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Riots perpetual failure to adequately deal with the *actual cause* of toxicity in their community.

slowfiveoh··5 votes·1,928 views

Hello! Long time scrub here, with an extensive Information Technology, Psychology, and Philosophy background. I am also retired military. (Yep, I'm very old. However, if you continue reading, you will learn a few things, I promise.)

How are you guys?

Good?

That's great!

First, a bit of background:

  • I have played this game, fairly casually, since 2009. The concept is good. The art is good. It has a great overall feel for a Moba.
  • I don't tend to follow the meta sometimes, and often dominate in the process. (Sometimes not, but typically it works out. Peep my Galio jungle as an example.)
  • I have been here since the very beginning, and privy to the ever-present community toxicity, gameplay changes, map changes, etc.

With all of this being said, I am reaching out to said community to point out significant issues that have been philosophically considered, and mulled over with psychological and sociological emphasis. I do not consider myself a "god" of this game, in any way. However, I have enormous experience in the game, and a very in depth understanding of its mechanics, tactics, and structure.

So far, here are the issues:

#1. You cannot make a community derived game that emphasizes teamwork and communication without exposing said community to a variety of immature, and/or egotistical, individuals.

The Fix: Turn off in-game and lobby chat. Simply turn it off, as other Mobas have done to great success. Force the egotistical individuals to deal with their frustration, or whatever fantasy they have drummed up in their heads, by themselves. No more, "Gee I know everything and am a god, simply stuck in Bronze/Silver/Low Gold, and my opinion on builds/objectives/teamfights are totally infallible." Instead, let there be committed gameplay, and silence, outside of pings.

#2. You cannot then make it so that the more mature, and/or less egocentric, individuals bear the brunt of communication, failure in said communications, and terrible gameplay and teamwork (lack of) that emerges. This is not only an unreasonable request, but an indignant mandate. (No matter how many of you attempt to shift responsibility and response to the more mature person, you may not do so. They are not responsible for the actions, comments, or behavior of others.)

#3. This game is full of elitists with false, preconceived notions. A great example of this is, in fact, my Galio jungle. It is wholly viable, at any tier (I have a low Plat account with way less wins than this one, which I consider my eternally damned, albeit original, account.), and tends to do well. Not a single game goes by where I am not flamed and raged at in lobby, then raged at again in match, do extremely well, and then are told again, after a bevy of level 6+ ganks resulting in multi-kills, that my champ is the reason "x" is struggling. This goes back to ego, and the quoted commentary under #1.

So, Mr. Scrubfiveoh, what exactly is your point?

Well, do you want to see something silly?

This is for you troll types out there:

All you have to do, to completely break this game, is the following -

-Pretend to try. -Smile, and be nice in chat, while pretending to try.

  • Don't suck so bad you feed, but act like you generally don't understand what they wanted. When they start raging, report them, and say, "That's not very nice. I tried very hard. I'm sorry you are mad at my efforts, but you should be nicer!", then return to said lackluster effort.
  • Wash, rinse, repeat, and this game would be literally trolled into the ground.

Riot cannot quantify/identify:

A.) Actual effort. B.) Faux sincerity.

There is literally no way for them to identify this metrically. It is impossible.

Now, I uh...you know, don't advocate this. I just thought it should be brought to your attention, so that you can have a better understanding of the game.

Really, that's all it is. I just wanted to show you some things you may not know. Other than that, I guess I don't have much else to say. To be honest, I am sure this won't be well received.

I did try though. So you can't say I didn't.

Change is hard. Of that, we can be certain. Maybe. Maybe not. Unless you don't want to? Need you to be clear on this. It's essential that you do. So, please try. Thanks.

So there, we have it. How can I say any more? It's as clear as can be... Thanks for your time!

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/chinas-nightmarish-citizen-scores-are-warning-americans http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304811904579587691270500118

44 Comments

disregardable4 votes

The thing is, no one wants the chat to be deleted. People like the chat. If you don't like the chat, there's nothing from stopping you from /mute all at the start of every game, but you can't force everyone else to do that.

slowfiveoh2 votes

I honestly wish that was the case, but unfortunately you can be reported for not communicating. If Riot clarifies that this means just pings, I would happily "mute and scoot", meaning I would mute and play, all day, every day.

Appreciate the comment though, even if I already know people "like" the chat system. After all, how can one project their sensitive, boisterous, ego if they can't tell you all about how you should build and play with their 150 total wins?

Z Statistic1 votes

Nope.

[{quoted}](name=Slumber Jack,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=O6Ah45Mz,comment-id=000500000001,timestamp=2015-12-05T22:03:40.442+0000)

That report doesn't exist any more; the use cases were too confusing (that category was meant for players who refuse to cooperate, not people who are quiet), and no one ever got punished for it anyway.

Better just mute and scoot like you said instead of trying to convince us to cut off our nose to spite our face.

And you can just LOOK at the report options to confirm that.

slowfiveoh1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Menea Calais,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-27T17:55:40.399+0000)

Nope.

Better just mute and scoot like you said instead of trying to convince us to cut off our nose to spite our face.

And you can just LOOK at the report options to confirm that.

One response:

Automated report response. I should have clarified further, and that was my fault, so I apologize.

The automated system has no way of knowing whether or not you responded to pings or otherwise, and will simply punish you based on herd mentality.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

"herd mentality" doesn't impact reporting. The only thing reports do is trigger reviews. It doesn't matter how many people reported you, it matters how many and what percentage of games that you get reported in. It is what that review finds that leads to punishments.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

"herd mentality" doesn't impact reporting. The only thing reports do is trigger reviews. It doesn't matter how many people reported you, it matters how many and what percentage of games that you get reported in. It is what that review finds that leads to punishments.

Of course it affects reporting. The automated system responds after a given amount of reports, in a given period of time.

If you specialize in off-meta roles, and people take issue with it, which many invariably will, then expect to be reported, even during some wins, let alone certain reports during the losses.

Herd mentality is pervasive in this game. There are very few games that go by where if you do something off-meta, you won't get reported by one or more people.

Reviews do not occur until well after, and by then all Riot does is a reset on the count, and you start over again.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

Herd mentality might get people to gang up on you in the game, it might even get a bunch of people to report you. But the fact that a bunch of people report you don't change anything from a situation where 1 person reports you.

Reports don't lead directly to punishments. They trigger reviews, that is it. If the only thing you are reported for is picking jungle galio you are not going to be punished. What will happen, though, is that you piss off the majority of people you play with by picking it. And many of them are going to be either looking for a reason to report you or reporting you no matter what. So no slip up you make is ever going to go unreported.

I'm not sure herd mentality is even accurate here. People hate off meta all on their own. They aren't doing it because someone else hates it. You may be the best jungle galio in the history of the game, but to everyone else you are just a random guy ruining their chances of winning with a random pick.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

Herd mentality might get people to gang up on you in the game, it might even get a bunch of people to report you. But the fact that a bunch of people report you don't change anything from a situation where 1 person reports you.

