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@any Rioter:A simple "yes or no" question about the state of the lore.

Jeddy017··26 votes·23,899 views

Are things progressing? A simple question that doesn't need too much information for an answer.

And by progressing,I mean: Are the dreaded tech issues being worked on? Are lores being written? Are discussions happening? Are fans opinions being looked at?

Like I said,are things progressing?Yes or no? I'm not asking for ETAs.I learned already that Riot hate giving out ETAs. I'm not asking for every detail on the work that's being done for the progression of the lore. I don't even care if whoever answer works on/with the Narrative or not. I just want a simple answer.Though,I doubt the answer will give me too much faith.

EDIT:I have my answer,I am happy.

210 Comments

RiotBioluminescence37 votes

As others already know, I'm not on the lore or narrative team - but I am nosy and ask questions about it when I can. Hope I qualify for the 'any Rioter' requirement for the thread!

The answer to "Are things progressing?" is a solid YES.

Now, to give what little else I know (and it is very little - I'm sorry).
The tl;dr is - Stuff is being worked on, think in terms of months, stay suspicious!

The tech issues - those are the ones with probably the clearest timeline that I've found. No, I can't tell you what's involved or when, but it's not just a lore issue - it affects a few other areas too. Which (cynically?) is probably why it has a fire under it to hurry up. Think in terms of less than a year, more than a month - but as with all things, that is a development best guess and could turn into 'never'. This one is at least on the good side of likely.

**Lores **- This one is harder to talk about, even than the vague stuff above. They write them (and I know a writer who seems a bit sad that their character story hasn't got to you guys yet) but there have been shifts in focuses for the team. Might be due to the fallout from the retcon, might be due to changes in leadership. Might be for other reasons that I don't even have awareness of! I heard some optimistic news recently that would answer this question soundly, but again - it's several months out AT THE EARLIEST. That particular news may turn into 'never' but realize that I don't mean lores in general. Like - I could say that "burger = never" but you'd still get food at some point, just not that particular burger. Man, I hope I don't get fired for this burger analogy.

Discussions - Oh hell yes. So much discussion. I sometimes get to sit in on them, which is a great window into the process for me (and helps me develop my skills in other disciplines - always be learning!) Discussions are being had at all levels of the narrative side. The one regular discussion I regularly go to has discussions and decisions on the regions and cities and cultures, on the underlying metaphysics and belief systems, on the relationships between the champions, and more. That's only the one I'm in, which is a long, low burning one. There are more I don't see.

Fan opinions - Yes. Opinions looked at, yes. I won't say anything about the fan-fiction side of things (because that's a hornets nest and no mistake) but opinions on champions etc. are definitely looked at. Several times there have been calls to discuss champions (which went badly and/or weren't attended by red-names enough) because it's one way to find out what *elements *of a champion you guys really latch on to.

I know that the changes to Xerath and Trundle etc. pissed some people right off - and I could, in my innately diplomatic way, try to argue that the underlying core of both of them didn't change depending on your perspective (and you could all shout me down and call me a traitor - as is your right - especially as I'm not a Xerath or Trundle main) but if you have a champ that you want to make clear what the core motivation or struggle is - then writing about it here and having other players confirm and discuss it with you will have a non-zero chance of being read.

For example - I'm a Sona main - there was a discussion started by a player here a while ago about Sona, her kit, her old lore, and what we, the players, thought was her core. To me personally - I think that she probably has an unhealthy protector/oppressor relationship with her etwahl instrument - and if I were called to rewrite her lore, then I'd probably ensure that element was the core of it. Now, if someone else here felt that Sona's core motivation was her need to be the center of a crowd (maybe inspired by her aura-creating kit) then they'd ensure THAT was the linchpin of her story.

Now - don't worry - I'm not writing any lores here! (I'm actually trying to write some spare-time fan-fiction of my own, but reddit won't give me any writing feedback - bah.) But I'm saying that some champs have several aspects to them. Maybe it's a 'desire for power' - and some interpret that as a desire for magical power, and someone else interprets it as a desire for political power via magic.

So yes, I'm pretty sure they read your opinions - because they want to know what resonates most strongly with us all. Otherwise sometimes they hear 'blue' and go 'cyan', when someone else meant 'periwinkle'. (Bear in mind, that if every single shade of blue is shouted as the 'most critical' shade, then something's gotta give).

Commence the keelhauling!

CupcakeTrap12 votes

{quoted}

Discussions are being had at all levels of the narrative side. The one regular discussion I regularly go to has discussions and decisions on the regions and cities and cultures, on the underlying metaphysics and belief systems, on the relationships between the champions, and more. That's only the one I'm in, which is a long, low burning one. There are more I don't see.

Fan opinions - Yes. Opinions looked at, yes. I won't say anything about the fan-fiction side of things (because that's a hornets nest and no mistake) but opinions on champions etc. are definitely looked at. Several times there have been calls to discuss champions (which went badly and/or weren't attended by red-names enough) because it's one way to find out what *elements *of a champion you guys really latch on to.

I think it would be nice to bring the community into some of those larger, more "slow-burning" discussions about settings and metaphysics as well. Really, if you gave me a choice between Narrative talking to the community about Champions and talking to the community about settings (e.g. particular factions), I'm pretty sure I'd choose the latter. I would throw things at the screen and hiss if they retconned Veigar into a wandering lizard-man from Noxus who's on a quest for vengeance with a dark and mysterious past, sure, but what would really upset me would be if they came in and drastically rewrote (say) Bandle City or Demacia without any community engagement.

For example, I have heard rumors that Narrative wants to delete the Mothership. I cannot imagine that Summoners of the Riotous Fists Clan would contemplate such terrible heresy. May the Celestial Autopilot protect us from these wicked schemes, and may these infidels suffer a thousand ankle-bites and a million tiny scratches by the teeth and claws of faithful yordles.

RiotBioluminescence8 votes

{quoted} For example, I have heard rumors that Narrative wants to delete the Mothership. I cannot imagine that Summoners of the Riotous Fists Clan would contemplate such terrible heresy. May the Celestial Autopilot protect us from these wicked schemes, and may these infidels suffer a thousand ankle-bites and a million tiny scratches by the teeth and claws of faithful yordles.

Man. Yordles. I'm relatively new to Riot, but there has been nothing I've seen more controversial than yordles. The love/hate relationship with their very existence goes to the highest levels. Of all the things I mentioned earlier that should be made clear is a player-favorite and non-negotiable, it should be opinions on yordles and their background.

Fun fact (or at least, I heard it in the office) - Gnar was once going to be a 'dark and gritty' yordle because someone was sick of yordles being such silly things. It is my very personal opinion that I am really happy that didn't happen. Controversy!!!

CupcakeTrap9 votes

{quoted}

Man. Yordles. I'm relatively new to Riot, but there has been nothing I've seen more controversial than yordles. The love/hate relationship with their very existence goes to the highest levels. Of all the things I mentioned earlier that should be made clear is a player-favorite and non-negotiable, it should be opinions on yordles and their background.

Fun fact (or at least, I heard it in the office) - Gnar was once going to be a 'dark and gritty' yordle because someone was sick of yordles being such silly things. It is my very personal opinion that I am really happy that didn't happen. Controversy!!!

I've certainly noticed that in Factions. Some people really, REALLY hate yordles. (It honestly sort of surprised me, because, I mean, they're yordles. One of my friends has a theory that some people just get really angry at the idea of being beaten by cute fuzzballs.) Granted, that was in part because at one point Bandle City double-crossed Zaun ("betrayordles") after Zaun had quite magnanimously deployed troops to protect them from an undead horde. It still seems like a disproportionate amount of hate. After all, Zaun set off a bomb in Piltover, and while a lot of people dislike Zaun, it doesn't seem quite as fierce. It's like people are vaguely okay with other "awesome dudes" wrecking them, but flip out if their victorious adversary is a cuddly little yordle. I suppose there's potentially something "emasculating" about it; it would be interesting to see if yordle opinions split along gender lines.

Myself, I rather like yordles. I think their "edginess" should come from how alien and inhuman they are, which is part of why I'm a big proponent of the Mothership idea. On the one hand, I think it's derpily hilarious that they're a race of hamster-cats who worship a spacecraft, and it definitely adds to their cuteness. On the other hand, it also gives them some depth, and helps explain why other civilizations have trouble trusting them—they're ordinarily a pleasant people, with a knack for a non-threatening brand of trade and commerce, but if the Mothership commands them to do something, they'll break every other promise to obey. In addition, the Mothership is just downright weird, and I think yordles are much more interesting if their cuteness is tempered by an vaguely eerie sub-theme. A certain xenophobia also seems like an appropriate counterbalancing trait for a species that's so intensely community-oriented. The whole "Teemo is actually a sociopath" thing might have originally been a "lol why not" joke, but I think it's become more than that: it's just the sort of perverse twist that I think gives yordles some depth. It's funny, but also alienating and weird. I think that's wonderful.

