Boards›Player Behavior

Maybe its just me or is Riot being completely irrational about this?

I Smoke Díck··2 votes·3,897 views

Hello fellow summoners,

Most of you guys more than likely don't even know me but I've been around since mid season 2. A little less than 7 months ago I had gotten my main account permanently banned for foul language. I know that most of you guys will already decide that "you deserve it" and you're right I did but I have truly changed. With my new account I striven to do better and be a better person after putting in the consideration of how my words actually affected others through the online community. But what I had recently found out has been unacceptable in my eyes because I feel as though a friend of mine is getting special treatment. I will admit to knowing that he had cheated, hacked, and scripted exploiting Riots game League of Legends and ruined it for many people before he got "permanently banned." This ban wasn't so permanent as he emailed the support team and they decided to lift his "permanent ban" and he receives his account back next month after its been nearly a year. So I would like to know your guys input on this matter as to do you think that Riot is being irrational about my ban and not think that I have changed? Even though my new account is clean as ever, and proven of change. But Riot lets someone who has hacked, cheated, and scripted exploit their game but is able to recieve their account back after doing so? Please leave me your thoughts.

From your ADC main, GG Im Boosted formerly known as CurvyDownFork.

25 Comments

RiotRiot Tantram14 votes

This ban wasn't so permanent as he emailed the support team and they decided to lift his "permanent ban" and he receives his account back next month after its been nearly a year.

I think your friend might be pulling your leg here...

Permanent bans are permanent. If a ban was issued in error, it would be lifted immediately. If the severity of a ban was reduced for an over punishment, it would be reduced to a 14-day, with time served. There would never be a case where a player would get their account back in a month. Additionally, scripting is a perma-ban. That is not going to be lifted.

I'm happy to hear you are doing better on your next account. But, a permanent ban is permanent.

This Is Your Dad1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kFMa0lB9,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-18T02:39:49.267+0000)

I think your friend might be pulling your leg here...

Permanent bans are permanent. If a ban was issued in error, it would be lifted immediately. If the severity of a ban was reduced for an over punishment, it would be reduced to a 14-day, with time served. There would never be a case where a player would get their account back in a month. Additionally, scripting is a perma-ban. That is not going to be lifted.

I'm happy to hear you are doing better on your next account. But, a permanent ban is permanent.

Since I found you finally (I always see you in the behavior boards being referenced) I want to admit that the first time I read your name I read it as Tantrum. And I thought, wow, this guy is funny, because most people are throwing tantrums about bans and you're Riot Tantrum. Haha.

RiotRiot Tantram5 votes

Long ago, I played DAoC.

I really wanted to name my savage Tantrum, but the name was taken .... zzzz But, it was a good thing because it probably would have been taken in every other game too. So, I chose Tantram and it has followed me from game to game, and even to my job.

This Is Your Dad1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kFMa0lB9,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T08:09:21.309+0000)

Long ago, I played DAoC.

I really wanted to name my savage Tantrum, but the name was taken .... zzzz But, it was a good thing because it probably would have been taken in every other game too. So, I chose Tantram and it has followed me from game to game, and even to my job.

I feel the same way when I try and name myself Username Unavailable and it says Username Unavailable. I still salute your name aligning with your current occupation though. Cheers!

Paquay1 votes

Ahh DAoC... Still my favorite MMO of all time. Such epic battles and a completely awesome RvR system.

It would be awesome if there was a desperate mode in League that allied you to a faction with one of the areas. You could then only use the characters from that area as champions and only get matched with summoners from that area. At the end of the season there could be cool unique skins given out to the winning city or region. Zaun vs Piltover or Noxus would be fun.

Grandis1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kFMa0lB9,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-01-18T02:39:49.267+0000) a permanent ban is permanent.

Really? Tell me then, why did Incarnation's perma ban get lifted from "good behavior"? He was DDOS'ing opponents in live matches, some even tournament matches, and his lifetime ban got lifted after barely a year later.

RiotRiot Tantram12 votes

It didn't. His account is still banned.

His ban on competitive play was lifted, and was never permanent.

Grandis2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kFMa0lB9,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2017-01-19T01:11:57.491+0000)

It didn't. His account is still banned.

His ban on competitive play was lifted, and was never permanent.

