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How does this system handle trolls?

Sharkwhales··1 votes·6,241 views

So I got chat restricted for the first time. The restrictions don't bother me much, sometimes I do argue in chat, though I try not to. However it seems this system can be exploited by trolls. Here are the logs I was sent.

Game 1 In-Game Sharkwhales: easy 2 kills taric Sharkwhales: come with us next time please Sharkwhales: oh he muted everything Sharkwhales: yeah he's a troll Sharkwhales: taric stop trolling Sharkwhales: just gonna mute this troll Sharkwhales: I understand. Sharkwhales: I'll help you Sharkwhales: why did you go to ziggs........ Sharkwhales: you guys want to ff since it's 4v5 Sharkwhales: k Sharkwhales: yeah taric threw the match Sharkwhales: I'm sorry Sharkwhales: such an easy lane if we got that double at level 1 Sharkwhales: you threw the match gg Sharkwhales: I cant camp your lane since you are a -1 Sharkwhales: you are guaranteed to afk during any fight Sharkwhales: you missed the first easiest gank Sharkwhales: watcht he replay you missed the first gank Sharkwhales: you sat in a bush in my jg while me and jinx fought Sharkwhales: no one died but they would have both died if you were there Sharkwhales: so you lost us that fight Sharkwhales: own it Sharkwhales: sitting in bushes while teams fight = evolved human Sharkwhales: plz report me so mods ban you Sharkwhales: I want them to see this trolling Sharkwhales: doesn't even know i get hard cc on multiple targets at level 1 Sharkwhales: guess what lane you have to gank to get dragons Sharkwhales: I did gank mid and top though Sharkwhales: right because you threw bot lane Sharkwhales: so we get no dragons Sharkwhales: you gave them the match Sharkwhales: yes Sharkwhales: i8t's all on you Sharkwhales: we gave up early Sharkwhales: because of you trolling us Sharkwhales: 4v6

The context is a support Taric said he was muting chat, ignored pings, didn't leash with his adc, didn't fight alongside or follow his adc, ignored pings directing him to 3v2 a very exposed enemy with us, etc. That is an example of how passive this player was playing, from the replays I would say 25% of the game he was just standing in place near his tower, at least in the early game

Now, if someone is trolling, calling them a troll is not toxic. If someone is 'griefing' or 'throwing', mentioning that is not toxic. The other person I was talking to was the adc who was getting tilted by how passive this support was. Meanwhile, the support was constantly pinging me as if I'm supposed to hover over his lane after he demonstrated he could not or would not cooperate with me when I gank. I muted his pings pretty early on as a result of his antagonistic behavior. Eventually he started arguing and blaming me in chat, so I responded in kind. I'd like to know what exactly about this interaction is considered 'against the rules' and how exactly you're supposed to respond to a teammate intentionally trolling his own team, or behaving in an antagonistic way that can't be distinguished from trolling.

Additionally at the end when I said we gave up, he said thanks that's what I was looking for, you admitting you gave up. I'm guessing he pointed to this in reporting me, however I was referring to talking to jinx about forfeiting, and the act of casting a forfeit vote. And I did give up on bot lane and on getting dragons and focused on farming to catch up from my attempts to help them, because there is no catchup xp in jg anymore so you have to give up on lanes sometimes and try to powerfarm or else you end up feeding in fights. This does not constitute 'giving up on the match' as I continued to farm and to defend turrets. Are we not supposed to talk about these things in chat? Forfeiting, trolling, griefing, throwing, is it against the rules to mention these things? Is the LoL moderation system able to handle these distinctions, or is it possible for trolls to grief/tilt their team and bait them into arguments and then use the system against them?

15 Comments

SweetShiroNeko4 votes

Riot doesnt care about trolls, they reing is supreme in LoL.

Ph03n1xb1rd3 votes

How does this system handle trolls?

It punishes everyone who mentions that they are trolling, and let them troll for some more (until they do something totally obviously braindead nunu healflash rundown mid)

rujitra1 votes

Your opinion is that it’s not toxic. The majority of the community (80% of players never get punished, by the way) thinks any bickering, arguing, name calling, and harassment like this is unacceptable.

SweetShiroNeko3 votes

Riot and mods in these forums have been selling the idea that opening threads like these are unnaceptable and the OP is the one toxic and creating a negative experience for all players, instead of punishing the troll that is the actual root of the issue and will continue to generate more toxicity in the game.

