanc" have anything to do with her real identity. She's got more feats than Karthus and Syndra, for sure.

I strongly agree with you... Karthus is , to me, a truly terrifying undead spirit.. He is most certainly an equal to Syndra,Leblanc, Lissandra aswell as Ryze... I dont really think that he needs experience in conventional magic such as Ryze has because he was undead for a long time and he learned his magic and powers as a spirit! Its incredible that he can gift death so quickly and enslave his victims... From the map we can see that Karthus commands an undead army and not just a human army, he does have beasts in his posession.. Yes he has weaknesses such as light I believe and certain artifacts that kill spirits but still everyone has weaknesses, including one of Ryzes and Syndras biggest weaknesses, a human body.. They may be extreme mages but even casting magic drains them.. Karthus is a big threat in my opinion and he has truly mastered his spirit form..

Thefrostyviking1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Iceborn,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=n0H9Zwb7,comment-id=0001000000000001,timestamp=2018-09-15T13:06:14.493+0000)

I strongly agree with you... Karthus is , to me, a truly terrifying undead spirit.. He is most certainly an equal to Syndra,Leblanc, Lissandra aswell as Ryze... I dont really think that he needs experience in conventional magic such as Ryze has because he was undead for a long time and he learned his magic and powers as a spirit! Its incredible that he can gift death so quickly and enslave his victims... From the map we can see that Karthus commands an undead army and not just a human army, he does have beasts in his posession.. Yes he has weaknesses such as light I believe and certain artifacts that kill spirits but still everyone has weaknesses, including one of Ryzes and Syndras biggest weaknesses, a human body.. They may be extreme mages but even casting magic drains them.. Karthus is a big threat in my opinion and he has truly mastered his spirit form..

Karthus has a rather major weakness himself though.

He and all his friends live on a set of islands.

Both Syndra and Lissandra have been confirmed to possess power capable of wrecking areas of that size with magic if they feel like it.

Heck Syndra could possibly just float her castle up really damn high then drop it down as quickly as possible like a missile, i´d like to see if anything except the truly spiritual entities of the shadow isles survives xD

Lissandra meanwhile is actually terrifyingly powerful.....but she seems based more on preparation and rituals to make the real magic happen.

When she had sufficient materials on hand she managed to trap a dozen watchers in ice.........any one of those could put Aurelion on guard and she froze a entire bunch of them in a single hit albeit at a great cost........however the seal has been lasting for thousands of years as well.

But i doubt the isles are anywhere near as difficult to deal with.

However we have on idea what kind of power lvl or what LB actually is if she is even human at all so i cant really say anything about her.

Karthus? To me he seems to be the type that is exceptionally powerful against the weak while being weak against those who are equal or stronger than him. ........which isnt much of a problem overall because we dont actually know that many stronger than him....like less than 10 and all of them seem to be busy with their own stuff.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

waaaait a minute.... are you implying LeBlanc is as powerfull as Ryze magic-wise? Cause she hasn't shown anything to put her to that lvl and Lissandra's too (power-wise, smart-wise she is one of the top tier manipulators). Ah and Shadow Isles creatures have a weakness against magic in general not just light one.

The Iceborn1 votes

{quoted}

waaaait a minute.... are you implying LeBlanc is as powerfull as Ryze magic-wise? Cause she hasn't shown anything to put her to that lvl and Lissandra's too (power-wise, smart-wise she is one of the top tier manipulators). Ah and Shadow Isles creatures have a weakness against magic in general not just light one.

Not really, I do think that Ryze is stronger as he is truly smart and powerful bit Im just stating that we need to tale precaution when ot comes to such a high skilled manipulator and mage that survived this long :) We really never know what these kind of mages have up their sleave next :) For Karthus Im saying that the undesd and spirits are also something to be very aware and cautious of as nobody likes to fu*k with spirits..

DonatellaVersace4 votes

{quoted}

waaaait a minute.... are you implying LeBlanc is as powerfull as Ryze magic-wise? Cause she hasn't shown anything to put her to that lvl and Lissandra's too (power-wise, smart-wise she is one of the top tier manipulators). Ah and Shadow Isles creatures have a weakness against magic in general not just light one.

