Boards›Player Behavior

Punish buying no Sightstone as Support

BadDream··3 votes·735 views

As a main support and someone who watches LCS and Worlds I get that the vision game is very important. Season after Season I feel like I understand it better and see more and more how significant it is to win a game.

When I am not assigned to another role and I see my Support playing "Miss Fortune" or even "Pantheon", I often experience that they are not willing to buy "Sightstone" even though laying down and denying vision is one of the most important tasks of a Support. I never won a game with these players. You think the enemy is just magically smarter than you are but then you watch the Supp's items and you realize your Supp rather goes for a "Pickaxe" than for a "Sightstone" and has no intend to play supportive for the team even though that's what the role is for.

There should be penalties for players who do this because it is just plain trolling and there is no reward for the team and the course of the game in not taking "Sightstone". There is no better way for a Support to spend your gold. Everything else narrows your team's chances to win extremly. item 2049

24 Comments

Umbral Regent5 votes

I'm surprised this "issue" hasn't died off yet. Ahem:

#It is not trolling to not take Sightstone as a Support. There are myriad options for Supports to take, and there are some strategies that straight-up can involve abandoning Support items at some point. If you take issue with this, play Support yourself.

Kei1434 votes

Buying a sightstone is META. Not building META is not a punishable offense.

BadDream1 votes

That's your opinion. Mine is you are not playing as your role intends to. You CAN play jungle without smite, too. Are you able to kill Baron? Sure. Are you able to clear camps? Sure. But are you able to clear camps effectively and gain as much XP as the enemy Jungler? Nope. Are you able to steal or secure Baron reliably? No.

Same with Support without Sightstone. No proper warding like the enemy Support can provide. No sweeper to clear their vision. And so on. I repeat myself.

Kei1433 votes

that's META you are describing.

Most Effective Tactic Available

Sightstone is good cos it is indeed the Most Effective Tactic Available.

Not disagreeing with you that Sightstone is META. Just that not not building META is not a punishable offense, regardless of what scenario.

DestructoDave4 votes

I dont have a problem with a support not buying sighstone. I used to a long time ago, but you eventualy learn to play around the fact you have less vision in lane. Also, sometimes, more lane pressure in the form of better items just outweighs the need to keep tri brush warded during the laning phase. The only time I have an issue with a support not taking one, is when they are playing hyper aggressive when they have no vision. So, they are nearly turret diving, or actually diving, and have zero vision to protect themselves, and end up feeding. These are why you associate bad supports with no sightstones. Because they go hyper aggressive and feed. When I hvae played say, MF support, sometimes I need the items for more poke; its just better than worrying about keeping a bush warded since we arent going all-in. But if you are a Leona who plans on diving turrets, you probably should get a sightstone so that you can do it without feeding.

At some point I will pick on up; but you have to realize in pro play, vision is everyone's problem. A sighstone cannot cover the entire map; a support cannot ward the entire map. At best, they can keep a single objective or some very broad areas lit up. This is why even when you watch a streamer smurfing, they still buy pink wards even in low elo; its everyone's responsibility because a single support cannot keep the map warded that much. At best, they can keep their ADC safe, or something like baron at least warded. All that vision play in pro play comes from the entire team, and even the jungler, which ALWAYS goes the ward jungle item.

But yea, I used to get mad when I was a super scrub. But I learned to play around it. As long as they arent suiciding under the turrets with no vision, I understand if they want to get more AP or a dirk for harass. I get more annoyed at my teammates who never help with vision than I do suppots nowadays. The evolution of the game, I guess.

BadDream1 votes

Read my other comments. It is not about laning phase. You need a Sightstone in mid game. Light up their bot side, so you can push their lane deeper, clear vision with your sweeper and set traps, play confident because you know there is nobody in their jungle.

Not possible without Sightstone. It is the reason EVERY pro Support builds one during the first 15 minutes.

Kitty Cat Tosha4 votes

Your only argument is "because the pros do it".

Do you want to start punishing every build the pros do not do? Because that is the slippery slope you would have us on if Riot implemented your idea.

BadDream1 votes

Did you even read anything else than the last sentence? Honest question.

No, the Sightstone is something special because it enables the Support to "support" the team. If you don't have a Sightstone and just play any champ you want the way you want on Support you can just throw away the name and call it: "whatever you want, but you are not allowed to last hit".

