perma-banned for one semi-toxic game

ponchey·May 9, 2017·69 votes·12,903 views

In a game I had this morning, my team had a toxic Akali that use homophobic terms directed at our ezreal jungle. My report did get acknowledged and she got a penalty, i additionally got reported and Perma-banned.. However, this game had near to none directed toxicity and i was banned off of one game.... i was wondering if there is anyway to get the 7000 rp i have on my account? Game 1 ponchey: report akali ponchey: she feeding and toxic ponchey: nice vision ponchey: not ponchey: fuck ponchey: i wasnt paying attention ponchey: i said go back... ponchey: my team fed u ponchey: rip ponchey: she has a .5 kda ponchey: when akali is toxic all game and early feeds ponchey: no wtf ponchey: she was flaming ezreal ponchey: u called ez a %%%got ponchey: u just let him ult on u? ponchey: gg ponchey: report akail plz ponchey: and ty

269 Comments

RiotRiot TantramMay 10, 201789 votes

The question in this case is really whether or not the chat log should result in a chat restriction.

This is your 5th penalty, and you just got off your 14-day ban 9 days ago. When you had the 14-day ban you were told that the next would be a perma-ban.

poncheyMay 10, 20174 votes

What was my infraction on this chat log though?

ModThe DjinnMay 10, 201714 votes

{quoted}

What was my infraction on this chat log though?

In this case, almost certainly the zero-tolerance policy towards hate speech. Yes, that does include repeating what someone else said -- it's easy to simply say "he used a slur against me" or "he called me a derogatory term."

Additionally, when your entire chat is pretty much ONLY asking for reports and throwing minor criticism, it begins to look a little like harassing that player. I understand it's a fairly minor case of that, but on a fourth warning you should probably be doing better.

Troll for TrumpMay 10, 20176 votes

Really think Riot should loosen up on the definition of harassment.

It's supposed to be decided by the community, though Riot gets the final judgement call.

I think most people would not consider that harassment.

Hexs FortuneMay 10, 20174 votes

{quoted}

What was my infraction on this chat log though?

This is an easy answer! You were harassing the Akali all game long, despite knowing you were going to be perma'd if reported. If I were you i'd have done everything I could to avoid being hit again.

poncheyMay 10, 20175 votes

i was unaware asking for reports was harassment

ModThe DjinnMay 10, 20173 votes

{quoted}

i was unaware asking for reports was harassment

Politely asking for a report is not -- it's merely unnecessary, since a single report is just as good as nine reports.

Repeatedly harping on the request for a report, especially when it's the single dominating thing about your chat log, can push it into harassment. This particular log ran a little towards the unnecessarily repeated request, which can be seen as harassment.

ChønklordMay 10, 20175 votes

He asked twice, and politely so.

That is not harassment.

JoxcabMay 10, 20176 votes

Not knowing the rules isn't an excuse.

ChønklordMay 10, 20176 votes

Unless the rules are vague and unclear; in this case, "asking for reports".

Dextix LTMay 10, 20171 votes

Ignorance of a law does not excuse from a law.

ChønklordMay 10, 20174 votes

It does when the provider of said laws makes it vague/unclear and not easily accessible/visible to the those that are required to follow them.

ChønklordMay 10, 201773 votes

ponchey (NA) - about an hour ago I was giving evidence to team to report her .... :(

#Oh hey look @Riot Tantram, a player whom is punished (permabanned) for "asking for reports", because they were unaware of the IFS and how it only needs one report to flag a player.

Now I'm not excusing this player's past offenses, and I'm most certainly not excusing their poor judgment in repeating a homophobic slur, but surely you have to be cognizant of the fact that in this chat log, their only reason for punishment was repeating a homophobic slur (hate speech) which was picked up by the IFS; under the misguided belief and understanding that somehow "more reports / calling for reports will make sure the offending player will be punished".

I.e. This player was counter-reported, the chat logs scanned by the IFS, the offending words/phrases picked up, and erroneously determined this player was being toxic right after their 2-week ban 9 days ago, resulting in a permaban.

