I wanted to see were everyone stood on old lore vs new lore and why. I personally liked the old lore better because it made the game have a point. You were a summoner settling the politcial and military disputes of runeterra. Now its just a bunch of champs fighting for no purpose.4
Ebonmaw Dragon9 votesThe old lore was a lie, You werent a summoner actually settling the politcial and military disputes of Runeterra... because if they were, it would mean that over 100 MILLION summoners would be doing that, at the same time, controlling champions only. Do you really think that Runeterra has 10 Million of politcial and military disputes in a MONTH? The ammounts of magic that they would waste in doing that? It makes no sense at all.
The matches that you played in the old lore had nothing to do with the lore, those matches werent canon, at all. The only time were the game ACTUALLY did something, was during the Ionia VS Noxus match, nothing else... and if i remember correclty, in that match no player was controlling the minions and monsters, a thing that the summoners should do in the game were actually canon.
Kyrrion5 votesTo be fair, you run into this issue with any multiplayer game. I mean, imagine how many times a single quest is completed in an MMORPG. No, canonically there weren't really 528,659,139 wolves that were killed since they were all threatening basic town #1 - but canonically there was a wolf problem. Same thing with League matches - there weren't 100 million a month, but there were (supposedly) matches that were held that did settle particular disputes. Like with the mmo quest, the details and specifics can vary largely from actual gameplay.
Honestly, applying such a literal, technical sense to a widespread multiplayer game like this just seems silly to me.
Also, a side note, I think it was apprentice summoners that worked the minions. That would make for a rather lame intro to the game, no? ~.^
My only problem with the lore right now is that there's nothing much about the world itself. It feels like a series of standalone stories with a few crossover sections sprinkled in. This has always been an issue, but at least the old Institute of War and summoners could provide some sort of agency over it. As of this moment, what would happen if a war broke out between Demacia and Noxus? Whatever the writers would feel like, and then the details would fade from memory and be irrelevant the next month.
Sure, characters may grow and evolve occasionally, but there's not much that actually changes about the world itself. Few events really matter in this universe so far.
Acolyte of Steel4 votesIt's clear to see how drastically Riot has changed their direction from Old Lore, and to me, new lore holds no narrative purpose. What is the point of this tale you are sharing with millions of people? What morals are you providing? Why are you taking the time out to ass-out a story - what goal do you want to leave behind as a writer with this as your narrative work?
I'm working on posting a thread outlining (contasts between VOs and etc.) how flat characters have become since immediately after the retcon. Riot had said they wanted to release new champions the Institute of War didn't allow them to release, but since Azir's release, nigh all can fit into the same cookie cutter personality. It seems like they decided to for-go their integrity just to make beat-'em-up characters. They even reworked Poppy and Galio to fit their cookie-cutter, and have managed to make Lux arrogant and underhanded!
Look at this contrast in character traits: **Lux prior to VO: ** "Light mage?' I'm just an ordinary mage..." "Stay positive." "Tactical decision, Summoner!"
Lux VO expansion: "I’m a crown guard but you wear the crown; you’re a Lightshield but I wield the light!— b-b-ut I mean metaphorically, your highness!" "Hey! Who’re you calling a lady?" "You don’t like ME? Well I’d rather talk to a statue!"
Arrogance is really easy to write. It's very convenient to make TF and Graves friends again. It's very easy to turn Ryze, a mage who surrendered everything to mana so he'd never have to "control" the breath of the world again, into a stereotype crying "muh sensei, muh world runes." It's very easy to give up a magical-world's equivalent to the United Nations and call it "restrictive," because moral points take bravery and finesse to address well. Then again, it's so easy to call any overarching narrative "restrictive." Riot turned their back on any narrative integrity they had remaining so they could release more kits and visual designs. Fine - excellent artists work faster than excellent writers. But remember...
Not all change is good change.
Edit: Just because the lore isn't right in front of your face, spelled out in pretty dialogue, doesn't mean it's not there. Old Lore didn't only justify the gameplay, it provided a world for you too.
Ebonmaw Dragon3 votes[{quoted}](name=Summoner Ezraqel,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AZsqNEoW,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-03-10T19:48:03.533+0000)
Not all change is good change.
LIES
Acolyte of Steel1 votes[{quoted}](name=Ebonmaw Dragon,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AZsqNEoW,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-03-10T20:12:44.825+0000)
"If I eat you, will I learn how to die?" : ^)
midnight oil243 votesJust running through a few of your points here:
who needs a moral? Morals tend to drag down stories. Take a look at SAO the crap original series vs. its fantastic abridged series. The original was all about how the virtual world is barely different than the real one, and it was an overly edgy piece of crap anime with unlikable characters and a weird incest subplot. The abridged version forgoes morals, instead making the main character a psychotic jackass who's more in-line with a more likable league boards member than the original Kirito. He insults people, he goes berserk, he kills people Yet despite that is a more compelling character in a more compelling story because they ditched having a moral for comedy and actually good writing.