Is it so hard to see that warding and clearing vision is one crucial part of a Support? Without a Sightstone a Support just cannot fulfill that role.

Umbral Regent1 votes

Boy, you have a lot of misconceptions about the Support role.

First of all, Sightstone is (as others have tried to say) not a Support-exclusive item. Sure, it builds into Support items like Eye of the Equinox, Eye of the Oasis, and Eye of the Watchers, but guess what; Face of the Mountain, Talisman of Ascension, and Frost Queen's Claim exist, too.

And, more than that, if we're just calling Sightstone a Support item just because their Support-Exclusives can build out from it, then why isn't it also a Jungler item? 'Cause, you know. Tracker's Knife exists. Bam. It is now also the Jungler's job to buy Sightstone, according to the logic I'm reading off your comments.

No, the Sightstone is something special because it enables the Support to "support" the team.

Is it so hard to see that warding and clearing vision is one crucial part of a Support? Without a Sightstone a Support just cannot fulfill that role.

I play Tank Supports. Vision is...Tertiary, if even that. I don't need vision to crush the opposition, or protect my lane partner. What I need is tools for engage and disengage, and I'm not going to drop money on a Sightstone to build into Eye of the Equinox when instead I could be better serving my lane partner with Face of the Mountain for survivability.

And that's just an example of the tactical options available to Supports. Sightstone isn't mandatory, and Supports can perform perfectly well without it.

If you don't have a Sightstone and just play any champ you want the way you want on Support you can just throw away the name and call it: "whatever you want, but you are not allowed to last hit".

Supports are still allowed to CS, believe it or not, most of us just tend to have self-imposed restrictions. Is my lane partner back in base? I'll CS where I can. Do I have good wave clear and my lane partner is half-way through, but the enemy wave is pressing our tower? I'll CS. While the bottom laner is present, we generally just hold back from CS'ing because, generally, they want their items faster.

(Also, Tank Supports and anyone who takes the Relic Shield Line kinda have to last-hit.)

Besides, amidst all of this talk of "what is the Support's job", nobody is going to ignore the greater issue here;

You're asking Riot to punish people playing one specific role for not buying one specific item.

That's insane.

Might as well be punishing any top laners who don't take Teleport next, huh?

Jo0o3 votes

I agree that it's an important item, but punishing people for not building properly is ridiculous.

BadDream1 votes

It is not the same to punish a Malphite who goes AP as it is to punish a Support who does not play supportive by only buying damage and making it impossible for the team to compete in the vision game.

Rester3 votes

Let's see. Everyone on your team can contribute one pink ward and at least 1 ward every couple mins. I hardly see sweepers much as is unless it's a trap-based champion like Teemo or Jhin. Yeah, you can get away without buying a sightstone especially on AP-heavy Supports.

BadDream1 votes

Have you ever seen a single professional Support take no Sightstone at one point in the game? (During Ardent meta it was second item)

I tell you why they buy it as Supp: Because it is NOT enough to use your trinket (which lasts not as long as a Sightstone ward) every now and then. Support has no wards then if he takes the sweeper. How can you lay down Baron vision or ward their entire jungle area around the next tower you want to take down if you only have one single ward and maybe one pink ward? Remember, your team mates have other things to do like farming and pushing that distract them from warding with you. To be as efficient as a Supp with Sightstone you would have to walk around with 3 people if all have 1 ward on CD and even then none of them has a sweeper.

Plus: I am Platin, not Challenger. If my team mates buy one pink per game, I am more than happy.

Edit: You don't see sweepers? Then you either play with new players or NA is a whole different thing (which I know it is not). Sweepers are crucial not to delete Teemo's shrooms but to clear their vision to have an advantage yourself in the area. PS: every normal support player upgrades to a sweeper.

Jo0o7 votes

Dude, nobody is arguing that sightstone isn't an important item. We know it is.

But it's dangerously unfair to start using the weight of Riot's punishment system to nitpick builds.

Imperial Pandaa5 votes

If you really want to bring in professional play then be more disappointed. Everyone on a professional team contributes to the vision game.

Lets go ahead and get it out there though. We are not professional players and some of those supports are autofilled. And some people don't effectively communicate. Pre sightstone I will ping my trinket with cd so the adc will replace my dying one.

Finally, literally anyone can buy sightstone. It isn't like a jungle item which needs smite to buy, anyone could get one.