The question in this case is really whether or not the chat log should result in a chat restriction.

You're right; the question in this case is really whether or not the chat log should have resulted in a penalty to begin with.

You're essentially telling this player "well you were just punished 9 days ago, and because you repeated an offensive word under the faulty belief that 'I need more reports to get the offender punished', you are the one punished instead because you are on 'thin ice'".

#Do you still want to ignore the fact the League community at large does not understand how the report system / IFS works, and that at a bare minimum, it is in Riot's and the community's best interest to implement better awareness of player behaviorial guidelines within the client itself and not simply on the forums/website where a small percentage of players peruse occasionally?

Reading material that has yet to be fully addressed / was poorly addressed by Riot or yourself:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/RUALohvl-psa-players-asking-for-reports-is-still-a-thing

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/LF9WjE6X-psa-monthly-reminder-vast-majority-of-players-still-call-for-reports

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/4V464Mj8-riot-why-report-calling-lobbying-for-mass-reports-should-not-be-a-thing

TL;DR: the OP would not have been permabanned for repeating an offensive hate speech word had he been made aware that there is no reason to ask for reports (because you only need one); he would not have ever used chat in the first place.

Riot has failed this player by failing to better educate the community as a whole on player behavioral rules and guidelines via more widely accessible outlets of distribution (e.g. Within the game client itself).

There has been too much confusion about how the IFS works, and how reports work. The community at large is woefully ignorant of the system and the rules governing reports. E.g. Players constantly come to the board to post after being punished thinking the tribunal still exists, et al.

ModUlanopoMay 10, 201714 votes

Let's try this a different way.

Game 1 ponchey: nice vision ponchey: not ponchey: fuck ponchey: i wasnt paying attention ponchey: i said go back... ponchey: my team fed u ponchey: rip ponchey: she has a .5 kda ponchey: when akali is toxic all game and early feeds ponchey: no wtf ponchey: she was flaming ezreal ponchey: u just let him ult on u? ponchey: gg

Is this chat worthy of a chat restriction?

ChønklordMay 10, 201736 votes

Besides the needless line about "alkali being toxic and feeding early", no.

Nothing else in this chat is worthy of any restriction or penalty, and I would argue that the one sarcastic line about alkali feeding is so extremely minor as to be waved off as player frustration.

Unless you want to start debating that mild sarcasm is permaban worthy now?

SaVaGeStaNoMay 10, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bôôsted Bonobo,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=aphOkVup,comment-id=0001000200010000,timestamp=2017-05-10T01:43:39.766+0000)

Besides the needless line about "alkali being toxic and feeding early", no.

Nothing else in this chat is worthy of any restriction or penalty, and I would argue that the one sarcastic line about alkali feeding is so extremely minor as to be waved off as player frustration.

Unless you want to start debating that mild sarcasm is permaban worthy now?

agree'd, riot over reacting about toxicity, per usual. My old account got perma banned after spending 600 dollars. I D K Y they just cant perma chat ban instead of making u waste time/ money / makes you hate them honestly.

JoxcabMay 10, 201712 votes

No one cares how much money you spent.

ModUlanopoMay 10, 201712 votes

Fair enough. I happen to agree.

That means we need to look at the remaining five lines:

ponchey: report akali ponchey: she feeding and toxic ponchey: u called ez a %%%got ponchey: report akail plz ponchey: and ty

Do you believe that chat is worthy of a ban?

I think there are three considerations here, but I'll wait for your analysis.

NiyumiMay 10, 20178 votes

If anyone thinks that is bannable... they honestly just need to be slapped.

JoxcabMay 10, 20176 votes

It is, so stop being deluded.

NiyumiMay 10, 20179 votes

Alrighty, c'mere so I can slap the vain, petty SJW out of you.

JoxcabMay 10, 20176 votes

Today I learned being a respectable human is being vain and petty.

Skyphic May 10, 20174 votes

"sensitive delusional ignorant man child " = respectable*

JoxcabMay 10, 20174 votes

I pity you.