Not everyone is the same. Kled is psychotic, Sion is a berserker, Yorick is... kinda similar, actually, Galio still retains his depression but handles it in a more realistic way. Ivern is just the nicest guy (besides braum). Listen, the retcon freed up more space for characters like Tahm, who has a good greedy character. Also, if you think they've only now started adding arrogant jackasses, think again. Jarvan, Swain, Singed, Ezreal, many of the oldest champs are are arrogant jerks. So it's not new.
Poppy ain't cookie cutter. She's the humblest character, bordering on depressed, with incredibly low self-esteem. How does that fit the cookie cutter?
Lux didn't learn magic. She was born with the talent. "but anti-magic!" you say, to which I say "you could say you've got anti-gay tubing in the walls, won't stop gays from being born."
Ryze is going after the world runes to stop the problems, he's not a "muh sensei" character. TF and Graves worked to get their friendship back on track.
You need to take a look at plot depth. It would be so boring if Demacia was just "THE PLACE OF JUSTICE AND TRUTH THAT CAN DO NO WRONG" and made Noxus "LOOK AT US WE'RE THE EVIL CONQUERERS MWAHAHAHAHA." See the problem? Neither side is likable because neither is original in any way shape or form.
I like the new direction, as it makes the world more fleshed out, and gives us new ways to have interesting characters. You may not like it, but many do.
Ebonmaw Dragon1 votes[{quoted}](name=midnight oil24,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AZsqNEoW,comment-id=00070001,timestamp=2017-03-10T20:27:05.701+0000)
- Lux didn't learn magic. She was born with the talent. "but anti-magic!" you say, to which I say "you could say you've got anti-gay tubing in the walls, won't stop gays from being born."
It sound like a really bad anti-gay tubing if it doesnt protect them from all the sources of gayness.
-nothing against the gays, im only using the example
Acolyte of Steel2 votesYou may not like it, but many do.
We simply disagree on the quality of the work, which is fine I suppose. It's just disappointing what Riot gave up, given their reach.
Who needs a moral? Morals tend to drag down stories.
Did you pay attention in English class, all throughout highschool? Never studied college-level literature/english? That was an extremely ignorant thing to say in context of world history and world literature; ignorant of how we've achieved the modern world. Even the Harry Potter series had overarching morals. Stories that have persisted through hundreds of years and still remain relevant have overarching morals. The mythos of multiple ancient societies that we still revere today had overarching morals. Get your sh!te together.
Not everyone is the same.
Beg to differ. Arrogance alone doesn't make them drab, but when every character is presented in such an over-confident light, they start to lose value. The difference between Singed and Jayce was what they chose to fight for and how that influenced the rest of their presented personality. VO's now are largely just a series of "witty" quipps and jokes and lack that uniqueness. Champions like Kled, Tahm, Illaoi and Kalista should be the norm, not the exception! I'm working on another post for this analysis, so I won't go in-depth here - but I'll do Poppy's.
---Poppy How did you figure she's at all depressed? She's an extremely cheery yordle. She's living in the shadow of a man who seemed so much larger than life, she can't figure that she and Orlon had anything in common. That's not what "depression" is... See https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/depression/what-is-depression for a short list of everything that Poppy isn't. "If you're waiting for me to give up, you might be here a while." "Just had a thought - three pigtails!" "Every step is one step closer." None of those are things that depressed people would say. She appears very confident; she is jsut always surprised at how far her ult really sends people. That doesn't mean she's insecure, wtf. :^) (The rest of her lines are largely a variety of taunts and cheerful jokes)
Old Poppy was a blacksmith's daughter, who's father was assassinated when she was a child. Her father had been comissioned to make armor and weapons for Demacian troops, and was killed en route. That is why she has the skin "Blacksmith Poppy," because after his death, she took up his blacksmith's hammer as her weapon, in memory of her father and the peaceful life he had lived - and then died for, when he was such a menial part of the over-all machine. Personally, I just find that more entertaining than "whoopie-dee-da, look at me, might wanna move -- might get squished!!" These two Poppys have nothing in common.
Lux didn't learn magic. "You could say you've got anti-gay tubing in the walls, won't stop gays from being born."