Modi2 votes

{quoted}

Riot and mods in these forums have been selling the idea that opening threads like these are unnaceptable and the OP is the one toxic and creating a negative experience for all players, instead of punishing the troll that is the actual root of the issue and will continue to generate more toxicity in the game.

That is flat wrong. They do not condone trolling. They believe that both forms of toxicity need to be remedied. The chat aspects are just easier to detect than the subtleties of trolling. Chat can be handled automatically. Trolling requires a manual review.

Sharkwhales1 votes

{quoted}

Your opinion is that it’s not toxic. The majority of the community (80% of players never get punished, by the way) thinks any bickering, arguing, name calling, and harassment like this is unacceptable.

This doesn't make sense to me, because I was generally responding to this guy blaming me, or to the complaints of other teammates about him, and my comments were pretty tame, I wasn't flaming him or insulting him and at every opportunity I moved on and focused on the game. I was at worst reacting to him blaming me, reacting to his pings and responding to his statements and the statements of my teammates. Again, who can give me an official answer about how that is against the rules? Because I don't want to believe -any disagreement in chat- is against the rules, or that saying someone is trolling/throwing is against the rules. I understand insults/namecalling being against the rules but in this match that was not really happening. The worst thing that was said was he implied we were unevolved humans (?) and I didn't take offense to that so why would any of that chat be offensive according to RIOT's rules?

rujitra1 votes

You can get an "official" answer from Riot Support through a support ticket. I don't see how it being "official" or not is going to make the answer any different. And you're right that my comment was a bit too generalized - it's not any disagreement but those that cause a negative environment in chat. However, harassing someone by making accusations of trolling/throwing is certainly a negative behavior. You are unlikely to be punished if you say it once - because saying it once is very very mild. Further, before I point out parts of your chat that were unacceptable, the rules do not depend on what you personally feel is offensive or not - they do not change based on someone else doing something "worse". Below you can find specific parts of your chat log with explanation as to why it's not appropriate:

Sharkwhales: yeah he's a troll Sharkwhales: taric stop trolling Sharkwhales: just gonna mute this troll

This isn't an example of when it'd be acceptable to do this. The only time I can think of this sort of thing would be acceptable would be if you're telling a teammate something like "so-and-so is trolling, so you may want to play as if they won't help you" or similar. Keep in mind this: either it's a player having a bad game or making mistakes, or a troll - there's really no way for you to know. If it's a player having a bad game, making accusations of trolling doesn't do anything to help them play better and just makes everyone "on edge". If it's a troll, then you responding to them is giving them what they want. There's a saying on the internet: "don't feed the trolls".

Sharkwhales: you guys want to ff since it's 4v5

Calling surrender votes is okay. Telling other people to surrender and blaming others for what you feel is a loss is not okay.

Sharkwhales: yeah taric threw the match Sharkwhales: I'm sorry Sharkwhales: such an easy lane if we got that double at level 1 Sharkwhales: you threw the match gg

This is not acceptable as it serves absolutely no purpose other than to make someone else feel bad for their past actions. That's not what chat is for.

Sharkwhales: you are guaranteed to afk during any fight Sharkwhales: you missed the first easiest gank Sharkwhales: watcht he replay you missed the first gank Sharkwhales: you sat in a bush in my jg while me and jinx fought Sharkwhales: no one died but they would have both died if you were there Sharkwhales: so you lost us that fight Sharkwhales: own it

This is more of the same behavior - you start out by making accusations/flaming someone, then go on to blame them for past actions/mistakes. Again, not what chat is for.

Sharkwhales: plz report me so mods ban you Sharkwhales: I want them to see this trolling

Then you report them. You don't harass them in chat. A report gets the player who is reported reviewed - nothing else matters. More reports do not make it reviewed "harder". If nobody reports someone, they don't get reviewed.

Sharkwhales: right because you threw bot lane Sharkwhales: so we get no dragons Sharkwhales: you gave them the match Sharkwhales: yes Sharkwhales: i8t's all on you

I won't repeat myself here.

Sharkwhales: we gave up early Sharkwhales: because of you trolling us Sharkwhales: 4v6

And again, I won't repeat myself.

