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Which Is The THEMATICALLY Less Succesfull Rework Riot Has Made? I have a postulant

Meelan·4/2/2016, 6:31:09 PM·37 votes·6,909 views

28th last month was the anniversary of Karma’s Rework and looking back I’d like to point out what I think hasn’t been addressed properly with her This thread isn’t about her gameplay, it’s about the** rework concept** and what hasn’t been delivered. I’ve had my fair share of time trying to be clear and bring a strong, interesting point to the table. Hope you find it disputable at the very least.

In general, her abilities feel uninspired. She’s supposed to bring a new kind of magic to the table channeling her inner flame. Every other champion has a distinct element or concept attached to them. Lux has** light;** Brand has fire; Ryze has runes. One of the most noticeable exceptions is Karma. It feels like she fights with colors, thus her power is not well defined.

  • ** Karma’s weapon**: Karma’s fans were removed because they didn’t fit her theme anymore. This is true, but that doesn’t mean Riot meant to leave her without a weapon. As you can see in her theme concept, her passive ability and Mantle of Decorum, she was meant to be the wielder of the Twin Dragons, one in each hand, overflowing with Spiritual Fire. This is still shown in her splash art . It makes her look more powerful, but in-game this idea is not very clear.

  • Shield: She has no animations for her E. She just stands still, no matter how you cast it. Riot reworked her and left her with no animation for her Shield. This is highly relevant because I found this video made by Skinspotlight in SurrenderAt20 when Riot added the fans on her PBE model. This video also shows her shield animation along with her dance, but it was never released live. I also don’t know if she could cast it while running as is the case with champions like Janna or Lulu because I couldn’t find more footage on that.

KARMA SHIELD ON PBE KARMA SHIELD ON LIVE

  • Mantra’d Q: The Twin Dragons channeling forward would have been better fitting, as it’d made more sense than just a kame-hame-ha.

  • No running animation on a champion that is constantly hasting itself: Not all champions have one but it seems logic to me that a champion that praises herself for catching people up would have an animation to go with. Champions like Heimerdinger, Tristana, and Sejuani (the next rework after Karma) have haste run-animations and they don’t use them all that often (besides Homeguard).

  • No special interactions: This is not because she doesn’t interact in her lore with anyone, as the leader of the Ionian people she would most likely have some words to say to a lot of champions. Syndra or Varus would’ve been interesting cases. (Trundle and Sejuani, a month away, do have special interactions).

  • Karma Dance: Most of you probably haven’t noticed her dance. It’s Shen’s dance, a Tai Chi form. But the thing that grinds my gears is that it’s just half of Shen’s dance. It does fit her concept but it’s boring and uninspired. She could’ve meditated sitting down or anything but this is what they went for. SHEN'S DANCE KARMA'S DANCE

Another thing that isn't as important for a whole point was her mantra which can also be considered unfinished. You see, her mantra is spoken in an ancient Ionian dialect, and it's supposed to be finished depending on which ability you choose to finish a sentence. But it was left unfinished. Mantras Video This didn't bring much to the flavor of the champ so I think they decided actively to leave it unfinished. Edit: They did respond to this 5 months ago. http://i.imgur.com/lMWT7yZ.png But Why?

There are three main reasons why Karma ended up in that unfinished state.

  • Karma was leaked: Her being leaked while being unfinished probably took it’s tool in what they ended up delivering. They had to rush and show her in PBE as the surprise was spoiled.

  • They did and didn’t think about the fans: When she was released on PBE, most fans were unhappy because she had lost her fans and her dress. Riot didn’t thought those elements were iconic to the champion and by that time they had another concept about “Full Relaunches”. With the problems they had with Karma they learned that they should survey a little more about what fans thought was core to a champion. Anyway, Riot did listen to the players and added her fans and a last minute dress in her old skins to please them. The downside of this is that they pretty much didn’t have time to add or change anything else thus she was and still is unfinished in some areas.

  • Freljord Event and Howling Abyss were to be released in a month: Freljord brought along full relaunch reworks. I think there probably were some ideas floating around and this was known by Riot but they had to give us something quick and take time for Sejuani and Trundle, so Karma ended up good, but not polished.

