STOP ARBITRARILY FIXING THINGS THAT AREN'T BROKEN. JUST... STOP

Yung Daemon Sand·Aug 7, 2018·3 votes·2,454 views

Champion Roadmap: August 2018 - Nexus

Look, there have been way too many reworks recently that don't need to happen, or at least don't need to happen to the extent that they are. For example, reworking Aatrox from the ground up didn't seem necessary. Also, when you do that it just feels like you're shitting on the efforts of the people who initially created the champ. I think a big problem with this game right now is... overproduction. Like one of my favorite things about League is how dynamic it is, but Riot is making it impossible to keep up with itself. I read in the new Champion Roadmap that they're giving Nunu more of a whimsical feel. Why? Who wanted that? And how could it possibly be necessary? Did you ask players at all, Riot? And who said that Kayle's abilities need to be reworked at all. WHAT WAS THE CRITERIA YOU USED WHEN DECIDING TO DO THESE THINGS. It's like when they turned Varus into a douchebag without telling anyone. Honestly, Riot should just stop making new champs altogether, for at least a full season. How about fixing the things that need to be fixed, that everyone knows need to be fixed, instead of just adding more variables to the equation through new champs and reworks, forcing everything to go farther off course than it already has been for some time now.

EDIT: For anyone who says Kayle is old and unpopular, she's been S-tier in 3s for years, and quite popular there. I understand that the Treeline community is a fraction of the overall league population but to call Kayle archaic or weak is a stretch.

EDIT: People still don't understand the message of this post. I'm not saying that there's an inherent problem with reworks. My MAIN point is that, in League's current situation, there are WAY BIGGER PROBLEMS to focus on than changing champs that don't NEED to be changed. If Zoe was fine, and damage wasn't an issue, and turrets weren't a joke, and on and on and on, THEN sure, maybe let's see what's good with a Nunu rework. And then the champs that they add and the reworks they create just EXACERBATE the problems that they haven't dealt with.

EDIT: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/FPZwWoeG-know-what-think-ive-had-enough-for-this-season ^^^

For anyone who still doesn't understand my point, click on that link and look at all the problems being discussed and hopefully you'll have a better understanding of what I'm trying to say. It isn't the time for reworks. It's just not.

40 Comments

Valor BotAug 7, 20189 votes

I read in the new Champion Roadmap that they're giving Nunu more of a whimsical feel. Why? Who wanted that? And how could it possibly be necessary? Did you ask players at all, Riot?

Actually, Riot sends out a ton of player surveys semi-annually asking about potential rework candidates, and Nunu was one of the most highly-requested champions for a full rework.

AMADEUSdotEXEAug 7, 20181 votes

I got one about azir, xerath, and velkoz

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

Ok this is a fair point which I have no response to, except that I instinctively have to question the legitimacy of these surveys- also they don't always seek player input, e.g. Varus update that literally happened overnight

6FlagsFunnelCakeAug 7, 20181 votes

On top of that...what else do you honestly want Nunu to be. A fucking edgy monster boy?

Yung Daemon SandAug 8, 20181 votes

I want him to be WHAT HE IS.

OleandervineAug 7, 20186 votes

Kayle is garbage tier, and her model is hideous. Her kit is also clunky as hell. She desperately needs a VGU. Nunu, likewise is garbage tier, and his model is ugly. His kit also is damn near irrelevant in the modern game, because he can't do much of anything except eat objectives and sometimes catch unsuspecting people in his ult. He also desperately needs a VGU.

You may like playing clunky, garbage tier champions, but most people do not. I for one look forward to a whimsical Nunu, and I definitely look forward to a Kayle who isn't so damn awkward to use. I also think most people share these sentiments, so you are definitely in the minority here. People like modern, new looking things, so clinging to these archaic champions like you're drowning and they're the only floating object around is futile, because they will eventually sink and be forgotten if they are not updated.

dimolishAug 7, 20181 votes

you are right [slayer-jinx-catface]

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

Wtf how is Kayle clunky or awkward, you just don't know how to play her. Also, if you read the post I made clear that I have NO problem with visual updates whatsoever. ALSO, why are you acting like all reworks are good. My point is that there's no benefit in constantly adding new shit that comes with new problems when you haven't fixed the problems that came with the new shit you added earlier that isn't new anymore. If you can't identify with that sentiment on some level you're not being honest.