According to the official post located here: http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/2015-mid-year-long-term-suspension-reviews

WHICH I QUOTE VERBATIM

"Below are the results of the 2015 Mid-Year Suspension Reviews. The players who have met or exceeded the normal standards of good behavior and will be eligible for competitive play this summer are:

Nicolaj “Incarnati0n” Jensen Former Cloud 9 Tempest players and staff: Colin “Solo” Earnest Anthony “Hard” Barkhovtsev David “Yusui” Bloomquist Benjamin “LOD” deMunck Ritchie “Fade” Ngo Tim “Timokiro” Cho Danan “Kaniggit” Flander"

YOU WUT MATE.

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1015978&page=1#post10180118

I was going to just copy and paste the entire ruling straight from Riot's old forums, link above. Instead I'm going to copy and paste the very last line part, where the sentence is established.

Jensen has violated the Summoner’s Code in a persistent and remorseless fashion.

Competition Penalties Jensen is: Ineligible to compete in the LCS Season Three European Qualifier in Warsaw, January 25-27, 2013. Ineligible to compete in the LCS indefinitely; this suspension shall commence immediately. Ineligible to compete in any Riot-affiliated League of Legends tournaments indefinitely; this suspension shall commence immediately.

So no, he's most certainly not still banned. He is the competitive mid laner for Cloud 9 right now. He has been since mid 2015, despite that INDEFINITE ban in 2013. You know, for DDOS'ing. Here, below are some of the other official posts related to this, where you re-evaluated your policy for banned players. Got anything else you wanna lie about to my face, mate? Hell this is pathetic, at least Lyte had the balls to debate me on the forums when I pointed out his lies, you aren't even trying.

https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/incarnati0n-jack-etienne-cloud9-1726 http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/competitive-policy-revision-permabanned-players

Narsicus7 votes

The passage you quoted even stated directly that the ban was from 'competitive play', which as stated is different from an account ban.

Additionally the ban was 'indefinite' not 'permanent'. Meaning, literally, that the ban had no timed duration not that it was irrevocable.

All I know about this is what you directly quoted, but from that there is no contradictions. I think you are getting caught up in the (admittedly) leagalease that such official proclamations are often couched in.

Grandis2 votes

{quoted}

The passage you quoted even stated directly that the ban was from 'competitive play', which as stated is different from an account ban.

Here, I'll quote the passage right above that one.

"Jensen has been permanently banned twice before. In August of 2012, a majority of players on the Tribunal voted to permaban Wizikx, a previous Jensen account. After reviewing the facts, the Riot player behavior team upheld the ban. Another Jensen account, Wizikodex, was permabanned in December 2012 for similar behavior.

As a result of this player’s history of DDOS activity, abusive behavior and poor sportsmanship, the player behavior team has issued a lifetime ban on Jensen. His Veigodx account has been permabanned and all future accounts will be permabanned on sight. "

Additionally the ban was 'indefinite' not 'permanent'. Meaning, literally, that the ban had no timed duration not that it was irrevocable.

Indefinite meaning "not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited" In terms of time periods for bans and punishments, indefinite is used to mean "unlimited" or "without end". In other words "banned for a period of time without end". the opposite of "Determinate" sources: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/indefinite http://www.dictionary.com/browse/determinate

All I know about this is what you directly quoted, but from that there is no contradictions. I think you are getting caught up in the (admittedly) leagalease that such official proclamations are often couched in.

If you read the actual article I linked, which I will link again right here

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1015978&page=1#post10180118

You will see more than what I directly quoted. I could quote the whole thing, but that would be a lot of space on this page. It makes far more sense to simply link my source and expect you to go read it, especially since my sources are official Riot posts. I'll also provide the same links from above, this time go read them. In order of links, we have the suspension review where Riot unbanned Incarnation and allowed him to become Cloud 9's mid laner, followed by riot's official policy revision statement regarding perma bans, and finally a dot e sports article on Jensen. It more or less paints him in a sympathetic light, but it's fairly accurate on most of it.

http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/2015-mid-year-long-term-suspension-reviews http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/competitive-policy-revision-permabanned-players https://dotesports.com/league-of-legends/incarnati0n-jack-etienne-cloud9-1726

ModPeriscope4 votes

Indefinite meaning "not definite; without fixed or specified limit; unlimited" In terms of time periods for bans and punishments, indefinite is used to mean "unlimited" or "without end". In other words "banned for a period of time without end". the opposite of "Determinate"

Ah the dictionary. It's true that "unlimited" can mean "infinite". But it can also mean not limited, or unrestricted. Applying this one word (unlimited) as a synonym for indefinite is wrong. Also, if you look at the synonyms of indefinite, "unlimited" is not among them.