But magic still needs to be practiced. Sorcerers and Sorceresses don't need runes to store magical information to direct spells, but you still must practice to learn how to control those forces. This was a weak point from me honestly, I'll be the first to admit that. She could easily be self-taught. That doesn't make her character destruction any less irritating. : ^)
Ryze is going after the world runes to stop the problems, he's not a "muh sensei" character.
OOoohhHH Yes he is! He went from a strong, independent "magical object" (according to a high Summoner) to a third-rate apprentice who lost his village and then his sensei to a tacky plot device called "world runes." Then he became an edgelord that kills villages. The Ryze prior only took up the scroll after, - AFTER!! - he became a Thornmage. He was a thornmage first, a being of rapture, at one with mana and Runeterra! He pursued what he knew makes all magi strongest, when they are truly one with mana: Emotion. While other magi insist on "concentration," he learned to control his emotions instead, keeping his heart and mind in sync. It was the antithesis to what any hero-type mage has been for decades, and millions of people got to see and appreciate that. :/ I guess he's still a thornmage in a way, because all those sharp edges in his background cut my f-king eyes every time I read it. : ^)
TF & Graves had to work to become friends again.
TF should have been shot to death on that raft, after they were out of danger. Period. Graves would have been happy to be alone in the ocean by himself, free of his past burdens - knowing TF's headless corpse was down below in the belly of the Bearded Lady.
You need to take a look at plot depth.
I did. I do always when I think of Riot Games, and I think of what they gave up what they didn't know they had. I already explained some of this above in my first post. Demacia and Noxus aren't nearly so cookie-cutter as you described them to be. That's kinda sad. I can elaborate if you want, but honestly, if you already read down this far I should be applauding you as it stands.
Fasmodey3 votesIt is powerful magic that awakens Galio. Lux may be not potent as you assume.
It requires a dense source of magic to awake Galio, high likely. Like Xerath, embodiment of magic, a vortex of arcane energy. Or Mordekaiser.
Acolyte of Steel2 votesGalio could have been awakened by virtually anything going on in Runeterra right now, truthfully. World runes, Shadow Isles, Frozen Watchers, Void, even Illaoi channeling the Bearded Lady - we have no idea just how much force and influence the Priestess channels.
Fasmodey2 votesGalio's magic sensation range is extremely likely limited. He probably doesn't even notice the magic beyond Demacia.
Acolyte of Steel2 votesWho knows. We don't really have enough information to tell just yet.
GreenLore2 votes[{quoted}](name=Summoner Ezraqel,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=AZsqNEoW,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-03-10T19:48:03.533+0000)
Look at this contrast in character traits: **Lux prior to VO: ** "Light mage?' I'm just an ordinary mage..." "Stay positive." "Tactical decision, Summoner!"
Lux VO expansion: "I’m a crown guard but you wear the crown; you’re a Lightshield but I wield the light!— b-b-ut I mean metaphorically, your highness!" "Hey! Who’re you calling a lady?" "You don’t like ME? Well I’d rather talk to a statue!"
Sion before VGU: I'm undead,I spout some Schwarzeneggerlines
Sion after VGU: A fallen hero of his nation,who sacrificed himself for it,who was then resurrected and turned into a monster.He is only brought out for battle,during which he looses control of himself,killing allies and foes alike,but when he is locked away again,he starts to realize what he has become,he starts to question his existence.
Acolyte of Steel3 votesThat's similar to the original lore too, except the expansion to how Noxus approaches Necromancy for their fallen heroes.
Both Sions are undead, revived heroes. It was considered a great honor for a hero or a general to be remade through necromancy, as at that point, the things you had accomplished and the person you were was thought to transcend death. The difference is in how those two Sions were relevant to the plot. The Old Sion was built to be controlled, potentially as a pawn for the Black Rose; which is why he's so braindead. He was just a malevolent corpse. That was the point - it was made a point OF in the narrative too. Reviving Sion was supposed to give Swain and LeBlanc political clout. The Noxian populace really didn't like it either; I remember reading that the populace was upset and even angry that their hero had been brought back in such a strange and cruel way.
In that way, both of them lose control during battle and could potentially kill allies and foes alike. The only difference is in his self-awareness.
GreenLore5 votesIt looks like the old lore was so bland that you have completely forgotten about it,because a lot of the points that you mention are only in the new lore and were never part of the old lore.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Sion/History
In the old lore,sion was simply revived by some nameless necromancers,because the noxian high command wanted to reuse their old champion. There was nothing else here,no subplot with the black rose,no mention of sion loosing control during battle,the noxian citizens had no problem with sions revival and there was no reason for him being braindead either(and even if there was one,that doesn't change the fact that a braindead character without any important backstory is simply bland).
