PERMANENT Ban for typing 1 or 2 sentences per game arguing back at flamers?!

olilopes·Feb 12, 2018·3 votes·1,160 views

The title says it all: Typical kid starts screaming literal garbage at you and the whole team while they are literally the worst player on the team in every way, you respond with something like: "No, you're the one who's a tard for yelling at us like a kid while we're just trying to play and help each other"

The game ends and I'm PERMANENTLY BANNED. Who runs the LoL tribunal? A bunch of kindergarteners?

At this point I'm glad I'm permanently banned so I can finally leave this game. The game itself is great, but I've never met such a trash community in any multiplayer game including any competitive &/or team games out there. And I've also never seen a game's company dealing with this in such a terrible way.

If you want to create a tribunal system with people who will decide whether or not someone should be banned, then for Christ sake how the hell do you allow children and random people to access & take control of it?? ARE YOU CRAZY!?

Either way, I'm done.

88 Comments

Jo0oFeb 12, 201816 votes

Tribunal's been shut down for about four years, dude.

You got 14-day banned five months ago for presumably the same thing, and then barely played any games in the interim, so your account was still considered to be fresh off that ban. There's no justifiable reason to flame somebody. The expectation is that you mute people, not escalate the altercation by flaming back.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

You've made the most sensible and logical reply out of everyone else. However if this is an automatic system trying to pick apart your chat logs, then that's just pathetic. All the actual flamers have to do is know how to dodge the system.

Basically they're keeping all the real flamers around, whilst banning everyone who might get sick of them for a second. In other words, this game will eventually have ONLY flaming children playing in it.

Jo0oFeb 12, 20184 votes

The automated system is actually really strong in terms of identifying work-arounds, like alternate spelling of insults. I've yet to see evidence suggesting that anybody knows ways to "dodge" the system.

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

Alternative spelling of insults? You call that a work-around when trying to insult someone or your whole team in general? Surely you know that communication isn't half as limited as that.

Jo0oFeb 12, 20182 votes

You didn't mention any specific ways that one might "dodge" a behavioral system, so I suggested alternate spellings as a hypothetical.

You can see many instances of extreme passive-aggression and other non-straightforward methods of insulting somebody getting punished on these boards, so I'm not sure what other workarounds there would be.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20186 votes

Let's not just create a strawman and run your own show with it.

Either post your own chatlogs here (the ban notification should provide you with about 3 exhibits most of the time for the purpose of context) without alteration, or you keep this private between you and Riot by submitting a support ticket.

You don't just say what you want to say without anything backing it and expect people to just nod and follow along on some vague grounds.

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

I don't think you know what the term "strawman" means.

Yes I do just say what I want to say, that's the definition of free speech. I also didn't make any claims that needed to be "backed". Did you use a template to write your reply or something? It seems you could post that as a reply to any topic and make it work although it would still be an equally generalized and aimless post.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you know what the term "strawman" means.

"Strawman" metaphorically means it's a person or opponent you created, and you fight it instead of your real opponent because it's easier, and you used it to pretend that you're actually having a good fight.

Which is kinda this thread. The "strawman" is the mostly void claims you've thrown out regarding the player management system.

Yes I do just say what I want to say, that's the definition of free speech. I also didn't make any claims that needed to be "backed". Did you use a template to write your reply or something? It seems you could post that as a reply to any topic and make it work although it would still be an equally generalized and aimless post.

Yes, it's free speech. But the truthfulness of a statement is a separate concept from one's right to say what they want to say. I was regarding the latter, given that is what is at stake in this post.

Sona PingFeb 12, 20183 votes

If you want to have a discussion, screenshot your reform cards. Otherwise this is pointless.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

What are you talking about? If I was appealing for an unban I'd do that. I addressed a problem with this game and its' community, and the way Riot is dealing with that problem.

If you're not interested in this or don't want to discuss it then replying to it is pointless.

Jo0oFeb 12, 20184 votes

Your method of "addressing" the problem paints you as part of the problem.

If you want to suggest that your ban was unjust, you're going to need to offer actual evidence to support that claim. Otherwise, you're just another banned player salty about their punishment.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

You labeling me as "just another X" only sends out presumptuousness. I already mentioned that I just wanted to discuss a problem that I believe should be addressed. If you disagree then please share your thoughts on it.