OleandervineAug 7, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yung Daemon Sand,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=1XiIwwIb,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2018-08-07T20:37:32.577+0000)

Wtf how is Kayle clunky or awkward, you just don't know how to play her. Also, if you read the post I made clear that I have NO problem with visual updates whatsoever. ALSO, why are you acting like all reworks are good. My point is that there's no benefit in constantly adding new shit that comes with new problems when you haven't fixed the problems that came with the new shit you added earlier that isn't new anymore. If you can't identify with that sentiment on some level you're not being honest.

If you don't update old things in an evolving game, they die and wither and become irrelevant. You may not agree with it, but all old things MUST be updated to stay viable. And how is Kayle NOT clunky and awkward? You have to continually press E to stay ranged or you start going into melee range, and her spells are mostly basic "I healed you" and "I damaged you" with a speed up and slow attached. Her kit is about the furthest thing from being fluid and seamless and represents an extremely basic kit design. As for VGUs, you may not agree, but all of them have been good because they've brought the champion into the modern age and made them look loads better. Only if you're hopelessly and illogically attached to their outdated and obsolete kits will you not be able to see how they've been improved, but they've all improved when they've gotten VGUs. Sure, some still need some work, but on the whole, they've not made the champions worse than they were before their VGU.

ΗuaweiAug 7, 20183 votes

{quoted}

If you don't update old things in an evolving game, they die and wither and become irrelevant. You may not agree with it, but all old things MUST be updated to stay viable. And how is Kayle NOT clunky and awkward? You have to continually press E to stay ranged or you start going into melee range, and her spells are mostly basic "I healed you" and "I damaged you" with a speed up and slow attached. Her kit is about the furthest thing from being fluid and seamless and represents an extremely basic kit design. As for VGUs, you may not agree, but all of them have been good because they've brought the champion into the modern age and made them look loads better. Only if you're hopelessly and illogically attached to their outdated and obsolete kits will you not be able to see how they've been improved, but they've all improved when they've gotten VGUs. Sure, some still need some work, but on the whole, they've not made the champions worse than they were before their VGU.

Apparently that Korean guy that was using Atrox didn't want him to change. I liked to play old GP and i haven't touched him since his rework.

Hell, Janna is the same from when she was released 8 years ago and she is one of the most succesful champions ever released in league used consistently in both pro play and SoloQ

Does she need a rework because it's been 8 years? No, no and no.

This argument is irrelevant. Don't fix what's not broken just make a damn new champ with the skills the rework will have or a visual update.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

THANK YOU- like I didn't think this would be this contentious an idea at all

Valaran NaraAug 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yung Daemon Sand,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=1XiIwwIb,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T21:55:50.436+0000)

THANK YOU- like I didn't think this would be this contentious an idea at all

I think it became contentious based on how you said it.

You acting enraged gave people insensitive to act like they had the moral high ground.

With that being said, I think the change is happening based on the fact that, Nunu and Irelia have kits and designs to where, if they were suggested now for new champs, it would get laughed at. Like, "Wow, I like the idea" but the execution would be so vastly different that we would not see a hint of that kind of model or whatnot.

And with the game constantly updating, some things either won't get changed purely to give it a staple of "this is just how it is" or it will get a random pass that may get overlooked.

You mentioned how turrets need to be fixed. 1.) That's a different team and department. You're complaining about game health and balance in a board about art and stories.

2.) Riot took a pass at turrets and how they operate a few seasons ago. Remember how inhib turrets use to hit you with a constant laser beam? Yeah...that didn't last long. Or what about the fact that they changed the cold to where, now the turrets attack you if you damage it's ally champion...period. Before both of you have to be under turret. Now it only requires you to be there.

Now, I won't say your opinion overall is wrong or anything because if a person enjoys something, it sucks seeing it change to what some may see as for the worse. Unfortunately, your complaint is aimed towards a team that's not involved with coding the actual game scripts.

Post this in either Gameplay or General Discussion, and the responses you get will more likely work out in your favor. At least there, it won't be rebuked by a groupthink bias of "improve the story" as opposed to "improve the game"

SithesisLordAug 7, 20182 votes

Does she need a rework because it's been 8 years? No, no and no.

