Would you rather....

JustADumpster·Feb 26, 2019·3 votes·3,641 views

I feel like this should be a landslide where people vote for the mildly toxic, good player. But these forums hold many surprises. Point is, Riot Games please fix your tragically bad punishment system.

68 Comments

FOR JUSTICEFeb 26, 201913 votes

see this hypothetical circumstance never takes into account the fact that good players who arent toxic exist. you dont even have to be non-toxic either, literally all riot asks is that you remain at least neutral.

besides, no one cares if youre the 10-0 challenger smurf, if you're being an asshat no ones likes playing with you, thus ruining the game.

R107 GamesFeb 26, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cc5VmI2B,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-26T20:02:16.985+0000)

besides, no one cares if youre the 10-0 challenger smurf, if you're being an asshat no ones likes playing with you,

False, thick skinned players exist

FOR JUSTICEFeb 26, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cc5VmI2B,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-02-26T20:22:27.097+0000)

False, thick skinned players exist

this is technically true but you get the point, as long as you're toxic you're already creating a hostile environment in what is supposed to be a game, purely for enjoyment, just for other people making a few mistakes. to amend my statement, the vast majority of people wont like playing with you.

R107 GamesFeb 26, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cc5VmI2B,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T20:28:34.343+0000)

to amend my statement, the vast majority of people wont like playing with you.

This is also an assumption

FOR JUSTICEFeb 26, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cc5VmI2B,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T20:40:17.062+0000)

This is also an assumption

actually its not, can quote riot themselves. players leaving due to other players being toxic is the entire reason for the IFS/tribunal existence.

R107 GamesFeb 26, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=FOR JUSTICE,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cc5VmI2B,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T20:42:11.189+0000)

actually its not, can quote riot themselves. players leaving due to other players being toxic is the entire reason for the IFS/tribunal existence.

Give me the proof then

FOR JUSTICEFeb 26, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=R107 Games,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=cc5VmI2B,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-02-26T20:47:37.881+0000)

Give me the proof then

need a few to find the post where they first talk about the IFS introduction, but sure

KoiyakiFeb 27, 20191 votes

Unrelated but may i say, youe name is glorious

ModThe DjinnFeb 26, 20199 votes

Biased survey is fairly biased. When you change one option to "dumpster baby" you're clearly showing a strong favoritism and inadvertently skewing results in favor of that bias. Let me present a better alternative:

Would you rather have a mildly toxic 15-0 player or a largely silent 0-10 player?

Mildly toxic 15-0 player.
Largely silent 0-10 player.

OtterlyLostFeb 26, 20194 votes

And the answer is still neither.

Jo0oFeb 26, 20197 votes

Oh this dumb hypothetical again.

VoldymortFeb 26, 20196 votes

i've seen this vote thing brought up before and it's as disingenuous as the others because you're assuming there are no silent carries or no toxic feeders and the way you're naming the second option "dumpster baby" shows where your personal prefferance stands.

Silent GravityFeb 26, 20194 votes

At what point in time would I be able to make this decision?

Can a 0/10 magically swap to 15/0 if they decide to mock you?

Would a 15/0 magically drop to 0/10 if they decided to not type for 5 minutes?

And, of course, you're completely ignoring assists and objectives.

SInce Odyssey ended, you only have 2 games with over 15 kills, and those both had 8 deaths, a far cry from 15/0. Even if the result of your poll was a landslide, it wouldn't change what anyone thought about your toxicity.

Are you a different person, worthy of different levels of respect when you go 17/8/8 compared to when you go 0/6/2?

Those games happened on the same day while you were playing the same champion.

JustADumpsterFeb 26, 20191 votes

I have three current accounts lol. Point is, it is better to be somewhat toxic but be an asset to the team than to feed and be polite. It is ABSURD that there are people that would rather lose with kind players than win with toxic ones. You can mute toxicity. People really need to learn to use the mute function and move on with their lives.

Silent GravityFeb 26, 20193 votes

You didn't address anything I said. Why did you click reply?

JustADumpsterFeb 26, 20191 votes

[deleted]

Silent GravityFeb 27, 20191 votes

Let's try this again.

There are X players at your MMR. This is the total player pool that the matchmaker can pull from to place players in your games. It doesn't really matter what the number is, we just have to know that it is a positive number. Since you've played matches, we are reasonably confident that this is the case.

Out of that X, there are Y players at your MMR that you consider "Bad". We are, for your sake, going to ignore that 17/8/8 games can happen the same day, same champion, same player as 0/6/2 games. It doesn't really matter what the number is, we just have to know that it is a positive number, and that it is smaller than or equal to X. Because you have encountered at least one "bad" player, we know that it is a positive number. You have also not been matched with anyone whom the matchmaker would not match you with, so we know that Y is not larger than X. We can also reasonably assume that Y is smaller than X because you're only complaining about a subset of your teammates, and not all 9 other players.

We now have the ratio Y/X that describes what percentage of players that can be matched with you would be considered "bad", by you. We know that this is a positive number, as Y and X are both positive. We also know that this is a proper fraction, as Y is smaller than or equal to X.