Reports don't lead directly to punishments. They trigger reviews, that is it. If the only thing you are reported for is picking jungle galio you are not going to be punished. What will happen, though, is that you piss off the majority of people you play with by picking it. And many of them are going to be either looking for a reason to report you or reporting you no matter what. So no slip up you make is ever going to go unreported.

I'm not sure herd mentality is even accurate here. People hate off meta all on their own. They aren't doing it because someone else hates it. You may be the best jungle galio in the history of the game, but to everyone else you are just a random guy ruining their chances of winning with a random pick.

So your assessment is that it is no different for multiple people to report you, versus 1 person? The automated system process based on number of offenses over a period of time.

Reviews are only processed for multiple offenses. (Unless this is recently changed?)

The second point you state is certainly correct, which just shows a lack of objectivity on behalf of the sheep. That's all that that displays. Saying it is so, and has continued to be that way, does not make it right.

What people like and don't like is not the end all, be all of the game. People form all sorts of opinions based on biases, or a lack of well rationed or reasoned logic. The primary driver is ego, where said people maintain that what they think must be so, therefore they are going to report you. Again, objectivity is lost on these people. They are responding emotively.

I don't like LB being played because most people don't transition her properly, into late game, and her damage and effectiveness begins to fall off. However, I have seen people who were amazing gods with her late game, and therefore cannot let my discomfort affect every LB lock I see in a lobby.

That would not be very objective of me, and would be exceedingly egotistical of me if I maintained that it was true based on my piddling experiences.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

I'm just trying to explain the type of thought process of the people you are talking about. Becuase again, you know you have played jungle galio and have and can do well with it(I have no idea if this is true, but ill assume it is). You are just a random guy making a pick that if they saw 100 time 99 would be varrying degrees of trolls, people goofing off, and severely miss informed people. If there was a study saying 99/100 people wearing red hats are murders, how would you respond when you saw a person wearing a red hat?

It is also important to understand that the meta isn't arbritrary. It is the culmination of all the experience of the players. Also it is how we play the game. A team being on the same page is often more important than eveyrone deciding on the actual best course of action and meta breaking goes against this. Now that also has the potential advantage of being able to throw off the enemy team as well, but if your team is against you doing it that isn't going to go in your favor most of the time.

Don't get me wrong, im not the guy flaming everyone who doesn't pick the god tier champions in every role. My only conflict is where to draw the line. Because on top of those kinds of picks making the game miserable for people, they also do regularlly destroy a teams chances of winning both with the pick itself and the reaction it gets. You are right that what people like isn't the end all be all, but this is a game and riot is a business. So it also isn't a non factor.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

I'm just trying to explain the type of thought process of the people you are talking about. Becuase again, you know you have played jungle galio and have and can do well with it(I have no idea if this is true, but ill assume it is). You are just a random guy making a pick that if they saw 100 time 99 would be varrying degrees of trolls, people goofing off, and severely miss informed people. If there was a study saying 99/100 people wearing red hats are murders, how would you respond when you saw a person wearing a red hat?

It is also important to understand that the meta isn't arbritrary. It is the culmination of all the experience of the players. Also it is how we play the game. A team being on the same page is often more important than eveyrone deciding on the actual best course of action and meta breaking goes against this. Now that also has the potential advantage of being able to throw off the enemy team as well, but if your team is against you doing it that isn't going to go in your favor most of the time.

Don't get me wrong, im not the guy flaming everyone who doesn't pick the god tier champions in every role. My only conflict is where to draw the line. Because on top of those kinds of picks making the game miserable for people, they also do regularlly destroy a teams chances of winning both with the pick itself and the reaction it gets. You are right that what people like isn't the end all be all, but this is a game and riot is a business. So it also isn't a non factor.

I appreciate your candor in this response.

However, again I have to disagree on some of the points you make. Please realize I'm being respectful when I say these things. Ok? :)

#1. You say that "if" they saw, quite accurately. People outside of challenger/master should be considerably more humble than those who have mastered all the different facets of this game. There are no "studies", or any other informative metric to these people, other than their own experiences.

A survey of 1, is worthless, except for personal opinion.

It goes back to my LB example:

Just because I have had a negative experience with an overwhelming amount of people who play this champ, does not mean I can form a conclusive, well-grounded opinion of every LB I come across.

That is simply unreasonable, and would be me declaring truth based on data and experience I just don't have. There is no "red hat survey" as you offered as hypothetical example. There is only things that relatively new players have never seen, and are uncomfortable with. That's it.

#2. The meta, is, in fact, quite arbitrary, except for where defined by those who are indeed masters of this game. The pros play on a whole different level of competency, stratospherically above those in much lower divisions. In fact, the discrepency is so great, that what works in Challenger/Master, may not be the best for those lower divisions. We are talking about a massive divide of competency, understanding, and raw skill here. Ask yourself why Master Yi is so effective in lower divisions, but a brunt of jokes in upper divisions.

The simple fact is that many players do not understand the nuances of smaller data effecting the overall game. For instance, back to the Galio example:

His clear rate is great, and his regen hilariously good with jungle item on bulwark, particular in multi-mob camps (Blue, wolves, etc.). His E (Righteous Gust) gives great lane invasion mobility, as well as decent damage. His Q scales horrendously well early (I often splash carries for 1/3 of their life!), and applies a slow. Compound with E, and GG. His W utilitarian for whoever is focused. His ult (Idol of Durand) like WW, times 2.

Add it all up, and he's actually a hell of a solid jungle pick. In fact, I bet some pros could dominate with him, were they so inclined.

But people don't consider this minutiae. In fact, most people are ignorant to it. They haven't seen it, nor understand it, and therefore will rage like a baby, despite being literally ignorant.

They know only a select few champions, what their skills are, and how certain builds augment their skills or passives.

That's the rough reality of those who choose to report and lambast people based on their piddling experiences, and, again, ignorance.

#3. I understand you're not one of the "flamers", and that's cool. Sincere kudos to you. The problem, however, is all of the people that are, and the inference you make that "Riot is a business". I agree Riot is a business. Actually funded and controlled by a methodical, "thought policing" server provider out of China (Check out my links at the bottom).

However, there is very little sacrifice in telling people to be humble, or acknowledging that they have a severe toxicity problem, mostly fueled by ego, compounded with inexperience.

scazzman1 votes

{quoted}

I appreciate your candor in this response.

However, again I have to disagree on some of the points you make. Please realize I'm being respectful when I say these things. Ok? :)

#1. You say that "if" they saw, quite accurately. People outside of challenger/master should be considerably more humble than those who have mastered all the different facets of this game. There are no "studies", or any other informative metric to these people, other than their own experiences.

A survey of 1, is worthless, except for personal opinion.

It goes back to my LB example:

Just because I have had a negative experience with an overwhelming amount of people who play this champ, does not mean I can form a conclusive, well-grounded opinion of every LB I come across.