Yes, yes and yes.

The design philosophies of 2009 Riot aren´t the same as the ones of 2018 Riot. Champions need to be updated as design philosophies change.

10 years from now, if League is still active, who knows, we may well be seeing another Poppy rework, another Irelia rework, etc. Or heck, let´s go the extra mile. Another lore retcon.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20182 votes

Yes, yes and yes.

Ok, I'm glad you said this, because I wanna know your answer to this question based on what you just said. If a champ is one of the oldest champs, and is consistently used still in all elos, how do you justify saying that they should be reworked outside of the visual realm? They're functioning as well as they can, and a rework simply risks changing that.

The design philosophies of 2009 Riot aren´t the same as the ones of 2018 Riot. Champions need to be updated as design philosophies change.

Because we all know that Riot's philosophies only improve as time goes on, and they never make mistakes [zombie-brand-mindblown]

You're literally one of the people I'm trying to address in this post. You think that changing and updating things about league inherently leads to improvement, and it DOESN'T.

GreenLoreAug 8, 20181 votes

But these kits ARE broken.

Just because you like the broken kit doesn't make it any less broken.

I mean have you seen how fast Aatrox went from garbage-tier to top tier with just a few buffs?It just shows how inherently unbalanced his kit is.

Also you'll have to keep in mind that champs with clunky kits will always affect the game for everyone(new players,aram players and those who have to play alongside/with these champs)

Yung Daemon SandAug 8, 20182 votes

I mean have you seen how fast Aatrox went from garbage-tier to top tier with just a few buffs?It just shows how inherently unbalanced his kit is.

By that logic, how about Yas with the 2 Passives? The Zoe who can end ya life while missing all her skillshots? My point can't truly be this difficult to understand.

GreenLoreAug 8, 20181 votes

Yasuo and Zoe do have their weaknesses and can be outplayed as most of their skills are skillshots,while Aatrox was auto-attack reliant,which meant that aatrox will try to stick to you and just AA you to death and you can't really dodge autoattacks of a fighter jumps into his face.

They do not fluctuate that much in terms of balance as aatrox(and tbh,2 passives isn't really anything new anymore,a lot of champions have 2 passives).

dimolishAug 7, 20182 votes

the game is evolving all the time if you dont update things the game wont be played,the player base will just get bored,stop being salty man.

dimolishAug 7, 20183 votes

Bro Kayle needs a rework and so does Nunu , close to no one plays them anymore.Maybe you played them and that's why you are salty,but you need to understand that the game is evolving,new champs,new reworks and the old champs need to be at the level quality that the others are at. [vlad-salute]

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

you need to understand that the game is evolving.

No, I don't. Actually made that clear in the post.

old champs need to be at the level quality that the others are at.

The others like Zoe, who people have been complaining about since her drop? Or Pyke the "Support"? Or the countless reworks that people have been bitching about literally since they happened? And this is my point, which most of you seem to be missing: Shouldn't we deal with Zoe's existence, Yasuo's existence, the nonsensical level of damage in Summoner's Rift, the relative weakness of tanks, and the absolute hilarity that is towers to name just a few issues before we focus on any other reworks? It really doesn't feel like my point is insane.

DearPearAug 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yung Daemon Sand,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=1XiIwwIb,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-08-07T20:50:47.481+0000)

No, I don't. Actually made that clear in the post.

You sound like a grandpa.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

Lol ok, because I started a sentence with actually? Get the hell off my post you churl, nvm the fact that you contributed no useful information to the convo whatsoever

DearPearAug 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yung Daemon Sand,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=1XiIwwIb,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T21:05:17.844+0000)

Lol ok, because I started a sentence with actually?