Skyphic May 10, 20178 votes

i mean nothing is more pitiful than saying that "someone calling for reports on an actual toxic person is ban worthy" as well as downvoting me thinking itll make you feel better.

the pit in your 10 year old stomach wont go away :)

community keeps on getting more sensitive

TheHappyReaperzMay 10, 20176 votes

Calling for reports, in itself, is toxic. If that person is indeed being an asshole, there is no need to call for reports. There is no justifiable reason to call for reports.

ChønklordMay 10, 20172 votes

There's only one line considered "worthy" of a ban, if you take factor in what Riot has stated as zero policy toward hate speech / homophobic slurs.

Which as far as I am aware, even repeating such words is considered punishable under "zero tolerance" rule.

Now onto my considerations:

The report calling might, possibly, maybe, likely, tentatively be considered "harassment" but only if the player knew that report begging repeatedly could be harassment, and he/she did not.
We also have to take into account that this player _was not aware that repeating a homophobic slur in the context of asking for reports is still considered "no no" because any such usage of the word is punishable, period, regardless of context.

Therefore I posit the argument that this player, while not innocent of breaking the rules, is only guilty by association of lack of clarity and understanding of said rules.

I only have the two, but if you have a third one I'm happy to hear it.

Baka RedMay 11, 20172 votes

I have to agree here with Mr Bonobo for a change. On game balance our views seem to differ quite a lot, but on justice side we seem to agree on most things. Differences in game balance views are acceptable, but Justice is a different matter.

Here, if the chat log above is the only reason this person was punished, I think the punishment was not just and Riot should unban him. They should also check that the analyzer (be it a bot, a human or an alien) of the chat logs does not take lines like that Ezreal line as bannable offense. The punishable homophobic slur (and similar words) should not be punishable in such context. If that line was counted against the person, it means that Riot's chat reader (be it a bot or a person) can make quite serious mistakes. If there are other chat logs we are unaware, this could be a different matter.

How I think the Ezreal line came to be: I presume that after the Person asked for reports, Akali asked what for, the person told why - that is why it should not count against him. Of course Riot personnel has full access to everybody's chat logs, so they can see it more clearly from there.

PS: Is it punishable offense to repeat the 'bad words' in such context according to Riot's view? I presumed it wasn't, but Bonobo thinks differently. I might actually be wrong for a change - even though that goes against my sense of justice if it is so (but if the reader is a bot, I can kind of understand it). What am I saying, I am never wrong! ;)

Troll for TrumpMay 10, 201724 votes

Ok, if this is worthy of a punishment, almost every single instance I've seen someone type in this game is toxic.

Which means the only way to be safe is to not type at all, in a multiplayer game, and where typing and chatting is supposed to be a chunk of the fun...

poncheyMay 10, 20175 votes

yeah i have people all the time ask for reports

Troll for TrumpMay 10, 20176 votes

Not just that;

I think there are three considerations here, but I'll wait for your analysis.

Meaning there are things besides that warranting possible punishment.

It is just his opinion, but I can't find the 3 things blatantly (morally)wrong with it.

I can find what's punishable:

Calling for reports
Homophobic Slur, regardless of context
Passive-aggressiveness, I suppose.

I disagree with these being punishable, but I'm not the one who gets to make these decisions

ChønklordMay 10, 20176 votes

"Report calling" is not punishable, according to Riot.

.....Apparently except when you repeat a homophobic slur because you were under the mistaken belief you needed to provide proof of another person using it, in order to get reports on them, because you were under the assumption you needed more than one report.

ModUlanopoMay 10, 201716 votes

"Report calling" is not punishable, according to Riot.

That is not true. Report begging is almost always harassment and the system treats it as such.

ChønklordMay 10, 201719 votes

Here we go again, lol.

almost always harassment

Keyphrase almost always.

So there are times when it is not harassment.

Troll for TrumpMay 10, 20172 votes

I think almost always is because he's unsure of Riot's official stance. I think in the past they have called it out as harassment, which seems...a little bit too much.

ChønklordMay 10, 201714 votes

And do you feel OK with that assessment?

