Let's Chat about Honor

RiotSimurgh·Jul 1, 2017·66 votes·141,463 views

Hi folks!

Honor has been live for a day (or longer if you're in OCE) and I hope you're enjoying it. But what we shipped this patch is only the first step - we want to keep building on and improving on Honor over the next year, so I want to hear from you. What are your first impressions or feedback? Any fun stories? Any burning questions about the system? I'll be checking this thread periodically through the weekend and holiday.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to thank the people who made the Honor revamp a reality: BionicNinja, NeuroCat, RiotBoourns, RiotTantram, RiotTantrams's dog Maru, Riot Stopthief, Dio DeSol, RiotId, DuckCurry, NaKyle, Luciandelacroix, HomieRocket, DeNocte, Riot Tainze (plus many others whose summoner names I don't remember). Maybe some of them will pop into this thread as well ;)

605 Comments

TormentulaJul 1, 2017108 votes

Give us a way to watch our honor gain like masteries. We have no idea how far/close we are to leveling.

Getting honor felt great at first but it almost feels like beating a dead horse trying to level without seeing how far/close we are.

RiotSimurghJul 1, 201768 votes

Hey, this is a good question, but we actually very intentionally did not include any sort of progress indicator for Honor levels. Here are a few reasons why:

We didn't want to anchor people on the "grind" to honor levels. By not having progress indicators, we wanted to root the reinforcement for being sportsmanlike on the feedback you get from other players (the honors), not any artificial motivation from being "close to the next level".
Our behind-the-scenes systems which determine honor level ups aren't simple. The types of calculations we do to determine if a player is ready to level up take into account their holistic behavior across many games, and don't lend themselves well to being surfaced in an "XP bar"-style system. Anything we surface here could also warp behavior around trying to "minmax" the most honor points, which really refocuses it away from the point of the Honor system - play good games and you'll make progress.
We wanted to have a few discrete levels in Honor, since bloating the number would make each feel less meaningful. However, we wanted players to progress over the course of a season or half-season, which means that progress to the next level would necessarily be fairly slow. We didn't think it would be a great experience to reinforce this through some progress indicator.

RecalescenceJul 1, 201718 votes

"lack of clarity is best"

-riot since 2015

how long do you expect to keep customers while being CNN with faking statistics and never providing proof or reasoning behind anything you do

RiotRiot TantramJul 1, 201769 votes

I mean ... you just responded to the reasoning...

RecalescenceJul 1, 201711 votes

that reasoning is horrible. it really is

i never though it'd be possible for this game to get worse after lyte leaving but congrats

TormentulaJul 1, 201721 votes

I want to put a disclaimer here: I'm a nice person, I apologize in advance if my tone in the text sounds or feels ignorant or ragey, I mean this to be read respectfully not harshly. :)

I understand the reasoning behind why nothing was implemented, but I'm going to be completely honest with you, what most of us care about is getting to level 5 to get honor exclusive rewards and personally I'm looking at (rng) chances for those two limited skins, and a lot of players feel the same way.

"That's wrong, you should worry about being good!"

Yea, but that's nothing we "good" players have to worry about because it naturally happens, we're not getting bans/restrictions so we'll just get level 5 eventually anyway, and its kinda frustrating for us to figure out "am I good enough?" when the fact we're still playing is already the big "ya you're a decent person".

I don't have to be fake nice to get level 5, why do I deserve fake assumption with what level I am and to make fake guesses when I'll reach that level?

What makes players get upset and less friendly is frustration, and tbh every game I play I feel a little frustrated because I feel like I gotta "play every norm like a ranked to grind for honor" simply because I don't know how much I'm even getting on a passive rate (if I knew I was gaining efficient honor "XP" per game of just simply playing and not being toxic, I'd be more at peace than trying to rush level 5 before season ends like I'm grinding for a rank or trying to get that S token/appeal to the team.). I feel a little frustrated getting that pentakill but the team honors the 0/5 AD for staying cool (not salt, I respect that and even I honored him) and the AD himself just doesn't honor and we don't get a lobby bonus, which all in all, makes me feel like even bothering with the system is beating a dead horse outside self esteem boost which feel good when you do get honored and makes us feel good when honoring somebody.