LeBlanc is most definitely among the most powerful mages in Runeterra whether or not we've seen it or not. While she isn't on the level Lissandra is, her feats in taming the Immortal Bastion, overthrowing the Mordekaiser and his entire court, banishing him to the Shadow Isles, manipulating the events of Runeterra for hundreds/thousands of years all place her high up with the rest of the great magic users. She may not have imprisoned the Watchers or ripped an entire fortress from the earth, but there is no denying that with everything she's done, she is definitely extremely powerful in her own right.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

She done all of that using her intelect and manipulation. She hasn't shown any magic power that puts her next to Ryze Syndra and Lissandra. When she does something similar to Ryze's , Syndra's and Lissandra's feats in power-level I'll consider her to be on their level.

Jerry SeinfeId4 votes

power comes in more forms than just raw strength/magic power. Considering how she's manipulating like crazy and has been around for probably as long as ryze, she's quite strong.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

But not combat-wise.

Jerry SeinfeId4 votes

why would she ever need to fight? Lorewise she's more of a manipulator than a fighter clearly. Or atleast as far as we've seen, we have in fact never seen her in combat. If her ingame moveset is anything to go off and we scale it up to a lore level, she's probably capable of using multiple chains, blinking and going naruto on your ass. Aside from that she has shown to be able to extend her life using magic, for (probably) as long as ryze has.

ryze doesn't exactly show combat magic on par with someone who can lift an entire fortress in the air after ripping it of the ground. And yet we see him as one of the strongest mages. He's been shown to still need help with plenty of foes. His powers seem to be focused more on precise control, sealing magic and teleportation.

However, there's only 2 (well technically 3 but singed uses alchemy/chemtech instead of magic and he's not as old) who have extended their actual mortal life as a human in the game. So out of all characters ryze is one she can be compared to.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

Ryze shows magic that can 1 shot a high-tier Voidborn (and even weak Voidborns are extremly durable, Ryze 1 shotted a powerfull one) , blocked Brand's attacks (who uses a World Rune directly) , made several big fissures into the True Ice that was keeping the Voidborn trapped with that explosion as well as making several big a** rocks fall from the top of the cave and made a fissure that allowed light to enter the cave. VoidboVoidborns AND True Ice are found very deep underground. As an APPRENTICE, Ryze beated the shit out of his master, an experienced archmage, stalemated Yago, who's powers were grown a lot by using a World Rune for such a long time (even tho he didn't use it in the fight, his powers grew because of the usage of the World Rune). The help he needed was for Nasus to be his guide, Sona for the guide too and heal just in case, MF for guidence too, the woman from the Shurima tribe cause he was considering taking her as an apprentice.

Robertsmash3 votes

Ryze shows magic that can 1 shot a high-tier Voidborn

No proof that it's high tier or particulary powerful. "A Voidborn like Rek'Sai or Vel'Koz" doesn't refer to its power, just its kind (aka it's not a Watcher). It had no chitin, so its durability is questionable. Honestly though, yes killing a Voidborn is impressive in any case. Ryze is somewhat powerful.

blocked Brand's attacks (who uses a World Rune directly)

Brand uses it badly or it tires him out quickly. It's not particulary impressive to block his attack. Ryze has seen what World Runes do. Brand doesn't do anything near that level.

several big fissures into the True Ice that was keeping the Voidborn trapped with that explosion as well as making several big a** rocks fall from the top of the cave and made a fissure that allowed light to enter the cave.

It already had those huge fissures beforehand. The stuff falling from the top would be impressive, but that was probably regular ice. The only True Ice looks to be the wall where the Voidborn was. I say this because none of that wall comes off at all when Ryze launches his burst of energy, despite it being so close to the focus of his attack. It looks like it got cracked, but the cracks were already there, they're just well illuminated during the explosion.

As an APPRENTICE, Ryze beated the shit out of his master, an experienced archmage

In a sudden, surprise attack. Not very impressive, since Tyrus has the durability of an ordinary human.

stalemated Yago, who's powers were grown a lot by using a World Rune for such a long time (even tho he didn't use it in the fight, his powers grew because of the usage of the World Rune)

We know Yago got a type of power "that no mortal being should possess," but we don't know how much. "A lot" is not stated in the story, nor is it a measurable quantity. Yago might have been garbage.

The help he needed was for Nasus to be his guide

Source? He even left Nasus behind to deal with a powerful enemy.

Sona for the guide too

Source? She wound up healing him and setting up an offensive play for him. Sona was tremendously useful and necessary.