I have to say that I find the idea of a darker-and-grittier yordle kind of weird. Especially with the retcon of the League, I think Valoran is getting much too dark, bordering on genuine grimdark at times: my overwhelming impression of the new Valoran is a miserable, wretched place where every faction hides out in its little hole fighting to survive, deeply suspicious of all others, and often only dimly aware of their very existence. I really, really don't like that, and I don't think it's a good fit for League. Some people object to the idea of League as "cartoony" or "derpy", but I think it's deep in its DNA, and I don't think it's a bad thing. Some people have this penchant for grimdark fiction, perhaps especially those who fear that others will mock their love of fantasy as frivolous or "sissy". I had such an inclination myself for a while. But really, I think League's comic-book punchiness and handwavey casualness give it much of its charm. Silly, cute yordles are becoming even more important, now that everything else seems to be going uber-dark.

Speaking of what I've noticed a strange amount of hatred for—Riven. There is a sizable contingent of Factions community members who despise Riven with greater vitriol than I would have expected. I'm not sure if it's because they see her as a traitor to Noxus or what. (Some people suggest that it might be in part due to her annoying gameplay presence.)

CrazedPorcupine6 votes

I did read absolutely everything, and I think most people in factions hate riven because of her gameplay.

Sharjo8 votes

Even though I don't play in factions, I despise Riven solely based on her gameplay. Jeez that woman. Interesting and compelling backstory that's completely dead to me because her kit makes me hate her guts.

:(

RiotBioluminescence9 votes

{quoted}

Speaking of what I've noticed a strange amount of hatred for—Riven. There is a sizable contingent of Factions community members who despise Riven with greater vitriol than I would have expected. I'm not sure if it's because they see her as a traitor to Noxus or what. (Some people suggest that it might be in part due to her annoying gameplay presence.)

I've been told that Riven and Sona are two particularly knotty champs to work on, one of the reasons being that a non-zero number of players are surprisingly... um... fond and protective of those ladies. Surprising to me, maybe I should say. Taric gets similar treatment, though perhaps from a different portion of the player base.

That doesn't explain the Riven hate but it speaks to a small portion of the Riven love.

On your other note - I'm fully in favor of Yordles being part of our comic, weird, and anti-grimdark element. I can totally see that there are people who push against that, declaring that it is too silly for super-serial stories, etc. I'm not a fan of that - if Shakespeare is internationally loved for fart and dick jokes, then we're certainly not too good for yordles!

CupcakeTrap8 votes

{quoted}

I've been told that Riven and Sona are two particularly knotty champs to work on, one of the reasons being that a non-zero number of players are surprisingly... um... fond and protective of those ladies. Surprising to me, maybe I should say. Taric gets similar treatment, though perhaps from a different portion of the player base.

That doesn't explain the Riven hate but it speaks to a small portion of the Riven love.

I really enjoy Riven's character. (Her voicework is pretty good, too, although I find myself involuntarily giggling at what I call the "Guidance Counselor Riven" lines—it's weird to go from "So much death…" to "Follow your own path!") I think she's got a deeply compelling backstory, and really deepens the Noxian setting: it's challenging, but I think rewarding, to contemplate why some Noxians might not embrace "victory at all costs", and might not see total annihilation through techmaturgic weaponry as a true victory. This was one of the first big Factions "interactive lore events": The True Noxus, where Noxian Summoners had to decide between Singed and Riven. (They went with Riven.) She returned to play a key role in Shon-Xan, at the end of which the Reformists lost out to the "New Noxus" movement under Swain, with a particularly crushing defeat during a failed uprising (which Riven took no part in on either side) in the course of the Hextech Revolution.

I won't say she's my favorite character. But I like her. If I have a major gripe against her, it's that she's so angsty and self-righteous, and still has some serious narcissism going on. (Indeed, one not-entirely-unfair critical framing of her backstory would be that she was totally fine with slaughtering civilians until she got caught in the crossfire.) More than making her unsympathetic, those traits can start to get kind of tiresome: I for one do not get particularly excited about "another lore update of Riven moralizing". She's not as fun as many other characters, but she can be compelling.

The other thing is that, while I like her backstory overall, the Vietnam allusions reeeeeaaalllly push that derpy line. You know, the one that Doran's story is right on top of, and a hypothetical story about Noxus enacting a "Final Solution" for "the Yordle problem" would lie just on the other side of. There was a little bit of "holy fuck, did you REALLY just…oh, FFS, Riot, really?"

{quoted}

On your other note - I'm fully in favor of Yordles being part of our comic, weird, and anti-grimdark element. I can totally see that there are people who push against that, declaring that it is too silly for super-serial stories, etc. I'm not a fan of that

I think yordles really are delightful that way. It's such a refreshing break from Noxians and Demacians hitting each other with big pieces of metal, and all the decapitations and disembowelings. I do think that it's even better if the yordles themselves have just a twinge of eeriness, which is part of why I like the Mothership: if they're pure sugar, I think it's a little too much. Besides, in another sense, their "alien" quality makes them all the cuter. It's also nice because they're really the only major non-human civilization around, and so I think it's appropriate to play up the fact that, no, they don't really work quite like humans.

Sona As for Sona, I think it's interesting that people are so attached to her. My favorite thing about her was the old joke about how she's the most bloodthirsty Champion in the League, though I admit I find that joke a bit less enjoyable now, as it was a playful jest about "why would she join the League?", and that ties into the case built in secret against the League in the darker corners of the Narrative department prior to the Great Retcon. Doesn't seem quite as funny anymore. Instead, I've moved to the slightly more aggressive joke about:

Only you can hear me, BLUE TEAM PLAYER #5.

I've made my peace with Riot splitting lore and gameplay. But to me it seems eminently reasonable that, if we're "still Summoners in the game", even if we've been kicked out of Runeterra generally, we ought to be allowed to be, well, Summoners in the game. What's the harm in Champions talking about Summoners? I mean, the new party line is that Summoner's Rift doesn't actually exist in Runeterra. They're not rushing to rename it "Magical Person's Rift". So why the haste to scrub the voicework of any reference to the players (Summoners)? I found it immersive to have the Champions banter at me from time to time, whether to encourage me to "Stay positive!" or complimenting my "tactical decision", or to leer at me about the stains on my soul ("PERFECT!"). I mean, c'mon, guys, give us a break. Aren't we still allowed to have some fun with this?

AbiwonKenabi7 votes

I mean, c'mon, guys, give us a break. Aren't we still allowed to have some fun with this?

BAD Cupcake, NO FUN. This isn't a game, this is serious business. TIMEOUT WITH JUICEBOX FOR YOU.

CupcakeTrap6 votes

{quoted}

BAD Cupcake, NO FUN. This isn't a game, this is serious business. TIMEOUT WITH JUICEBOX FOR YOU.

Timeout (with juicebox): the harshest punishment known to yordle law.

Hellioning11 votes

Okay, I'm going to be polite because it's a Rioter I actually like.

Seriously? It's gonna be months? HOW LONG AGO was the retcon? And we're not getting stuff for months?

You guys are debating more often than Congress. Sometimes you just gotta grin it and release something if you want the public to think you're not a bunch of politicians, you know?

RiotBioluminescence19 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I'm going to be polite because it's a Rioter I actually like.

Seriously? It's gonna be months? HOW LONG AGO was the retcon? And we're not getting stuff for months?

You guys are debating more often than Congress. Sometimes you just gotta grin it and release something if you want the public to think you're not a bunch of politicians, you know?

I was furious when I heard, too. "It can't take that long!" I said, and "What on earth is keeping it!?" Then I demanded to know if there was anything I could do to hurry things along - surely there must be something I can do, however menial or outwith my job description, to let the people involved get to it even faster! I was taken aside, and had it all explained to me - those sorts of timelines included.

I wasn't happy either, but the plans that they have sound reasonable behind the scenes. I can see why they'd keep quiet about it - because if any part of the plan fails or changes, more delays are absolutely not what anyone wants to hear about. "Wait and see" is the suckiest thing to say, worse to hear, and I imagine some feel that they should just keep their mouths shut until they have something to show.

Thanks, by the way, for not going off on one on me, Hellioning. I appreciate it - even if I have come here and given the sort of news that nobody wants.

Hellioning7 votes

I'm not part of a multi-million dollar company, so I don't really understand why there would be so many delays; I'm used to smaller scope projects, and that sort of delay is inexcusable for me. But maybe that's just how they run things?

Like, do they do something like champion releases? There's always at least a couple of champions in production at any one time; some might just be concepts that Rito is trying out, and then there's some that are confirmed 'we want to do this' that are having their art done and getting coded, and then there's some that are in preliminary testing and waiting for them to get the OK for release. Does narrative not do anything similar? It's not like this hasn't been a new thing; I get that trying to come up with a cohesive narrative for your entire, multi-million dollar IP is a daunting task, but they've had years since the JoJ was removed and almost a full year since the retcon announcement, and we still only have lore when Riot wants to sell us something.

Well, at least you talked to us about it. Thanks for communicating, Bioluminescence, even if it's not what anyone wants to hear.

RiotBioluminescence14 votes

{quoted}

I'm not part of a multi-million dollar company, so I don't really understand why there would be so many delays; I'm used to smaller scope projects, and that sort of delay is inexcusable for me. But maybe that's just how they run things?