I think we all will be happy if you guys give us a "rule of thumb" in terms of how much we need to "grind" (yes it already feels that way), or an in-depth look at how the honor system works mathematically just like how our ask riot gave us some insight of the mechanics behind auto fill.

As far as the idea of the honor system itself, I do love it but I have noticed a lot of fake nice, especially in my premades where me and my buddy seem to compete for who gets the honors (since we don't get much doing it to each other we gotta earn the wildcard's). However, I cannot emphasize enough how much better that is and I can't really complain about it as much as I could complain about somebody flaming instead. I'd say the honor system is successful so far, just needs more explanation in terms of leveling up, but we'll have to see how level 5 looks and whether or not players will "fake nice to 5" and then go back to spam pinging their team, too early to judge but today and yesterday have been great so far and even I've been completely avoiding using chat outside shot calling or saying gj to earn as much respect as I can. (I have my moments ;-;)

I would like this clarified though:

Do REPORTS harm your honor? Or is it only PENALITIES? Will a toxic premade 4x me for having an off game lower my honor, or will only me getting bans/chat restrictions harm my honor?

By wording from multiple sources it sounds like reports alone can harm honor, including false ones, would like to confirm/deconfirm that.

RiotSimurghJul 1, 201714 votes

Thanks for the feedback - you put a lot of energy into this post. Maybe I can answer some of your questions:

I think you'll find the most efficient way to increase honor level is just to play more games with a good attitude. Don't flame, don't question mark ping and play games, and you'll be good. Getting honored helps, and having everyone participate in honor also helps. Trying to abuse the system with premades spamming honors on each other won't help. The more good games you play, the more good experiences for nine other people you create, and you'll get rewarded.
Penalties are the only things that will drop your honor level. A toxic premade all falsely reporting you will not affect your honor level in any way. However, keep in mind, our systems are watching for good behavior on the whole for players to increase in level. If you're flaming and being negative towards your team (but not toxic enough to get punished), you might not drop in honor level, but you probably won't climb fast either.

MitchelsonJul 1, 201713 votes

I personally really like the ambiguity and think you've provided some great reasoning here.

JRobin31Jul 2, 201721 votes

What is the point of an honor system? Is it to reward players who are honorable by distinguishing them from their fellow teammates?

{quoted}

Give us a way to watch our honor gain like masteries. We have no idea how far/close we are to leveling.

Getting honor felt great at first but it almost feels like beating a dead horse trying to level without seeing how far/close we are.

Serious problem here. Why? Players should feel rewarded when they are honored. Progress is rewarding.

{quoted} We didn't want to anchor people on the "grind" to honor levels. By not having progress indicators, we wanted to root the reinforcement for being sportsmanlike on the feedback you get from other players (the honors), not any artificial motivation from being "close to the next level".

Unavoidable. An honor system designed to reward players for being honorable is reinforced by the rewards. An honor system can't benefit from being deliberately mysterious about the reward. Psychology 101. It doesn't work. Pavlovian-instrumental transfer: the reward must occur when the behavior is noticed. Carrot and Stick: the reward must be clearly visible and appear attainable. Achievement Motivation: characteristics by McClelland: responsibility for solving problems; calculated risk and moderate, attainable goals; continuous recognition, as well as feedback, in order for them to know how well they are doing. Expectancy Theory: Motivation = Expectancy X Instrumentality X Valence

Reinforcement for being sportsmanlike is not rooted on the feedback you get from other players, because the feedback from other players doesn't not tell you how much progress you are making.

{quoted} Our behind-the-scenes systems which determine honor level ups aren't simple. The types of calculations we do to determine if a player is ready to level up take into account their holistic behavior across many games, and don't lend themselves well to being surfaced in an "XP bar"-style system. Anything we surface here could also warp behavior around trying to "minmax" the most honor points, which really refocuses it away from the point of the Honor system - play good games and you'll make progress.

Not showing players their progress won't stop players from min/max. This is LoL we are talking about here. The idea that players aren't going to min/max if you don't show data is fanciful. What is the point of the honor system? Devs: "play good games and you will make progress" Players: "What progress?" It's not important to have "honor points". It's important to show progress.

{quoted} We wanted to have a few discrete levels in Honor, since bloating the number would make each feel less meaningful. However, we wanted players to progress over the course of a season or half-season, which means that progress to the next level would necessarily be fairly slow. We didn't think it would be a great experience to reinforce this through some progress indicator.

