Boards›Player Behavior

@RIOT GAMES on toxicity and actual solutions.

Zonderic··2 votes·604 views

DISCLAIMER this is going to be a VERY long post. This will have no TL:DR. If you want to debate one of the topics make sure you read at least that portion, each idea will be separated.

Toxicity 1, EGO: The sense of self importance and the main cause of toxicity.

The problem: Do you know why toxicity exists? The main reason toxicity exists is because the human ego requires people to feel like they are above the others they are matched with. They are special their team exists to serve them. Even if you don't consciously think this, it is human nature to view oneself as the center of the universe. When one perceives another as interfering with the perfection that they are ,it will make them angry. They will call them a feeder. They will mock them harass them, and entice others to do so. Others will join in especially if it means they can cast their blame onto that scapegoat. This will cause fighting in the team because both of these people are viewing themselves as the center of the universe. People have to value themselves to go on living so when someone is attacking them verbally, physically, etc they will attempt to preserve their sense of self importance because they must. You might think I'm being extreme, but i am not saying one game of league will cause someone to off themselves, i am saying the desire to preserve the ego will cause people to lash out at perceived threats to it.

Solution: A good solution to preventing team infighting is easy. Increase the tab screen information with objective and turret damage, and gold income data as well as team fight presence data. This will allow people to understand that KDA doesn't mean everything.

For example: Say you have two people we will call the first Alf and Alf has a score of 1 5 3 with 135 CS at the end of the game. The other is Bloo, and blue has a score of 7 0 0 135 CS at the end of the game. Bloo has decided that Alf is a feeder and is calling him both during and after game others have joined in. The ward score has Alf at 23 and Bloo at 9. Alf has been in 3 team fights so far while Bloo has been in one. Alf has helped take herald and 2 dragons while Bloo killed 2 people resulting in his 7th kill and took one turret. Alf has either by himself or with his team taken 4 turrets. Who was more useful? The answer is Alf. Bloo asks for him to be reported for feeding. Everyone agrees. Bloo has been telling him to play safer all game to stop dying so much many times. Alf told him to shut the fuck up and proceeded to mute everyone. Alf is now banned because he was frustrated his team had blamed him for not having an easier game even though he had contributed plenty and more than Bloo and not done god awful.

Alf contributed more to his teams win but because the data on what he contributed is not visible in game everyone just looked at his KDA and chose to pick on him and he lost his temper and that cost him his account. It is human nature to defend the ego because without that your desire to live disappears. This is what causes the MAJORITY of toxicity. People blaming each other. That is why more data is REQUIRED.

Toxicity 2. Trolls, the annoying sadists.

The problem: The next biggest cause is trolls. I am not talking the 0 12 who did their best but is just not good and is dropping elo fast. I'm talking the run it down mid didn't like their support so went top or mid and ruined that lane. The kind that walks into someone whose behind lane and says that person should play safe and then proceeds to push 2-3 waves worth of minions into the enemy turret so they have to either wait 3 waves of farm for the enemy wave to get to them at their turret assuming they don't freeze or risk dying again. (In case you didn't notice i despise this lat type and it will immediately make me toxic for a minimum of three games worth of time.)

Solution: For most types of trolls an easy way to prevent it would be a record button next to mute that has that person recorded for 5 minutes. That video could then instantly be sent to riot for review. Now this will cause mass reports to pile up so the solution to that is also simple. Reinstate the tribunal for this kind of report. Viewing this 5 minute video will give you 100 BE. The video should HAVE to be the active window on your computer to even play otherwise it will auto pause, and there should be random fake videos thrown in too to catch people who are just playing it and walking away only to come back and hit punish. These people after a few times of punishing fake videos should of course be barred from the tribunal for a set period of time and also after repeated offenses receive the punishment the person they tried to punish would have gotten.

Toxicity 3. Afks, i forgot i had work, school, my wife is having a baby.

First off i request you actually read this section since absolutely all of your arguments will be countered by easy solutions including the duo abuse.