Like, do they do something like champion releases? There's always at least a couple of champions in production at any one time; some might just be concepts that Rito is trying out, and then there's some that are confirmed 'we want to do this' that are having their art done and getting coded, and then there's some that are in preliminary testing and waiting for them to get the OK for release. Does narrative not do anything similar? It's not like this hasn't been a new thing; I get that trying to come up with a cohesive narrative for your entire, multi-million dollar IP is a daunting task, but they've had years since the JoJ was removed and almost a full year since the retcon announcement, and we still only have lore when Riot wants to sell us something.

Well, at least you talked to us about it. Thanks for communicating, Bioluminescence, even if it's not what anyone wants to hear.

Having come from a smaller game development team, I understand your questioning.

I asked similar questions myself, and found out that the writing team is involved on the champion creation team - each one is (from what I've been told) involved with something in the region of 3 upcoming champs at any one time. Their role in that is one of keeping the creative vision aligned between multiple departments - ensuring that the concept, the art, the kit, the vo and sound, the effects, etc. etc. all tie together and reinforce each other and the core concept. It sounds simple, and in a smaller dev team there wouldn't even need to be a person to do that! But here, from what I can tell, that's a big job with a lot of moving parts - especially with the amount of iteration that champs go through internally. There's also writing new VO, working with outsource on champ videos, working on teaser sites, and probably more.

And yes - it's so much easier to get writing time when a new champion has a deadline coming up and they NEED to get their video or short snippet of writing, or 5 sentence background, done and localized by a set release date. It's easy to see that as "Only when Riot tries to sell something" but it's likely that everything else gets pushed out of the way when a new champ is about to drop, because that's the most broadly exciting thing to players and usually has a real deadline to hit.

In the background, groundwork goes on in the gaps - getting clear handles on other parts of the Runeterra world, making sure they work together, and ensuring that it gets turned into useful forms that every Rioter can understand and won't accidentally contradict.

I'm trying to write about how longer lore was written for a while (like RekSai and Sion) but that releasing things like that (like Azir, etc.) on forums probably wasn't very successful. The forums, as a way of releasing stuff, is a pretty crappy method. The forums are a small, but very interesting, corner of the way that players interact with League - most players never go there, and then if you divide it up by language and region, that proportion seems even smaller. Posting lore on them seems like an easy win to the people here - but maybe it sucks for the people who would want to read about it, but never come here? Or people in China or Poland who don't even know this place exists. Waiting for a way of getting it to more people via the game probably starts to seem really attractive - as unforgivable it is to the people here who have been waiting for so long.

I say I'm trying to write that (and I just did) but it was hard to write without being misunderstood. I'm going on what I've heard and I don't know the numbers or the schedules of the people involved, so this is at least 40% speculation on my part.

Hellioning8 votes

I asked similar questions myself, and found out that the writing team is involved on the champion creation team - each one is (from what I've been told) involved with something in the region of 3 upcoming champs at any one time. Their role in that is one of keeping the creative vision aligned between multiple departments - ensuring that the concept, the art, the kit, the vo and sound, the effects, etc. etc. all tie together and reinforce each other and the core concept. It sounds simple, and in a smaller dev team there wouldn't even need to be a person to do that! But here, from what I can tell, that's a big job with a lot of moving parts - especially with the amount of iteration that champs go through internally. There's also writing new VO, working with outsource on champ videos, working on teaser sites, and probably more.

Ignoring the obvious jokes (yeah, writing the VO for Bard must have taken a long time) that seems like a bad way to run something like this. I know that lore is basically last in terms of priority, but splitting up a team that I'm fairly certain is very small seems like a good way to get nothing done.

And yes - it's so much easier to get writing time when a new champion has a deadline coming up and they NEED to get their video or short snippet of writing, or 5 sentence background, done and localized by a set release date. It's easy to see that as "Only when Riot tries to sell something" but it's likely that everything else gets pushed out of the way when a new champ is about to drop, because that's the most broadly exciting thing to players and usually has a real deadline to hit.

And I'd be fine with that, but the only time since the retcon that there's been lore when they weren't trying to hype up something new was the Amumu video/poem, and maybe the Harrowing event, if you count that as unrelated to the harrowing skins. And the Amumu thing was basically 'Amumu has not changed at all since the retcon, don't worry!' That's nice and all, but it wasn't what anyone was expecting, and I don't think many people necessarily wanted that to be the one bit of lore we got.

In the background, groundwork goes on in the gaps - getting clear handles on other parts of the Runeterra world, making sure they work together, and ensuring that it gets turned into useful forms that every Rioter can understand and won't accidentally contradict.

Groundworking has been going on in the background since the JoJ was removed. At least I hope it was, because otherwise it meant that the narrative team was doing nothing but champ releases. I'm getting tired of people getting groundwork done, and I kinda want them to put up a couple of buildings already.

I'm trying to write about how longer lore was written for a while (like RekSai and Sion) but that releasing things like that (like Azir, etc.) on forums probably wasn't very successful. The forums, as a way of releasing stuff, is a pretty crappy method. The forums are a small, but very interesting, corner of the way that players interact with League - most players never go there, and then if you divide it up by language and region, that proportion seems even smaller. Posting lore on them seems like an easy win to the people here - but maybe it sucks for the people who would want to read about it, but never come here? Or people in China or Poland who don't even know this place exists. Waiting for a way of getting it to more people via the game probably starts to seem really attractive - as unforgivable it is to the people here who have been waiting for so long.

I understand that the forums are not a great long term solution, and given what a mess the client is, I believe Riot when they complain about technical issues. But is the only reason they're not releasing the lores on the forums as a stopgap measure 'it wouldn't be fair to people that don't read the forums'? That's true enough, I guess, but I'd rather have a few people not realize it exists rather than it not existing at all.

Actually, is that the only reason the lore isn't getting released? I could have sworn I saw a couple of reds say that the lores weren't finished or they had gone back to revise or something...

I say I'm trying to write that (and I just did) but it was hard to write without being misunderstood. I'm going on what I've heard and I don't know the numbers or the schedules of the people involved, so this is at least 40% speculation on my part.

well at least you're trying, and communicating. Better than nothing!

Ark Angel HFB7 votes

{quoted}

The forums are a small, but very interesting, corner of the way that players interact with League - most players never go there

So then why were the longer lore removed from the client... and never replaced with anything.

The issue is that from our point of view... it is willful negligence at best man. Try to see it from our view point.

Longer lores were ON the client. They were there for anyone to read. They got removed and we complained and were instantly told. "Do not worry... we WILL have the longer lores up very soon... in like a week."

That was months ago... literally months ago.

The JoJ was fully removed and we asked that it please be archived... it was not. and we still have tio depend on third party sites for it.

Further back still there was a TWO YEAR gap where narrative refused to talk to any of us. And that was right after they wrecked Karma and Trundle.

I like you man... I really do. but please see it from our point of view that the pattern is there of just not giving a crap about our wises for the lore.

So when everyone else at Riot says soon... we laugh and put a TM at the end... but when Narrative says it... we just cringe cause it means it straight isn't going to happen... and we are powerless to get through to anyone so we feel voiceless.

In the end our love for the game dies little by little with the lore...

Chromatic Eagle6 votes

Well by that logic, why even talk about the lore at all? People from different regions can't read your comments here? What about Riot and their obsession with Reddit? Several times they have discussions over there without announcing it here. We have to learn about it from Surrender@20 and stalk these forums. Wasn't the purpose of changing these forums were so you all could bring those discussions here? Why not post those stories in different languages for the different regions? I don't understand the difference between how Sion's story was released on this website, Kalista's video was released on youtube, and posting bios here in different languages. Do the Asian fans get to watch videos and website lore in their own languages? Why go the extra mile for those stories but not forum stories? Why post on reddit and not here? Aren't website followers the majority of posters?

RiotRiot ShadowStorm11 votes

There's always at least a couple of champions in production at any one time; some might just be concepts that Rito is trying out, and then there's some that are confirmed 'we want to do this' that are having their art done and getting coded, and then there's some that are in preliminary testing and waiting for them to get the OK for release. Does narrative not do anything similar? It's not like this hasn't been a new thing; I get that trying to come up with a cohesive narrative for your entire, multi-million dollar IP is a daunting task, but they've had years since the JoJ was removed and almost a full year since the retcon announcement, and we still only have lore when Riot wants to sell us something.

I can shed a little more light on this, for champions at least. At Riot, we mostly form teams around the things we release to you, the players - not around our specific fields. New champions is one of those teams, and it includes some writers. That is, they're narrative writers ON Champion team, and both parts together are what is really important. (this is true for most other fields as well, by the way)

When we're working on new champions, narrative is one of the key pieces involved from Day 1. It isn't a matter of just shipping champs off to "the narrative team" at the end to write a backstory. Narrative is involved from the very beginning, and they work with the rest of champion team AS WELL as the rest of the narrative discipline to make sure our champs are the best they can be and fit into the world we're building.

And like Bioluminescence mentioned, the narrative writers on champion team are involved in multiple champions at the same time, at different stages. They help explore and set tone, keep art and gameplay cohesive, work on VO, assist with launch materials, and so much more. They're integral to helping members of the champion team understand who these characters are, which we believe makes everything about them better.

I know this doesn't answer the larger lore questions you have (and unfortunately, I don't know those answers), but I hope it at least helps give some more context. And lastly, to one of your latter points, this isn't about "selling you something". The story you get with new releases is a culmination of a lot of work from the very beginning to make a character you'll (hopefully) love.