MF for guidence too

He was using MF's ship for passage. An attack just coincidentally happened. Nothing is really shown of the fight so can't really talk about how it went down.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes
  1. The size of the Voidborn indicates that. Also the fact that the Voidborn could float and use magic, as well as corrupting Ryze (even tho he failed).
  2. Brand still has a World Rune in his body and that gives him his powers. Even tho he may not use it at its full potential, a World Rune is still a World Rune and it has incredible power anyways.
  3. Actually, if you watch the part of the explosion in slow motion, you'll see that Ryze caused more fissures to appear. And they were illuminated before too because of the magic's and Voidborn's light.
  4. He had a World Rune that he used for years. It buffed his magic even tho he wasn't using it directly in their fight.
  5. Ryze was going to fight it, he was preparing a spell, but Nasus told him he got it, then Ryze deactivated his spell and went in there.
  6. Already said that Sona was there for the heal too. The heal probably requires the target to not move and it's kinda hard not to do that when bandits are coming at you.
The Iceborn1 votes

{quoted}

  1. The size of the Voidborn indicates that. Also the fact that the Voidborn could float and use magic, as well as corrupting Ryze (even tho he failed).
  2. Brand still has a World Rune in his body and that gives him his powers. Even tho he may not use it at its full potential, a World Rune is still a World Rune and it has incredible power anyways.
  3. Actually, if you watch the part of the explosion in slow motion, you'll see that Ryze caused more fissures to appear. And they were illuminated before too because of the magic's and Voidborn's light.
  4. He had a World Rune that he used for years. It buffed his magic even tho he wasn't using it directly in their fight.
  5. Ryze was going to fight it, he was preparing a spell, but Nasus told him he got it, then Ryze deactivated his spell and went in there.
  6. Already said that Sona was there for the heal too. The heal probably requires the target to not move and it's kinda hard not to do that when bandits are coming at you.

I agree with the others... 1.The only high tier voidborn is VelKoz... Its a voidborn that can levitate,find and use voidportals and have disintegrating and overall great powers such as velkoz! That Voidborn was not as powerful as Velkoz and Velkoz is a high tier voidborn.. The Voidborn was a medium tier to me.. I dont think the Voidborn was sealed in True Ice as only Lissandra can seal and she was NOWHERE near that part of the freljord,my guess is the voidborn found the world rune and as it is not high tier, it couldnt find void portals and bring it to the void so it stayed there guarding it.. Through time the Voidborn froze in the harsh Ice all around, so I dont think that it was even levitating, I think it was sitting/frozen in Ice all around his body... 2.Here youre right, A world rune is a world rune,Brand might not know how to use it but the powers arent to be underestimated... 3.Im not sure about this, I saw a lot of cracks before but I also saw more cracks after it was illuminated.. Im leaning on to Ryze making the cracks... 5.I dont think that Ryze needs a guide as he didnt need one in the freljord.. Why shurima then? He probably called nasus for help.. 6.Sona was definitely there to help him and not guide him..That part is truly the perfect picture where we can see how vulnerable Ryze can be..Again absolutely extreme mage,incredible magical aswell as mental strength but he did get stabbed by a normal thief and it took a toll on him! He is only human and because of that sona was definitely there to help/heal him... Especially ther sona as a guide doesnt make sense because its impossible for ryze not to know about these tempels in Ionia..

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

There are several things that indicate me that was True Ice. First of all, if it was normal Ice, the Voidborn would have no problem getting past it. Remember, Lissandra is not the only one who can control True Ice, she's just the most powerfull one. Let me give you an example of tiers. Lissandra, Ryze and Xerath are all high-tiers among mages, but Xerath is by far the most powerfull. Vel'Koz is the most powerfull of the Voidborns, but that doesn't mean he is the only high-tier one. He is the top of the top. Nasus most probably was the only one who could open the library (Ascended magic is different a bit from Runeterran one, Xerath is a special case) or the library location was secret and only Nasus knew where it was.

The Iceborn1 votes

{quoted}

There are several things that indicate me that was True Ice. First of all, if it was normal Ice, the Voidborn would have no problem getting past it. Remember, Lissandra is not the only one who can control True Ice, she's just the most powerfull one. Let me give you an example of tiers. Lissandra, Ryze and Xerath are all high-tiers among mages, but Xerath is by far the most powerfull. Vel'Koz is the most powerfull of the Voidborns, but that doesn't mean he is the only high-tier one. He is the top of the top. Nasus most probably was the only one who could open the library (Ascended magic is different a bit from Runeterran one, Xerath is a special case) or the library location was secret and only Nasus knew where it was.