I'm not simply suggesting that my ban was unjust, I should be banned for talking back to flamers, since this only escalates the flaming, however I shouldn't have been permanently banned, and I wouldn't have been permanently banned if a qualified person had addressed the problem instead of an automatic system or a tribunal of random internet people (which is what it used to be). Taking the facts into account, It's obvious that they're not paying enough attention to the toxicity of the community. Don't you agree?

Jo0oFeb 12, 20183 votes

My "just another X" label only applies if you fail to back your opinion up with evidence.

Riot operates on an escalating punishment system. For most people, there are four tiers: a 10-game chat restriction, a 25-game chat restriction, a two-week ban, and then a permanent ban. Tiers can be skipped in cases of extreme toxicity, most commonly the use of hate speech or death threats, and tiers can be climbed back down over long periods of good behavior. Since you've hardly played any games since your two-week ban, Riot's system sees you as having broken the rules yet again, fresh off of your previous punishment. As your previous punishment was explicitly your final warning, this new infraction becomes a perma. I see no reason to think that this would change based on who or what issued your punishment.

ScuttleFeb 12, 20182 votes

It's funny you type out a whole rant about the tribunal when your entire premise is wrong. There is no tribunal (as in, players are not judging your chat anymore and haven't for years) and the system is automated. Post your chat logs and we'll tell you what triggered the system.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

Aw how very kind of you, you'll tell me what triggered the system eh? This means you can easily show me (the apparently hardcore flamer who flames so much he was permanently banned) how to avoid getting punished whilst flaming my team and being a dick all I want, you're right, that's a wonderful system which is totally going to help this game & its' community improve!..

I'm not talking rocket science here, this is obviously a terrible system and it needs to change. The actually toxic people who damage other people's gameplay can easily dodge this terrible system and keep doing what they want, whereas those who don't flame in general but eventually lose their fuse and say something in their defense will keep getting fucked, since they never had any reason to get how the system works or know how to dodge it.

All of the noobsFeb 12, 20183 votes

Lets say the system works as you want it to work.

Are you still banned?

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

No.

All of the noobsFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

No.

Lets be real tho. Do you think the system banned you alone, or the absurd amount of reports you've recieved lately.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

If merely being reported is enough to get you banned, then my point is proven don't you think? Every angry kid will report his team after losing the game, especially if it's someone who might say "shut up" to them while they're flaming.

All of the noobsFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If merely being reported is enough to get you banned, then my point is proven don't you think? Every angry kid will report his team after losing the game, especially is it's someone who might say "shut up" to them while they're flaming.

im just saying a majority of threads made by banned players believes its the systems fault and refuses to believe they've been reported multiple times lol :)

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

That just means you're discriminating me based on your experience :<

All of the noobsFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That just means you're discriminating me based on your experience :<

https://giphy.com/gifs/editingandlayout-smile-beach-drink-5xtDarqlsEW6F7F14Fq

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If merely being reported is enough to get you banned, then my point is proven don't you think? Every angry kid will report his team after losing the game, especially if it's someone who might say "shut up" to them while they're flaming.

Being reported does not automatically result in ban. I am not sure where you get that idea from.

1 report is also the same as having 9 reports (assuming all 9 other players in a 5v5 match reported you), in case you wonder. It's just a flag to trigger the system's attention.

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

Unless it happens in, say, 5 games in a row?

AeroWaffleFeb 12, 20181 votes

And you display behavior that actually warrants a punishment.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

So in your opinion would it be fair to ban someone who simply says "shut up" whenever someone in their team is flaming (AKA 95% of games)?

AeroWaffleFeb 12, 20181 votes

Do you have a specific example where that happened?

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

Yes, that's how I got banned and that's why I'm using my ban as an example in this post. I often drink when I play this game, which leads me to respond to flamers a bit too fast, however I've always made sure that my responses were simply correct, such as "You're the one who's (insert the insult they were throwing at their team) since you're just yelling at your team while we try to help each other and win", afterwards the person I was talking to will DEFINITELY report me, and after a few games where this exact situation happens, I WILL get banned eventually.