GenoXx8 votes

Dude, Why is it always on champ release??? It wasn't like this before(JoJ) So ur telling me that none of the said stories from last year about the shurima champs are going to get release simply because who ever is put on the next champ's team isn't working on those champs???

So since Ezreal already got released, we won't be seeing anymore of him or anyone else, **or ** ANY progression into the story of league because you guys are only doing champ release stories now.

Just Wow. Hopes we're already hanging by a thread, now it's just shot down.

RiotRiot ShadowStorm9 votes

Dude, Why is it always on champ release??? It wasn't like this before(JoJ) So ur telling me that none of the said stories from last year about the shurima champs are going to get release simply because who ever is put on the next champ's team isn't working on those champs???

So since Ezreal already got released, we won't be seeing anymore of him or anyone else, or ANY progression into the story of league because you guys are only doing champ release stories now.

Just Wow. Hopes we're already hanging by a thread, now it's just shot down.

Wanted to address this, because maybe my point wasn't clear. I was trying to explain why lore is being tied to champion releases. Narrative is a key part of the champion creation process, so there will be story components to those releases.

However, that is NOT to say that it will ONLY be tied to champ releases. I don't know the larger narrative plans (though Bioluminescence tracked down some info elsewhere in this thread), but the overall strategy is not just "champ release stories!". You'll get more stories on champions that already exist; I'm just not the one to say when or how.

Ark Angel HFB10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=0004000100000000000100020000,timestamp=2015-03-18T18:29:39.470+0000)

So ur telling me that none of the said stories from last year about the shurima champs are going to get release simply because who ever is put on the next champ's team isn't working on those champs???

Wanted to address this, because maybe my point wasn't clear. I was trying to explain why lore is being tied to champion releases. Narrative is a key part of the champion creation process, so there will be story components to those releases.

However, that is NOT to say that it will ONLY be tied to champ releases. I don't know the larger narrative plans (though Bioluminescence tracked down some info elsewhere in this thread), but the overall strategy is not just "champ release stories!". You'll get more stories on champions that already exist; I'm just not the one to say when or how.

So is that a promise, with no time frame, from someone who isn't on the Narrative team... oh well stop the God damn presses people that is some big news.

I mean just recently lets look at your track record concerning OLDER champs.

EZ was embarrassed, Sivir stunned in horror at death, Cass a villain who likes to get her own hands dirty, Xert got turned into a Jafar, Skarner had ALL of his lore remove, and what was all this to benefit... the "release" of one champ.

So you fucked over 5 characters... completely missed their core identities with their fans... and did it all to serve the purpose of a new champ.

But thanks for this completely pointless, unhelpful, unreliable due to lack of time frame reassurance... doesn't change the fact you guys are not meaningfully talking to us and that we are almost certain you will fuck up the next batch of champs you touch... but hell we get stories at some unconfirmed date in the future... lovely

TerraRising14 votes

I'm sorry you and the other reds feel like you're getting attacked and that we hate you. There are those who are very bitter, myself included, but it's mostly because of a lack of information on any progress and the other recent issues (legal reasons and all...)

However, there is one thing that I needed to address from your post that sums up both the Riot's position and the Lore Fans' frustration at the company.

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=0004000100000000000100020000,timestamp=2015-03-18T18:29:39.470+0000)You'll get more stories on champions that already exist; I'm just not the one to say when or how.

In essence, you're telling us that...

We're working on the problem, but we can't reveal anything right now. We know it's frustrating. We're players/fans too and we really want to deliver new content to you. We also know you're tired of hearing this this from us, but we really need more time and we ask you to trust us even if we can't give you a reason to."

In other words, the exact same shit we've heard for the past three years from Riot and Narrative. If you wonder why we jump on every Red that posts in here, Narrative or not, it's because every single one of you keeps giving us the same song and dance and nothing changes.

We've been given nothing but the same lies and bullshit from Runaan, Opeli, and Kitae after the Freljord disaster that we've been getting from TommyGnox, Jaredan and Loping Cinder. It's old, it's frustrating and we deserve better treatment and results after waiting this long.

Even when Rioters tell us "we want to make Lore a priority," they NEVER actually do that, which just creates another lie that they've constantly told us.

So, when someone like Bio comes in and says "you should feel angry and you deserve to be angry because we've failed you for way too long." we gravitate to it. Hell, when Morello admits that, at a PAX panel streamed on Twitch, that lore fans deserve to feel bad about the failures from Riot over Lore, it's disappointing but refreshing because it justifies what we've been feeling for years now.

So yes, I'm sorry that many reds feel like they're getting attacked when they post here. Unfortunately, it's a monster that the entire company created after four years of the same lies and broken promises and it doesn't look like it's getting better.

RiotRiot ShadowStorm16 votes

I'm sorry you and the other reds feel like you're getting attacked and that we hate you. There are those who are very bitter, myself included, but it's mostly because of a lack of information on any progress and the other recent issues (legal reasons and all...)

At the risk of falling into the trap of saying the same thing every other Rioter says... I know that the anger and attacks are born of passion. The fact that you are taking the time to post, and putting in this amount of effort (no matter how it manifests) means that you care. You, and everybody else who posts on this cares deeply - so, so deeply - about this world we've created. That's insanely humbling, and it's something I continue to remind myself whenever I feel attacked. It's why I keep coming back.

We've been given nothing but the same lies and bullshit from Runaan, Opeli, and Kitae after the Freljord disaster that we've been getting from TommyGnox, Jaredan and Loping Cinder. It's old, it's frustrating and we deserve better treatment and results after waiting this long.

Even when Rioters tell us "we want to make Lore a priority," they NEVER actually do that, which just creates another lie that they've constantly told us.

So, when someone like Bio comes in and says "you should feel angry and you deserve to be angry because we've failed you for way too long." we gravitate to it. Hell, when Morello admits that, at a PAX panel streamed on Twitch, that lore fans deserve to feel bad about the failures from Riot over Lore, it's disappointing but refreshing because it justifies what we've been feeling for years now.

I'll double-down on what Bioluminescence said - you deserve to feel angry. We've promised things, and then not delivered. It is not unreasonable for you to sit there and say "hey, what the hell Riot?"

The thing is, there is a whole reality of development that you don't see. There is SO much work going on behind the scenes. Not just in narrative, but across the board. We experiment on things, test them out, and then throw it away if it doesn't work. If it does work, we keep testing, iterating, refining.

We also rely on other teams to help get things out to players - so we need to share that context. Even when things go smoothly, it takes time to get everybody on board. It's even harder to share that outward, because we run the very real risk of promising something, and then not delivering. Which then causes you to sit there and say (again) "hey, what the hell Riot?"

It's a really hard thing. We could just not talk about anything until it's set and ready for release; but that feels unsatisfying. And odds are, we'd just be accused of not caring.

But If we speak on things too early, we'll likely end up shifting directions (if only subtly) before release. I know that every single person you called out was speaking the truth at the time they posted. But the truth can, and will, shift over time - and then we're branded as liars.

Unfortunately, it's a monster that the entire company created after four years of the same lies and broken promises and it doesn't look like it's getting better.

I honestly don't know how to solve this, other than finally delivering on what we've promised. But that's just repeating something you already know, and I totally get that it's unsatisfying. Closing with that only adds more frustration.

So instead, I'll close with some of my personal feelings. This isn't me speaking as a Rioter, but as a fellow passionate player. These also aren't directed at you, TerraRising, but just my thoughts in general:

  • Personally, I think the claim that there's been no lore development is a little unfair. This thread from a while back recapped everything that happened last year (including the retcon), and tried to extrapolate what it meant, and what we learned. I don't know how accurate the conclusions are, and I'm sure a lot of what's there is up for debate. But I also think it pretty solidly illustrates that there was a LOT of stuff released last year.

  • I think there's room to channel the frustrations more productively. Jumping at people with these frustrations, while understandable, is a total turnoff. It feels as though some people are so determined to be mad that they'll twist anything that is said to justify being mad. I've literally been working on this post for 2 hours trying to make sure I don't say anything that's just going to get taken out of context and make matters worse. I truly feel that my intentions - and those of my fellow Rioters - are coming from the right place. So if something in here comes off sounding bad, it's most likely me doing a bad job of expressing myself.

  • I would love to find more threads talking about broad topics. It's easier for me to engage when we aren't getting bogged down into very specific executions. What themes do you enjoy seeing? Are there certain parts of the world you want to see developed? Heck, do you even care about world-building? Or are champ stories the only thing that matters? Did you prefer any particular story style? Let's talk about those things.

  • And lastly, as much as we all love League - we're also all people. Let's engage on those levels too! What stories had the biggest impact on you? What are your goals in life? What are your favorite games of all time, and why? There are so many ways we can engage as people and as players here on the boards, and I think that will go a long way to establishing a baseline connection which we can leverage to have these harder conversations in a healthy and productive way.

That was a giant wall of text, but I hope it was helpful in some way. I don't think there's much more I can add on this topic, so I'm going to hop out of this topic. Also, I spent so long on this that I forgot to eat dinner, so I need to find some food... But hey, if anybody takes anything positive away from this post, then it was totally worth. =)

It's always a pleasure chatting with you all. You can be sure that I'll keep looking out for more places to jump in and talk.

