A thread that if gets enough attention and response will hopefully lead Riot's development team into a path of a Permaban Relief System.I am sure there are many players suffering from permabans who have put blood,sweat,tears into this game.I am sure some bans are just and some aren't but I do also believe that those players very well may have reformed and matured.Post your story and lets get as many responses and get the attention of the development team!
Chermorg3 votesThe permaban relief is the chance you had with the 14 day ban you got before your permanent ban to reform. Once you're permanently banned Riot doesn't want you to come back.
Brichen2 votesHow is it a relief if you aren't permabanned until after the 14-day?
Chermorg4 votesBecause it gave you a chance to avoid the permanent ban.
Brichen1 votesYou really dont think that the permban hasn't opened up peoples eyes more than the 14 day or the warning?
Chermorg4 votesI mean, the 14 day told you that your next one would be permanent. If it took a permanent ban to open your eyes as to Riot being serious about you not being toxic, that's not Riot's problem.
Umbral Regent3 votesWhy should people need relief from permabans? They've used up all their chances, they've broken the rules enough times, and they haven't learned from any prior punishments.
So, tell me, if they've already had at least one chance, and very likely three or more...Why should they be given relief from their permanent ban?
Brichen2 votesMine was 14 day then perma.
Umbral Regent3 votesAnd why was that, may I ask? Although I could certainly guess - 14-day suspensions are only ever given to first-offenders if their first offense was particularly bad. Namely, hate speech, encouragement of self-harm, particularly rare cases of extremely inflammatory chat (and I say rare because, while I've never seen it, I'm sure it can happen), or gameplay-related toxicity such as intentionally feeding or trolling.
And if you did any one of those things, then you, knowing full well that you should not have done that, still did, and ignored the warning that your next punishment would be a permanent ban.
One chance at the least is more than enough chances to reform.
Brichen1 votesI was aware of that in the conduct report and I believe that its still possible to reform.
Umbral Regent2 votesThen you should've reformed after the 14-day ban, and before the permanent ban, not after. That you ignored the warnings and didn't reform is on you and nobody else.
If you really did reform after the permanent ban, take what you learned into a new account.
Brichen2 votesThat's a lot easier than done.Theres still no reason that a system cant be made for player to APPLY to the system and possibly complete a series of task such as apologies or any other ways of consideration.Its not going to be a "He wants unbanned,unbanned." kind of thing.I would never expect it to be that way.And I highly doubt your above getting angry every now and then.
Umbral Regent3 votesWhat's a lot easier said than done? Reforming after a telling punishment (like being kept out of the game for two weeks), or starting up a new account?
Because if you know what you did wrong to warrant the punishment, and if you know to be on your best behavior, then reforming should be a breeze. And starting up a new account in a Free-to-Play game is as easy as one-two-three.
As for the relief idea; asking players to arbitrarily do nice things with the promise that they might get their account back would not work. If they got themselves permanently banned, they're clearly not the type to apologize - or if they are, they're not the type to be sincere.
Beyond that, the proposal almost seems like a vainglory, misinformed attempt to manually nudge players to reform well after the point they already should have. For one thing, the phrase "a day late and a dollar short" applies, and for another, you can't just give a player a series of tasks and have them reform from it.
Reform is an act of volition. It's a person's understanding that their behavior is/was not acceptable, and that they need to change. You can't force reform. You can't hardly even provoke it, for that matter. You can only warn of the detrimental effects of not reforming, and hope that players get the message.
When you get punished, that's Riot telling you to shape up. If you don't take the punishment seriously, you're not going to reform. No amount of "go apologize to x amount of players" or whatever arbitrary task you can give a person is going to make them actively think that their behavior was wrong. They need to realize that on their own.
And if they realize it too late, after their account was permanently suspended because they didn't take their punishments seriously, ignored all the warnings, and kept breaking the rules - then that's on them. When they get permabanned, Riot effectively writes them off and says "you couldn't change, you can't stay."
And, lastly; no. Of course I'm not above anger. I'm even willing to tout that I'm always angry, all the time. But having anger and letting anger control oneself are two completely different things. I breathe, I bite my tongue (metaphorically), and I focus and do everything I know I can do to keep my anger in check.
But at the same time, I've got years of personal experience with anger and management thereof under my belt. I can count myself lucky, as some people don't know how to deal with anger.
Brichen1 votesIts not forcing players to reform or just giving them tasks.Its simply a chance.No disrespect but I dont think you have the concept of the post.I am not saying that Riot NEEDS to implement a system such as so.I am simply suggesting it.And I am sure many others will agree this is a good idea.Many players fail to realize that reports will effect them in the long run.Not just bans or suspension.But their reputation.I dont know how league is about separate matchmaking.But maybe sort of a system that puts players that go through this system into a certain matchmaking for a period of time.That way it will be easier to monitor if players are really reforming. I was and still am aware of the TOS but I really do think that if I personally were to have this opportunity (yes i understand I have had multiple chances) but as ignorant and demoralizing as it sounds I can say this is the only one that has truly opened up my eyes.I wouldn't be so concerned if I didn't put as much gameplay into this game and even spent money on it,whilst I know no one made me.I still think that if Riot was to give me this final and last chance,I would not take it for granted nor would I continue my ways.Again this is just a suggestion.Not a glorified "I deserve to be unbanned." I do plead guilty to the acts I have performed.And I do realize they were unacceptable.And I'm not saying Permaban was TOO harsh or anything I just think that if this ban was lifted(not just for me) but for multiple players it would really encourage players that aren't banned to even realize that Riot does mean business when it comes to things like this.