The problem: This will cause more rage in the next game than anything else will that carries over. This here is a problem with so many easy solutions that the fact that riot has done less than nothing in 8 years is mindbogglingly pathetic. I am sorry for the insult but it is true that this is just absolutely lazy.

The Solution: Alright this is a multi part solution because there's so many interlocking things, none of which are complicated but they all have to exist to prevent abuse so again read it all.

First off we all know there is about a 3 minute grace period before the system actually flags you. Now, you should not be punished if you afk 1 time in a month. This should reset 31 days after your last afk. This is your my wife is having a baby grace afk. You as the afk will simply lose like you would any other game.

However for more than 1 in a month punishments will be harsher. You on the second offense within a month will lose twice the mmr and twice the ladder points as well as get no EXP. For normals you will get zero EXP. After 5 you will take on your entire teams loss worth of lp and mmr and go down in exp by the amount you would have gained to 0 but no further. In normals go backwards in EXP by the amount you would have gained down to 0.

Now for the rest of the team who has to deal with you having afked if they aren't back in ten minutes you lose nothing. Ten minutes is enough time to detect weather or not this game was already over or not. However if its past 30 minutes then 5 minutes is all it takes. Because the game ends with a single team fight after that point. You leaving has a huge effect.

Now, i know, i know, "But then people will duo and abuse it" That is the absolute EASIEST thing to prevent. Of all the issues that is the only one that takes almost no effort. Simply have a bot detect when 1 person duos and that persons duos constantly afk, regardless of if they are the same person. Swapping friends wont save you. You will share the same punishment as the afks do. If it only happens once in a month you will get the same loss forgiven status as your team. However you share the same punishment after that 1 game. This means you can only abuse the system 12 times in a year and get away with it. 12 games isn't gonna get you anything.

Toxicity 4: I'm having a bad day.

The problem, you are stressed out and just wanted to procrastinate or distract yourself with the grind for levels or ranks or just to have some fun and every little thing the team does wrong is making you lose your mind.

The solution: Simply add an option in the game client and lobby before a game starts that will disable both ally and all chat. This will prevent your bad day from becoming others and prevent you from getting banned because your ability to control yourself is severely diminished. You should definitely not have the option to re enable it in game. You only can re enable it in the client. This would be the single best prevention of toxicity in the game so many people would use this to stop themselves from being toxic its amazing how this one solution would get rid of 70 percent of all toxicity cause this is also a solution for toxicity 1. Just make sure you get rid of the sound effect it makes when someone types in chat cause if you just died your 3rd time and are now 0 three and the FSHHT FSHHT FSHHT sound effect happens you know someones bashing you in chat.

Toxicity 5: Reports themselves

The problem: People do not understand what a report actually is. It is a VERY serious thing. It is a condemnation by the reporter to the one being punished that makes the claim that their behavior was so distressing so alarmingly bad and harmful to you that they should lose all the time, money, effort, and friends they have invested in this game. Most reports by which i mean 99999/100000 are about someone called you bad, or a feeder, or threatened to afk or troll but didn't do it. Petty childish little things. These are things parents wouldn't even ground a 5 year old for. These are the petty tiny things most people are permanently banned for.

The solution: Make reports harder to file. Not too hard but hard enough that the petty childish things stop being so prevalent. Calling someone an idiot is rude, stop banning people over something so petty, mute button exists, USE IT. **@RIOT GAMES ** Stop encouraging people to report it causes problems. If i have gotten mad and said something stupid i already know i messed up and will now receive a ban for something so INSIGNIFICANT. If I'm already screwed might as well watch the world burn, this is how many people see it because your bot is too harsh. Tell people to stop being petty, to grow up, and to mute.

18 Comments

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}Solution: A good solution to preventing team infighting is easy. Increase the tab screen information with objective and turret damage, and gold income data as well as team fight presence data. This will allow people to understand that KDA doesn't mean everything.

I legitimately don't think this will help to do anything other than give people more possible ammunition. If someone really wants to insult someone else or criticism their gameplay, more information isn't likely to stop them.