AeroWaffleFeb 12, 20181 votes

I would rather have your chat logs instead of just your assertion that that's what happened.

ScuttleFeb 12, 20182 votes

this is obviously a terrible system and it needs to change

source needed

The actually toxic people who damage other people's gameplay can easily dodge this terrible system

Also source needed. It got you, didn't it? By the way, you won't get a message if someone you reported gets punished, at least not all of the time. The system looks for consistent toxicity; one game won't usually do it. You showed, over multiple games, that you were toxic. You must be ashamed of your chat logs to not post them after constantly telling us that the system is broken. If it is, prove it.

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

I'm permanently banned with my game uninstalled. How exactly do you expect me to get the logs and how are you presumptuous enough to assume it's just me being "ashamed" of them?

ScuttleFeb 12, 20181 votes

If you were actually banned for what you say you were banned for, you can log in and view them.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

You want me to re-install this game which I plan to never play again, just so I can attempt to log into my banned account and give you those chat logs to say that my permanent ban should have been temporary.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Aw how very kind of you, you'll tell me what triggered the system eh? This means you can easily show me (the apparently hardcore flamer who flames so much he was permanently banned) how to avoid getting punished whilst flaming my team and being a dick all I want, you're right, that's a wonderful system which is totally going to help this game & its' community improve!..

I'm not talking rocket science here, this is obviously a terrible system and it needs to change. The actually toxic people who damage other people's gameplay can easily dodge this terrible system and keep doing what they want, whereas those who don't flame in general but eventually lose their fuse and say something in their defense will keep getting fucked, since they never had any reason to get how the system works or know how to dodge it.

There is only 1 way in which you can be a (kinda) dick and not get banned.

Spamming.

You usually have to be some special kind of spamming to actually get banned, given generally people would not report it, and so most spammers get off quite easily.

But that's it.

Most of the "tips" really just comes down to being a decent human being, and never use discriminatory slurs or tell someone to kill themselves given Riot has a 'no-tolerance policy' regarding those terms. That's all there is to it. Just be a normal person. The system even has leniency built into it, it does actually overlook raging if it's infrequent (assuming discriminatory slurs and "kys" and stuff like that aren't part of the raging).

Thevoidwalker336Feb 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There is only 1 way in which you can be a (kinda) dick and not get banned.

Spamming.

You usually have to be some special kind of spamming to actually get banned, given generally people would not report it, and so most spammers get off quite easily.

But that's it.

Most of the "tips" really just comes down to being a decent human being, and never use discriminatory slurs or tell someone to kill themselves given Riot has a 'no-tolerance policy' regarding those terms. That's all there is to it. Just be a normal person. The system even has leniency built into it, it does actually overlook raging if it's infrequent (assuming discriminatory slurs and "kys" and stuff like that aren't part of the raging).

na calling someone bad when they actually are (score proves it) when they are the ones flaming the whole game will get u banned also....u dont want to get banned afk or int.....those ppl dont seem to get punished at all. only verbal n discrimintory gets banned nowadays

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sifu Ip man336,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=QkGguRAI,comment-id=0002000000030000,timestamp=2018-02-12T18:03:44.609+0000)

na calling someone bad when they actually are (score proves it) when they are the ones flaming the whole game will get u banned also....u dont want to get banned afk or int.....those ppl dont seem to get punished at all. only verbal n discrimintory gets banned nowadays

There is a difference between calling someone bad, and also flaming them for it.
2 wrongs don't make 1 right. You are judged on your behaviour. So if you flame back, you will get banned accordingly. Similar to the point above, there is also a difference between talking back and flaming back.
Afk and int do get banned. The process is just longer because it's easier to prove is someone is talking shit than trying to prove if someone is consistently afk or inting; the latter requires a history for the purpose of judgement, the former often don't.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

You're absolutely right, and that's pretty frustrating. I don't flame at or even remotely blame people for being bad at the game, yet here I am being banned permanently because I often respond to people who do that, by simply telling them to shut up and stop being toxic.