1.That is absolutely a valid point, you c ould think that it was True Ice and Odin said that we will get a longer form of media that will show us how the watchers were imprisoned and maybe show us if Lissandra imprisoned other voidborn? I still think that it was normal Ice and because its so cold there it would be quite sturdy, so the voidborn wouldnt mind being frozen there because he simply waited so long,guarding it, his surroundings naturally froze him.. And if you suggest that another Iceborn froze a high tier voidborn, thats a lil crazy because I dont think a regular Iceborn can freeze a high tier voidborn,see my point? And Lissandra didnt do it, do i strongly doubt its true ice, but again maybe it is! 2.You suggest that its a high tier voidborn but Velkoz is on top of the tier, which he should be,then again I doubt an Iceborn can freeze a high tier voidborn..Except the creature made sure its tentacles were out so it can protect the world rune.. Overall I still doubt its a high tier one but to your point, it can be and hopefully further stories clarify more about it .. 3.Now that you mention ascended magic youre probably right, Nasus was a guide..

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

If it was normal Ice then it would have been complety destroyed by the explosion, since it serioulsy damaged the whole cave, and high-tier Voidborn durability>>>>normal Ice durability, no matter how thick it is. Maybe Anivia is the one who froze it? Or an Ancient iceborn?

Robertsmash1 votes

The size of the Voidborn indicates that. Also the fact that the Voidborn could float and use magic, as well as corrupting Ryze (even tho he failed).

None of that indicates durability.

Brand still has a World Rune in his body and that gives him his powers. Even tho he may not use it at its full potential, a World Rune is still a World Rune and it has incredible power anyways.

Doesn't really matter if a baby has a nuclear rocket. He can't use it. Blocking Brand isn't impressive until we get another Brand feat that shows what he can actually do. For now all we have is he can hit a human (who lives) and he hits Ryze (who blocks). Nothing else to compare it to.

He had a World Rune that he used for years. It buffed his magic even tho he wasn't using it directly in their fight.

Still doesn't say how much... just that he used a forbidden power, not how powerful it actually was.

Ryze was going to fight it, he was preparing a spell, but Nasus told him he got it, then Ryze deactivated his spell and went in there.

Actually none of them speak or nod. Ryze was gonna back up Nasus but decided to go do the actual mission, so he left. He still needed Nasus.

Already said that Sona was there for the heal too. The heal probably requires the target to not move and it's kinda hard not to do that when bandits are coming at you.

The not moving thing is unsupported speculation and he still needed her there.

edit: He did create some cracks on the wall.

Robertsmash1 votes

If it was normal Ice then it would have been complety destroyed by the explosion, since it serioulsy damaged the whole cave,

You're right, he did create small cracks in an already cracked true ice wall (really the Voidborn's explosion did that) and brought down the ceiling, when it wasn't even his target. It pretty much did collapse.

high-tier Voidborn durability>>>>normal Ice durability, no matter how thick it is.

He wasn't aiming at the regular ice on the ceiling, so it didn't take the brunt of the attack. He hit the Voidborn and shockwaves are what took down the ceiling.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

That actually works for Ryze. He did that with indirect attacks not with the main attack.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

yeah i'm gonna need some evidence for that guide stuff ma guy. Seemed like sona saved his ass there. Selling off nasus as just a guide, yeah that's a yikes from me.

The voidborn, obviously this would be brought up. The main reason he could do that is probably because of how it attacked him. I already said he seems to have incredible control over magic. The voidborn used some for of magical tendril attack, tapping straight into ryze. Ryze simply had better control in the magic power struggle meaning he could redirect everything back to the voidborn. The way he refers to magic while teaching kegan seems to allude that would be possible.

yago for how powerfull he may have been was still a human, not using the rune. So in a normal lifespan one can achieve alot with a world rune, le blanc has had ages to become stronger and has knowledge of more ancient magic than most because of her age.