Umbral Regent2 votesSo, how would giving a player tasks prove reform? How would, what is essentially saying, "we know we permabanned you, but, eh, do a couple of things and we'll look the other way", give players an opportunity to show that they really did learn their lesson?
I can already tell that it wouldn't, no matter how the tasks are laid out, what they are, or what players are offered the lifted permaban. 'Cause Riot already tried something similar, and it failed horribly.
Riot once tried a test called "The Level 20 Challenge", where they hand-picked (and keep that in mind, it's important) a group of players who were permabanned, and, through chatting with those hand-picked players, felt that the group would be most likely to succeed.
Their goal: Reach level 20 without any actions being taken on their account.
95% of the players, all of whom were deemed "most likely to succeed", failed.
The success rate was abysmally low, and the failure rate critically high. And, again - that the group was considered most likely to succeed, pretty much meant that any further offers of lifting permabans for reformed players was off the table from thereon.
Lumping "reforming permabanned players" into a separate queue would not work (because, again; it's been shown that giving them umpteen opportunities to reform doesn't help), and Riot is strictly against the idea of any form of separate queue for punished players. They wouldn't touch the Prisoner's Island concept with a ten foot pole.
Brichen1 votesAlso note that there was still that 5% margin that did succeed although.And the "tasks" are just an idea they wont be the whole system.Its not in my power to create,I can only suggest.Do you truly believe that every person who has been struck with the Hammer of Justice has not reformed?I am not saying that Riot will just look the other way.I am saying that the players who were banned will still be on close watch.Im not saying all reports,complaints,instant feedback will be put to the side and they will start fresh as if they never did anything.And I think it would be wise to put something as to say a 3 month wait before even applying to the system. And these task wouldn't be something as simple as "Spend 24hours ingame without angry feedback". If I were to assign the task (and this is a suggestion) I would say that the person would have to go a month without breaking conduct and get 10-25 people to accurately say they've reformed.It would be on the player to look through their history and find the people that they harassed and(if the person was willing to) possibly play a few matches and that person could maybe comment on a post-game assessment of the "Reformed" player.I didn't think they would go for Prisoners Island.But at the end of the day everyone has despited something they've done and wish they could go back to fix it have they not?
bullgodz1 votes[{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jwfJiFG9,comment-id=00000000000100000000,timestamp=2018-04-14T03:24:26.836+0000)
And why was that, may I ask? Although I could certainly guess - 14-day suspensions are only ever given to first-offenders if their first offense was particularly bad. Namely, hate speech, encouragement of self-harm, particularly rare cases of extremely inflammatory chat (and I say rare because, while I've never seen it, I'm sure it can happen), or gameplay-related toxicity such as intentionally feeding or trolling.
And if you did any one of those things, then you, knowing full well that you should not have done that, still did, and ignored the warning that your next punishment would be a permanent ban.
One chance at the least is more than enough chances to reform.
So let me ask you this, if you tell a kid not to stick his hand on something hot, do you think the kid wont touch it again, just because telling him once was MORE than enough times? Or, have you ever made a mistake because you know, WE ARE ALL HUMAN, and let me guess, you probably never ever made the same mistake again in any way shape or form, right? I mean, one time making a mistake is MORE THAN ENOUGH TO NEVER EVER MAKE A MISTAKE AGAIN...You and the way you think is the reason RITO and LoL are going to shit
Umbral Regent1 votesIf you can tell me how someone would "mistakenly" break the rules twice - especially after already having been given an fittingly harsh punishment for breaking a zero-tolerance rule - then I might humor you.
As an aside, there's a difference between being given a set of rules, being expected to follow them, and suffering punishment for breaking them - and telling someone not to do something that is intuitively a bad idea, and them still doing it.
The former is a deal you signed up for. Riot gave you a set of rules to follow and allowed you to play their game provided you follow those rules. The latter is telling someone not to do a certain thing because, naturally, it would lead to bad things happening.
The actions that players take, and the after-effects of them, are the only constant. Player (intentionally or otherwise) breaks the rules, then gets punished. Person (intentionally or otherwise) touches a hot stove burner, then burns their hand.
The only separator is intentionality - and if a person unintentionally breaks the rules, or touches a hot stove burner, then they learn "okay, breaking rules/touching hot burner leads to punishment/pain, better not do that again". Those who intentionally break the rules or touch the stove burner are less likely to get the idea that doing that is bad.