That is simply unreasonable, and would be me declaring truth based on data and experience I just don't have. There is no "red hat survey" as you offered as hypothetical example. There is only things that relatively new players have never seen, and are uncomfortable with. That's it.

#2. The meta, is, in fact, quite arbitrary, except for where defined by those who are indeed masters of this game. The pros play on a whole different level of competency, stratospherically above those in much lower divisions. In fact, the discrepency is so great, that what works in Challenger/Master, may not be the best for those lower divisions. We are talking about a massive divide of competency, understanding, and raw skill here. Ask yourself why Master Yi is so effective in lower divisions, but a brunt of jokes in upper divisions.

The simple fact is that many players do not understand the nuances of smaller data effecting the overall game. For instance, back to the Galio example:

His clear rate is great, and his regen hilariously good with jungle item on bulwark, particular in multi-mob camps (Blue, wolves, etc.). His E (Righteous Gust) gives great lane invasion mobility, as well as decent damage. His Q scales horrendously well early (I often splash carries for 1/3 of their life!), and applies a slow. Compound with E, and GG. His W utilitarian for whoever is focused. His ult (Idol of Durand) like WW, times 2.

Add it all up, and he's actually a hell of a solid jungle pick. In fact, I bet some pros could dominate with him, were they so inclined.

But people don't consider this minutiae. In fact, most people are ignorant to it. They haven't seen it, nor understand it, and therefore will rage like a baby, despite being literally ignorant.

They know only a select few champions, what their skills are, and how certain builds augment their skills or passives.

That's the rough reality of those who choose to report and lambast people based on their piddling experiences, and, again, ignorance.

#3. I understand you're not one of the "flamers", and that's cool. Sincere kudos to you. The problem, however, is all of the people that are, and the inference you make that "Riot is a business". I agree Riot is a business. Actually funded and controlled by a methodical, "thought policing" server provider out of China (Check out my links at the bottom).

However, there is very little sacrifice in telling people to be humble, or acknowledging that they have a severe toxicity problem, mostly fueled by ego, compounded with inexperience.

galio jungle. im gonna have to try that

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

galio jungle. im gonna have to try that

  • Start blue, for shield/Q spam on CDR. (I have tried golem, and because the CDR/regen is so effective, a smiteless blue gives you like ~10 seconds faster clear than a Gromp start)
  • Core some AP in the runes for meaningful poke on ganks. (I use my "Project" page, since Galio gets amazing armor/MR buff on W)
  • I run Smite/Ghost, because he is unavoidably fast over a ridiculous duration with those two, even a flash over the wall wont get away 99% of the time.
  • I go runic echos for even more MS, compounded with massively superior clear, and mindbending Q poke (I once instagibbed a Vayne from 2/3 health to dead with a layered E->Q combo, to which she said, "Really. How is that even possible?"

From there you can bulk up, but I highly prefer a Rabadons Cap to pad Bulwarks health return (Put it on your teams tank or engage, and watch yourself stay massively healed for the duration. Seriously. it's disgusting!). Then I'm onto a visage, etc.

You can get to something like 600ap and ~250 MR.

I like watching LB or other AP casters attack me near full build. Bulwark, and they literally do nothing but restore huge chunks of your life.

It's comical.

I hope this helps, and that you enjoy it!

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

In your leblanc example I agree. You can't directly compare that with jungle galio because they are not the same thing. I'm actually glad you used leblanc specifically as an example because I feel similarly about leblanc. But leblanc is still considered a standard pick middle. Galio jungle is not. If you were comparing leblanc jungle with galio jungle you would have a better comparison. Leblanc isn't off meta, she is just a champion you dislike. For me that dislike is largely the frustration from playing aginst her rather than anything to do with her strength.

People are basing their assumption on mostly their own perceptions, however they aren't alone in those thoughts. It is more than just a dislike, it is a statistical disadvantage.

The meta is not arbitrary. I am not talking about follow LCS or lose. I am talking about solo queue champion tier lists. And while they are somewhat subjective, they are extremely strong indicators of what is objectively strong. You made a good point about people who aren't masters needing to be more humble, but you also have to remember they are judging people of their own skill level in these scenarios as well. They are telling people to be humble, the people are are talking about are simply not doing that.

I wish there was a better solution to off meta like segregation. I do think people should be able to pick what they want. But at the same time this is a highly competitive game and those decisions have a massive impact on your whole teams ability to win.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

In your leblanc example I agree. You can't directly compare that with jungle galio because they are not the same thing. I'm actually glad you used leblanc specifically as an example because I feel similarly about leblanc. But leblanc is still considered a standard pick middle. Galio jungle is not. If you were comparing leblanc jungle with galio jungle you would have a better comparison. Leblanc isn't off meta, she is just a champion you dislike. For me that dislike is largely the frustration from playing aginst her rather than anything to do with her strength.

People are basing their assumption on mostly their own perceptions, however they aren't alone in those thoughts. It is more than just a dislike, it is a statistical disadvantage.

The meta is not arbitrary. I am not talking about follow LCS or lose. I am talking about solo queue champion tier lists. And while they are somewhat subjective, they are extremely strong indicators of what is objectively strong. You made a good point about people who aren't masters needing to be more humble, but you also have to remember they are judging people of their own skill level in these scenarios as well. They are telling people to be humble, the people are are talking about are simply not doing that.

I wish there was a better solution to off meta like segregation. I do think people should be able to pick what they want. But at the same time this is a highly competitive game and those decisions have a massive impact on your whole teams ability to win.

The contradiction you feel about LB is the same that others feel about off-meta "X", which is the point im making. What somebody, or even a number of people feel, dos not necessarily make it so.

Hell I had a Shaco mid the other day who wrecked a fairly good Lissandra, which should be practically impossible.

It may shock you to learn this, but I was using champs in roles that were "off-meta" when the meta was ADC mid, Ap/Sup bot, and 2 top. Then all of a sudden the champs I was using, who were viable there the whole time, became the new meta. Then they migrated again, somewhere else. Then they came back. Etc. ,etc.

The whole time, however, not losing a bit of their effectiveness in the role. It's like when I see people go mummy top. Yeah it's off meta, and not really my thing, but I don't think I have lost a game with a mummy top this season. (Meaning someone else was mummy top, of which I probably played ~3 games. Not a huge sample size, but still.)

The solution is to inform those with false preconceptions that they don't know what they have been led to "know", and to recognize that humility will better serve them.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

If you think what I feel about LB is the same as most others are thinking about galio then either you don't understand at all what I feel about LB or the feelings other have towards galio are not what I think they are.

I dislike a LB as a champion because she is miserable to play against. It has nothing to do with how good she is. I cringe when I see her because I hate her as a champion, but it in no way impacts me wanting her on my team. I hate things like galio jungle because they hurt my chances to win. You are looking at this with too much information since you know about your own play. I am saying that it is not reasonable to expect people to think that about some random person. To you, you are a guy who has evaluated the pros/cons of galio jungle and objectively chosen him as viable. To everyone else you are a guy who is picking something they have either never seen before, seen only used by trolls, or seen only by people who did awfully. It isn't that a game with a galio jungle or an amumu top instantly becomes winnable. It is just something that happened to make the game harder to win. You are the exception, not the rule.