His master was a surprise attack. He unleashed everything and if that did not kill, he would've died there. Because the average mage doesn't have the most durable body, it REALLY killed him.

anyways, you take some offense to LB being put on the same level as ryze, i get that you main him but try to stay neutral. I never said he was weak, yet you immediatly jumped into describing all his "feats". He never beat Brand he just used rune prison on him mainly.

the fact that leblanc's lore goes as far back as ryze's alone should show she's one of the most powerful people in the lore. Even if her raw magic isn't as strong as ryze, her deceiving nature makes up for it. Combat relies on more than raw strength. Creativity can get you far with magical abilities.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

Incapacitation still counts as a win. Ryze trapped Brand and was gonna kill him (Brand's durability is human) but the Shuriman woman reached for the World Rune and interupted them.

Jerry SeinfeId3 votes

he could only barely contain him in there. Saying brand's durability is human is also a big assumption. He's the only one that's been shown to change incredibly upon getting his World rune, i think it's safe to say he's a bit more durable than the average mage, even before he became brand his body was probably 10 times as durable as ryze's master.

anyway none of that even matters. This was about LB and i used ryze as a comparison, as much as you may dislike it he's the easiest to compare to LB.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

And you think Ryze couldn't 1 shot him when he 1 shoted a powerfull Voidborn?

DonatellaVersace1 votes

{quoted}

She done all of that using her intelect and manipulation. She hasn't shown any magic power that puts her next to Ryze Syndra and Lissandra. When she does something similar to Ryze's , Syndra's and Lissandra's feats in power-level I'll consider her to be on their level.

All of her feats required her magic. LeBlanc could not have done all of those things without her magic. The way in which she uses her magic is what makes her strong, not her magic in its pure form.

Fondling Gems2 votes

I think Leblanc kinda falls onto one of two sides of a great divide between player's ideas of power.

In the sense of raw magical ability we don't know exactly where Leblanc lies, but considering she does play behind the scenes her raw magic may not actually be super powerful.

On the other hand she is without a doubt one of the most powerful people in all of Runeterra, because of how much she controls the world. Xerath may have the power to blow up an entire nation, but Leblanc has used her power to control the politics in almost every faction, and can send them all to war.

In that context Leblanc probably holds more power over the movements of the people in Runeterra than anyone else, short of an unbound Aurelion Sol.


That is why a number of players consider Leblanc to be one of the most powerful mages in Runeterra, because magic isn't just about how big of a crater you can make, it is about how you use your power. Leblanc's power simply isn't that combat oriented, but judging mages based on their ability to 1v1 each other is a huge mistake.

Think about it this way: The president is a lot weaker than a professional boxer, and when it comes to killing someone the boxer is a lot better at it. However which one can kill more people?

Now keep in mind Leblanc isn't so much a president as half of ever country's ruler's advisers. That is a scary amount of power over people, and not a single shred of that is tied to her magic, rather she simply uses her magic to be able to get into a position to use that power.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

We don't have any feats from most of these mages, particularly Karthus, to say he's on Xerath's level.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

{quoted}

How is LeBlanc Syndra and Lissandra lvl tho? We haven't seen her do anything besides manipulating.

Lissandra seems to be mainly ritual based for magic all things considered, when she has the stuff she needs she can pull some bullshit lvl magic like sealing up a dozen watchers in one go for thousands of years.

But she was able to beat Trundle so badly that he went on his knees begging for mercy without even trying.....so she has at least some direct combat power.

But honestly we never really saw her do anything significant by herself like say Syndra did when she decided that she wanted a floating castle.

That floating castle thing is actually insane, how much power would it take to rip a large portion of a island and a castle from bedrock and suspend it in the air and then actually move it around?

She might just levitate it straight up in the air then drop it like a missile if she felt like it and it would be a weapon on the level of a small nuke,,,.,,,,,, giant mass+velocity equals a rather powerful impact when it falls down unless someone else does something to stop it........if they can actually do anything about something like a small meteor falling on them, most cities and armies would probably be completely helpless before her if she has the fuel to do so as she pleases. ' Syndra is a floating Nuke meteorite launcher confirmed?

LB is weird, really weird, we dont have any straight feats of power from her but she has appeared in multiple locations at once if i recall right and she seems to be the most skillful illusionist we know off which is a pretty scary branch of magic all things considered.

Well i dare bet both LB and Lissandra are highly adept in conventional magic battles of elemental rock paper scissors as well as occult and weird things like " Is that flying pile goop real or not?"

Meanwhile Syndra has no skill at all in delicate manipulations, rituals and whatnot, she just wills something while adding mana to the image of what she wants to happen until it works.