They might, of course, if the punishment gets severe enough - 14-day ban or just really bad burns - but if you make a mistake that has negative consequences, human nature dictates that you learn from that mistake, and don't make it twice.
bullgodz1 votes[{quoted}](name=Umbral Regent,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=jwfJiFG9,comment-id=0000000000010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-04-14T18:05:26.279+0000)
If you can tell me how someone would "mistakenly" break the rules twice - especially after already having been given an fittingly harsh punishment for breaking a zero-tolerance rule - then I might humor you.
As an aside, there's a difference between being given a set of rules, being expected to follow them, and suffering punishment for breaking them - and telling someone not to do something that is intuitively a bad idea, and them still doing it.
The former is a deal you signed up for. Riot gave you a set of rules to follow and allowed you to play their game provided you follow those rules. The latter is telling someone not to do a certain thing because, naturally, it would lead to bad things happening.
The actions that players take, and the after-effects of them, are the only constant. Player (intentionally or otherwise) breaks the rules, then gets punished. Person (intentionally or otherwise) touches a hot stove burner, then burns their hand.
The only separator is intentionality - and if a person unintentionally breaks the rules, or touches a hot stove burner, then they learn "okay, breaking rules/touching hot burner leads to punishment/pain, better not do that again". Those who intentionally break the rules or touch the stove burner are less likely to get the idea that doing that is bad.
They might, of course, if the punishment gets severe enough - 14-day ban or just really bad burns - but if you make a mistake that has negative consequences, human nature dictates that you learn from that mistake, and don't make it twice.
***Why did you add words and stipulations of zero tolerance rules, when that wasnt mentioned in mine or your post I replied too..... Internet cuts out, grandma died so had to afk..... do I really need to keep going? We disagree on some stuff, cool, but at least have a rational thought about one time is too many times.... Go visit a prison, I think you would be surprised at how many repeaters that get life are reformed. *edit: Also, what fantasy world are you living in in which human nature DICTATES to learn from that mistake? LOL Human Nature is making mistakes, REPEATEDLY. Repetition is the key to learning. How many people learn to ride a bike on day 1? How many spelling tests did you take as a kid? So based on your thoughts, if a kid fails a spelling test, then fails again, he should just be thrown out??? This fantasy land you come from sounds wonderful though. I wish my human nature made me perfect at everything after only the first time. /humored
Umbral Regent1 votesWhy did you add words and stipulations of zero tolerance rules, when that wasnt mentioned in mine or your post I replied too...
It was mentioned, actually. It was the entire statement of that comment, even.
And why was that, may I ask? Although I could certainly guess - 14-day suspensions are only ever given to first-offenders if their first offense was particularly bad. Namely, hate speech, encouragement of self-harm, particularly rare cases of extremely inflammatory chat (and I say rare because, while I've never seen it, I'm sure it can happen), or gameplay-related toxicity such as intentionally feeding or trolling.
And if you did any one of those things, then you, knowing full well that you should not have done that, still did, and ignored the warning that your next punishment would be a permanent ban.
One chance at the least is more than enough chances to reform.
This is the comment you replied to, in full. I was asking the OP why they had only had a punishment history of 14-day ban into a permanent ban - and then outlined the most likely reasons for that happening.
When you break a zero-tolerance rule, you are punished with a 14-day ban from the gate, with any further misbehavior leading to a permanent ban.
Now, tell me; how does someone "mistakenly" break a zero-tolerance rule, get punished, and then "mistakenly" break the rules again, getting themselves permabanned?
Also, what fantasy world are you living in in which human nature DICTATES to learn from that mistake? LOL Human Nature is making mistakes, REPEATEDLY. Repetition is the key to learning. How many people learn to ride a bike on day 1? How many spelling tests did you take as a kid? So based on your thoughts, if a kid fails a spelling test, then fails again, he should just be thrown out??? This fantasy land you come from sounds wonderful though. I wish my human nature made me perfect at everything after only the first time.
So, when did we go from "being told not to do something, then doing it, then suffering the consequences of doing it" to "learning skills through repeated mistakes"? Your initial argument was "Tell someone not to touch a hot stovetop because it'll burn them, they do it anyway, get burned". Nowhere before now did you mention learning through mistakes, riding bikes, or taking tests.
Human nature dictates that, if you were told not to touch a hot stovetop, and you do, and it burns you, then touching the hot stovetop = bad and you don't do it again.
Since you can't seem to keep to your initial arguments, I see no reason to continue this discussion.
bullgodz1 votesYou quote yourself a lot, go look at my first comment to you.
So let me ask you this, if you tell a kid not to stick his hand on something hot, do you think the kid wont touch it again, just because telling him once was MORE than enough times? Or, have you ever made a mistake because you know, WE ARE ALL HUMAN, and let me guess, you probably never ever made the same mistake again in any way shape or form, right? I mean, one time making a mistake is MORE THAN ENOUGH TO NEVER EVER MAKE A MISTAKE AGAIN...You and the way you think is the reason RITO and LoL are going to shit
So when you get off your horse, understand that I was targeting your flawed way of thinking. Not the rest of this thread. Its pretty sick to see the reason why so much toxicity is in this game in the interactions on a forum board, and too boot on the player behavior board.