What you actually have to watch out for though, isn't off meta by itself. It is people who don't normally play off meta but are. If you play off meta all the time you are going to be 50/50 like everyone else because your rank will have settled around your off meta play. If you play god tier champs only your MMR will be tied to those stronger champs and playing an off meta champ will put your team at an actual disadvantage.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

If you think what I feel about LB is the same as most others are thinking about galio then either you don't understand at all what I feel about LB or the feelings other have towards galio are not what I think they are.

I dislike a LB as a champion because she is miserable to play against. It has nothing to do with how good she is. I cringe when I see her because I hate her as a champion, but it in no way impacts me wanting her on my team. I hate things like galio jungle because they hurt my chances to win. You are looking at this with too much information since you know about your own play. I am saying that it is not reasonable to expect people to think that about some random person. To you, you are a guy who has evaluated the pros/cons of galio jungle and objectively chosen him as viable. To everyone else you are a guy who is picking something they have either never seen before, seen only used by trolls, or seen only by people who did awfully. It isn't that a game with a galio jungle or an amumu top instantly becomes winnable. It is just something that happened to make the game harder to win. You are the exception, not the rule.

What you actually have to watch out for though, isn't off meta by itself. It is people who don't normally play off meta but are. If you play off meta all the time you are going to be 50/50 like everyone else because your rank will have settled around your off meta play. If you play god tier champs only your MMR will be tied to those stronger champs and playing an off meta champ will put your team at an actual disadvantage.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to understand that there are no certain compositions that equal an increasing chance to win, or that something perceived to be "off meta" is in fact "off meta", and not just "rare" or "unconventional".

People dislike change, we all get that (Psychological Resistance). The point is that their knowledge, despite convention, is still not comprehensive, totalitarian, or ineffable.

That simple fact alone is enough to nullify this positive that "X" is correct and "Y" is wrong. Deferring that "most people think 'X'" is also not meaningful. Again, this is known as argumentum ad populum, and is a very typical social, or individual fallacy. What it means is, "Just because many think it's correct, does not make it so", and it is logically correct.

The combination, again, that ruins this game, is the belief in self-superiority, combined with a lack of experience, and a need to defer. Deference being another huge problem. Example: I played a game as Morg the other day. I didn't have a sightstone, and was only ~2.5 minutes into the game. I left to grab a vision ward [for bush control] and pop back into lane. I told Vayne to be careful, and that their jungle was seen coming down the river. She did not reply. Moments later, Nautilus pops out of the tri, grabs her on anchor toss, tidal waves her ass, at the same time Leona smashes her with Zenith, and Lucian layers her for the kill.

Her immediate response?

"What the fuck Morg. Where is your sightstone?"

Now, I don't want you to focus on the technicality of her response being wrong. Ok?

I want you to notice this was a preemptive projection of self-defense, all in an effort to displace blame, save face, and maintain egotistical superiority.

Now, understand this very clearly please:

This is the exact same thing as having said ego, applying it to preconceptions that are not necessarily true, and then raging when somebody violates your preconceptions.

It is the de facto inability to recognize you don't know all of what you think you know, and that you are immediately projecting your ill-held, unsubstantiated opinion as if it were fact, and expecting others to agree with it, and conform, or face your judgment and/or punishment.

Boom. League lobbies in a nutshell.

SmokedAlmonds1 votes

There absolutely are certain comps and champs that equal an increased chance and winning. It is deeper than just the champion selection, but also each persons ability with that champ and how it fits in with your team and against the other team. Every persons pick is directly changing the teams chances to win. People's evaluation of that change may be wrong, but it is still happening.

To me it isn't so much about the pick itself as the person doing it. They aren't trying their hardest to win. They are, at best, trying their hardest to win within a handicap they have given themselves.

I definitely agree about egos and everyone deflecting blame. The biggest thing I see that drives me nuts with that is people throwing out generic psudo advice while not really looking at what happened. I had my lane opponent roam bot and they just instantly started barking push mid. Which I was already doing but after I was still not at the turret after like 5 seconds they just kept saying. Paying not attention to the fact that I was pushing as much as I could, but was a level 5 lux with no mana. People love those little generic "tips" that don't really help anyone but make themselves feel like they are contributing.

Utility Backline2 votes

{quoted}

I honestly wish that was the case, but unfortunately you can be reported for not communicating. If Riot clarifies that this means just pings, I would happily "mute and scoot", meaning I would mute and play, all day, every day.

Appreciate the comment though, even if I already know people "like" the chat system. After all, how can one project their sensitive, boisterous, ego if they can't tell you all about how you should build and play with their 150 total wins?

Riot has long ago clarified that you can "mute and scoot" as long as you utilize their smart ping system. If you have been here since 2009, you should be well aware of this stance. Also, with the new report system Riot did away with "refusing to communicate"; in fact we have already seen players who have refused to type at all, and not been banned. Another good example was a player who complained he got permanently banned despite the fact he never once said a word and his summoner name was something to the effect of "I never type" and he got perm'd because he trolled non-verbally.

Your jungle Galio isn't non meta enough to warrant the level of backlash you are receiving, nor is it exactly note worthy either, its a champ that works semi-good in the jungle so you aren't exactly breaking the mold. I know your type though. You rock a Dominion exclusive icon, you're that guy that loves to go against the grain, but you aren't exactly swimming against the meta sheeped fish. Go run a no flash ap Jinx support and hit above gold and then come back here. Time of the smashdown. 12:17PM.

~Utility Backline

Smashing anti meta rhetoric while simultaneously hitting diamond 3 running Soraka with only Heal and Clarity last season. Been here since 2009 and I've never lost my ego. Now go make me some biscuits.

Daen1 votes

{quoted}

  1. You cannot make a community derived game that emphasizes teamwork and communication without exposing said community to a variety of immature, and/or egotistical, individuals.

Is there a reason this is a problem, at its basest level? Any activity that involves any level of teamwork, whether it be a video game or a high powered business project, can be exposed to immaturity or egos; it's basically part of humanity that teamwork is never perfect, since we're all very different people.

The Fix: Turn off in-game and lobby chat. Simply turn it off, as other Mobas have done to great success. Instead, let there be committed gameplay, and silence, outside of pings.

I really like being able to chat with my allies and enemies, it makes the players feel like other people rather than bots. The game would be a lot less satisfying for me without the ability to meet new people and hang out, and I'm just not convinced a strategy like this would fit the game. Riot expects that we can be adults (for the most part), and it's why they don't put a blanket censor on in-game chat.

  1. You cannot then make it so that the more mature, and/or less egocentric, individuals bear the brunt of communication, failure in said communications, and terrible gameplay and teamwork (lack of) that emerges. This is not only an unreasonable request, but an indignant mandate.