All in all i´d say all of them are scary AF.

The Iceborn1 votes

{quoted}

Lissandra seems to be mainly ritual based for magic all things considered, when she has the stuff she needs she can pull some bullshit lvl magic like sealing up a dozen watchers in one go for thousands of years.

But she was able to beat Trundle so badly that he went on his knees begging for mercy without even trying.....so she has at least some direct combat power.

But honestly we never really saw her do anything significant by herself like say Syndra did when she decided that she wanted a floating castle.

That floating castle thing is actually insane, how much power would it take to rip a large portion of a island and a castle from bedrock and suspend it in the air and then actually move it around?

She might just levitate it straight up in the air then drop it like a missile if she felt like it and it would be a weapon on the level of a small nuke,,,.,,,,,, giant mass+velocity equals a rather powerful impact when it falls down unless someone else does something to stop it........if they can actually do anything about something like a small meteor falling on them, most cities and armies would probably be completely helpless before her if she has the fuel to do so as she pleases. ' Syndra is a floating Nuke meteorite launcher confirmed?

LB is weird, really weird, we dont have any straight feats of power from her but she has appeared in multiple locations at once if i recall right and she seems to be the most skillful illusionist we know off which is a pretty scary branch of magic all things considered.

Well i dare bet both LB and Lissandra are highly adept in conventional magic battles of elemental rock paper scissors as well as occult and weird things like " Is that flying pile goop real or not?"

Meanwhile Syndra has no skill at all in delicate manipulations, rituals and whatnot, she just wills something while adding mana to the image of what she wants to happen until it works.

All in all i´d say all of them are scary AF.

Very good points!

Stars Shaper1 votes

Xerath is the closest we can get to a cosmic being that isn't the aspect of twilight, I presume that even Leona and Diana, while wielding Targonian powers, can't stand a chance against him in a direct fight. Karthus is surely more powerful than Leona/Diana too but a league below Xerath.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

Tbh the Aspects seem weak as they are rn compared to Runeterra's most powerfull mages.

Stars Shaper1 votes

The thing is that Taric, Diana and Leona are all empowered humans, which is what limits them the most. Targonians on the other side have reached a really high status of existence by getting so close to cosmic powers which means that even if they are a mortal race at base, they can be considered demi-gods. We still don't even know if Targonians where humans in origin or not (and I can't wait for it to be explored).

The Iceborn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Stars Shaper,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=n0H9Zwb7,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-09-15T13:53:32.907+0000)

The thing is that Taric, Diana and Leona are all empowered humans, which is what limits them the most. Targonians on the other side have reached a really high status of existence by getting so close to cosmic powers which means that even if they are a mortal race at base, they can be considered demi-gods. We still don't even know if Targonians where humans in origin or not (and I can't wait for it to be explored).

Yes, being human is a major disadvantage and always will be

Fasmodey1 votes

I believe Leona and Diana are more powerful than Karthus.

Diana and Leona have great powers and would even say could be equal of Nasus in raw power but they don't have the durability he has. They are Aspects of Targon, I don't see Karthus being equal of chosen ones of an empire built in cosmos. Heck, Thresh is a powerful spirit of Shadow Isles but he was hurt a lot by Lucian's weapons. Now imagine power of the Sun and Moon against Karthus. Undead have clear weaknesses.

I mean, Diana burnt voidborns to ashes. That's something an Ascended can do. What is an undead?

Aspect themselves though are even greater than Ascended brothers and would say it is even possible for Xerath too. It is not known if it is only Aspect of Twilight that strong or others are close to him in power too.

Stars Shaper1 votes

What you said could be applied to the actual Ascpects imo and a bit less to their human chosen warriors as they could have some limitations that derive from their human nature (which is a point of debate for now as I don't recall any Rioter telling us that they can use the full power of the aspects nor that they can't). Zoe is a peculiar case per se.

The thing is that Xerath is really on the edge between an Ascended and a cosmic entity, I bet he is still limited by his psyche meaning that he still is focused on being an emeperor and a freed slave rather than coming to "peace" with the world and becoming even more powerful.

Edit: As for Lucian weapons, that's another big "?". We don't know what the heck they are, they just seem some natural form of Laser diode and the Light has always been a counter to undeads by nature. Thresh surely holds a high rank in the Shadow Isles but I guess that in terms of power Hecarim, Kalista and especially Karthus are more superior to him, Mordekaiser being on an entirely different league as it was stated that his ghost is not just your ordinary (yet powerful) undead.