Solution: For most types of trolls an easy way to prevent it would be a record button next to mute that has that person recorded for 5 minutes. That video could then instantly be sent to riot for review. Now this will cause mass reports to pile up so the solution to that is also simple. Reinstate the tribunal for this kind of report. Viewing this 5 minute video will give you 100 BE.

...that's a ton of BE given out, and becomes the single best way to earn BE. Further, the stuff that's this obvious is already decently detected by the system.

However for more than 1 in a month punishments will be harsher. You on the second offense within a month will lose twice the mmr and twice the ladder points as well as get no EXP. For normals you will get zero EXP. After 5 you will take on your entire teams loss worth of lp and mmr and go down in exp by the amount you would have gained to 0 but no further. In normals go backwards in EXP by the amount you would have gained down to 0.

This doesn't really do much at all, honestly. In ranked it actually causes issues, as AFKing now actually degrades your MMR and makes games worse for low-MMR players who are now matched against higher MMR players who simply have a lot of AFKs. That's pretty bad for the match-making system's accuracy and for the experience of the players stuck with the artificially-low player.

Further, it just increases the frustration for legitimate AFKs by putting a worse penalty on them, which isn't good. It already sucks to be leaverbusted for things outside your control, and doubly sucks to lose a ton of EXP/MMR as a result.

It also doesn't solve the ongoing problem where your best way to preserve your LP is to convince someone else to AFK so they take the full loss, while trying to play as close to the edge of the punishment system as possible so you don't get hit by it.

The problem: People do not understand what a report actually is. It is a VERY serious thing. It is a condemnation by the reporter to the one being punished that makes the claim that their behavior was so distressing so alarmingly bad and harmful to you that they should lose all the time, money, effort, and friends they have invested in this game.

Not really -- there are several levels of escalation, so it's more an indication that someone else's behavior is actively making the game a worse place, and you think they need a warning that it needs to stop. If someone ignores every warning given and works their way up to a permanent ban, that's not really my fault.

Zonderic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=nFOtME7E,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-04T19:45:16.653+0000)

I legitimately don't think this will help to do anything other than give people more possible ammunition. If someone really wants to insult someone else or criticism their gameplay, more information isn't likely to stop them.

Maybe but it does also give the ability to point out that you arent doing THAT bad. And ways to help teach people productively.

...that's a ton of BE given out, and becomes the single best way to earn BE. Further, the stuff that's this obvious is already decently detected by the system.

But the stuff that is not easy to detect is not detected and that is retroactive this is something people know is watching them if they troll and will catch them, that is a proactive tool which is ALWAYS better BE price can always be adjusted but i beleive as you would have to spend 25 minutes to earn 500 BE its probly fine.

This doesn't really do much at all, honestly. In ranked it actually causes issues, as AFKing now actually degrades your MMR and makes games worse for low-MMR players who are now matched against higher MMR players who simply have a lot of AFKs. That's pretty bad for the match-making system's accuracy and for the experience of the players stuck with the artificially-low player.

That is a good point then just make it effect lp and exp this basically causes them to gain nothing ever. Ranked bans could happen too if it becomes a problem.

Further, it just increases the frustration for legitimate AFKs by putting a worse penalty on them, which isn't good. It already sucks to be leaverbusted for things outside your control, and doubly sucks to lose a ton of EXP/MMR as a result.

I agree with you no one should have to deal with that so see above.

It also doesn't solve the ongoing problem where your best way to preserve your LP is to convince someone else to AFK so they take the full loss, while trying to play as close to the edge of the punishment system as possible so you don't get hit by it.

But no one can force anyone to do anything i have never seen anyone actually afk if asked to ever. Why would anyone willingly subject themselves to a possible demotion and a massive loss of progress because someone else said something mean. Most people aren't that fragile. Also mute exists so that argument i personally do not feel holds real merit.