This is a strange point. When have the more mature players ever been expected to carry all the communication for the team? Teamwork is a team effort, if one person is doing all the work it isn't really teamwork at all.

#3. This game is full of elitists with false, preconceived notions. A great example of this is, in fact, my Galio jungle. It is wholly viable, at any tier, and tends to do well.

You're welcome to play Galio jungle, but if your entire team feels strongly that they don't want you doing it in that particular game it can end up being a bit disrespectful to play it anyway. I'm not saying you're breaking any rules or anything, but I can kind of understand your allies' frustrations if they are very against a particular champion/role combo and it's done anyway.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

You're welcome to play Galio jungle, but if your entire team feels strongly that they don't want you doing it in that particular game it can end up being a bit disrespectful to play it anyway. I'm not saying you're breaking any rules or anything, but I can kind of understand your allies' frustrations if they are very against a particular champion/role combo and it's done anyway.

I sincerely hope he does not get punished for Galio jungle. That wouldn't be right either... If that is the case then Riot allowing us to pick any champ regardless of role assigned would be baiting people to be punished.

Reaper Review1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-03-27T18:28:32.216+0000)

I sincerely hope he does not get punished for Galio jungle. That wouldn't be right either... If that is the case then Riot allowing us to pick any champ regardless of role assigned would be baiting people to be punished.

It's not about what the pick is, but how the four people who you're playing the game alongside feel about it. If the majority of them don't approve of your pick, and you go along with it, you're being disrespectful towards them.

At the same time, though, queuing with your friends and using your majority to play off-role/meta picks could present a feel-bad situation for the minority players.

It seems like a situation that doesn't really have a 'right' answer outside of saving the shenanigans for 5-man premades, but that's also a bit extreme itself.

Daen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-03-27T18:28:32.216+0000)

I sincerely hope he does not get punished for Galio jungle. That wouldn't be right either... If that is the case then Riot allowing us to pick any champ regardless of role assigned would be baiting people to be punished.

Oh definitely, I agree, but there's a fine line between picking the champion I want and working with the team. if it gets to the point where I'm basically ignoring my team to pick something, despite their clear objections, I'm now contributing to the negative environment the OP is so intent on resolving.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

Oh definitely, I agree, but there's a fine line between picking the champion I want and working with the team. if it gets to the point where I'm basically ignoring my team to pick something, despite their clear objections, I'm now contributing to the negative environment the OP is so intent on resolving.

Simply untrue, because your discomfort, or the discomfort of many (argumentum ad populum), does not have any basis on what is actually correct or true.

I have no issue with them stating clearly that they are uncomfortable with it, but a given player, like myself, who can analyze the other teams picks during draft, and see a clear exploitation that the others may not be seeing, will go with, and should go with, the player they are most comfortable with picking and playing.

Champion choice is not, and should not, be a democracy. You are not owed anything, and expecting something is simply a projection that you think you know best, therefore it must be so.

If every opinion on what comprises an "effective meta" was decided in a freaking lobby, you would never get consensus. The entire champion list would be banned, with relatively few exceptions.

As a team, it is incumbent upon you to accede to the individual wants and desires of the composition, and on your own terms do what you feel may best complement the team.

Again, give me a competent player with an off-meta champ in an off-meta role, over Jane and John Doe who can slap a visage and sunfire on Garen and facesmash a keyboard into feedsville.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

Simply untrue, because your discomfort, or the discomfort of many (argumentum ad populum), does not have any basis on what is actually correct or true.

I have no issue with them stating clearly that they are uncomfortable with it, but a given player, like myself, who can analyze the other teams picks during draft, and see a clear exploitation that the others may not be seeing, will go with, and should go with, the player they are most comfortable with picking and playing.

Champion choice is not, and should not, be a democracy. You are not owed anything, and expecting something is simply a projection that you think you know best, therefore it must be so.

If every opinion on what comprises an "effective meta" was decided in a freaking lobby, you would never get consensus. The entire champion list would be banned, with relatively few exceptions.

As a team, it is incumbent upon you to accede to the individual wants and desires of the composition, and on your own terms do what you feel may best complement the team.

Again, give me a competent player with an off-meta champ in an off-meta role, over Jane and John Doe who can slap a visage and sunfire on Garen and facesmash a keyboard into feedsville.

I disagreed with OP in his initial post, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on this issue. I ran Soraka Heal Clarity every game for 600 games last season and 99% of those games, by your definition, was creating a negative environment. I ended in the top 10 Soraka's NA, and the top 40 world. Not bragging but by that alone I contributed stats-wise at the very least to a positive environment. I ended diamond 3 as well. Nearly every single one of my games was met with clearly stated objections over my choice. Yet despite those objections I won enough games to put me into the top 2% of North American solo queue players. I am disturbed by this idea that I must listen to objectors. That creates a very dangerous idea that I can blatantly tell someone to not do X and if they don't heed my warning, I can claim they have created a negative environment... If someone mains a role and someone else tells them not to play what they have utilized to climb I think THAT player is creating a negative environment. You under no circumstance should be allowed to dictate what someone else should play, and that includes saying it in a friendly manner ie: Please no Teemo top, it will not contribute to our goals. That is more wrong than the player who sch luffs off advice and locks in Teemo anyways. That player likely has a very good reason for his pick.

In fact I encountered a similar issue in season 4 when I was testing anti meta strategies on a smurf. I even sent in a support ticket seeking clarification about whether or not I could be punished for playing against the meta and was met with the answer "as long as my intentions are to win, and I am being sincere in that goal, that I could not be punished."

slowfiveoh1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-27T19:50:28.503+0000)

I disagreed with OP in his initial post, but I wholeheartedly agree with him on this issue. I ran Soraka Heal Clarity every game for 600 games last season and 99% of those games, by your definition, was creating a negative environment. I ended in the top 10 Soraka's NA, and the top 40 world. Not bragging but by that alone I contributed stats-wise at the very least to a positive environment. I ended diamond 3 as well. Nearly every single one of my games was met with clearly stated objections over my choice. Yet despite those objections I won enough games to put me into the top 2% of North American solo queue players. I am disturbed by this idea that I must listen to objectors. That creates a very dangerous idea that I can blatantly tell someone to not do X and if they don't heed my warning, I can claim they have created a negative environment... If someone mains a role and someone else tells them not to play what they have utilized to climb I think THAT player is creating a negative environment. You under no circumstance should be allowed to dictate what someone else should play, and that includes saying it in a friendly manner ie: Please no Teemo top, it will not contribute to our goals. That is more wrong than the player who sch luffs off advice and locks in Teemo anyways. That player likely has a very good reason for his pick.

In fact I encountered a similar issue in season 4 when I was testing anti meta strategies on a smurf. I even sent in a support ticket seeking clarification about whether or not I could be punished for playing against the meta and was met with the answer "as long as my intentions are to win, and I am being sincere in that goal, that I could not be punished."