Now, when creating a match, there are 4 slots that are not you on your team, and 5 slots that are not you on your opponents' team. We can predict that your team will have 4Y/X "bad" players and your opponents' team will have 5Y/X "bad" players. As we proved earlier, Y/X is a positive number, so your opponents will, on average, have more "bad" players than your team.

So, that there proves that "bad" players increase your winrate, which helps you climb.

Now let's do the same thing for assholes.

X players at your MMR. Y are assholes. 4Y/X assholes on your team. You don't really care how many assholes are on your opponents' team.

Assholes are assholes.

Hmm. No benefit to assholes that I can find.

XidphelFeb 27, 20192 votes

I do use the mute button. I also use the report feature. I then move on with my life.

EvilDustManFeb 26, 20193 votes

C) don't take part in obviously biased polls

VerxintFeb 26, 20193 votes

Well this is a false equivalence if I've ever seen one.

Usually it's the 0/10 who's the toxic one, tbh.

Tele IIFeb 28, 20193 votes

Duh. Obviously 15-0. But if youre trying to derive some sort of opinion on their punishment system from this, youre sorely mistaken. Its a false correlation to think that people wanting a 15-0 mildly toxic player, as opposed to a nice 0-10 player, means that people also want the punishment system to go away. I feel like thats what youre doing, and its incredibly simple minded and a little bit devious.

rujitraFeb 26, 20192 votes

I’d much rather have a loss in a game than someone being a jerk wad.

Regardless, your poll is extremely biased. If you don’t want to play a game with teammates of your skill level, either don’t play, or improve your skill level.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I’d much rather have a loss in a game than someone being a jerk wad.

Regardless, your poll is extremely biased. If you don’t want to play a game with teammates of your skill level, either don’t play, or improve your skill level.

Just to be clear Leagues MMR is the only determination of "skill level" - One cannot "increase their MMR" without winning, you cannot win without your team... so your statement "improve your skill level" cannot apply because ONE person can increase in skill level but it not show in MMR - hens you are stuck with the same players... (PS: This is what creates a toxic environment :P )

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20193 votes

One person can increase their skill level on average with a lot of randomly determined teammates of an equal (estimated) skill level, though. You can't win without "your team", but "your team" is a meaningless notion when you are looking at more than one game because it keeps changing.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

You aren't wrong (just making that clear up front) but lets look at the context of what he said: If you don’t want to play a game with teammates of your skill level, either don’t play, or improve your skill level.

What he is telling people to do is quit OR improve (again, to be clear, "if you don't want to play a game with teammates of your skill level") You cannot improve the QUALITY of the match without winning. NOW re-read what I said prior

Also: your statement isn't entirely accurate, See a very recent RatIRL stream in which how many games were won in a row as a duo? seems he was hurting 8 other players rather then helping any

rujitraFeb 26, 20192 votes

You are matched based on your MMR. Your MMR is based on your play skill - not based on winning/losing. Period.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

MMR is affected by win//loss just as much as ELO is affected by win//loss (maybe to a lesser degree in both directions, but still) - Otherwise we would be seeing Bronze players matched with gold... OH s*** wait... isn't this season the only season (beyond S3) that its happened?

Pondering thoughts...

rujitraFeb 26, 20192 votes

Do you have a citation for that? Players have been matched across ranks since I started regularly playing in season 2.

Further, Riot has specifically said before that MMR is your skill while Ranked is your win/loss. Just because you think something doesn’t make it true dude.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

I don't think, I do my research.

Unfortunately its against forum rules to drop shit like that so best of luck on your research :)

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20193 votes

Actually, unless Riot changed their method massively over time (not saying it's impossible) they still ultimately just go by statistical analysis of wins and losses. That means not just winning or losing, but based on the estimated chance to win (if it wasn't a perfect 50/50 match) and the confidence the system has in its current estimate of your skill.

It's loosely (very loosely, at this point) based on the Elo system.

rujitraFeb 26, 20191 votes

Elo was a system that Riot used until Season 3. The Elo system is a chess ranking system, and the name has just stuck.

The MMR system is not and never has been a strict Elo ranking system based on purely relative skill based on wins/losses. It has been based on relative skill in games played - not whether the game was won or lost.

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20192 votes

I have never heard them announce any big changes in this regard though, and the Elo system they used really was effectively the Elo system used for chess, just with some maths to account for the fact that you have to somehow determine a team's combined Elo.

Would you care to point me to any Redpost confirming what you said? Because I remember (even though I could be wrong, it's been a while) Riot being fairly outspoken against individually tracking skill ingame because it may deter people from trying to maximize their chance to win, and instead incentivize trying to maximize their "reward function".

rujitraFeb 26, 20191 votes

They’ve been against publishing this, but to my knowledge it has since Season 3 been based on your performance relative to your team (i.e. if you performed the highest on your team you’d have much less MMR loss, and vice versa).

I can’t find the posts about the change from Elo to MMR system, but it’s not the same thing.