Hellioning12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=000400010000000000010002000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-19T06:31:59.966+0000)

  • Personally, I think the claim that there's been no lore development is a little unfair. This thread from a while back recapped everything that happened last year (including the retcon), and tried to extrapolate what it meant, and what we learned. I don't know how accurate the conclusions are, and I'm sure a lot of what's there is up for debate. But I also think it pretty solidly illustrates that there was a LOT of stuff released last year.

And unfortunately for everyone involved, a bunch of that stuff was either an attempt to sell us something (all that focus and development that Shurima got would not have happened if Azir wasn't a thing).

  • I think there's room to channel the frustrations more productively. Jumping at people with these frustrations, while understandable, is a total turnoff. It feels as though some people are so determined to be mad that they'll twist anything that is said to justify being mad. I've literally been working on this post for 2 hours trying to make sure I don't say anything that's just going to get taken out of context and make matters worse. I truly feel that my intentions - and those of my fellow Rioters - are coming from the right place. So if something in here comes off sounding bad, it's most likely me doing a bad job of expressing myself.

'Productive' implies that being nice and understanding has done anything for us. I understand that hate and rage just makes Rioters not want to deal with the forums, or even just the playerbase, but it's not like narrative's communication can get much worse. Even if they just stop talking to us altogether, all we miss out on is 'We understand that you are frustrated, but don't worry, we'll be done eventually sometime probably maybe!'

I understand that it's incredibly tiring to go home after a hard days of work and load up the forums to chat with the playerbase to be met with a wall of bile. It's why I try to keep my frustrations in check. But to us, 'Riot working hard, trying to get lore out to us as fast as they can' and 'Rioters laughing about how the stupid forum people ACTUALLY THINK they care about lore' look identical.

  • I would love to find more threads talking about broad topics. It's easier for me to engage when we aren't getting bogged down into very specific executions. What themes do you enjoy seeing? Are there certain parts of the world you want to see developed? Heck, do you even care about world-building? Or are champ stories the only thing that matters? Did you prefer any particular story style? Let's talk about those things.

I don't want to talk about broad topics, though. Like, if you want me to write up an essay on the various problems I feel currently plague League lore, I'll do it if it'll invite discourse, but that's not what I want Riot communicating with us on.

See, I've looked at Trundle, and Karma, and Xerath, and the minor changes that don't seem like much but can hurt to a dedicated lover of past lore. And I'm worried. On most of the big character changes, I've seen Rioters admitting, a couple of months later, that they underestimated how much some people liked Trundle's underdog nature/Karma's fans, or Xelnath having to explain to Jaredan 'this is why Xerath fans are upset'. I want to make sure Riot knows why we like champions, because I'm not particularly happy at their track record.

  • And lastly, as much as we all love League - we're also all people. Let's engage on those levels too! What stories had the biggest impact on you? What are your goals in life? What are your favorite games of all time, and why? There are so many ways we can engage as people and as players here on the boards, and I think that will go a long way to establishing a baseline connection which we can leverage to have these harder conversations in a healthy and productive way.

Honestly, that sort of thing doesn't interest me at all. I kinda get irrationally angry when I see most of the posts in the redtracker are things like 'WHAT'S YOURE FAVORITE COLOR!?' I understand that Riot wants to communicate with their fanbase as people, and I'm glad they do it, but I don't want to deal with it.

That was a giant wall of text, but I hope it was helpful in some way. I don't think there's much more I can add on this topic, so I'm going to hop out of this topic. Also, I spent so long on this that I forgot to eat dinner, so I need to find some food... But hey, if anybody takes anything positive away from this post, then it was totally worth. =)

It's always a pleasure chatting with you all. You can be sure that I'll keep looking out for more places to jump in and talk.

I'll take Riot communication on this stuff whereever I can get it, don't worry. Hope you enjoyed your dinner!

Starlighte5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=00040001000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-18T07:45:12.707+0000) And lastly, to one of your latter points, this isn't about "selling you something". The story you get with new releases is a culmination of a lot of work from the very beginning to make a character you'll (hopefully) love.

Except, that's how it is perceived by the playerbase when lore is ONLY released in CONJUNCTION with champion launches. There is no periodical, non-linked lore that has been released in.... well... not since I can remember, and that extends well past the retcon.

So, though you may believe that Riot doesn't release lore only to try and "sell us something" that belief is irrelevant, if in fact the playerbase perceives Narrative's modus operandi as only releasing lore during champ releases (an subsequently, never advancing plotlines... Isn't this why champions like Trundle were retconned, because stories couldn't be written with them? But, stories aren't being written or told with any champion beyond their release debut...)

CupcakeTrap12 votes

This structural perspective is quite enlightening. Thank you.

And now I'm going to say what I always say: when it comes to rewrites and retcons of major characters and settings, I think it's crucial that Rioters (Narrative or otherwise) come out for some meaningful discussion, early enough in the process that what we say to each other can possibly make some kind of difference.

Some Reds have been remarking about how they feel "attacked", or that "the forums hate us". Well, as is so often the case in these unfortunate situations, I think both sides are feeling defensive. From the community perspective, these "shock reveals" of rewrites and retcons have us pretty anxious. I don't know if I'm going to log in tomorrow and find out that Ionia is now a floating island that nobody in Valoran has ever heard of, or that Piltover and Demacia are at war, or that Zaun is a suburb of Piltover, or that Morgana is now from Shurima.

When we're talking about brand new characters or settings, or even about new material that's "backwards compatible" with the established lore, I think shock reveals are much more appropriate. I still think that some community discussion is likely to be appreciated and enriching, but sure, those are "blank slate" scenarios where I can see a reasonable person deciding that a "SURPRISE!!!!!!!" reveal is the right way to go. But when you're rewriting huge pieces of a living story-verse, I think that's a really dangerous modus operandi to adopt.

Starlighte7 votes

{quoted}

As others already know, I'm not on the lore or narrative team - but I am nosy and ask questions about it when I can. Hope I qualify for the 'any Rioter' requirement for the thread!

The answer to "Are things progressing?" is a solid YES.

Now, to give what little else I know (and it is very little - I'm sorry).
The tl;dr is - Stuff is being worked on, think in terms of months, stay suspicious!

The tech issues - those are the ones with probably the clearest timeline that I've found. No, I can't tell you what's involved or when, but it's not just a lore issue - it affects a few other areas too. Which (cynically?) is probably why it has a fire under it to hurry up. Think in terms of less than a year, more than a month - but as with all things, that is a development best guess and could turn into 'never'. This one is at least on the good side of likely.

Lores - This one is harder to talk about, even than the vague stuff above. They write them (and I know a writer who seems a bit sad that their character story hasn't got to you guys yet) but there have been shifts in focuses for the team. Might be due to the fallout from the retcon, might be due to changes in leadership. Might be for other reasons that I don't even have awareness of! I heard some optimistic news recently that would answer this question soundly, but again - it's several months out AT THE EARLIEST. That particular news may turn into 'never' but realize that I don't mean lores in general. Like - I could say that "burger = never" but you'd still get food at some point, just not that particular burger. Man, I hope I don't get fired for this burger analogy.

Real talk then, if this is the sort of timetable we should be expecting from Narrative:

Why was the retcon done, without ANYTHING to back it up? Why is Narrative not fielding these questions, don't they want to improve communication and build up that trust they've claimed they wanted to earn? Excuse me ahead of time because there is no polite way to do this, why the FUCK is it taking this long to produce content? Where is the periodical story releases that Narrative said that they plan on coming back to?

Where is Narrative? And why are they not explaining their own CF?

Bioluminescence, it's great that you're here so don't get me wrong. But the information you just dropped on us, "greater than a month but less than a year" that.... That is a nuke you just dropped, and nobody is around in their radiation gear. Not the community, not Narrative, not even the rest of Riot. Just you.

This kind of policy, of letting people like you tank the flak for Narrative's mistakes, is bullshit. Anything less than Narrative showing up and actually following through on their promises of communication, and some legitimate show of "community feedback DOES matter" is unacceptable for a company that claims to be the most player focused company in the industry.

As it stands, Narrative is a perfect example of why the previous statement, is false.

RiotRiotJaredan10 votes

The rest of the world has been something in process and exploration for a while. The announcement was done at the time it was because players were noticing things when we left doors open in content for what we were working on. We wanted to let you know this, and wanted to be able to communicate as soon as we could, which is why the original post by Tommy Gnox (which was actually by many people across Riot) attempted to make it clear that things are WIP, but it's a direction we are committed to.

It was either communicate before we had a full raft of content set up, or wait until it was ready (and that would have meant a longer period of silence, which we wanted to avoid).

By the way, for clarity: When I say "we" in these things, I'm talking about Riot, not just Narrative alone. We don't work that way.

In regard to Narrative answering the questions, I'm sorry, it's taken me a day to get to the boards due to being a bit swamped at the mo for reasons I can't wait to share with you. I was hoping to respond last night, but it wasn't possible.

The reason it's taking this long to produce content, outside of that produced around Champion releases and other products, is because we are exploring a variety of ways to tell story, developing new processes and product teams to deliver it, evaluating prioritization across Riot, restructuring and evolving Narrative as a discipline (as Bioluminescence stated, and as I have elsewhere, Narrative is a group that works on a number of different product teams in Riot), all in order to deliver higher quality than we have before.