I like the few discrete levels of the new honor system. The old system lacked this. You don't think it would be a "great" experience to show progress indicators that move slowly? You didn't say it would be a bad experience. What is more frustrating: receiving honor and seeing your progress proceed slowly receiving honor and not knowing how it affects your progress (which, incidentally, proceeds slowly anyways)

In conclusion:

Honor does not benefit from deliberate obscurity. The best reinforcement is visible progress. I do hope that you at RIOT reconsider.

Fine Ionian SilkJul 1, 201719 votes

I think the new honor system really is magnificent, as it gives people an incentive for communicating with the team (in a way that's generally beneficial) as well as not flaming every person and their stuffed bear in chat. Also, I like how it will go up gradually over time (I believe this was mentioned in a post?) so even if you do not get honored often, you can still receive higher honor level.

In terms of improvements for the system, there are still some things that could be done or explained:

Being able to honor only one teammate can feel really bad, especially when you felt as if the entire team you played with was amazing (as rarely as this may happen).
What about premades? They'll have power to honor each other freely, and can just boost their honor levels at will. However, sometimes they may actually want to honor somebody in their premade as they were just that amazing of a player. Is there a potential of there being a kind of system where an honor only counts as half if you're in a premade with the person?
A popular one is there being no honorable opponent. Sometimes, people on the enemy team can feel fun to play against (or chat with). There's no way to honor them outside of simply telling them that you enjoyed playing with them.
It's unfortunate that players are unable to view how much more honor points(?) they need to get in order to level up to the next honor level. Is there going to be a way of viewing how much more honor points needs to be obtained in order to reach the next level?
This is kind of a minor one, but what about viewing what honors you got in match history? It can feel nice to just go in to your match history and see games that you were honored for your behavior, even if you lost the game.

That's all I have to say about it at the moment, but I truly do like the system.

RiotSimurghJul 1, 201722 votes

Yeah! We want players who just play silently and don't really talk much (so don't get Honored much) to still make progress in Honor, since just playing to win is sportsmanlike play. To your points:

Totally agree. IMO this is one of Honor's current biggest weaknesses. We're looking to expand honor to cover this weakness in future improvements.
We have systems in place that will account for premades that spam honor each other. They will not be able to abuse the Honor system to gain levels in this way.
Same as #1, we want to cover this case as well.
Unfortunately we won't be adding a progress indicator. I discuss a bit why here.
Yeah! This is a really cool idea. We've got to figure out the feasibility of this, but I want to make this happen.

Fine Ionian SilkJul 1, 20175 votes

Thanks for taking the time to reply. Reading your comment, I can see why a progress indicator won't be applied. I kind of find it a bit disheartening, but the reasoning is understandable behind it. I'm glad honors can be viewed in match history, it'll feel really nice to look and see the honors I've received on top of winning (or losing)!

SonicfiendJul 1, 201712 votes

I don’t post very often and I saw that I posted this is game play but it should have been here.

I just need to comment on the new honor system since it is irking me.

First off, props to Riot for the revamp, I believe it needed one. I like the idea of it leveling up and giving me a rank. I like the flairs and how it rewards (and punishes). I feel this whole new concept is pretty awesome.

What I don’t like is how the actual honoring takes place, or the categories that are offered. Right now, once I finish my game, the system compels me to honor someone, but not everyone. However, this is a super rare event for me.

Traditionally, I have one of 3 types of game experiences: 1 - My team is toxic; Sometimes it’s just one person, but usually once a troll shows up the whole group degrades and the game sucks win or lose. 2 - My team is ‘normal’; This is my normal league experience like 80% of my games, people don’t talk much, they play the best they can in their roles, we win or lose as a team. 3 - My team is fantastic; This is awesome, the team just clicks, we work well together, people communicate with each other there are awesome plays, there are #LCSBigPlays. I live for these games even if we don’t always win them.

From these scenarios, this is how I traditionally respond: In scenario one, someone(s) get reported In scenario two, I don’t honor or report anyone In scenario three, I honor most of my team, for ‘teamwork’ or ‘fun’. In any of these scenarios if I had a good time against my lane opponent or if I have fun with someone in all chat I give an honorable opponent.