An arbiter, who is supposed to know riots official stance on things in order to better assist the public here on the boards.

Unsure of riot's official stance.

Yea. No issue there whatsoever.

ChønklordMay 10, 201715 votes

The point is they recently (tried to) "clarify" that asking for reports is not punishable unless used as a form of harassment, but left everything else vague and unclear surrounding report calling.

After all, if the system needs only one report, why even allow report calling to begin with? And instead of being more visible with how the a reporting system works, they think that just because they made a post here on the forums (which is already lost to the archives and not pinned), that the community as a whole now is "aware" of how the IFS works?

Masses of Players still think the tribunal is a thing, for fucks sake.

I have players in almost every single game I play ask for reports under the misguided belief they need more to punish others effectively.

And I play a lot of games (check my op.gg).

This isn't some minuscule sample size. I have around 2,000 games just for this season alone.

Also, I'm free to be ~~a saucy, sagacious crusader of justice~~ smart-ass if I please. It's one of my more endearing personality traits.

ChønklordMay 10, 20174 votes

My point is, there is a dangerous fallacy in accepting an Arbiter's word as "Riot's gospel" due to the fact they can never be 100% on the same page as Riot on everything, as you so eloquently pointed out.

So they should not try to speak with authority on every subject as though they do.

** That is not true.** Report begging is almost always harassment and the system treats it as such.

Not only in this thread but in other threads, Ulanapo has consistently debated me and others on this subject of report calling, arguing as though he/she has 100% perfect clarity of Riot's stance on report calling; which is clearly not the case.

Imagine, for the unsuspecting board visitor who sees someone with a blue name and thinks "Oh they must be important and know stuff, so I should pay more attention to what they have say and take their word on issues I have"....

Yea. That's my issue.

Some Arbiters (i.e. DTN) I have great respect and admiration for, because they don't try to act as "Riot's official knowledge vessels", and they understand the limitations they have as Arbiters but still effectively communicate the knowledge and understanding they do have in a way that is fair, just, and balanced, without attempting to come across as always right.

OnlyYouCanHearMeMay 10, 20172 votes

I don't think it has anything to do with Ulanopo being uncertain of Riot's stance on begging for reports. He's read the posts from Riot NaKyle and Riot Tantram just like we all have. It seems as though Ulanopo is saying that in almost all cases where a player says "report X" multiple times in a match, it is done with the intention of harassing player X. And the IFS treats any logs that are reported with that as containing harassment, and punishes players accordingly.

The thing is, if a player has done/said horrible things in a match and you feel that they need to be reported for it, even if you want to ask other players to report as well, there's no need to ask multiple times. Asking once is enough. And you can say in that request precisely why you are asking for reports. For example, "Please report Akali for using homophobic slurs against our Ezreal, thank you" at the end of the match. That's not harassment. It's polite, it's informative, and while it's not necessary, it does not involve any prolonged, or even short term, verbal attack upon any other players.

ChønklordMay 10, 20174 votes

And nowhere in these chat logs was "report calling" used as harassment.

He was very polite in asking for them.

What bothers me with Ulanopo is that he/she takes it upon themselves to interpret Riot's stance even though everyone else realizes Riot themselves have not been clear enough -- and then pushes this personal interpretation toward players on the boards as though it is the "de facto" Riot law.

So unless Arbiters have some private back-channel direct access to communicate with and receive information from Riot employees that I don't know about, there's no possible way Ulanopo would have insider information that the rest of the community does not; and is just repeating his own personally biased version of the rhetoric.

ChønklordMay 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

I'm under the impression that they do in fact have a bit of a working relationship with some of the Rioters. On more than one occasion I have seen an Arbiter comment in a thread telling a player to hold on for a moment while they go to check something with one of the Reds. And they will come back within a short period of time and reply again with an answer. I've always assumed that they either have a chat group somewhere, or a channel on discord, or something along those lines for when the Arbiters have questions or need a Riot opinion. Perhaps one of the Arbiters can clarify that?