Sharkwhales1 votes

I'm glad someone is explaining to me how the review process works, but based on how this guy was talking to us, he was clearly aware of what we were asking him to do, and gave no communication that he wouldn't do it at the time or that he thought it was a bad idea, he just ignored us and blamed us afterwards, when it was too late to get on the same page because the enemies were fed and the lanes were lost.

To be clear are you telling me that while it's okay to -report- someone for inting, griefing, afking, etc it's not okay to -say that they are doing it in game- ? can you tell me where I can read this in the rules? because that seems excessive to me.

I get the point about antagonizing or blaming people being unconstructive, but if someone blames me or questions my choices in chat and incessantly pings me to come to his lane, am I not supposed to respond? and am I not supposed to tell him why I don't trust his lane? Am I supposed to tiptoe around the fact that his choices lead everyone to believe he is griefing his team? 90% of what I said in that chat log is in response to what he said or what someone else said, I was not instigating a campaign of accusations..

"This is more of the same behavior - you start out by making accusations/flaming someone, then go on to blame them for past actions/mistakes. Again, not what chat is for."

if everything I say in chat will be measured out of context as if I started the conversation, that itself is a broken metric. I most certainly did not start anything, but when I did speak to him in the beginning I was politely trying to get him to cooperate. When players who are trying to cooperate in good faith, can be trolled and have the system turned against them so that -they- are penalized, the system isn't working right.

rujitra1 votes

I get that it was a frustrating experience. We all get frustrated when plays don't go how we plan them. Keep in mind, though, that unless he agreed to do it, he isn't really obligated to - or even if he did, if he pinged you to back off or left the lane/fight, that's his right as a player. Unfortunately, there is no way in League of Legends to put random people together and have one be a "captain", i.e. someone whose shotcalls are obligated for other teammates. That would be unfair to the other teammates who may have their own ideas as to what is to be done.

If another player is not communicating, that's their right. I hate it too - but Riot has stated that unless someone is attempting to do something contrary to enforced rules, they are not obligated to communicate. The "enforced rules" are that in draft pick you play your assigned lane, and indirectly that junglers take smite (and a jungle item, enforced by experience penalty) and that supports take support item and don't take too much CS (enforced by support item gold penalty from over-CSing). Beyond that, players can make their own decisions, and they don't have to defend/argue them with you just because you disagree.

That's basically what I'm saying. Again, unless you saying it serves a legitimate purpose (such as my example: telling a teammate something such as "if he is trolling he won't help you so play safe" or similar), then it is not acceptable at all. The Summoner's Code defines acceptable behaviors in League, of which making accusations against a teammate violates rules 1 and 3 (among others in a more minor way). Making accusations against another player of trolling is not only not supporting your team, it's actively doing the opposite - alienating a team member. And using chat solely for ragging on someone else repeatedly is certainly not civil discussion.

Again, and I'd like you to seriously consider this, either they were trolling or they weren't. If they were trolling, your response is giving them what they want. Put another way, you responding to the troll is validating what they're doing. People troll on the internet (in games, on forums, etc) because they enjoy seeing other people get angry/enraged/annoyed with their actions. You flaming them for their actions gives that person what they want. And if the player wasn't trolling, you've now just alienated a team member and made them feel like shit, and likely shut off any chance of them coming back from that mistake.

Moving on, you certainly are permitted to have a civil discussion about why you don't agree with someone else. A civil response would be something such as "if you come to my lane, I won't help you", or "please don't gank my lane". It is not repeatedly bringing up past actions, making accusations of trolling behavior, and not really at all saying anything constructive. There is no "tiptoe" involved - you simply are not permitted to use chat to tear other people down accusing them of griefing. See the paragraph immediately above this - either you're "feeding the troll" (which is bad and should be punished) or you're tearing down a legitimate player (which ruins the game for them and your teammates by causing a breakdown in communication and should be punished). Even if other players started the accusations/flaming of this person, it does not make it okay for you to engage in it, continue it, or be a part of it. Other players violating the rules doesn't make it okay for you to.

I certainly respect your opinion that the context should matter, but I personally disagree. More importantly, data from player reports, and the Tribunal, show that the vast majority of players don't care who started it, or what else was going on. The Tribunal was a way players without recent/active punishments could "vote" on other player's chat logs and game stats to say "punish" or "not punish". Riot found that when they compared logs that had different levels of "context" (i.e. anywhere from random flaming for no reason at all to other players hard feeding or flaming first), players tended to vote similarly. Put another way, the context of the game, even though it was presented, didn't change the outcome of the players' opinions except in very very limited circumstances - well beyond your standard "troll" or "flamer". This is what led to the "lack of context" in report evaluation today - it's what most players want.