Acolyte of Steel3 votesI'm not going to say "Oops, you got me!" because the Wikia has been very unreliable since the retcon. You had to read the JoJ's and stay up to date on Riot Announcements and shit that can't even be found on the Internet anymore since Riot deleted, overwrote, or scrapped it. Even TF's lore was updated so many times the wikia couldn't keep up, once upon a time.
This is why I say that Riot has never had their shit together and is a pretty stupid company over all. "Game development is pretty unpredictable," should never be a business model for a successful company. That's how most sensible business owners can tell their company could fail any month now. Actual quote, see here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFwrySPCff8
GreenLore2 votesWell there is this tidbit about Sion in the JoJ that outright says that Sions revival is actually more like a medal of honor than anything else.(which is also the pantheon quote about Sion at the start of his champion bio)
But respect for the dead takes many forms, and Noxus does not so easily abandon its own to adorn the battlements of an insolent enemy in tribute to foreign law. Galvanized by their champion’s heroic death, the assassins of Noxus – under the command of Katarina, the famed Sinister Blade – undertook a dangerous mission to recover Sion’s mortal remains. The Demacian propaganda machine may try to spin whatever fantastic story it wishes; our successful venture is plainly now a matter of public record.
In Noxus, for a true soldier, death does not have to be the end. The necromancers of the Bleak Academy have ways of preserving the ardent. Within Sion’s still heart, that same rage – that same glorious fervor that had made him the unstoppable juggernaut he was in life – still burned.
Even now, Sion serves Noxus. He shall always serve Noxus – an eternal champion of our banner, stalwartly defending the interests of the state on the Field of Justice. This is his just reward for a life of dedication to the advancement of the Empire, and to the glory of the High Command. This is any true Noxian loyalist’s ultimate reward.
Heck this even says that Sion still has the same fervor that he had in life,so why would he sound so deadbeat?
Acolyte of Steel2 votesRe-read that line again. Fervor =/= vitality. Fervor is defined as: "Intense and passionate feeling." "Within Sion’s still heart, that same rage – that same glorious fervor that had made him the unstoppable juggernaut he was in life – still burned." In this case, fervor is used to further describe the "rage" and the "unstoppable juggernaut."
That's how the JoJ's were done; it was less a role reveal and more a reporter's take on events in Runeterra. Judgements were for lore reveals, JoJ's were to maintain a living world and unwrap the conspiracies in Runeterra. Later announcements revealed the irritation Noxians felt between what the JoJ's had to report, and what the reality appeared to be.
Unpopular opinion, I know, that's why most people didn't like old Lore because of how poorly it was always delivered.
GreenLore2 votesSo why couldn't sion show these intense and passionate feelings ingame? After all the summoners communicated telepathically with the champion(which is why we could hear sona),but Sion wasn't filled with rage or fervor,not even in a deadbeat way...
Also I went through all the JoJs and that was the only time where Sion played any kind of role(aside from him in the Noxus vs ionia match).
But well in the end all this doesn't even matter that much,because the important point I was trying to make here is that the original sion was simply flat. You say,the only difference between the 2 is that the new sion is self-aware of his situation,but thats the important detail here. Because that self awareness makes him a more round character than the old sion. Even if you believe that the other stuff was already in the old lore(which I'd only believe you if you could give me a source),then that still doesn't change the fact that Sions own character became more interesting and multilayered.
And in general it is ok to like the old lore more than the new lore. I might not agree with that opinion,but I can respect it. However what I can't respect is when people start to pretty much insult the new lore,just because they don't like it(or in your case even insult riot themselves,I mean criticizing them is ok,but do it in a respectful manner).
Warlord Dienekes4 votesThe old lore was an interesting concept that Riot could have done something with. Of course Riot didn't actually do anything with it. So it ended up just being kind of a mess.
The new lore frees the writers from the League to do more traditional stories. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Traditional stories are traditional for a reason.
That said to be honest I'm not a fan of several of the decisions for these stories. But I have a certain taste in stories that apparently the writers do not share.
Fasmodey3 votesNew lore is million times more interesting than old lore, also has much more quality.
I prefer a well developed, nicely builded story to a crap one that only existed to explain why champions are actually fighting. It was its only duty.
A bad reason that was badly defined. Ebonmaw Dragon well said.
o0O Madoka O0o3 votesI like the newer lore better because the old lore is problematic in immersion. A lot of the reasons and actions of summoners doesn't make sense, and doesn't create enough immersion for me.