Not really -- there are several levels of escalation, so it's more an indication that someone else's behavior is actively making the game a worse place, and you think they need a warning that it needs to stop. If someone ignore every warning given and works their way up to a permanent ban, that's not really my fault.

But you are wrong just because it is against the rules doesn't make it wrong, rules can be wrong. That is the point of this discussion. You expect me to believe you actually feel it is justified for someone to lose contact with their friends, lose hundreds of dollars, hundreds of hours of time and effort because they got mad a couple times? To be permanently removed and lose all that over something so petty as calling someone an idiot, trash, threatening to afk or troll but not actually doing it? If you really feel that way just cause you have a couple warnings that would make you actually a bad person. The mute button exists it is a proactive tool to resolve the issue of someone seeming toxic. There is never going to be a time when you are morally justified in removing someone from this game because they said a petty insult just cause they have to do it more than once.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe but it does also give the ability to point out that you aren't doing THAT bad.

I have not yet seen the use of in-game statistics dissuade someone who is convinced that he/she wants to chew out another player. It seems more likely they might have another in-game metric to complain about.

But the stuff that is not easy to detect is not detected and that is retroactive this is something people know is watching them if they troll and will catch them, that is a proactive tool which is ALWAYS better BE price can always be adjusted but i beleive as you would have to spend 25 minutes to earn 500 BE its probly fine.

500 BE is about half a level, which equates to 3-4 games -- or 1.5 hours+ of game time.

Further, this would have the same issues as the Tribunal had, only with a longer amount of time to invest -- and would thus likely end up with the same enormous backlog the Tribunal had.

That is a good point then just make it effect lp and exp this basically causes them to gain nothing ever. Ranked bans could happen too if it becomes a problem.

Gaining nothing ever isn't a huge concern to players who already have everything they want, and ranked bans just pushes the issue into normal games.

But no one can force anyone to do anything i have never seen anyone actually afk if asked to ever.

If asked to, no. If consistently abused for a game, possibly. Regardless, it opens trying to get someone to AFK as the best means to preserve LP and, with as aggressively LP-focused as some people are, that will happen. I can't support anything that even somewhat makes "be nasty to your team" a valid strategy.

But you are wrong just because it is against the rules doesn't make it wrong, rules can be wrong. That is the point of this discussion.

There clearly isn't a discussion here, based on statements like this:

"If you really feel that way just cause you have a couple warnings that would make you actually a bad person."

"There is never going to be a time when you are morally justified in removing someone from this game because they said a petty insult just cause they have to do it more than once."

You may disagree with my stance (being that a private company is entirely within their rights to say "don't insult other players", tell you up front, and punish you for not abiding by that relatively simple rule), but when you put it in terms like that where you paint the argument as "agree with you or be morally wrong," no good discussion can be started.

Zonderic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=nFOtME7E,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T21:08:57.208+0000)

I have not yet seen the use of in-game statistics dissuade someone who is convinced that he/she wants to chew out another player. It seems more likely they might have another in-game metric to complain about.

I have seen it ery little as well but it does give more opportunities to do so and it gives you a away to focus on the most important things to improve your own play which even regardless of this scenery is actually a good thing. Sometimes you really are at fault and you have no defense other than to admit you suck and get gud. Usually you are doing something right and are just having a bad matchup but sometime syou are the feeder costing the game. This can help you see that.

500 BE is about half a level, which equates to 3-4 games -- or 1.5 hours+ of game time.

You are probably right still even without the reward its still better than doing nothing. There could be a statute of limitations for backlog incidents.

Further, this would have the same issues as the Tribunal had, only with a longer amount of time to invest -- and would thus likely end up with the same enormous backlog the Tribunal had.

See above

Gaining nothing ever isn't a huge concern to players who already have everything they want, and ranked bans just pushes the issue into normal games.

Hmm well then cause them to decay no one wants to end the season in bronze so this should suffice.

If asked to, no. If consistently abused for a game, possibly. Regardless, it opens trying to get someone to AFK as the best means to preserve LP and, with as aggressively LP-focused as some people are, that will happen. I can't support anything that even somewhat makes "be nasty to your team" a valid strategy.