My hopes are that she will at the very least get some visual effects when the support balance comes, in a level similar to Caitlyn’s Q animation, especially her animation when running. To me, her unfinished design is what makes it hard to make or think cool concept skins for. I love her and think of her as a really fun champion.

But what do you guys think after reading this? I'm not saying reworks are bad or anything but we had to choose the worst full relaunch thematically wich would it be? Do you agree or disagree with my points?

Edit: As of now Karma has an animation on her passive and it's very pretty. A dragon (or flower on her OoLotus skin) spinning down her body. The problem is that due to the angle of the camera on the game it just not visible.

What would be better: Having the dragon spinning inside her Mantle of decorum, since it's always visible, and a sonorous cue. If it's visible it would add to the gameplay( maybe even going faster the closer to be off cooldown it is?idk) If you're playing as her you would wonder what is that thing that appears when she hits a champion, if you're the enemy you also would wonder and know that it isn't a good thing.) If you get hit by her you can understand better why she has the mantra more often, and seen more rewarding for hitting everything like "Hey I won because I made the dragon spin so often with basic attacks :D".

62 Comments

Ralanr4/2/2016, 8:07:00 PM14 votes

But what is Karma's thematic?

Her lore is old (based on the wiki) but it can still stand without the IoW. Based on this lore, she seems to be trying to find a balance between Ionia's path and present in the hopes for a better future. When her elders were killed by the Noxian general (rather foolishly) she utilized her magic to do harm for the first time in her life. She's not only saved her village, but altered something so sacred to do so. She put the lives of others over the steadfast traditions she had been taught since childhood.

I see her as this woman who sees that change is necessary, but she doesn't want to outright force people to change. She wants to guide them in the hopes that a third path will be found. ** Ionia cannot return to the way it was after the Noxian invasion, the scar has been left in the land and in the minds of the people**. Fear and ambition now overrun the land, which probably gives a large feeding ground for spirits. The government is now hiding secrets from its people and possibly from its other branches, best showcased by the fact that Jhin is under contract for some shadow branch.

Karma isn't trying to eradicate anyone. She wants to keep the place from falling apart. But again, she knows that some traditions do not work as time moves forward. Changes need to be made, but they need to be made carefully.

Karma: Never become a monster to defeat one.

Off Topic: This is honestly why I think Karma would make a great teacher for Syndra. Syndra's acts were brought about through adherence to a traditional teaching style that (while working) wasn't satisfying to the student. Rather than try different methods, her teacher threatened to seal her powers (whether he could or not is a different matter) away permanently. I feel Karma would be willing to try other techniques to help Syndra grow more powerful and more well learned in her power, which in the end could have made her into less of a threat that Ionia sees her as today (a threat they created I might add).

It's probably too late for that though (sad to say). But I'd love to see Karma try to reason with Syndra. Namely by first agreeing with her that, "Yeah, he was a poor teacher.".

SilverSquid4/2/2016, 11:49:49 PM5 votes

I think I've seen your post on reddit before, because those points seem familiar. However, they made me realize, how unfinished Karma is from a thematic perspective. I usually care much more about gameplay, so I mainly target her kit, which you describe this way

In general, her abilities feel uninspired. She’s supposed to bring a new kind of magic to the table channeling her inner flame. Every other champion has a distinct element or concept attached to them. Lux has light; Brand has fire; Ryze has runes. One of the most noticeable exceptions is Karma. It feels like she fights with colours, thus her power is not well defined.

In another thread I stumbled across not too long ago - done by the charming Yaime Loveheart - I learned a lot about how thematics hold kits together.

This is probably my main concern with Karma. She does NOT have a coherent theme and thus is all over the place. She is a poke mage, a support, a burst mage, she has CC, she has a selfheal, she has tank scalings and other parts that want to build her glass canon. She has no niche in the game and just colorful spells. Most of her spells are halfhearted copies of spells that already were in the game.... one of the reasons why current Karma is more healthy. Of course, if you just take some healthy spells, that already exist and slap them together, you can barely fail that. Generic damage spell, LeBlanc tether, a shield with the only other buff we didn't have yet, Heimer ult on a lower cooldown and.... ugh, we forgot the passive. Whatever, just give her a CDR skillcheck, it'll be fine. Bam, done!