While that is ongoing, we are still delivering new content such as Harrowing, Sion, Rek'Sai, Bard, etc.

The periodical story releases hit a roadblock in the initial tech issue problem (we're currently reviewing a solution), and other issues that arose due to prioritization, staff availability, and things being worked on by a number of teams that I can't go into out of respect for their process.

No slight on Bio at all (she, as I've stated elsewhere, is awesome), but some of her statements of what "might" be the reasons behind certain things are not accurate. Fallout from the retcon is not a reason as the process and goals behind it are unchanged. There has been a change in leadership on Narrative, but the overall goals for Riot have not changed in that time.

One of the reasons for a delay in the replacements for current bios, and the more extended stories from them (aside from the completed ones we haven't been able to release yet, such as Amumu) is partly that we have been reading your feedback and we're working on a format that will give more details than the current snapshot character intros, while still leaving room for us to explore the Champions in stories as they happen in a changing world. And yes, your feedback does matter.

I'm not sure what Bio's estimates pertain to specifically, we'll make sure to chat about it (there are several things in motion that may or may not hit the timeline she outlined), but it is likely you will see at least some of the stories we have worked on sooner rather than later. I know that sounds the wishy-est of washy, but after expecting to be able to release a few stories within a few days before, then things having to be delayed due to further tech issues, I have to be a bit cagey.

Frankly, I hate being cagey. I'm not that type of bloke, but it's a truth of what I have to do and how I am able to communicate on the boards. I do speak for Narrative, but I cannot divulge many of the things that we are working on, particularly as they are inextricably part of teams that include artists, producers, engineers, game designers, visual designers etc. etc. that are working hard to deliver content planned out across 2015 and beyond.

I spend much of my posts here to say that things are being worked on, that there are issues, that we are working at problems, and I know it is tiring to many of the players who frequent the boards to hear. It isn't satisfying as you want the evidence, because you've had similar words delivered for a very long time, and you're still waiting for results.

I've spent the last couple of days in discussion with a variety of Rioters about moving forward and creating pipelines to allow for sustainable, high quality stories. There is absolutely the will and desire to make this happen across many teams and disciplines, but there is a lot of work to be done.

Though it is not satisfying, and I understand the weight of the pinch of salt my words will be taken with, we are working to meet the needs that have been identified here on the boards. We can't answer everything exactly in the way it's wanted (we are not planning to undo the changes we have made to the story world, for example), but we are striving to deliver story in a way that is satisfying and sustained.

Starlighte8 votes

{quoted}

~snip

6 months since the retcon. 24 months since any meaningful dialogue was had with Narrative.

I get that restructuring is difficult and you guys have had change in leadership several times over, but come on... You can't really expect us to believe that stuff moves this slow at Riot. Hell, a full champion from start to finish takes less time than pushing out full bios, deciding on new avenues for lore, coming up with a plan for periodical lore releases that AREN'T tied to champion releases (as your point of Harrowing, Rek'sai, Braum etc. are all tied to content being released to be sold.)

Jaredan I respect you for actually showing up and not just avoiding shitty tough questions like these but shit... I want to see something that earns the trust back that has been destroyed over the past two years, and this isn't really cutting it.

I know you guys at Riot absolutely loathe timelines, you loathe talking about upcoming content (Hello Jax, Morgana, Kayle, Fid, how are you doing now that the IoW is no longer a thing? What is your story now? What makes you, you?) but you may be verbalizing with the community, but that isn't the same as communicating or taking feedback. The community wants input, legitimate dialogues with you and the teams about what to do going forward with characters that we care about. I'm a dedicated Morgana main. Honestly, I probably have over a thousand games on her and her lore is fantastic to me. But how am I supposed to trust you guys on reworking her lore, when in the past two years you (Narrative in general) have given me no reason to trust in your skills of maintaining a character's core traits?

Unless we're talking about it, and feel like we have a part to play in shaping the story going forward, communication is never going to improve. You need to impact the feedback loop, and this is the right way to go about it. Fuck the wishy-washy timelines. People get that, shit comes up and you don't want to get burned. But please, for the love of whatever you hold dear (as many of us hold some of these champions dear) do NOT continue with the modum operandi of "Surprise>Player's Connections To Champions" because that is where you will lose trust across the board with any change you make going forward with this retcon.

You've made it clear. The retcon is final, and no amount of kicking and screaming will change it. That doesn't mean you need to go through and change the characters we know and love to "surprise" us with their re-imagining.

RiotRiotJaredan5 votes

What are the core aspects of Morgana that you find enthralling?

Starlighte9 votes

{quoted}

What are the core aspects of Morgana that you find enthralling?

See... I WANT to engage. I WANT to dive into this, but I've seen this conversation start so many times, with no real fruition.

And I'll be the first to admit that, it's probably because we aren't privy to every step you guys take while world-building.

But there's the catch! We don't know, and you (legally) can't tell us. And that's a bridge that we need to cross, together, and with some humility as to where the other is coming from. I get that NDA's are important for a vast number of reasons, but somebody needs to get the A-OK to disclose some of the stuff that's going on behind the scenes. What regions are being crafted? What champions are on the short list for new lore to be written about new events, or to rewrite old events that have crashed since the retcon.

We're not asking for the next event. We're not asking you to spoil new champ releases. What we're asking, nay, begging, is that you let us know when you're going to start working on the Jax's and Morgana's of our shared world, so that we can stop you from making the next Trundle. So that we can show and tell you what makes us so passionate about the champion, so we can tell you the new Ahri art isn't foxy enough, so we can tell you that Sion is fucking awesome, he looks like a supreme badass keep going this direction, that we can tell you that the Xerath rewrite feels flat and like he is now a trope.

I don't want lores to be crowd-sourced, but let's be honest. The rewrites to fix up the retcon... Those aren't for new players. They aren't for the cash-cows that don't care about the backstory and only play the game for the game. Those stories, they're meant for us. The people attached to our characters, who want there story to CONTINUE. To work towards resolution, even if you don't want them to find it. We don't want to feel like the game is episodic, and we'll never get the next episode (thanks Zero Punctuation for putting this in my head today...)

But I'll bite. I'll bite in my next response about what makes Morgana, Morgana.

Because at the end of the day, no matter how little trust I have in you Jaredan, or Narrative as a whole, or maybe even Riot. I WANT you to succeed, and I'm not about to spite you the tools, or the feedback, to help you shape the game in a way that would win that trust back, even if just for me. Because that... That is insane.

RiotRiotJaredan10 votes

I can give you a direct answer to your question on regions: We are working on all of them. We've started to sprinkle a little of the work done so far in some releases (the artifact maps for the Shuriman Empire and Bilgewater are small examples). The work we are doing in the team known as Foundations is intended to support the efforts of product teams across Riot. Narrative works on Foundations (among other discipline representatives), as well as other teams that are creating various products that will expand the story of Runeterra. The posts that Cupcake Trap has done in order to discuss the core aspects of current regions are among the posts that have been looked at. We can't always respond to them, but they are being read. All of the cultures and areas of Valoran are being worked on, to some degree, right now. None of them are completely set in stone (it's not a dictatorial team in that way), as individual teams will have the freedom and opportunity to expand upon the work being done. When you say you want to stop us from making the next Trundle, we can't promise that. We might make decisions you will disagree with, but we do want to know your opinions on the champions and the world, and include that in our thinking.

Cuix5 votes

{quoted} When you say you want to stop us from making the next Trundle, we can't promise that.

Why not? What part of Trundle was handled well, and how could that end up valued highly enough to allow that sort of choice to be made again?

RiotRiotJaredan9 votes

I mean I can't promise that we won't make changes that you will disagree with.

TerraRising5 votes

{quoted}

I mean I can't promise that we won't make changes that you will disagree with.

Well, there's a huge difference between "making changes that we'll disagree with" and what that particular team did with Trundle.

There's a huge difference between saying "Well, we believe that Ezreal should have a dualistic nature: Cocky on the outside, embarrassed at the attention on the inside as this makes for a more well rounded champion" than completely destroying an already established character, not providing proper reasoning or context as to why it was done, then getting upset when it's rejected by a wide majority by the fanbase.

Huge difference.

Sneak Dog2 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=36508044#post36508044

Here Runaan explains a lot. Just not why they didn't keep the *entire *character and gave him a new story. It is simply assumed that only elements can be preserved.

TerraRising6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sneak Dog,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=4TK7oKqj,comment-id=00040008000000000000000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-19T13:54:49.937+0000)

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=36508044#post36508044

Here Runaan explains a lot. Just not why they didn't keep the *entire *character and gave him a new story. It is simply assumed that only elements can be preserved.

I do remember this post back in the day (which, back in my day, we called "the past.")

From what I took of it at the time, and still do, an artist at Riot made an "Ice Troll" concept skin and the rest of the team thought "This should be Trundle" and snowballed from there. From what I gathered then and since, "Traditional Trundle" was merely a clean up of his original VU work before they went in the new direction and was included as a sort of weak appeasement.

Runaan's explanations were, to be blunt, weak. Any lore connections between the Ice Troll and the Poop Troll story were pretty big stretches, to be nice, almost to the point of being fabrications.