The new honor system completely fails in giving me a reasonable way of dealing with any of these scenarios. Before I get to read peoples after game chat (which can be really revealing), I get this obtrusive screen that forces me to vote a leader, or a fun person, or a un-tilter!?! A leader is useless with out a team following, a fun person is usually a fun team and the ‘un-tilted’? I have no idea when I would use that. My point is most of my recent games I have just skipped giving anyone honor, but I feel that defeats the whole purpose of the new system

I cannot be the only one who thinks/plays this way,

Riot or others, thoughts?

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20178 votes

Thanks for sharing this. I think that you have a pretty common experience with other players - sometimes you either want to honor no-one or everyone. Part of us moving to a single honor system was to simplify the experience (one click to get out of the Honor screen) and to increase the value of that Honor. I agree that we need to improve the system with a way to recognize those games where everyone on your team was awesome.

And hey, its OK to skip through it. There are those games where no one stands out to you. I definitely have those games. Something I'd encourage you to do though - when you read through those categories, think back through the game and ask yourself if there really isn't anyone who deserved it. Something we saw through playtesting the feature is that those categories actually prompted recollection and people found themselves honoring people that maybe they wouldn't have before. Food for thought.

EvilMerodachJul 1, 20176 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for sharing this. I think that you have a pretty common experience with other players - sometimes you either want to honor no-one or everyone. Part of us moving to a single honor system was to simplify the experience (one click to get out of the Honor screen) and to increase the value of that Honor. I agree that we need to improve the system with a way to recognize those games where everyone on your team was awesome.

And hey, its OK to skip through it. There are those games where no one stands out to you. I definitely have those games. Something I'd encourage you to do though - when you read through those categories, think back through the game and ask yourself if there really isn't anyone who deserved it. Something we saw through playtesting the feature is that those categories actually prompted recollection and people found themselves honoring people that maybe they wouldn't have before. Food for thought.

Biggest thing I miss from old system is honorable opponent. Or post-game honor in general. Sometimes there is that 23/0/15 enemy Yi that got 2 penta's, that's just super nice about it. 'lol yeh that lucky double i got at level 4 really made it hard for you guys to come back from, gg tho'

#Any chance post-game honors will be added back in along with this system?

There has even been times I go out of a game and want to head straight for the report button. But then post-game lobby they start talking and are actually really nice. (Ally or enemy.) And change my mind and ended up honoring them.

Some people just play SUPER hard to win. Spam a lot of pings, talk pretty harsh in game, but not necessarily 'toxic', and sometimes make some pretty questionable plays- EG: Malphite just YOLO ulti's into an unwarded baron pit and throws a game we were winning. And we had an easy final team fight if they'd just waited another 10 seconds to do whatever they just did, and almost looks like int.feeding just to end at that point, but then post game they're like 'sorry guys, i totally tunnel visioned that last fight :/'

And it makes all the difference in the world.

But with new system, it seems like post-game lobby is pretty pointless. But I think post-game is fairly important. It's not like you have time to sit and type out an explanation of every play you made/are going to make while in game. Half the time you're trying to type a quick reply right before a team fight, and you end up burning your flash or something stupid and turn an iffy fight into a straight loss.

Chazual FridaysJul 1, 20179 votes

I like the new honor system! It makes things feel more fun and rewarding.

I wish I had something clever to say or some intelligent suggestion, but I don't.

Just tossing in my support, I guess!

JofeyyJul 1, 20178 votes

I had 1000+ teamworks through a few years of playing this game. I never got anything to show for it. Is all that progress completely erased without a trace or at least a small reward for it?

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20179 votes

We will be giving recognition to people who heavily engaged in old Honor. Details are coming soon, but aren't finalized yet.

KinjishiJul 1, 201711 votes

Please don't let this just be an icon like with Dominion. It's almost a default with Riot to hand out icons for everything. Gets rather old. Already have so many icons that I can't use them all.

If you insist on only doing icons... Perhaps allow players to use icons on their client profile page like badges, so they can show the team they root for (SKT, INTZ, EDG, Fnatic, etc.), events they participated in (Ascension, Poro King, etc.), and champs/skin lines they love (Project, Pool Party, etc.).

ÇhåryzårdJul 1, 20176 votes

RiotTantrams's dog Maru

explain

RiotRiot TainzeJul 1, 201720 votes

Tantram has a dog named Maru. He's adorable :).