Mute exists if you choose to leave because people are mean you deserve to be punished. You deserve to be punished just like that person deserves to be chat restricted or if they stepped too for over the line like with hate speech banned.

There clearly isn't a discussion here, based on statements like this:

"If you really feel that way just cause you have a couple warnings that would make you actually a bad person."

"There is never going to be a time when you are morally justified in removing someone from this game because they said a petty insult just cause they have to do it more than once."

You may disagree with my stance (being that a private company is entirely within their rights to say "don't insult other players", tell you up front, and punish you for not abiding by that relatively simple rule), but when you put it in terms like that where you paint the argument as "agree with you or be morally wrong," no good discussion can be started.

I apologize you are correct i am trying to force you into a corner.

But as to your argument, i have the right to shoot someone who walks on my grass if i have a no trespassing sign and a clear indication of where my yard is, doesnt mean i should.

Riot absolutely should PUNISH people for abusing their team for things as petty as calling them an idiot. However riot has gone WAY too far in banning people over petty things. Chat bans are more than sufficient. In fact just completely mute them. Don't remove them from the game just because they lost their temper.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}This can help you see that.

I'm not saying I'm not for more stats -- I'm simply saying it won't have the effect you want enough to be considered anything close to a fix.

There could be a statute of limitations for backlog incidents.

Then it's not very helpful. If 1 in every 100 League games has someone reported, and there's a single 5 minute video, that's a lot of time.

Riot's last release was that 27 million people play the game per day. If each only plays 1 game, that's 2.7 million games. If only 1 in 100 is reported, that's 27,000 reports. If each is 5 minutes long that's 2,250 hours of report footage each day...and that's using incredibly unrealistic numbers.

Assume that we need at least 5 players to get some level of agreement. That's 11,250 hours of reporting each day or, if each player devotes half an hour to it a day (rather unrealistic), 22,500 players needed just to keep pace. The actual numbers are likely far higher than that in terms of how many videos per game, how many games, and how often someone would use this feature, so that number could be off by a factor of tends to hundreds. It's simply not tenable -- within a few days you'd have a backlog that would likely be WEEKS, and it would grow from there.

Hmm well then cause them to decay no one wants to end the season in bronze so this should suffice.

I don't think that solves the problem either. You just get a bunch of people who look artificially low, and you -- again -- super punish those who accrue more AFKs than allowed through no fault of their own.

Mute exists if you choose to leave because people are mean you deserve to be punished. You deserve to be punished just like that person deserves to be chat restricted or if they stepped too for over the line like with hate speech banned.

I'm not saying leaving is fine. I am saying that any system that puts a possible incentive on encouraging someone to leave has inherent issues that need to be addressed before it can be considered an improvement over the current system.

I apologize you are correct i am trying to force you into a corner.

Apology accepted. :)

Riot absolutely should PUNISH people for abusing their team for things as petty as calling them an idiot. However riot has gone WAY too far in banning people over petty things. Chat bans are more than sufficient. In fact just completely mute them. Don't remove them from the game just because they lost their temper.

This is a very common opinion, but it's actually one we have data on: Riot has tried just using chat bans in the past, precisely to test this. An out-sized portion of those players persisted in causing their teammates troubles in other ways, and it was ineffective enough that Riot switched to the model we have now. It's easier to detect the most identifiable forms of toxicity and remove those players from the community than it is to put them in a position where they try other, harder to detect forms of toxicity to express their frustration.

Players are also usually (save in instances of hate speech, etc) given a lot of chances, and there's a LOT of leeway built into the system for more minor offenses: multiple games are needed for more minor offenses, and you can work your accounts back into perfect standing by showing good behavior. This is why those players who earn a permanent ban are usually those who are repeatedly and consistently issues, not those who simply lose their temper in a minor way once in a blue moon.