Silent GravityFeb 26, 20191 votes

As far as I know, wins and losses are the only thing that modify your MMR.

The different impact of any given game on a person's MMR is based on their MMR at the start of the match compared to the average MMR of all the players in that match, and how much the system believed that they would impact the game.

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They’ve been against publishing this

I could understand this. I'd argue it would still somewhat incentivize people to try to game the system as regardless of what Riot publishes, since people are just going to assume what Riot considers to be good indicators for skill.

I can’t find the posts about the change from Elo to MMR system, but it’s not the same thing.

I'm not saying you're wrong that the change happened, but I distinctly remember the "change" from Elo to MMR was purely a name change because they felt they had deviated too far from the Elo system (which is, after all, just a simple formula repeatedly applied) by then.

Shame neither of us has those old posts handy to get some insight… and it's definitely been too long to rely solely on memory.

rujitraFeb 26, 20191 votes

Seems odd they’d do a CINO (change in name only) but it very well could be. Would be nice if Riot would make an insight post or something.

ModThe DjinnFeb 26, 20192 votes

{quoted}They’ve been against publishing this, but to my knowledge it has since Season 3 been based on your performance relative to your team (i.e. if you performed the highest on your team you’d have much less MMR loss, and vice versa).

I don't actually believe this is correct. I don't believe that at any point your individual performance in a game has contributed to more/less points, precisely because there isn't a good way to calculate that that isn't skewed towards positions that tend to do better.

rujitraFeb 26, 20191 votes

Hmm. I seem to remember them talking about how them moving away from Elo was due to them increasing the amount your relative performance was involved, but I can’t find the posts about it hidden in the bowels of the internet. It would be nice if there would be an Ask Riot or a megathread about it or osmething soon.

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20191 votes

It doesn't directly say individual performance isn't measured, but their matchmaking guide at least seems to suggest that you can only gain MMR by winning and lose MMR by losing.

https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide

Currently trying to find some redposts on it shortly after season three, but it's not exactly easy to find stuff in the archive of the old forum : / So far I have found a post by Zileas about how matchmaking works from… 2009. Oh and an abundance of posts by players claiming to know how the system works.

Yeah, I guess just trying to just ask Riot directly seems the more sensible approach.

Tele IIFeb 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Hmm. I seem to remember them talking about how them moving away from Elo was due to them increasing the amount your relative performance was involved, but I can’t find the posts about it hidden in the bowels of the internet. It would be nice if there would be an Ask Riot or a megathread about it or osmething soon.

Are you sure youre not thinking of the mastery token system?

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20192 votes

I'm not sure I follow...

If you improve your skill you are much more likely to win games, as you win games your MMR increases, and as your MMR increases you will play with people with a higher skill.

One person can increase their MMR level and, therefore, one person can climb to the point where they get matched with better teammates.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

THAT is how it should work... (believe me, the way you described it - that IS how it should work 100%) - but unfortunately for a lot of people, that isn't how it works... at all

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20191 votes

What do you mean with that? This isn't just something the system is supposed to actively… do somehow. This is a mathematical consequence, and as such universally true. If you keep playing at a higher skill level you will win more games.

It might take a while, but the variance becomes a less and less significant factor as you increase your skill level further (if you can) or simply the number of games you play.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

You misunderstand, I am agreeing with you - How you explained it, that is how it should work, but for some 20-30% of players in every "bracket" ("" to be used loosely because its the wrong term but cant find a better one to use) while improving, aren't being matched with better players

TrulyBlandFeb 26, 20191 votes

Why wouldn't they though? Unless you are implying the system is actively discriminating some players there would have to be some underlying reason for that. I mean, if you had said 1% or something along those lines, I'd chalk it up to statistical outliers, but that seems way too much for that.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20191 votes

Computers only do what people tell them to do, I don't blame the system... for that matter, I don't blame the designer of the old system... (hope that answers your question without directly stating the answer to your question)

rujitraFeb 26, 20192 votes

That’s not how MMR works. MMR is not only affected by winning or losing. LP and your rank are only affected by winning/losing. But MMR is affected by your actual skill and gameplay.

ŚtrongMentalFeb 26, 20192 votes

Lets reiterate what the OP asked, Would you rather have a mildly toxic 15-0 player on your team or a 0-10 player that doesn't talk or talks very little?

with your responses: If you don’t want to play a game with teammates of your skill level, either don’t play, or improve your skill level. You are matched based on your MMR.

if both of the above are true, my statements hold water because I'd rather have a severely toxic 15-0 over someone not communicating...

JustADumpsterFeb 26, 20191 votes

Highly doubt it. Riot can hardly catch intentional feeding, I doubt they monitor much gameplay besides win/loss.

hrooza dota Feb 27, 20192 votes

most mildly toxic players i meet have those games where they are 0-10, just because they got a lucky 15-0 does not mean thats their avarage shit.

mean while a 0-10 who dont chat often might have another game where they are 15-0

if you are toxic i dont want you in my games idc what your score in that said game because thats for that game and i dont care about that game that ended