Holy crap...that's epic!

Do you have any videos of the gameplay in action?

On topic:

Were you not raged at every match in lower divisons? Did many not still report you when you did happen to lose, even though it was not explicitly your fault?

I'm going to look at your 'Raka. Probably a lot I could learn there.

Thanks!

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

Holy crap...that's epic!

Do you have any videos of the gameplay in action?

On topic:

Were you not raged at every match in lower divisons? Did many not still report you when you did happen to lose, even though it was not explicitly your fault?

I'm going to look at your 'Raka. Probably a lot I could learn there.

Thanks!

There does exist some videos as I played in Victorious Gaming's daily tournaments which were streamed and recorded for the first 8-10 months that their community did tournaments. I also was linked a couple months back to an old reddit post my friend found about me. My summoner name at the time was Soraka Heal Clar. If you look at my op.gg (if you know that site) you can scroll back to October 2015 and all of the 2015 season to see all my games where I ran heal and clarity. I only changed my summoner name and strategy cause during pre-season they got rid of Clarity on summoners rift. I was on Locodoco's stream for one game towards the end of the season as well where he was my adc, was on Tricks stream 3 times, and I'm flaking on the name but a top laner... I wanna say the guy who mains Riven, but his name is slipping. I was in his game 2 times last season.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

Holy crap...that's epic!

Do you have any videos of the gameplay in action?

On topic:

Were you not raged at every match in lower divisons? Did many not still report you when you did happen to lose, even though it was not explicitly your fault?

I'm going to look at your 'Raka. Probably a lot I could learn there.

Thanks!

I got flamed almost every game until players just started knowing I was "that guy who doesn't run flash" once I got that label people stopped harassing me and it became more of 1 in every 10 games my adc afk'd cause he wasn't going to play with a troll. I still however got mass reported frequently and would receive the report warning, but only got a chat ban and a 2 week ban because I made the mistake of arguing with those who flamed me for my summs.

slowfiveoh1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=0001000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-03-27T20:07:06.978+0000)

I got flamed almost every game until players just started knowing I was "that guy who doesn't run flash" once I got that label people stopped harassing me and it became more of 1 in every 10 games my adc afk'd cause he wasn't going to play with a troll. I still however got mass reported frequently and would receive the report warning, but only got a chat ban and a 2 week ban because I made the mistake of arguing with those who flamed me for my summs.

Yeah that label thing doesn't happen in Bronze-> Silver-> and even low gold. I don't ever use flash/ignite as personal policy, yet I do very well most games. Still I get an occasional, "I'm reporting you for troll summs", followed by a "Your recent behavior etc. etc." warning, after carrying and being polite in match.

Again, it's ego. Smug belief that they are challengers in a sea of bronze/silver. On my original account I find it childs play to lift out of Bronze and into high silver, but there is no noticeable difference in treatment/behavior by players I encounter. However, when people are unhappy with your choice of champion and role, or any other varying factor, they can simply be as noncontributory as possible to ruin your game, and often are. After all, they watched LCS and now they know everything.

GG?

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

Oh definitely, I agree, but there's a fine line between picking the champion I want and working with the team. if it gets to the point where I'm basically ignoring my team to pick something, despite their clear objections, I'm now contributing to the negative environment the OP is so intent on resolving.

I've sat on this for a day now, and I am still very disturbed by this answer. As an Arbiter your answers hold a lot more weight and you are giving off the impression that if all 4 of my teammates really want me to play Braum, but I pick the opposite of Braum then I am creating a negative experience. The next step after providing a negative experience is the basis to building a case against a summoner that they are being toxic; enough toxicity is the basis for punishment. That is such a scary sentiment to give to those reading this, who could then go into ranked with the backing of an arbiter, and use your quote to force team comps rather than working with each other to get a democratically built team comp. I don't care if I am playing with 4 Riot employees on a game that determines my eligibility into the LCS, if I want to play a champ that my team objects to its because they don't understand my strengths and thought process on that champion. I can't imagine a champion select where everyone is held hostage to popular opinion.

Daen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=0001000000010001,timestamp=2016-03-28T22:40:22.968+0000)

you are giving off the impression that if all 4 of my teammates really want me to play Braum, but I pick the opposite of Braum then I am creating a negative experience. The next step after providing a negative experience is the basis to building a case against a summoner that they are being toxic; enough toxicity is the basis for punishment.

That definitely wasn't my intent, and I apologize that my comment came across that way. I never want to discourage people from playing off meta champions, but I wanted to offer some counterpoint to the OP's approach.

That is such a scary sentiment to give to those reading this, who could then go into ranked with the backing of an arbiter, and use your quote to force team comps rather than working with each other to get a democratically built team comp.

This works both ways. It can be inconsiderate of the OP's allies to immediately dismiss the jungle Galio pick, but it can also be inconsiderate of the OP to overrule those objections and do it anyway. There's a certain balance to this sort of idea, where people naturally figure out where to draw the line.

TL;DR: Is it against the rules to go off meta? Absolutely not. Can it possibly be something that contributes to a negative environment, if the person going off meta isn't willing to compromise or listen to the team? Absolutely.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

That definitely wasn't my intent, and I apologize that my comment came across that way. I never want to discourage people from playing off meta champions, but I wanted to offer some counterpoint to the OP's approach.

This works both ways. It can be inconsiderate of the OP's allies to immediately dismiss the jungle Galio pick, but it can also be inconsiderate of the OP to overrule those objections and do it anyway. There's a certain balance to this sort of idea, where people naturally figure out where to draw the line.

TL;DR: Is it against the rules to go off meta? Absolutely not. Can it possibly be something that contributes to a negative environment, if the person going off meta isn't willing to compromise or listen to the team? Absolutely.

So lets say the only way a summoner contributes to a negative experience is by playing Janna support every time he is support. Regardless of kda, win loss, or any other factor. Even for arguments sake, he literally does nothing else "toxic". Lets even say that every single game he plays all four of his teammates clearly object to him playing Janna and request he plays anything else. Can he be banned for always running Janna? That's the only thing that disturbs me, because if that is the case then Riots definition has gone farrrr and beyond what I consider to be a fair and just system.

Daen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=000100000001000100000000,timestamp=2016-03-28T23:51:29.305+0000)

So lets say the only way a summoner contributes to a negative experience is by playing Janna support every time he is support. Regardless of kda, win loss, or any other factor. Even for arguments sake, he literally does nothing else "toxic". Lets even say that every single game he plays all four of his teammates clearly object to him playing Janna and request he plays anything else.

The example here isn't necessarily valid, seeing as Janna is one of the strongest and most meta supports in the game. A better example might be a player that exclusively plays support Shaco, regardless of collaboration or what the team needs.

Can he be banned for always running Janna? That's the only thing that disturbs me, because if that is the case then Riots definition has gone farrrr and beyond what I consider to be a fair and just system.