Zonderic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=nFOtME7E,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T22:21:16.083+0000)

I'm not saying I'm not for more stats -- I'm simply saying it won't have the effect you want enough to be considered anything close to a fix.

Maybe but anything is better than the nothing riot has been doing.

Then it's not very helpful. If 1 in every 100 League games has someone reported, and there's a single 5 minute video, that's a lot of time.

Makes sense ill concede your point here. Im sure theres a way to catch trolls or a proactive that could be installed but i don't know what it would be.

Riot's last release was that 27 million people play the game per day. If each only plays 1 game, that's 2.7 million games. If only 1 in 100 is reported, that's 27,000 reports. If each is 5 minutes long that's 2,250 hours of report footage each day...and that's using incredibly unrealistic numbers.

See above

Assume that we need at least 5 players to get some level of agreement. That's 11,250 hours of reporting each day or, if each player devotes half an hour to it a day (rather unrealistic), 22,500 players needed just to keep pace. The actual numbers are likely far higher than that in terms of how many videos per game, how many games, and how often someone would use this feature, so that number could be off by a factor of tends to hundreds. It's simply not tenable -- within a few days you'd have a backlog that would likely be WEEKS, and it would grow from there.

I don't think that solves the problem either. You just get a bunch of people who look artificially low, and you -- again -- super punish those who accrue more AFKs than allowed through no fault of their own.

The only people punished super harshly are the afkers in ranked while everyone would be punished. (this is also on top of the xisting leaver penalties btw) As for the artificially kept low thing, that means no end of season rewards as and it IS through their own fault. If you have net that screws up 2 or 3 times a month you are playing ranked knowing that at any moment you could cost your team the match. At the same time 3 games of afks isnt gonna hit you very hard. You have to consistently afk and if you are doing it to the degree you cannot rank up then you are screwing people hard enough on purpose knowing your net is screwed up that this punishment is honestly not harsh enough for that kind of person.

I'm not saying leaving is fine. I am saying that any system that puts a possible incentive on encouraging someone to leave has inherent issues that need to be addressed before it can be considered an improvement over the current system.

Removing chat restrictions and flat out muting people who abuse others would more than suffice. These people will not be able to harass others for very long if they accrue more and more mutes. They should not be banned from the game as they can be muted and saying get the fuck out isn't that harsh, if they go into hate speech they should just get banned. I will never accept anyone's excuse that just cause they where mean you left. Also there's another way, you can set up a second detection system for people specifically doing this and just ban them from ranked mode. Banning someone from ranked will definitely curb that. They can play normals while serving their whatever 10 25 50 100 game chat restriction but not ranked (only if they encouraged leaving the game). That should definitely make them rethink that.

Apology accepted. :)

This is a very common opinion, but it's actually one we have data on: Riot has tried just using chat bans in the past, precisely to test this. An out-sized portion of those players persisted in causing their teammates troubles in other ways, and it was ineffective enough that Riot switched to the model we have now. It's easier to detect the most identifiable forms of toxicity and remove those players from the community than it is to put them in a position where they try other, harder to detect forms of toxicity to express their frustration.

Sounds like riot decided their first attempt failed so instead of trying something knew they put every criminal no matter how petty in front of the firing squad. Riot is known to be rather lazy. There determination to remove over reform doesn't work. You can both buy and level up a new account.

Players are also usually (save in instances of hate speech, etc) given a lot of chances, and there's a LOT of leeway built into the system for more minor offenses: multiple games are needed for more minor offenses, and you can work your accounts back into perfect standing by showing good behavior. This is why those players who earn a permanent ban are usually those who are repeatedly and consistently issues, not those who simply lose their temper in a minor way once in a blue moon.

You can be removed from the game permanently for minor things within 12 games total, plus the game views bad behavior WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more harshly than good behavior when it takes 3 games to get punished even if yin 200 you are nice that is not leeway that is oh my god you say something ONLY 2 year old would find mean BANNED. It takes months to year to go back to good standing but 3 games to up a punishment tier even if you only did minor offenses.

zPOOPz2 votes

Solution: A good solution to preventing team infighting is easy. Increase the tab screen information with objective and turret damage, and gold income data as well as team fight presence data. This will allow people to understand that KDA doesn't mean everything.