Something to keep in mind, the Arbiters, just like the Riot employees, are people. And they are going to have their own personal opinions on matters which may, or may not, coincide with Riot's official stance. Yes, the Arbiters speak with a certain amount of authority when replying to threads here on the Boards, but I've never once seen an Arbiter come in and try to use their status to bully or pass judgement on a player, even when they have personally been opposed to that player's actions. In fact, if you were to cover their names, they sound just like the rest of us who post here regularly, maybe a little more prim and proper, but for the most part, they speak with the same level of conviction. If I honestly thought one of them was abusing their position, I would be willing to say so, but in this case, I think much of this comes from someone misinterpreting Ulanopo's comment.

Then I would request that an Arbiter -- any Arbiter -- reply here to confirm whether or not that is true (about a back-channel communication line directly to Riot staffers).

If so, then there's no need to second guess them, since they should be representing accurate information as it has been relayed to them from Riot themselves.

DrCyanideMay 10, 20177 votes

ponchey: report akali ponchey: she feeding and toxic ponchey: report akail plz ponchey: and ty

They're asking for reports, yes, but it sounds more like once when they were feeding/being toxic and once as a reminder at the end. Considering that we were told it's only punishable to ask for reports if you're doing so in a harassing way, then these are fine.

ponchey: u called ez a %%%got

A reply to Akali, trying to educate her on what she did wrong. It could have been handled differently, sure, but I don't think it's inherently toxic to quote someone.

ModPeriscopeMay 10, 20175 votes

I guess this really depends on whether or not Akali was feeding, toxic, and using homophobic slurs. Two of those are easily proven, but intentional feeding isn't always clear cut; when it isn't, I consider calling someone a feeder harassment. If the Akali was neither toxic nor used slurs, then I'd consider this chat punishable.

ChønklordMay 10, 201712 votes

You're completely missing the over-arching point;

The OP was under the misguided assumption that in order to make sure the toxic akali player would be punished, that they must ask for reports in the chat to "get 9x" (and since the akali player was denying the use of hate speech, the OP thought he needed to provide "evidence").

He was misguided, because you only need one report to flag someone, and asking for reports is never needed.

In this instance, he was permabanned for just the fact of typing the homophobic slur in chat; regardless of the context which I stated above.

We're not arguing about whether or not the OP's chat was harassment -- it was not. We are arguing whether or not the permaban is justified. I do not believe it is, in this instance, as an outlier.

GULAG 4 UMay 10, 20172 votes

Pretty negative, probably worth a chat restric, but maybe not a ban (on it's own. Not if it's his final chance) iMO.

JoxcabMay 10, 201711 votes

It doesn't need to be worth a ban for a ban to happen if he was already on his last strike.

AmazoXMay 10, 20177 votes

Definitely not worth a PERMA-BAN IMO.

Like I see players running it down mid and etc and aren't permanently banned, This person does not deserve this perma-ban.

The only reason the chat looks toxic is because of the word ''Fuck''.

Sraeg2013May 10, 20175 votes

It is completely irrelevant how many times OP was punished, because:

The system picked up "report akali" as something worth mentioning despite the FACT asking for reports was CONFIRMED to NOT be punishable.
The only slur he used wasn't directed at anybody, but was a quotation of what somebody else in the game said. Sure, if he called somebody _that F-word _, it'd warrant a punishment, but he didn't. I'm sure that nobody would get anyhow mad at him for using that F-word in this context, even Ezreal who this part was about - isn't that what insults are about? If nobody got hurt by it, why should it be punishable?

LexyyMay 10, 201710 votes

And the answer is: no, this chat log should not result in a chat restiction. Period.

You can't be serious about this. There are people 100 times worse than this who have never been banned!

Are you telling me this chat log is bad enough to get chat restriction but insulting my family isn't? Please go ban people who actually insult others, there are plenty. I can tell you the names of people who have insulted and flamed multiple times without even getting a chat restriction. What kind of justice is this?

I fully understand he was banned, but THIS is not enough to get him chat restricted and in this case permabanned. And you know it.