BadDream1 votes

Even if all 4 non Supps contribute to vision as they should, the team with a Sightstone is still in favor because their warding will be much superior (if all 10 players are om equal skill/elo level).

Funny you mention that everyone can buy it. In every of these games I considered buying it even though I was mid or top. Sacrificing my own Damage/Tankyness for the benefit of the team. The problem is, people who don't buy Sightstone don't tend to tell you that they are not planning on buying none. As a normal player you just expect it to exist in their inventory, but when you realize it is not there, it is often too late. Crucial fights are lost, people got caught the 10. time.

Even an autofilled Support should be able to know that you buy a Sightstone. I mean it is a ranked game. You played 100 games to get there. Perhaps you are Platin and played 5 seasons. Still no Sightstone.

Karunamon1 votes

Let's consider the numbers a bit.

Trinket lets you plop down one ward every 60 seconds, and they expire in 180. At most, each nonsupport player can have 2 wards on the map simultaneously, since when the third one is ready to be placed, the first one will have expired.

Using sightstone would let you place 3 immediately, but it requires a back to refill them before upgrading.

A perfectly warded map would have 11 (2+2+2+2+3) regular wards and 5 control wards out per team. You can add maybe one or two if someone picks up a item 2056 from Klepto, plus another one each for anyone who took the zombie ward rune.

Everyone can buy item 2055. You buy and use them, right?

Conclusion:

Just because the support can have out one more ward than you can, does not make them your dedicated ward bitch, it does not give you the right to BM them for not following your preferred (or meta) build path, and you've been ingesting one too many teemo shrooms if you think that people are going to start getting punished for their build path.

meowwow72 votes

you can get away with building no sightstone if you have the zombie wards from domination as well :P

ModPeriscope3 votes

I'm with you on supports should ward, but not that it's a requirement.

Sometimes, there are greater needs for the team than vision.

BadDream1 votes

So +25 AD or +40 AP are more important than proper vision (+150 hp) which allow you to push side waves without constantly being collapsed on without vision? More important than catching enemies because you denied their vision with your sweeper? More important than being able to start Baron unseen and with the ability to disengange Baron if you could not sneak it? More important than tracking their Rengar/Elise/Twitch in Mid game at camps?

Edit: More than once I dealt most damage to champions as a Support and guess what? I bought a Sightstone which gives 0 AP and 0 AD. But it enabled me and my team to catch enemies and kill them, snowballing into towers, Baron, ... And it made sure that the enemy has slim chances to crawl back because we have superior vision and cannot be caught off guard.

ModPeriscope2 votes

I've played against supports that don't ward. Unless your team (with wards) is coordinated, you can't take real advantage of the lack of vision.

But I did say sometimes there are greater needs. I feel more often than not, your team will enjoy better/more vision, especially since that's what they're most used to playing with.

A blitz player once said it best- "You don't need vision if you're constantly killing them."

General Esdeath 2 votes

I want to agree, but then it opens the gates for "report Leona for not going full tank" or "Report Riven for getting a crit item and not lethality"

RogueWill1 votes

item 2055 and a really aggressive lane is all you need early on the game. item 3340 management will give you more than enough wards until mid game. Specially if you have priority. If they have priority, second tier gold generating items like item 3097 and second tier boots like item 3111 will give you more utility than vision.

Mid game, all players should be dropping trinkets and it would be your best chance to get a sighstone, however, if the enemy team is also not warding keeping item 3340 over item 3364 is also an option. Half of the times you scan the area you find no wards anyway (specially on low elo) and you simply carry a item 2055 with you all the time for objectives.

Late game vision is all about trinkets (and vision wards), not so much about sighstone.

Linna Excel1 votes

Yes, riot should ban supports for not getting sightstones in elos where people don't even look at the bleeping minimap anyways.

That's sarcasm btw.

More from Player Behavior

The indefinite banning of Tyler1
Player Behavior4,799 comments
2,942
votes
14 day ban because playing Nunu Support with Smite is "stealing other people's roles"...?
Player Behavior1,525 comments
1,086
votes
Riot should add monthly status cards
Player Behavior241 comments
843
votes
Reminder that we haven't gotten our Summoner report cards yet :/
Player Behavior145 comments
619
votes
I'm not "triggered" by you throwing insults.
Player Behavior361 comments
548
votes
Black Alistar, King Rammus!!!!
Player Behavior462 comments
503
votes