ÇhåryzårdJul 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tainze,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=l3xTFQnI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-07-01T04:16:22.339+0000)

Tantram has a dog named Maru. He's adorable :).

but how did the doggo make the revamp a reality?

RiotSimurghJul 1, 201732 votes

{quoted}

but how did the doggo make the revamp a reality?

When you pet his soft fur, it makes anything possible. Trust me

ModPeriscopeJul 1, 20171 votes

Corgi?

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20177 votes

I don't actually know what breed. Paging @RiotTantram

RiotRiot TantramJul 1, 201739 votes

No, he's not a Corgi. He's a rescue and a mix of mix of mixes. He helped me solve many technical challenges by helping me talk it out and staring intently at my notes while drawing boxes and arrows. He also doubled as a soft pillow after late nights of load testing. He's currently trying to type on my keyboard as I'm typing this.

http://i.imgur.com/cukS9Gu.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/vWIT59g.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cBWyU9E.jpg

FairyfleurJul 1, 201730 votes

Is that pool party graves in the last picture :0

MavenSongJul 1, 20176 votes

God, im a sucker for cute dogs ;-;

dapositivevikingJul 1, 20178 votes

that last picture... is this dog really the dragon from never ending story?

Mysticman89Jul 1, 20177 votes

He's adorable :).

Tantram or his dog? [slayer-jinx-wink]

RiotSimurghJul 1, 201728 votes

Can I say I ship it and not get fired? We'll see

PlsTouchMeGentlyJul 1, 20175 votes

Mostly, I like it. Though there was this one guy who, in literally every sentence he typed, said "stay cool and don't tilt." No one honored him at the end lol.

ErythaeanXJul 1, 20171 votes

is the honor you can gain in a day capped? is it simply how many games you play and get honored or is it impossible to level up in a small amount of time?

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20177 votes

No cap on honors per day. Just play good games and you'll be making progress. Keep in mind though, this system has few levels and is meant to last over the course of the season. You should expect to rank up in Honor over the course of weeks-months, not days.

ShínyJul 1, 20171 votes

Since this season is more than half over, is honor progress tuned to be faster than normal? Meaning is level 5 reasonably achievable and is next season going to have a slower progression?

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20172 votes

Next season will either have a slower progression, or we'll be doing mid-season resets. Not sure yet.

SH AzykanJul 1, 201719 votes

slower progression would be better, mid season resets feel bad as a whole imo

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20179 votes

That's good feedback. Thanks

Fishing BoatJul 2, 20176 votes

Plus, what's the problem if somebody gets to sit at honor level five for like half the season? Sounds good to me

PaladinNOJul 2, 20172 votes

I have now seen

Everyone on your team honored a teammate! You got a little extra Honor progress this game.

...twice today. When it says "You", is the system addressing the one that got the most honours, or does it mean everyone on the team?

RiotSimurghJul 2, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I have now seen

...twice today. When it says "You", is the system addressing the one that got the most honours, or does it mean everyone on the team?

Everyone on the team. You mean you.

Kei143Jul 1, 20171 votes

Please answer if you see fit

Would you guys consider putting chronic leavers into honors lvl 1?
Progress bar coming for the next level?
How do you guys see this system combat toxicity and what do you expect from it?
How many games will it take to go from lvl 2 - lvl3 if you never get honored and never get punished?
How much more does getting honored speed up the leveling?
Is this the rumored Tribunal 2.0 mentioned a year ago?

Thats all for now !!

RiotSimurghJul 1, 20178 votes

We generally avoid involving chronic Leavers in our behavior systems, because its hard to tell if someone is AFKing intentionally or just has bad internet. ¯\_ (ツ) _/¯
Check this thread
Positive reinforcement is generally a pretty good method for motivating behavior change. We're hopeful, but our efforts are only in their early stages. We want to improve on Honor overtime.
Its not that simple, but you should generally expect to level up over the course of weeks to months.
Being honored legitimately (not just your premade spamming honors on you) will increase your progress significantly, but not to the point where it overshadows just playing good games over time. Sorry I can't be more specific.
The Tribunal 2.0 has entered the Land of Memes/is iceboxed for the foreseeable future - sorry.

Kei143Jul 1, 20171 votes