Fasmodey1 votes

Karthus was the reason why I started playing league. As liches are my one of the most favourite fantasy creatures ever, I installed the game immediately when I heard this game has a lich character.

Even though I don't play him much now, he has a special place in my heart for that very specific reason and I really would want him to be a super powerful lich. I always wanted him to be the most powerful Shadow Isles being anyway. But current Karthus feels related to only soul and necromancy with a few pyschic skills. Liches in fantasy master a lot magic types, and are experienced in many spells. This archetype is used by Xerath now. I like mages that can use many types of magic at the same time a lot.

I believe independent Karthus (his old lore) represented the lich archetype better than current one. A lich ruled a region, a lich had an undead army of himself. Typical lich. Current Karthus is more like a zombie necromancer. That's why I find this version weaker.

Until he shows he is really really powerful, I won't believe he can defeat an Aspect, Diana or Leona. Both use cosmic power which is a thing I am pretty sure that hurts more than Lucian's weapons, no matter what they are made of.

Stars Shaper2 votes

Cosmic magic is indeed the most powerful one right now.

But I sincerally hope that this alone doesn't rule out the villains we have. I don't think it would be good to have any1 wielding cosmic magic on a superior level of any other kind of magic, it would make the entire Shadow Isle and Black Mist menace disappear as they would just need Leona or Diana to show up and clear the place.

Aurelion Sol being a thing is a huge risk in this scenario but the scale of his story arc, his nature and motivations make him a non-issue for the conflicts of Runeterra. But Diana, Taric and Leona are people and they might very well end up in facing things like the Harrowing. Taric is already powerful enough to have 2 armies think twice before battling and he even didn't break a sweat. Mordekaiser and Karthus are the peak of the undeads we have and they shouldn't be simply outclassed because "Muh cosmic magic", they MUST be a threat or otherwise other story arcs like Lucians will lose most of their weight.

RyzeTheSmurfMage5 votes

Not as powerfull as Kindred. Kindred is literally the incarnation of death and Riot confirmed it. Probably close to Ryze's lvl imo but not as powerfull (magic can kill Shadow Isles creatures)

Vartius3 votes

"Its power grows with time... As does mine" is not a quote reffering to Kindred. He says that upon buying Rod Of Ages, an item of which power literally grows over time. There is no reason for that to be a quote about Kindred. Next - where did you get the idea that Karthus is completely immortal? Because he is not. He is just another Black Mist undead - an undead that can be banished by the likes of Lucian. In other words: he can be completely destroyed with magic or the right weapon. Mordekaiser's undeath is unique in that he can be raised no matter how many times his spirit is banished - That's why he needs the liches and the bones. It's a higher level and a different type of undeath. His lore also specifies he is far more powerful than any spirit from the isles - that includes Karthus. "in the end only dead shall remain" refers to the fact that one day the world will end. It may take milions of years, but the fact is: it will. And when it does, everyone will die. It isn't a power declaration, it's not him saying "you cannot stop me, one day I will turn everyone to my side". No. It's just him stating a fact.

Karthus is probably one of the most powerful Black Mist undeads in one aspect - he retained his own will and mind, unlike most, for example Hecarim, who became more twisted. But in terms of raw magical talent... Well, I don't think he is all that amazing. He didn't show any magical prowess before being turned, so his abilities come only from the black mist - as such the reach of his powers is limited and akin to others like him: mainly Thresh, who also didn't possess magical abilities before being turned. His determination may make him a better mage - him trying to further his powers is a possibility... but I still think he is of a similar power level to all of the more important shadow isles denizen.

Comparing him to Kindred isn't valid, I'm afraid. As some others have said, Kindred is the literal personification of Death in runeterra. We don't actually know their extent of power, but it's far up there, in the godlike realm.

Let's say it that way: Every strong undead got a power-up from the mist. Those that had magical or physical power beforehand are now the most powerful. This can be seen with Mordekaiser: he had both vast physical and magical abilities, so for him the power he gains from the mist is "considerable" (as stated in his lore). Considerable as in: power lesser than what he already had, but still worth taking note of. Karthus, who had no magical or physical prowess gets just that power up, and that's the extent his powers reach. The same with Thresh. Hecarim was already a knight and was at least somewhat strong, so he probably ranks higher than Karthus in terms of pure power, but his mind was weaker, as he became more twisted and cruel - mist could influence his mind.