Let's say I'm a third player in this game. I see the actions you're frustrated with myself and can make my own determination as to whether I should report him. Let's assume I agree with you, it was trolling, and I decide to report. But then I see you feeding the troll - which to me is likely to result in the troll continuing to troll and not doing anything useful for the team communication. Furthermore, your bickering/back-and-forth is likely preventing me and other teammates from communicating with you or each other effectively - because the chat is broken up and busy with your flaming. You best bet I'm going to report that - while the other player may have done their bad thing "first", yours didn't do anything to help the situation and made my game experience worse. Instead of having to deal with a troll on my team, now I have to deal with a troll and someone else who's not doing anything helpful. And if I disagree and don't think the player was a troll? Well now I get to sit here and watch one teammate tear another down for what I think is no reason. So you best bet I'm reporting you regardless if I agree or not. This coincides with what Riot has said before: most reported players for chat offenses end up getting reported by players other than those they are flaming/arguing with in the game.

I'll end by saying this: if this is what you call an attempt to "communicate" in "good faith", then it's clear that you need the punishment to encourage you to change that attitude. This is barely communication - I'd go so far as to say there is no information exchange in these logs that is useful to the game, and so it's not communication. Furthermore, the primary purpose of most of the snippets of chat is to tear someone down, make them feel bad for a mistake, and attempt to bully them into doing what you want them to do. That is not "in good faith" at all.

Sharkwhales1 votes

I take your point about trolling and other teammate's experience.

I disagree with your opinion that being blunt about someone's behavior and its effect on the game, is insulting or unsupportive or flaming. I don't have time to write a delicately worded essay and focus on an ongoing match at the same time. It is impossible to help someone correct bad choices without being honest about those choices being bad, and the more concise you are about it, the easier it is to misinterpret. But being concise is very good for gameplay.

So I can see the usefulness of muting people instead of talking to them in this situation, but I am not going to assume everyone is thin skinned and can't handle a direct statement about how seriously their behavior hamstrings the team. If a player acts like they're upset by my words I will take that into account. If a player antagonizes me I will assume they aren't sensitive and can handle the same language that they used. If that means the same language that exists in the report function, then to use that language isn't toxic as it is used by the client itself. And if a majority of players involved in tribunals (which is likely only a minority of league players) disagree, that's on them. If you think I wasn't trying to relay information to get this guy to see what he's doing wrong, and either fix it in that match or fix it in future matches, your judgement is questionable too. Some of it is useless argument, which I can avoid, but a lot of it is just blunt statement of fact. I learn from people being blunt with me sometimes, I'm sure others do too, it isn't toxic, it's just practical.

rujitra1 votes

Well, bottom line - Riot is a business. They will side with well over 80% of players who want the current rules versus the minority who get punished and disagree with them. They are not at all wrong for doing what their players want. If you disagree with that, you may wish to play a different game.

I’ll also point out that attempting to say it’s other people’s problem for not wanting to play with your toxicity is not a healthy or viable attitude.

IVSakenz1 votes

I can most certainly say that your punishment was due to chat and nothing to do with "giving up"

even if someone is trolling... you can not say they are trolling and argue in chat about it..

In fact, even responding to a troll in any way is probably going to turn out bad..

in the future I suggest to leave your chat button alone and instead take a vid of the match and use the video to report them instead..

It sucks, but that is the way to handle it without risking a ban yourself

Sharkwhales1 votes

{quoted}

I can most certainly say that your punishment was due to chat and nothing to do with "giving up"

even if someone is trolling... you can not say they are trolling and argue in chat about it..

In fact, even responding to a troll in any way is probably going to turn out bad..

in the future I suggest to leave your chat button alone and instead take a vid of the match and use the video to report them instead..

It sucks, but that is the way to handle it without risking a ban yourself

can someone confirm this? is it against the rules to say in chat that a teammate is trolling? I'm skeptical

Arammus1 votes

uhm... handle trolls? what do you mean? it doesnt lul.

almost kingz1 votes

If even this gets a ban, how dare anyone lash out against injustice.... dead system so we're all just fucked aye

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