If they come up with better ideas about how to incorporate the gameplay with the lore, I will be happy with it, but the old lore doesn't do it for it. I prefer it to be a pure narrative story in its current form.
Requiemsfire3 votesAs someone who constantly stays updated with League's lore and for me it's definitely the new lore which focuses more on the character and the construction of their world, ideals and establishes a proper backstory with ambitions.
FloRaider422 votesThe old lore explained the gameplay, but not the world. The new lore explains the world, but not the gameplay. I personally prefer the new one, since Multiplayer games don't really need to have their gameplay explained.
Warlord Scrap2 votesActually thats why i picked league because the gameplay was explained. If i would be 17 starting mobas now i dont know which one i would pick.
ForgottenLuck2 votesNew one I like that my Champions actually have a reason to exist and are not just my puppet
Eternal7912 votesI feel like the new lore gives each champion more story potential. I mean how much story can you really have when all the characters do is get controlled by summoners and fight in a big arena?
Warlord Scrap1 votesoh the flip side of that coin without the league invincibility how long can every character survive. Let take lucian/thresh for example how long can lucian hunt thresh to save his wife before one of them has to dive or the storyline get stupid. And how is riot gonna handle characters dying. Are they gonna be removed from the game or are they going to just be removed from the lore thats my fear for the current lore.
LordHippoman1 votesCutting a champion from the game entirely because of plot death will not happen. That would be a ridiculously poor move on Riot's part, and in the 8 or so years of this game's existence, they have NEVER removed a champ (Except early, early Jax for a very short time.)
Warlord Scrap1 votesThen will they just be removed from the lore. Im not saying they have to remove the champi was just discussing how a champ dying in lore will effect the lore.
LordHippoman1 votesOh yeah, that's what I meant, I was trying to answer your question here:
" Are they gonna be removed from the game or are they going to just be removed from the lore thats my fear for the current lore."
GreenLore1 votesWell the game is seperate from the lore,so if a champ dies in the lore they could still keep him ingame.(they could remove the champ for a short time,though the reaction to GPs removal wasn't very kind,so I doubt they'd pull that again)
And even if a champ dies within the lore,it'd be still possible to involve him in lore pieces that play before his/her death.
DWT123452 votesNew lore is much better, the world feels more real and less of a joke, it just wasn't handled very well initially.
Earl Eulrich2 votesi really prefer the old dark but hillarious setting, i think it had been more fitting and had also more depth + it actually had been conected to the game.
abca981 votesI'm just here to ask what's the point of having summoners in the new lore. And yes it's a serious question.
Warlord Scrap1 votesThere isnt the summoners dont exist anymore its just a fancy title for you the player.
Keyshe1 votesI would say old lore..., but I like the more depth in the new. All I want is the old worked 'into' the new and change ONLY what they have to... and get the backstory lore up 'faster', so far we all have been sitting around waiting a looong time to see what is canon and what isn't anymore. With Sion rework l we got a bit... so much more is needed.
Warlord Scrap2 votesI agree while the new lore is much more indepth i liked the old storyline better i feel this is gonna have a warhammer fantasy ending in that you cant keep wars going forever without something happening
Sonasaurous1 votesI'm a bit of both. I liked the background of the champions in the old lore, but I like the autonomy of the champions in the new lore (in which there's none of that Summoners nonsense that quickly didn't make any sense).
However, one thing I loved was the Journal of Justice, which just kind of updated every week or so and told a little bit of a growing story at a time, which also weaved in nicely with new champions released (like Skarner during the Kalamanda incident).
It's little things, like the JoJ, that I miss the most and wish they would bring back. In that sense, we got a little bit of the story every week that built up on itself over time, rather than periodic large scale events that dumps a handful of lore on us.
Stars Shaper1 votesOverall I'm liking more the new Lore, it is more consistent and has an entire world to look at.
I do certainly miss some old characters (old Xerath was some1 I could relate more) but that's a rather minor thing.
Nylisa1 votesgive it time hopefully it will take shape and turn to a good story, the writing is much better and story is deeper . and they are setting the scenes well with the stories they been releasing so far.
GreenLore1 votesOverall I like the new lore more. While characters are more stylized,they do feel deeper and more multilayered than before and honestly the world also makes a lot more sense.(Summoning magic was simply broken if you used it correctly and was rather inconsistent anyway). Especially the latter part was likely one of the reasons why I couldn't immerse myself in the old lore anyway.
And while there were some points that I did like about the old lore(it was actually complete,explained the game and I liked the idea of legends from all over the world gathering at one place),I don't think that it beats the benefits of the new lore.