Hope that explains the power-ranking somehow. We don't know how powerful are any of the Mist undead, so it's problematic to compare them to anyone from the outside. But just based on the current knowledge we have, the power ranking of Shadow Isles champions would present as such:

Mordekaiser (there is quite a bit of a power gap between him and the rest.)

Hecarim Karthus (if he continued to extend his power after turning - if he didn't he is where Thresh, etc. are) Thresh / Elise

Kalista, Yorick and Maokai are the hardest to place. Kalista is probably at the same level as Hecarim, maybe a bit higher. Maokai is a spirit of the forest - we cannot measure his strength in any way. Yorick is a human, but he has some power over souls there, so yeah. He is probably a bit lower than Karthus.

EDIT: Some points that have been brought up by Eternal791: Thresh and Kalista consume souls to gain more power, as such they probably rank higher than I thought. Karthus probably doesn't do that, since he wants souls free, as such he probably falls under Thresh and Kalista in the ranking. Hecarim is confirmed not to care about any of the souls, so he is weaker than Thresh and Kalista lore-wise.

Eternal7912 votes

Actually, Thresh's bio suggests he had some amount of magical aptitude before the Ruination, as he showed the ability to cast spells (or at least start to in his case). Additionally, he, like Kalista, gains power from the souls he harvests. This I believe would make him one of the most powerful Shadow Isle champions, though probably one that demonstration his power the least. So I would rank him and Kalista higher than Hecarim, but not quite as high as Morde.

Vartius1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, Thresh's bio suggests he had some amount of magical aptitude before the Ruination, as he showed the ability to cast spells (or at least start to in his case). Additionally, he, like Kalista, gains power from the souls he harvests. This I believe would make him one of the most powerful Shadow Isle champions, though probably one that demonstration his power the least. So I would rank him and Kalista higher than Hecarim, but not quite as high as Morde.

Problem with the whole soul-harvest thing is: we don't actually know whether he it's an ability unique to the two of them or something that all of these champions posses, but in different forms - Karthus controlling souls could be just a form of that.

I didn't actually read Thresh's lore in a while, so thanks for pointing out he actually had at least some magical power - it probably wasn't an extremely big deal, but still a bonus to his powers.

Eternal7913 votes

Kalista is confirmed to actually consume the souls as they become a part of her (hens why she refers to herself as We rather than I).

Thresh on the other hand gains power from them differently. He basically leeches off them while torturing them for knowledge (and entertainment). He continually consumes part of them, but not enough to completely merge them with him; which honestly could make him more powerful than Kalista depending on how many souls they each have.

Karthas we know doesn't consume the souls as he wants them to be free. So he probably doesn't really gain any power from them.

Morde enslaves them, so he probably leeches off them too like Thresh. Plus he was already a powerful necromancer/death knight long before the Ruination.

Hecarim's color story straight up says that he doesn't care about souls, so he's probably actually pretty weak for a shadow isle champ.

Yorick is a bit harder to tell as he's still alive.

Vartius1 votes

Fair enough. Seems I have underastimated Thresh then - probably due to him in-game not appearing extremely threatening as opposed to the others.

Eternal7911 votes

Idk, Thresh honestly scares me more than everyone else whether he's more powerful or not. Just because death by Thresh means an eternity of torment.

Vartius1 votes

Yes, that's true. Thresh is pretty disturbing when it comes to his methods. Though personally I find Karthus a bit creepier, because he believes that what he is doing is good for you. He is like a deranged priest and feels much more... Real. His appearance and powers are obviously not, but this way of thinking is something an actual occultist could have.

Robertsmash2 votes

It's also worth noting that Karthus and most other powerful spirits are still bound by the Black Mist or dependent on it for power. Mordekaiser is too strong to be bound by it and it's not the source of his power. He's way more powerful than Karthus.

Vartius2 votes

Very much so. For Mordekaiser the mist is a bonus. For Karthus it's the entirety of his power.

Also, you may want to remove the quote from your comment, as it is a bit too long and scrolling through that again will be a hassle for anyone reading the comments :P

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

It was said that Karthus is one of the only spirits that can leave the Shadow Isles.

More from Story, Art, & Sound