However, I thought it wasn't even half bad until they removed the shieldbomb. Now even her RE is a generic copy of Talisman+Locket....

But what, if instead we could have a kit that made her twindragons of Ouroboros come to live? How cool would that be. Ouroboros, the dragon that bites its own tail, is the origin of the Yin-Yang symbol, the ∞ infinity sign and probably the ionian crest worn by Karma and Irelia. If Karma were to control them, both as awesome dragons and symbols of balance, infinity and enlightenment.... that would be so cool!

This is one of the reasons why I scrapped my last rework suggestion and tried implementing ideas from both you and Yaime. Still working on it, but in the meantime I would like to thank you for caring, for your input and your inspiration.

IxtaliKing4/2/2016, 7:25:30 PM4 votes

100% agree with your points, it was these very points that made me realise just how incomplete Karma is. That concept art is so spot on I really wish riot had gone with that. Karma is definitely the worst rework thematically, and I'd say it's one of the worst gameplay wise also; her kit has been super diluted since her rework.

LankPants4/3/2016, 11:20:21 AM4 votes

Shen is pretty high up there.

Nothing about Shen's design ever really screamed "giant spirit sword" at me.

Bobo1134/4/2016, 4:55:06 AM4 votes

I feel like Karma got screwed over pretty hard. I mean, I never had the pleasure of using her before the fabled rework, but I get the feeling that she's like, half of a complete champion. Yes, sure they had the wherewithal to rework her in the first place, but sometimes change is not necessarily for the good - even for a company like Riot. Many people make the assumption that Rito-senpai can do no wrong, but Karma definitely isn't the only champ whose identity, meta strengths, kit, and playstile were completely undermined.

You ask "Which Is The THEMATICALLY Less Successful Rework Riot Has Made?" I personally think Mordekaiser earns a spot up on that list somewhere. He has completely lost his identity and charm with his rework last August, and is now even LESS of a juggernaut - even after receiving a so-called "Juggernaut Rework." His abilities force him against bot lane opponents he was not designed to combat, his abilities lack the visceral impact they once did, and his visual theme is no longer unique. They knew they messed his heavy metal theme so badly, they renamed him the "Iron Revenant," Because Ekko was more of a Master of Metal at that point.

I feel ya though. Sometimes, less popular champs get screwed over by their reworks, and often, such mistakes are noticed, but rarely remedied - for the balance team is too busy making the more popular champs, well, more popular. Of the 40 champs you see in a given day, most of them were never blasted with updates that none of us asked for, and even if we did, they definitely weren't the changes we ultimately expected or wanted. It's not like the Karma rework facilitated healthy change, or made her compelling, unique, or fun. It was change for the sake of facilitating change.

Zorasama4/3/2016, 8:08:41 AM3 votes

Quinn like, they used to fight together but now Valor just fly around supporting her.

Jaghatai4/3/2016, 3:35:22 AM3 votes

Mordekaiser

drops mic

Evewynn4/3/2016, 9:19:15 AM2 votes

Riot also believes that the karma rework sucks and I hope they have something in the works for her.

I loved old karma and her balance thematic. Q heal stronger when allies were weaker, stronger as she got weaker, etc.

Vanjie4/3/2016, 5:37:27 AM2 votes

Agreed. Kit wise I find EVERYTHING in her kit a watered down version of something else. Karma doesn't have a unique kit that stands out . . . . she doesn't necessarily have a kit that fits her theme. The Karma rework was lazy, done poorly, and shows a lack of caring on Riot's behalf. They have let this go on for three years now. Despite concerns, helpful threads like this one, and many other suggestions, Riot Games has YET to do anything outside number buffs. Did you know that Karma has received the MOST changes to numbers out of any champion? This really shows us how much Riot is UNWILLING to let go of this boring kit.

Riot has even said . . . . they don't have money in the budget to work on a new VU for Karma or her abilities. It is somewhere on the forums. Karma is not going to get a VU to anything.

RocketRelm4/4/2016, 11:01:11 PM1 votes

Trundle

"Man, a portrait of my original self would be really appropriate here."