People barely willing to look at the mini-map when they play. You think they're going to frequently look at tabbed info. Furthermore, why do you think MORE info on the tab screen would help? I don't want my teammates (or even myself) to have a BIG tabbed screen up blocking their gameplay screen to look at a bunch of pointless info and try to decipher it while not looking at their game screen DURING a game. Even when they are dead, I prefer my teammates to look at map instead of looking at pointless data possibly trying to find blame.

Zonderic1 votes

{quoted}

People barely willing to look at the mini-map when they play. You think they're going to frequently look at tabbed info. Furthermore, why do you think MORE info on the tab screen would help? I don't want my teammates (or even myself) to have a BIG tabbed screen up blocking their gameplay screen to look at a bunch of pointless info and try to decipher it while not looking at their game screen DURING a game. Even when they are dead, I prefer my teammates to look at map instead of looking at pointless data possibly trying to find blame.

That is true but this is more for the ability to tell people look i may not be getting 20 kills but i am not making you lose now focus on you. You can look at your own stuff and see what you are doing. I want more proactive tools to help mitigate in game toxicity without having to rely on something like reports. If you can force people to see things from a different way then people will be less toxic.

zPOOPz1 votes

Yes, you also give people "tools" to assign blames and nitpick stats in the middle of a losing game

Awf Meta2 votes

Toxicity 1, EGO

I like your suggestion. I don't think it is perfect though. Some actions are hard to convey by stats. For example: posture and positioning. A support "zoning" the enemy adc doesn't really have a stat. I've been in situations where my posture as a support has given my adc safe farm. While it just looks like I'm sitting in a bush. It was the threat of me that allowed my team mate an easy time.

Zonderic1 votes

{quoted}

I like your suggestion. I don't think it is perfect though. Some actions are hard to convey by stats. For example: posture and positioning. A support "zoning" the enemy adc doesn't really have a stat. I've been in situations where my posture as a support has given my adc safe farm. While it just looks like I'm sitting in a bush. It was the threat of me that allowed my team mate an easy time.

This is true but i can only suggest basic information as things like having a huge impact passively cannot be recorded as data with current technology realistically.

91929298DEL11 votes

[deleted]

Zonderic1 votes

{quoted}

Point 1: You acknowledge the source of the issue is the natural irrationality of human emotion but then try to solve it with a rational approach. It wouldn't work because that objective information is meaningless to a simplistic being lashing out based on animalistic emotions. That raging, unintelligent buffoon is not going to care about any of that.

But not everyone is going to stay irrational in the face of rationality. Many will realize they are wrong some will apologize most will just themselves up. The rest there's a mute button for that.

Point 2: There are so many issues with this that I can't even begin to list them, from the technological challenges of having all these recordings (and there would be hundreds of thousands since so many people think anybody doing poorly is a troll) done, sent and stored. Since the infinite possibility for abuse due to giving BE for reviewing them. Just set up a simple bot on your PC to view those all day long and start swimming in BE.

Unfortunately i have to concede this point, i have a possible solution to that but i am unsure if it is technologically feasible. Have the bot arbitrate them and only send through ones it is unsure of.

Yes, Riot could hire a literal army of employees and train them extensively to review every single game where anyone is ever reported for inting. It would probably catch the vast majority of cases. It would also be an immense expense and a terrible business decision (don't get me wrong, I'm the costumer, I would love it but it's simply unrealistic to expect any true solution to inting).

Well if they are gonna do that can they just use them to fix the pathing lmao.

Point 3: From the perspective of a player harsher penalties have no downside at all, from Riot's perspective they do. Punish it too little and there's player dissatisfaction, punish it too hard and you will push away a lot of players. Players that maybe have good but not ultra great Internet and it fails them 2 or 3 times a month, fathers that will only play when they child is sleep but sometimes they wake up unexpectedly and so on. From my own, selfish perspective I would love super ultra harsh penalties for AFKing since my AFK rate for all my games is probably like 0.2% and not a single time was it intentional. But from a business perspective it's a dangerous line to thread.