Either way, the answer here is no. Maining support Shaco is not a reportable offense, but intentionally ignoring your team during champion selection can be. They are essentially two different variables being viewed as the same problem; the first part isn't an issue at all but it can potentially be a vehicle for the second, and it's the second variable (refusing to collaborate) that can create a negative environment.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

The example here isn't necessarily valid, seeing as Janna is one of the strongest and most meta supports in the game. A better example might be a player that exclusively plays support Shaco, regardless of collaboration or what the team needs.

Either way, the answer here is no. Maining support Shaco is not a reportable offense, but intentionally ignoring your team during champion selection can be. They are essentially two different variables being viewed as the same problem; the first part isn't an issue at all but it can potentially be a vehicle for the second, and it's the second variable (refusing to collaborate) that can create a negative environment.

Yeah my bad. Janna was a bad example. Okay so lets say every game people ask him nicely to not go support Shaco, and he answers nicely in return that he mains support Shaco. He does this every game for the entire season. Can he be punished? I ask because I played almost nothing but Soraka with no flash running heal and clarity, and I faced a barrage of hate/criticism, I also did get a fair share of trust as well, but I'll focus on the negative side of this story. I only ever got punished due to responding to the haters, and a Riot employee who handled my support ticket told me as long as I am trying and express verbally that my strategy is valid, that I would never be punished for running Soraka with heal and clarity. In fact I'm pretty sure if I didn't say a single word I wasn't going to be punished either. This is sort of what prompted me to challenge what you said previously cause I am a player who is known to do my own thing regardless of what people want.

For instance I only ever play utility backline champions. I try my hardest every game but I will never play anything but Soraka, Janna, Sona, Bard where I max W first. I believe firmly that my prowess on backliners will win me more games than ever conceding to popular opinion and locking in Ezreal, or Alistar, or anything that isn't a utility backliner. And I don't believe I should ever have to bow to what someone else wants. I feel I would be creating a negative environment by playing Draven for the first time in 6 yrs over Sona who I have in my top 3 champ pool...

Daen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=00010000000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-29T03:34:32.821+0000)

Okay so lets say every game people ask him nicely to not go support Shaco, and he answers nicely in return that he mains support Shaco. He does this every game for the entire season. Can he be punished?

Absolutely not. I apologize for the lack of clarity so far in this string, the problem is that I've been conflating two entirely separate details. I'm going to copy part of the response I gave to Tammith, just to outline where I'm at with this:

  1. Picking an off-meta champion/role
  2. Intentionally refusing to collaborate or listen to the team

Part one is what you do, and it's completely fine. There is no possible way this alone would result in any punishment, and it's actually how a lot of really interesting strategies come to light. Part two is what I was sort of getting at with this; I've seen numerous players use off-meta as an excuse to troll people or ignore everything then claim it's not a problem, and I just wanted to shed some light on that distinction.

Utility Backline1 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely not. I apologize for the lack of clarity so far in this string, the problem is that I've been conflating two entirely separate details. I'm going to copy part of the response I gave to Tammith, just to outline where I'm at with this:

  1. Picking an off-meta champion/role
  2. Intentionally refusing to collaborate or listen to the team

Part one is what you do, and it's completely fine. There is no possible way this alone would result in any punishment, and it's actually how a lot of really interesting strategies come to light. Part two is what I was sort of getting at with this; I've seen numerous players use off-meta as an excuse to troll people or ignore everything then claim it's not a problem, and I just wanted to shed some light on that distinction.

Ah okay. Thank you. I appreciate you clarifying this.

Daen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=0001000000010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-29T04:27:35.683+0000)

Ah okay. Thank you. I appreciate you clarifying this.

No problem, thanks for bearing with me. :P

Tammith1 votes

{quoted}

The example here isn't necessarily valid, seeing as Janna is one of the strongest and most meta supports in the game. A better example might be a player that exclusively plays support Shaco, regardless of collaboration or what the team needs.

Either way, the answer here is no. Maining support Shaco is not a reportable offense, but intentionally ignoring your team during champion selection can be. They are essentially two different variables being viewed as the same problem; the first part isn't an issue at all but it can potentially be a vehicle for the second, and it's the second variable (refusing to collaborate) that can create a negative environment.

I have a problem with this, recently I have been playing a ton of support Fizz. I also often times don't speak to my team mates I prefer to use the built in ping feature. I can't imagine being banned or punished for just playing what I want to play.

I should not have to explain myself to anyone If I come home and want to jam some music and play support Fizz so long as I am not feeding on purpose or afk there should be ZERO way for me to be in trouble. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone why I am doing something I shouldn't need permission from strangers to play the champion I want to play nor should I have to tell them why I want to play it.

Daen1 votes

{quoted}

I have a problem with this, recently I have been playing a ton of support Fizz. I also often times don't speak to my team mates I prefer to use the built in ping feature. I can't imagine being banned or punished for just playing what I want to play.

I should not have to explain myself to anyone If I come home and want to jam some music and play support Fizz so long as I am not feeding on purpose or afk there should be ZERO way for me to be in trouble. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone why I am doing something I shouldn't need permission from strangers to play the champion I want to play nor should I have to tell them why I want to play it.

The point I'm (apparently failing at) making is that the issue the OP brings up here is comprised of two separate pieces that are being conflated and making things difficult. Here are the two parts:

  1. Picking an off-meta champion/role
  2. Intentionally refusing to collaborate or listen to the team

The first part is completely fine in League of Legends. In the example you gave, with support Fizz, that's completely within the rules and not a problem. Part two is where things become problematic, because it can contribute to a pretty terrible environment. An example of this might be someone deciding to screw the meta and go double top or double jungle, despite the other members of the team having already picked their champions/strategies and being very against it.

The issue I'm attempting to bring to light for this particular thread is that I've seen players use part one as an excuse for part two, and I just want to make sure we're clear on the distinction between them.

Tammith1 votes

{quoted}

The point I'm (apparently failing at) making is that the issue the OP brings up here is comprised of two separate pieces that are being conflated and making things difficult. Here are the two parts:

  1. Picking an off-meta champion/role
  2. Intentionally refusing to collaborate or listen to the team

The first part is completely fine in League of Legends. In the example you gave, with support Fizz, that's completely within the rules and not a problem. Part two is where things become problematic, because it can contribute to a pretty terrible environment. An example of this might be someone deciding to screw the meta and go double top or double jungle, despite the other members of the team having already picked their champions/strategies and being very against it.

The issue I'm attempting to bring to light for this particular thread is that I've seen players use part one as an excuse for part two, and I just want to make sure we're clear on the distinction between them.

So if I play support Fizz so long as I am not completely wrecking the meta without communicating, such as supporting the mid lane or jungle then I am fine to just play Fizz and support and not talk to anyone.

Daen1 votes

{quoted}

So if I play support Fizz so long as I am not completely wrecking the meta without communicating, such as supporting the mid lane or jungle then I am fine to just play Fizz and support and not talk to anyone.