You're cherry-picking what you want to support your idea, that permabans are not permanent. They are.

Grandis1 votes

{quoted}

Ah the dictionary. It's true that "unlimited" can mean "infinite". But it can also mean not limited, or unrestricted. Applying this one word (unlimited) as a synonym for indefinite is wrong. Also, if you look at the synonyms of indefinite, "unlimited" is not among them.

You're cherry-picking what you want to support your idea, that permabans are not permanent. They are.

No, you are cherry picking what you want to support your idea. Synonyms for Indefinite include the following:

1 for "Unlimited, Not Definite, without fixed or specified limit" are "unspecified, indeterminate." 2 for "Not clearly defined or determined, not precise or exact" are "Imprecise, inexact, indistinct, confusing, vague, uncertain."

and how it is used is very clear, thanks to the rest of the language surrounding it. I'll quote it all again with the source. As you can very clearly see (I even used bold and italics it for you) Riot explicitly used the "Unlimited" and "Without end" definitions of "Indefinite".

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1015978&page=1#post10180118

Recently, Riot completed an investigation into the account histories of the players on teams which are scheduled to compete in the upcoming League of Legends Championship Series (“LCS”) European Qualifier.

The investigation has confirmed a number of facts in the player history of Nicolaj Jensen (“Jensen”), including a consistent pattern of in-game verbal abuse, offensive behavior and negative attitude which require immediate action.

Jensen’s Veigodx account has been punished by Tribunal three times, including as recently as January 9, 2013. In fewer than three months since the creation of this account, the Veigodx account has established a consistent record of in-game harassment, abuse, and poor behavior: 58.8% of reports against Veigodx were for Offensive Language, Verbal Abuse, and Negative Attitude.

Worse, however, are the violations in Jensen’s gameplay history: On multiple occasions, he has publicly and unapologetically admitted to engaging in a series of DDOS attacks against high-Elo players. Here is one example:

Jensen has been permanently banned twice before. In August of 2012, a majority of players on the Tribunal voted to permaban Wizikx, a previous Jensen account. After reviewing the facts, the Riot player behavior team upheld the ban. Another Jensen account, Wizikodex, was permabanned in December 2012 for similar behavior.

**As a result of this player’s history of DDOS activity, abusive behavior and poor sportsmanship, the player behavior team has issued a lifetime ban on Jensen. His Veigodx account has been permabanned and all future accounts will be permabanned on sight. **

Relevant Rules The Summoner's Code establishes the standards of behavior for all League of Legends players.

Analysis Jensen has consistently disregarded the letter and spirit of the Summoner’s Code. His disrespect for the rules of the game is unacceptable for any player, especially a high-profile eSports competitor who has a regular opportunity to lead the community by example.

Ruling Jensen has violated the Summoner’s Code in a persistent and remorseless fashion.

**Competition Penalties Jensen is: Ineligible to compete in the LCS Season Three European Qualifier in Warsaw, January 25-27, 2013. Ineligible to compete in the LCS indefinitely; this suspension shall commence immediately. Ineligible to compete in any Riot-affiliated League of Legends tournaments indefinitely; this suspension shall commence immediately. **

If you really want to summarize what my idea is, it's that Perma bans are supposed to be permanent, and they should also be appropriate for the crime. a player who DDOS'ed his opponents should be permanently banned. The decision to let him play again does in fact show that a permaban is only NOT permanent if it deals with pro players, regardless of what they'v done.

ModPeriscope3 votes

No, you are cherry picking what you want to support your idea. Synonyms for Indefinite include the following:

1 for "Unlimited...

My apologies. It totally is a synonym! In my defense, I used your original source, dictionary.com. It is not listed as a synonym there.

They are synonyms; however, synonyms can, but do not always mean the same thing. Indefinite does mean the same as unlimited, insofar that both words can mean without end. But if you, or anyone, wanted to mean "without end" or "boundless", which word would you use? I think the answer is pretty clear.