I have to disagree with you here the punishment for doing it in normals is far less harsh and if you have bad net you should never be in ranked, at the same time if you have responsibilities you also should not be in ranked.

Point 4: I mean, writing /fullmute all takes 2 seconds... But sure, make it more convenient (and making sure all players are actually aware of it) couldn't hurt.

Most people having a bad day turn into Toxicity 1 they aren't just getting defensive at abuse. This just gives you a proactive way to stop yourself when you just KNOW you are gonna go off.

Point 5: Completely disagree, what's report worthy or not will vary wildly between individuals and how can we determine which definition is objectively correct? it's impossible. That's why Riot set the IFS with all it's data to determine what the majority considers report worthy and to which degree, therefore enabling something at least somewhat resembling a consensus on the issue.

Most people in this game report people not cause the petty insult offended them but because they are blaming that person for their loss or they got annoyed and now they will get them perma banned costing them their friends hundreds of dollars and years of time.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}Most people in this game report people not cause the petty insult offended them but because they are blaming that person for their loss or they got annoyed and now they will get them perma banned...

Reports alone do not cause punishment. The IFS needs to have actually discovered punishable behavior, or no punishment will be applied.

You can argue that the current guidelines (which are set by community reporting habits) are too strict, but that's something to take up with the community, which might not agree with you. The idea that people are getting banned for blaming someone and not for exhibiting problematic behavior, however, is not true -- false bans are extremely uncommon.

Zonderic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=nFOtME7E,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T21:55:59.006+0000)

Reports alone do not cause punishment. The IFS needs to have actually discovered punishable behavior, or no punishment will be applied.

You can argue that the current guidelines (which are set by community reporting habits) are too strict, but that's something to take up with the community, which might not agree with you. The idea that people are getting banned for blaming someone and not for exhibiting problematic behavior, however, is not true -- false bans are extremely uncommon.

Actually i was referring to minor arguments in the game. If you say anything back to the abuser and get reported you get punished.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Actually i was referring to minor arguments in the game. If you say anything back to the abuser and get reported you get punished.

If what you say is toxic, sure.

The following are all fine:

"Hey dude, lay off a bit. I'm having a bad game." "Can you please stop?" "Knock if off." "Insulting me isn't necessary." "Muting you now."

The following aren't fine:

"You suck too." "Learn to play before calling me out." "Shut the fuck up." "Just stop being an asshole."

Zonderic1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=nFOtME7E,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2018-03-04T22:08:42.117+0000)

If what you say is toxic, sure.

The following are all fine:

The following aren't fine:

Actually telling them you are muting them gets you banned.

ModThe Djinn2 votes

{quoted}

Actually telling them you are muting them gets you banned.

If you say it politely as a statement and just a single time, no it will not. I have done it for seven seasons now -- it's a communication to let your team know when you can't see some information. shrug

More from Player Behavior

The indefinite banning of Tyler1
Player Behavior4,799 comments
2,942
votes
14 day ban because playing Nunu Support with Smite is "stealing other people's roles"...?
Player Behavior1,525 comments
1,086
votes
Riot should add monthly status cards
Player Behavior241 comments
843
votes
Reminder that we haven't gotten our Summoner report cards yet :/
Player Behavior145 comments
619
votes
I'm not "triggered" by you throwing insults.
Player Behavior361 comments
548
votes
Black Alistar, King Rammus!!!!
Player Behavior462 comments
503
votes

More by Zonderic

i dont have the slef control to not speak when trolled or i get some jungler walking in my lane and
Player Behavior20 comments
3
votes
I hadn't played in two years but within ten games i had been trolled 3 times and had an afk
Player Behavior2 comments
1
votes
afk for 20 minutes
General Discussion2 comments
1
votes