Looking again at the post, I have to laugh at this section...

We explored evolving Trundle into a frost troll as a solution to the problem of his story feeling complete. For example, we tried stories like “ice of Freljord slowed the disease” or “the Ice Witch cured him,” but they felt like Band-Aid solutions to get from Story A to Story B. This would not have been meaningful character development; it would have been an excuse to move the story forward in an inorganic way. A fresh start allowed us to create a strong, compelling, and open-ended story for Trundle.

Sound familiar? Let's make some minor changes...

We explored removing the Institute of War through a major Lore event as a solution to the problem of not being able to explore new stories. For example, we tried stories like "Demacia and Noxus unite to compel the Institute to disband" or "Sabotage from Zaun destroyed the Institute," but they felt like Band-Aid solutions to get from Story A to Story B. This would not have been meaningful world development; it would have been excuse to move the entire lore forward in an inorganic way. A fresh start allows us to create a strong, compelling and open-ended mythology for Runeterra.

Interesting, isn't it? (Probably not, but meh.)

Sneak Dog9 votes

Disagreeing would be fine if I at the very least understood your reasoning for your decision. I don't. My own reasoning tells me Riot should disagree with the change. I've a thread, but I'll happily repeat it in short:

  • New and old Trundle are different characters. They're similar, but not the same. I'm not talking about his appearance or rank, but about his character traits: Old Trundle was embittered and cynical, new Trundle is power-hungry. Old and new Trundle are like Riven and Darius. They're both trolls/noxians, but have entirely different views due to a critical event in their lives.
  • Riot is happy with this replacement. Not with the communication around it, which was flawed in many ways and Riot admitted it to be so, but the end result, the new Trundle, seems to be a good thing in Riots eyes.

This means that Riot would happily change other characters if they think a 'better' character comes out of it. One cannot care too deeply about a character if one knows they can just be removed. A story cannot be engaging if the reader does not care about the characters.

A characters removal logically means character-based stories are no longer engaging.

Now this won't go up all the time, there's stories that are engaging without characters one cares about and I suspect some people happily invest in a character even with the knowledge that this investment could be gone tomorrow. I don't think this is the majority of people though, nor do I think that Riot aims to write stories where the reader doesn't have to care about the characters.

I don't think Riot aims to write stories that aren't engaging. Then why are you happy with removing or changing a character? Worst thing is, I'm fairly certain you could've kept Trundles character intact and had him be an unwilling leader, since he can't really leave his tribe without the IoW around to start anew.

If you want a Rioters response to the removal: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=36508044#post36508044

Runaan has a great post here explaining alot about the creation of the new troll. He also says that they wanted to create greatest frost troll. The post outright states that the goal wasn't to give *Trundle *an entirely new story, but to create a new character merely based on Trundle. But I still have a skin with an outdated VO that'll never get to be in any of the great stories you'll write in the future that I now cannot invest in.

Chromatic Eagle7 votes

What do you think of when you look at the new Trundle? What is his "core"? Do you feel it's the same core as the old Trundle? If yes, explain what it is, because the fans aren't seeing it. If no, that's why fans don't trust you. You can, have, and will change the core essence of a character, so any feedback we give can be ignored/dismissed/disagreed with. It makes it feel like our feedback is worthless. It makes us worried that our favorite characters will be erased for what you consider to be a better story, with mixed results. With the exception of Sion, and even then people liked his old persona too, most of us seem to dislike these new versions.

CupcakeTrap11 votes

{quoted}

The posts that Cupcake Trap has done in order to discuss the core aspects of current regions are among the posts that have been looked at. We can't always respond to them, but they are being read.

That's interesting. I stopped doing those threads for two main reasons:

(1) I figured nobody at Narrative was actually reading the discussions. (2) I had no clue what was being worked on and what wasn't. What was the point of doing a Bandle City thread only to log in the next day and find out that, while i was working on Bandle City, Ionia got rewritten? It felt very "shot in the dark", and "have discussions about all factions at once" seemed like a drastically greater time commitment than I could manage.

Does that second point make sense? It's a bit early in the morning for me right now. Basically, my goal is to do what I can to allow for some real back-and-forth discussion on parts of the lore that Narrative is planning to expand, or (especially) to rewrite. Starting threads like those feels very shot-in-the-dark, because I don't know which factions (if any) are going to be getting major story updates soon, nor which are going to be most drastically changed.

I'm not saying that discussion is only helpful where big changes are happening, but that's where it's most urgently needed. If you guys want to put out a bunch of Demacian stories that basically fit with the established vision of Demacia, some discussion would probably still be appropriate, but it's not the worst thing in the world if the community didn't have any input. Maybe the community wanted more about knights fighting dragons, and instead got more about paladins fighting necromancers; that's just not as serious a problem as would be, e.g., "community wanted Demacians to be mostly "Good", but now they're grimdark fascists from Game of Thrones".

{quoted}

All of the cultures and areas of Valoran are being worked on, to some degree, right now. None of them are completely set in stone (it's not a dictatorial team in that way), as individual teams will have the freedom and opportunity to expand upon the work being done.

Well, "to some degree". But I think it would be helpful to get some clue as to which settings are being slated for the most drastic changes, if any.

If Narrative really does look at such threads, I wouldn't be averse to creating a thread for each major city state. It's not too tall of an order. But I'd rather start with whatever factions are potentially going to be having a lot of work done in the near future.

I am, at least, glad to hear that no major rewrites are currently locked in. I really, really encourage you guys to have at least one or two serious discussions with the community about each setting before locking in any big rewrites.

{quoted}

When you say you want to stop us from making the next Trundle, we can't promise that. We might make decisions you will disagree with, but we do want to know your opinions on the champions and the world, and include that in our thinking.

Respectfully, I don't think that's what "the next Trundle" means. It wasn't so much that people didn't like the new Trundle lore: it was that (people felt that) Trundle was erased and replaced with a brand new character who shared the same name and some visual traits. I was never that into Trundle, so I'm not in a good position to talk about the specifics there, but that's what "Trundle'ing" means: a retcon/rewrite so profound as to annihilate a character. I imagine it's how I'd feel if I came by one day and found out that Veigar's new backstory had him as Teemo's best friend, a cheerful but clumsy yordle with a big hat who's shy about anyone seeing his face and heroically battles Noxians for the good of Bandle City. Maybe that new character would be awesome, but I'd still be really upset that you retconned Old Veigar so completely.

Starlighte13 votes

{quoted}

What are the core aspects of Morgana that you find enthralling?

Morgana as a character, unlike champions like Gnar or Rek'sai (to our knowledge) does not exist in a vacuum. She and Kayle are intrinsically linked, in a way that goes beyond the literal aspects of their relation.

Morgana and Kayle are two sides of the same coin. Both champions are gray (or grey if you prefer) and both can be considered evil or good depending on what side you stand.

Morgana fights for freedom, and she does so by using magics that taint her soul. She is willing to be a martyr for her cause, and will do anything to usurp (as I think it is literally quoted in her lore) "Kayle's brand of tyranny".

Kayle, is trying to bring peace to a divided world. The only way she knows how to bring that peace, is through an iron clad rule that smashes expression and freedoms. "The lives of the many, outweigh the lives of the few." She is willing to go to any lengths to unite her people, even if it means donning a mask to hide her tears as she fights her sister.

And this is the dichotomy. This is the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the sisters. There is no "right" side (unless you WANT it to be) Morgana is willing to do whatever it takes so that everyone may live in the happiness they choose. Whereas Kayle, will do whatever it takes so that everyone may live in the happiness she deems fit.

Morgana gave up her wings, her birthright, her sister, her soul, to protect her people from a perceived evil. And Kayle's sacrifices are on par, for they both believe themselves to be fighting the true evil of their world.

But with the retcon, there is no reason for Morgana to come to Runeterra. There is no reason for Kayle to come and fight her here, rather than wait for her to return to their world where Kayle's forces give her an edge. The gaps left by this retcon hurt in this story. It doesn't disrupt the characters themselves or their dichotomy, but it hurts their reasons for being in Runeterra.

And I cannot express enough but please, do NOT link them to Runeterra just because you can. Don't go the Trundle/Gragas-->Freljord route. Give them their world, even if you're not willing to explore it. Even if you want their actions to be on the plane of Runeterra, don't make them denizens of it.

At the end of the day, Morgana and Kayle are interchangeable. And that... That is what makes them special to me. No matter how you squint while looking, they are the same coin.

RiotRiotJaredan6 votes

I'm not saying that this is something we're working on (we're not right now, we've had some preliminary discussions on the subject of Kayle and Morgana, but not necessarily relating to what I'm about to ask), I'm just interested in your view on this aspect: if the duality and dichotomy of Kayle and Morgana's relationship was kept intact, but not presented through the lens of an alien world, but instead a part of Runeterra (perhaps not even an area explored previously—again, this is purely hypothesis, not an avenue being explored internally) would that be critically divergent from those characters as you already know them?

I found it interesting that you pointed out the need to make them not Runeterran. I'm not going to go into the specifics on Trundle and Gragas (personally, I think Gragas would get serious frostbite of the nipple if he spent all of his time in the Freljord), but let's not equate one set of reasoning for tying one champion to a specific location to a completely different example.