Here's a more recent example of an indefinite suspension

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/12/22/14053134/grayson-allen-suspended-indefinitely-duke-tripping-elon

And the player was back on the court after his 1 game "indefinite" suspension.

Grandis1 votes

{quoted}

My apologies. It totally is a synonym! In my defense, I used your original source, dictionary.com. It is not listed as a synonym there.

They are synonyms; however, synonyms can, but do not always mean the same thing. Indefinite does mean the same as unlimited, insofar that both words can mean without end. But if you, or anyone, wanted to mean "without end" or "boundless", which word would you use? I think the answer is pretty clear.

Here's a more recent example of an indefinite suspension

http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2016/12/22/14053134/grayson-allen-suspended-indefinitely-duke-tripping-elon

And the player was back on the court after his 1 game "indefinite" suspension.

Three massive problems with your logic here.

1 - This is an example of people ONCE AGAIN not adhering to their standards, not of anything else.

2 - The player was suspended indefinitely from his team, by his coach. He was not suspended by the NBA or the CNBA (National Basketball Association and College National Basketball Association). If you want to compare this to League of Legends, this would be like team SoloMid suspending a player on their roster from playing on their team indefinitely. In such a situation it is not the overarching organization (Riot) barring him from playing, it is his team/teamowner/teamcoach that will not allow him to play with them.

3 - It's college basketball. And Allen Grayson is listed as the #1 pick to go to the NBA. Duke University gets MILLIONS of dollars for their sports program if they keep him playing, do you really think they are going to let their coach bench him when he does this? The big 16 college sports universities do not care if their team members are awful people, they only care that they perform well. This is potentially exactly what happened with Riot. Professional LoL players are to the LoL community what professional NBA players are to NBA fans, and what professional football players are to football fans. There are a significant number of people who would not bother paying much attention to LoL if certain pro players were to disappear. You see it through a lot of games in fact, just this last year a professional project M player (console fighting game) named Lunchables (I think) retired, and Project M lost a significant number of traffic because there were people who came simply to watch him play. The Street Fighter franchise has had to deal with this multiple times when any of their professional players hung up his controller. The difference here is that we are not discussing players who retired, we are discussing players who were punished because they cheated severely (Jensen) or were physically violent in spite of the spirit of the game (Grayson) both of which were protected from the very system that was put in place to make sure that they adhere to a standard.

Think about it this way, do you want people playing sports who are using steroids? Do you think any player caught using steroids should be banned from playing in professional sporting events for it? Do you want people playing E-sports using hacks or sabotaging their opponents? Do you think players who use hacks or sabotage their opponents should be banned? if you say yes to any of these, then why would you allow a player found to be guilty of these things, on multiple different occasions, to be allowed back into the game?

ModPeriscope1 votes

Indefinite is synonymous with unlimited, but they do not have the exact same meaning. I posted the article as an example of how another group uses indefinite.

None of your points address what I pointed out: your definition of indefinite is incorrect.

ModPeriscope2 votes

It didn't. His account is still banned.

Meaning the account that was Jensen's at the time was banned. As a permaban, it is still and will always be banned.

His ban on competitive play was lifted, and was never permanent.

What you, Grandis, posted supports this claim. He was banned from competitive play for his actions and has since been allowed to play. He has had to make a new account and level it up, just like any other permabanned player would have to do. I was slightly concerned when I read one of your links where it does indeed state "permaban", but again, the ban was from competitive play.

Grandis1 votes

{quoted}

Meaning the account that was Jensen's at the time was banned. As a permaban, it is still and will always be banned.

You are ignoring the " all future accounts will be permabanned on sight" and the entirety of the rest of the post they made. All future accounts means ALL future accounts. Here, I'll use MYSELF as the example. My real name is Sean. Let's say I make three accounts called "SeanyBoy", "SeanJohn" and "XSeanX" and I go out and DDOS players which gets me a lifetime perma ban where Riot declares "all future accounts will be permabanned on sight." this means that if I, Sean, create a new account called "JimmyCrackedCorn", that account will be banned on sight because "I" am the player who made and is using the account.

What you, Grandis, posted supports this claim. He was banned from competitive play for his actions and has since been allowed to play. He has had to make a new account and level it up, just like any other permabanned player would have to do. I was slightly concerned when I read one of your links where it does indeed state "permaban", but again, the ban was from competitive play.