Yep! It's always recommended to communicate when necessary, of course, but not doing so won't be grounds for any sort of punishment as long as it isn't malicious.

slowfiveoh1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Utility Backline,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=c1eMUocw,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-03-27T18:28:32.216+0000)

I sincerely hope he does not get punished for Galio jungle. That wouldn't be right either... If that is the case then Riot allowing us to pick any champ regardless of role assigned would be baiting people to be punished.

This is along the exact lines of what my primary point is.

The system is nurturing to cliques, and sheep-mentality punishments. It's like letting a bunch of 12 year old children decide law, without having the requisite knowledge to make highly informed, and considerate decisions.

It's fostering the toxicity by leaving the decision making up to a combination of people who don't have the maturity/experience to make informed decisions, compounded with dumping said decisions into an automated system.

slowfiveoh1 votes

{quoted}

Is there a reason this is a problem, at its basest level? Any activity that involves any level of teamwork, whether it be a video game or a high powered business project, can be exposed to immaturity or egos; it's basically part of humanity that teamwork is never perfect, since we're all very different people.

I really like being able to chat with my allies and enemies, it makes the players feel like other people rather than bots. The game would be a lot less satisfying for me without the ability to meet new people and hang out, and I'm just not convinced a strategy like this would fit the game. Riot expects that we can be adults (for the most part), and it's why they don't put a blanket censor on in-game chat.

This is a strange point. When have the more mature players ever been expected to carry all the communication for the team? Teamwork is a team effort, if one person is doing all the work it isn't really teamwork at all.

You're welcome to play Galio jungle, but if your entire team feels strongly that they don't want you doing it in that particular game it can end up being a bit disrespectful to play it anyway. I'm not saying you're breaking any rules or anything, but I can kind of understand your allies' frustrations if they are very against a particular champion/role combo and it's done anyway.

Hello Daen,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Let me go ahead and give you a meaningful response in return:

#1. The reason it is a problem, is primarily because the person on the other side of the screen has no idea to who, or what they are talking to, and should not declare themselves lord and masters of all before, during, or after a match. To do so is an immediate projection of ego, and a sense that you are superior in every way. The best methodology is to say, "How can I help", and not engage in histrionics and "Fucking noob, where is your 'X'!!" However, this is the exception, and not the rule. After ~4000+ total games played, it's a bit insulting for example, to hear from a 1/9/0 Jinx with 125 wins that I need to do "X", while they refuse to build pen against a Malph/Naut/Leona comp, deep stacked on armor. Particularly when you hit post game lobby, and try to politely point out that said Jinx had 1/4 your damage, as Galio jungle, and that the tactical element of Malph/Leona/Naut's unchallenged armor superiority was an overwhelming contributor to their success.

Understand?

People generally lack the prerequisite, highly informed knowledge necessary to make appropriate recommendations in Bronze/Silver/Gold. I am sorry, but that is just a fact. On occasion I meet people who are informed, but the overwhelming reality is that a good 99% within specified divisions simply are not.

I have noticed that this is almost not an issue at all in Plat, as people have a superior understanding of the game fundamentals, and can nurture a players buildpath by also building to augment their teams strengths, or counterbuild properly.

#2. I understand what you mean, but even if a total removal of the chat system was not done, it would be good (Like in HoTS) to eliminate cross team banter.

The reality is that there is more "Fuck you noob," and "rekt", than "Hey that was a nice hook, gg!" While I appreciate non-egotistical cross-chat, the reality is that it is exceedingly rare.

#3. It is not a strange point at all, because it points out that a persons ability to respond to false, egregious, or inflammatory commentary must be of the highest form of courtesy, disallowing proportional response.

This is about equality, and recognition of being slighted or wronged.

I wholly agree that somebody running around being toxic, unsolicited, should be dealt with. However, the reality is that so long as the team buys into the dramatic discourse or commentary of the person, or likewise believes you "need 'X' to be succesful", you are done, and going straight to the report bin.

That's it, that's all there is to it.

People are often trolled by ignorant asses, day in, day out, and when they finally say, "Hey, stop being an asshole to me", a psychological process known as Group Polarization occurs. What follows, regardless the persons guilt or innocence, is a bevy of clique sourced reports that get sent through an automated process. This will be based on observed factors such as players KDA, recent ganks/tower dives, etc.

The problem with this is that it doesn't display all of the actual information, and instead of using said teamwork to ameliorate, it instantly descends into a flippantly childlike blame game.

Think about that.

I promise you that Group Polarization is very real, alive, and kicking furiously in Mobas, and a primary, driving factor in the communities overwhelming toxicity. It is then fed through a system of laziness, and good people are punished.

#4. I notice an enormous problem with your position here:

A.) People do not, and cannot dictate who someone wants to play. B.) Their discomfort is irrelevant. C.) Ignoring their discomfort is exactly equal to them ignoring the comfort in your decision.

Despite it being a team game, the teams are comprised of individuals with individual competences and desires. Matchmaking is, effectively, a roll of the competency dice. If someone can only play LB mid, I would prefer they do that then telling them we need a Swain mid, regardless what the team consensus is, or others mandating that Swain must be mid.

Give me a facewrecking off-meta champ played by a highly competent and skilled player over a turd who knows how to build a sunfire and visage on Garen. Outside of statistics, which won't tell the whole story anyways, you have no way of actually knowing what said persons competency actually is, and your recommendation is based on a very limited set of things that you may know about the game, that may not necessarily be true.

Savvy?

Thank you for at least thinking through your position, however, I appreciate it in lieu of drool, and unintellectual retorts.

Cheers!

70640285DEL11 votes

This might be the most reasonable, well-thought out post on the subject on all the boards. The fact that it has been driven into the ground with downvotes proves that people are simply not willing to entertain the notion that "toxicity" is worse in the context of ones ACTIONS rather than ones WORDS. Thanks for posting!

slowfiveoh2 votes

{quoted}

This might be the most reasonable, well-thought out post on the subject on all the boards. The fact that it has been driven into the ground with downvotes proves that people are simply not willing to entertain the notion that "toxicity" is worse in the context of ones ACTIONS rather than ones WORDS. Thanks for posting!

Thank you so much for saying so!

One of my greatest objections is the laziness of the host to find ways to combat this methodical action-driven ruination of this game. They keep finding any and all reasons to fix the toxicity, except for where it actually feeds, and breeds.

What happens, is you get genuine assholes who want to cruise around, ruining peoples games, who are justifiably told, "Hey stop being a little dramatic social game playing, system exploiting jerk!"

Ruh roh! They ruined your game, trolled everyone, and raged at you, but you responded, and justifiably so. Because someone on the team duo'd with them, or, simply holds the same opinion, boom, you're done.

Welcome to Reportsville.

You lay down ~70k damage (twice anybody on either team), soaked 35k, killed three top turrets in 11 minutes, and started the game 5/0. Yet you didn't do or build "X", and therefore are raged at, or trolled via gameplay. (One of my favorites is the jungle saying to "go in", then walking off after you engage, relying on their backup.)

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