The setting for a story will usually reflect, contrast or emphasize the key themes and conflicts being explored by the main characters in the story. If there was a place in Runeterra that would also do that for Kayle and Morgana, would you find that detail, of them no longer being alien, intrinsically unacceptable?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your appreciation of that aspect of the characters.

And by the way, I find the "two sides of the same coin" fascinating about them too, particularly in regard to their willingness to sacrifice and the different kind of cost it incurs for them both.

EvilMerodach7 votes

Just adding my $0.02. I'd pretty pretty heavily disappointed if Kayle/Morg were not 'from another world.' They don't fit in Runeterra, and they shouldn't be forced to fit in either. They're angels and devils come to play in 'our' world, and should never be made any less.

Chromatic Eagle6 votes

Some of us like the alien aspect of characters. You do too, or else we wouldn't have the Voidborn or creatures like Bard. We like the angel vs. demon/dark angel theme of theme, and don't see how or why they would be born on Runeterra. We like that their race is off-world. Ask yourselves this, does tying them to Runeterra add anything to the story, or are you doing so just because you can? We can see them living in Noxus and Demacia learning about the world and their cultures, but what depth do you get from them being born there?

Cuix6 votes

{quoted} The reason it's taking this long to produce content, outside of that produced around Champion releases and other products, is because we are exploring a variety of ways to tell story[...]

I don't know what mediums and methods exist which could not be considered in the years between JoJ's deletion and now. Any insight you can give us?

developing new processes and product teams to deliver it

What does this even mean?

evaluating prioritization across Riot, restructuring and evolving Narrative as a discipline (as Bioluminescence stated, and as I have elsewhere, Narrative is a group that works on a number of different product teams in Riot)

That is to say, not having people actually consistently dedicated to building lore with the depth, complexity, and usability of old lore except insofar as it ties into champion releases, skins, events, and champion updates. Why is that okay?

all in order to deliver higher quality than we have before.

Shouldn't the quality and success of lore be gauged by the reactions to it and the impact of it? Isn't it clear that old lore had many high quality and highly usable pieces which have been deleted? Why was that choice considered okay? What's even the point of creating content which you consider high quality if half the time you don't ask about what we like, and even when we're asked we're sometimes simply ditched or ignored (TrundleKarmaXerCass yadda yadda)?

You're ignoring the deeper questions and giving answers that we've been hearing for months now.

RiotRiotJaredan8 votes

I don't know what mediums and methods exist which could not be considered in the years between JoJ's deletion and now. Any insight you can give us?

I honestly can't give specifics. I can just say that there are things we are working on that have incredible complexity in regard to research, planning, experimentation and execution that absolutely take a long time.

What does this even mean?

By processes I mean the way in which disciplines and teams work together at Riot, and the way that those teams work to produce the things that we deliver to players.

Product teams at Riot are groups of folks from different disciplines (such as Narrative, Art, Game Design, Engineering, Development Management, etc.) who work together to make a particular product. Champion Team is a product team that creates new Champions, for example.

That is to say, not having people actually consistently dedicated to building lore with the depth, complexity, and usability of old lore except insofar as it ties into champion releases, skins, events, and champion updates. Why is that okay?

I agree with you. We're working on building the fundamentals (such as evolving the Narrative discipline, teams, processes etc.) to do what you are asking for.

Shouldn't the quality and success of lore be gauged by the reactions to it and the impact of it? Isn't it clear that old lore had many high quality and highly usable pieces which have been deleted? Why was that choice considered okay? What's even the point of creating content which you consider high quality if half the time you don't ask about what we like, and even when we're asked we're sometimes simply ditched or ignored (TrundleKarmaXerCass yadda yadda)?

We do pay very close attention to the reactions of our players. However, we have to make our own judgments on quality too, particularly before we release it. We create, we evaluate internally, we look at overall success from a variety of perspectives (we do look at player responses, of course), we learn.

It is clear that the old lore had many quality and highly usable pieces, and we'll be including many of them.

Quick question: what is it about Cass that you think has changed to her detriment?

Cuix7 votes

{quoted} I honestly can't give specifics. I can just say that there are things we are working on that have incredible complexity in regard to research, planning, experimentation and execution that absolutely take a long time.

That sounds pretty huge. Y'all have the budget for it, to be sure. I just hope it's truly substantive, rather than the pretty-but-shallow content like Jinx's and Amumu's music videos.

By processes[...] asking for.

Cool. Lots of insight here and it sounds like good stuff. This is highly encouraging.

It is clear that the old lore had many quality and highly usable pieces, and we'll be including many of them.

That'll be difficult without the IoW, as well as with some other direction decisions I'm seeing (less weirdness in favor of more dark/spook, less connectivity in favor of firmer boundaries, less breadth in favor of a harder Runeterran focus). I'm skeptical.

Quick question: what is it about Cass that you think has changed to her detriment?

In terms of lore? Not a ton. I mean, she came across as way too blunt, and the fact that she went from "overconfident seductress" to "genre-blind backstabber" isn't insignificant, but a lot of her core can still work (Du Coteau, subtle, greedy). The main problem is that a lot of old lore is in a canonical grey spot, so I'm not sure if she still has her background of being a political power player in contrast to her sister's tomboyish adventuring. I assume she does, and it just needs to be put back in the spotlight for her instead of "here's this one stupid thing she did now she's Medusa".

Her kit rework was impressively bad, though. We said that her E was the least satisfying and thematic part of her kit, and then it got emphasized. We said that her manipulative and subtle nature should be more emphasized, and she went from a long-range DoT mage to a mid-range skirmish spamcaster. We said that she'd get raw number buffs until she was OP and that then there would be no further changes made, and that's exactly what happened. We said her kit changes wouldn't stop her from being a lane bully unless she was simply impotent in lane, and that also turned out to be totally true.

CONTRAST THIS WITH XERATH. Xelnath came in and chatted with us about what we thought was cool about him, and the community shouted "long range artillery!" and "low mobility siege mage!" Then Xelnath tossed a few ideas around with us and we got hyped as heckarooni. Now Xerath is in a really healthy place, with a super coherent identity and is usable with clear strengths and weaknesses. That was one of the best reworks we've ever seen, easily.

RiotRiotJaredan15 votes

I can't respond with detail mainly as I'm beginning to drool (bloody hell it's ugly), but your supposition that she hasn't changed much is absolutely correct. When she decided it was time to stab a back, it was a moment of her out of her comfort zone, not an example of a new outlook on life.

You're also right that we need to show her being the charmer she once was (and show how her change has dramatically effected her), but I just wanted to make the assurance that she's still Cass. I love your view on her relationship with Kat too, it speaks a lot of their relationship as well as how it is with their father.

Right, I need to fall over in the general direction of a bed. Cheers for the response.

Xonra5 votes

{quoted}

We do pay very close attention to the reactions of our players. However, we have to make our own judgments on quality too, particularly before we release it. We create, we evaluate internally, we look at overall success from a variety of perspectives (we do look at player responses, of course), we learn.

I've been here since 2010, and I can say, from the direction the lore (not speaking to anything else as far as gameplay decisions, visuals , tech, none of that, only "lore" and story) has gone in, I'm very saddened. It seems clear, at least to those passionate enough to speak up about it, that the direction is disliked far more than appreciated, so when you say you listen, but do it your way (how else should this be interpreted?), it frustrates people.

You ask questions, want feedback, then choose to ignore said feedback and go with what you want anyways. It may not be the intent, and I apologize if my tone is frustration over understanding (as Ive said, I've been here for a while, so I've seen/heard it all from you guys), but a lot of what we are told is "we get it, you want X, but we are Riot so we are giving you Y. We understand you prefer X, and don't like Y, but you are getting Y". This is a very frustrating thing to see/hear/read, because you ask for feedback, but it is completely ignored (I could give very clear and well thought out examples, but that would be a wall of text no one wants to read), and if it isn't ignored, then it is most assuredly disregarded at the very least.

It is starting to feel like you guys (I'm again, specifically pointing this comment at the narrative/lore/whatever you want to call it team), tend to take in, then simply give back what you guys want out of the story. No one on that team can believe what you are giving is fully okay, especially when you make comments like us not being able to stop you from making another Trundle, that is bad, that is wrong, and that is why people turn from trying to have a civil discussion to angry. You can't go from saying you want feedback, then telling us that we can't stop you from making another champion into one of the most hated (yes I used hate, it is a strong word for a strong feeling) champion lore reworks we have been given.

At the end of the day, you are the guys writing the lore now, and you will do with it what you will, but it is becoming a trend that players don't trust your vision, especially when it is clear we don't like it (I say we, because there is a small percentage that are vocal that agree with the changes), and ask yourself this honest question;* shouldn't us, the players, liking the end result be more important than YOU liking the end result?*

OJ1916 votes

{quoted}

It was either communicate before we had a full raft of content set up, or wait until it was ready (and that would have meant a longer period of silence, which we wanted to avoid).

You can feel free to communicate before you have a full raft of content set up, but instead of merely communicating you went ahead and released your unfinished bug ridden (lol "tech issues") retcon before it was even 1/4 ready.

Releasing the retcon without having all the replacement content ready and tech issues ironed out was foolhardy, irresponsible, and down right rude to lore fans.

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