"all future accounts will be permabanned on sight." does not state or imply that only accounts he uses in competitive play will be banned. It specifically states that if Jensen makes any other accounts and they are found, they are to be permanently banned on sight. The only reason the competitive play is mentioned is because he is a pro player, and thus MUCH easier to identify than someone like you or I, no matter how good we are. I can't fathom the mental gymnastics you have to be doing to come to the conclusion that "all future accounts will be permabanned on sight." means "he can make a new account and play if he wants".

ModPeriscope1 votes

Yep. He can make a new account and play if he wants. And I imagine he did. How could Riot enforce a "ban on sight" ruling? They can't ban IP addresses. The only way this would work if he was known to be streaming. Stop streaming. Stop posting about his matches. Basically fly under the radar.

Additionally, the DDOS attacks, while abhorring, were difficult to prove conclusively, I imagine. He did publicly say that he had, but beyond that, what evidence could Riot have had? Not much.

The only mental gymnastics I'm doing is in relation to this question: why are you so upset about this?

EndlessSorcerer2 votes

Firstly, those were both bans from competitive play (which is rather different from casual play).

Secondly, those were bans of "indefinite" duration, not permanent. Just because they didn't have a defined duration doesn't mean one couldn't be set.

themachamp1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=kFMa0lB9,comment-id=000400010000,timestamp=2017-01-19T01:11:57.491+0000)

It didn't. His account is still banned.

His ban on competitive play was lifted, and was never permanent.

It was till riot changed the rules randomly. back in 2013-14 or so.

Karunamon6 votes

I know that most of you guys will already decide that "you deserve it" and you're right I did but I have truly changed.

Cool! Then it is unlikely you will be banned on your new account.

CancerBasedGod4 votes

Stop pandering to random people on the boards about the ban you deserved...

AeroWaffle4 votes

I had gotten my main account permanently banned for foul language

Kinda doubt it was for foul language. Foul language is fine. Foul language used to verbally abuse someone is not.

So is it fair that I got permantetly banned without thought of getting my account back? or is it fair that someone who has hacked, cheated, and scripted gets their account back? who deserves their account back?

You didn't include a, "Both should remain banned" option.

Zombiemaster4 votes

Okay, your case (or rather your friend's case) is kind of weird to me. I mean, Riot does indeed lift bans and other punishments from players, but they only do so if the punishment was undeserved. It's rare that this happens, but it can, and when it does Riot is more than willing to fix the mistake.

Now, when it comes to your friend, you admit to personally knowing that he was scripting and cheating, which makes me believe that he was indeed and thus the punishment was well deserved. Because of this, it's hard for me to believe that Riot has decided to lift the ban and give him his account back, since I have only heard of Riot doing this if the ban wasn't deserved. What makes this even weirder to me is the fact that you say your friend is getting his account back next month. If Riot officially decides to lift a permanent ban, from my knowledge they would do so immediately, or at least faster than what you claim. I have never heard of them deciding to lift a punishment, but then wait a while before actually doing so.

Anyway, this is just my thoughts on the topic. I just have a feeling that there's more to the story than what's being said, whether you know what it is or not. Of course, I'm not a Riot employee at all, so I can't really do anything except state my opinion.

Grandis1 votes

I'm going to point out that Incarnation, the pro player who was banned in 2013 for DDOS'ing his opponents in live and tournament matches, was allowed to start playing as Cloud 9's mid laner in 2015. Riot has no standard. Riot has no consistency. Here, the following links are Riot's official announcement about his ban (it's the 2nd one on the list) and then the confirmation that he's allowed to play again, as Cloud 9's mid lane.

http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1015978&page=1#post10180118 http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/2015-mid-year-long-term-suspension-reviews

More from Player Behavior

The indefinite banning of Tyler1
Player Behavior4,799 comments
2,942
votes
14 day ban because playing Nunu Support with Smite is "stealing other people's roles"...?
Player Behavior1,525 comments
1,086
votes
Riot should add monthly status cards
Player Behavior241 comments
843
votes
Reminder that we haven't gotten our Summoner report cards yet :/
Player Behavior145 comments
619
votes
I'm not "triggered" by you throwing insults.
Player Behavior361 comments
548
votes
Black Alistar, King Rammus!!!!
Player Behavior462 comments
503
votes