Because you're afraid of change. How the heck could you come to the conclusion that it had anything to do with the word "actually"?

dimolishAug 7, 20181 votes

listen man you can not be reasoned with,people were salty about Zoe when she came out,now she has been nerfed,no one cares about her,people are salty about yasuo bc they dont know how to play against him.Dont be salty about things that are irrelevant now. The world doesn't revolve around your opinion.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20182 votes

People still talk about Zoe... LITERALLY ALL THE TIME

People still talk about Yas... LITERALLY ALL THE TIME

The world doesn't revolve around my opinion. Hmm... that's true, but a forum post that I created literally does.

dimolishAug 7, 20181 votes

ok man have a nice day, i shouldn't have even commented.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

you too for real, you deadass shouldn't have

ΗuaweiAug 7, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=dame the great,realm=EUNE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=1XiIwwIb,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-08-07T20:12:10.023+0000)

Bro needs a rework and so does , close to no one plays them anymore.Maybe you played them and that's why you are salty,but you need to understand that the game is evolving,new champs,new reworks and the old champs need to be at the level quality that the others are at. [vlad-salute]

Bro, did you consider that a player might have invested thousands of hours into kayle or nunu as they are now and hit master with them?

SithesisLordAug 7, 20183 votes

I´m all up for a Kayle rework, as long as they keep what makes Kayle Kayle.

And since August is the designer, i´m pretty sure that´s a double check.

Lore-wise, however, i´m pretty sure they´re gonna Elise her.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

I don't think they are though, they made it seem like it's gonna be more of an aatrox rework than an akali

SithesisLordAug 7, 20181 votes

Akali changed a lot from her previous iteration.

Hers was anything but a modernization, like WW's.

And they made it seem like they´re keeping her E but probably scraping everything else, which i´m entirely okay with, as long as she has suitable replacement tools to work with.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

Akali did change a lot, but she still has vision obscure and the pounce out of nowhere element. Aatrox on the other hand doesn't feel like old Aatrox at all.

SithesisLordAug 7, 20181 votes

Because old Aatrox was in terms of game health, closer to old Yorick/old Poppy than to old Akali.

Yung Daemon SandAug 7, 20181 votes

I'm not condemning or supporting Aatrox's rework, I'm just saying that Kayle's changes are gonna be fairly large based on what they said

GreenLoreAug 8, 20181 votes

Well because Kayle is currently struggling with a clear gameplay identity. Some play Kayle as a mage,some play her as a support,some play her as a ranged fighter and others just play her as a straight up ap-adc. She kinda excels at nothing in particular,since she does so much at once.

And while so many different playstyles sound cool on paper,they are a nightmare to balance and leave players confused as for what Kayle is even supposed to do.

mrmeddymanAug 8, 20181 votes

I personally think Kayle is boring AF and needs it. Along with Pantheon, Mordekaiser and Nunu she was probably the most requested. Morgana is in a better state but still very simplistic.

Go for Q If Q landed use W If Q did not land never use W because it's a waste of mana Black Shield when people get low

Nothing intrinsically wrong with it but without many wrinkles it leads to a repetitive play cycle. riot said they are going to give her lighter changes and modernization (like Ezreal) because she hasn't aged as badly.

You're getting downvoted to hell because you are pretending to speak for the whole community. I like VGUs. I want more. Kayle was at the top of my list to get one. Citing Balance as a reason for not making more VGUs is dumb. The balance team and the champion design teams are two different teams. One does not take away from the other.

Yung Daemon SandAug 8, 20181 votes

That's not all there is to Kayle and her skill usage. This is why people who don't play champs shouldn't talk about them like they know them. Kayle's W is a waste of mana? It's literally a speed boost. And you don't only use the ult when people are low, at all. ALSO, it isn't necessarily wise to engage with Q as you might need it later when they try to run. So literally everyhting you just said about the champ was wrong.

I'm getting downvoted because people like you literally can't read, not that it matters anyway. How is citing balance as a reason for not making VGU's dumb?? The VGU team does take away from the balance team when they introduce changes in champ style that change the game altogether and force the balance team to successfully put their vision onto the screen. So, the balance team could be left to balance this game, which EVERYONE knows is unbalanced, while the VGU team works on strictly visual updates, instead of VGU putting more and more dishes in the balance teams sink. THIS WAS THE WHOLE POINT OF MY POST. I feel like I made it clear a lot of times that I don't have an inherent beef with VGUs.

mrmeddymanAug 9, 20181 votes

This is why people who can't read shouldn't post topics on the boards

" Morgana is in a better state but still very simplistic. "

Followed by my points about MORGANAs W

ModEvangeleAug 8, 20181 votes

Nami Friendly reminder to please keep things civil in here. Name calling and insulting language is not allowed on Boards at any time. Not going to moderate anything in here but if it continues thread will be looked into further. Thanks.