Telephone BoothFeb 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're absolutely right, and that's pretty frustrating. I don't flame at or even remotely blame people for being bad at the game, yet here I am being banned permanently because I often respond to people who do that, by simply telling them to shut up and stop being toxic.

You got banned for saying "shut up" and "stop being toxic" often? This is why we need your logs. You make these claims, and nobody is buying it dude. What is the point of posting on this forums, if you don't want to discuss anything? Seems you just want to tell us problems without any evidence of the actual problem.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

Alright I'm going to try again and see who gets it: IF YOU HAVE AN AUTOMATIC SYSTEM DETECTING WHAT IS BAN WORTHY AND WHAT ISN'T, THEN YOU CAN SIMPLY CHECK HOW IT WORKS AND KNOW HOW TO DODGE IT, AND CHANCES ARE 90% OF THE WORST FLAMERS ARE AWARE OF THIS. Am I being too complicated here?

SEKAIFeb 12, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Alright I'm going to try again and see who gets it: IF YOU HAVE AN AUTOMATIC SYSTEM DETECTING WHAT IS BAN WORTHY AND WHAT ISN'T, THEN YOU CAN SIMPLY CHECK HOW IT WORKS AND KNOW HOW TO DODGE IT, AND CHANCES ARE 90% OF THE WORST FLAMERS ARE AWARE OF THIS. Am I being too complicated here?

That is assuming it has easy loopholes. If it doesn't, then it doesn't mean shit whether or not you are aware of what it does because you can't dodge its authority anyway.

Let's just say while not perfect, Riot's system does have a pretty solid rate of banning legitimate flamers. I mean, it can even detect if someone is consistently intentionally throwing the game at the last second (albeit this one's processing period is quite long), I'm sure picking out most forms of flaming, hidden/passive or otherwise, isn't out of its reach.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

There's no such automatic system that could possibly become an "undodgeable authority" in today's age. Insulting and/or trolling people without the use of curse words or specific keywords is incredibly easy, and there's no way to create a system that can detect this without also detecting toxicity in casual harmless chatting. They'd be better off just closing all communications and making the in-game chat become only pre-made sentences like in Hearthstone.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20182 votes

{quoted}

There's no such automatic system that could possibly become an "undodgeable authority" in today's age. Insulting and/or trolling people without the use of curse words or specific keywords is incredibly easy, and there's no way to create a system that can detect this without also detecting toxicity in casual harmless chatting. They'd be better off just closing all communications and making the in-game chat become only pre-made sentences like in Hearthstone.

There is a thing called machine learning. Remember, this isn't the 90s anymore.

By feeding data into a machine learning algorithm, it is capable of creating new rules and test cases on its own. It's the same as how we learn and make things.

Given League's chat can only be used for a limited scope of context and expression since it's entirely text based, the goal is obviously easier to achieve.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

You're just calling me old :(. Look I love technology but we did not reach a point where we can create an automatic system that can actually tell if someone is really being a dick or not. Hell, even humans have trouble with that.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You're just calling me old :(. Look I love technology but we did not reach a point where we can create an automatic system that can actually tell if someone is really being a dick or not. Hell, even humans have trouble with that.

I wasn't calling you old. I just said tech has improved.

The automatic system is just to handle all obvious and easy to tell cases. Specific and edge cases that may have wrongly resulted in ban are to be inquired through support ticket, which they would do a review, and if indeed the suspension is found faulty then the account will be pardoned.

The reason for doing this is obvious, because LoL has too many matches commenced daily, so a bot has to be included to speed up the process. Most cases are going to be obvious anyway, which bots would save a ton of time by going through them quickly, leaving human moderators to deal with trickier cases.

olilopesFeb 12, 20182 votes

That's a very fair point, but as I mentioned it also creates MANY instances where the player will be accused wrongly, and sure they can "inquire through a support ticket" and have their case reviewed, but my point is that all cases should be reviewed and there's no way to "speed up the process". If you want a truly well built system then you can't be looking for such shortcuts.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

That's a very fair point, but as I mentioned it also creates MANY instances where the player will be accused wrongly, and sure they can "inquire through a support ticket" and have their case reviewed, but my point is that all cases should be reviewed and there's no way to "speed up the process". If you want a truly well built system then you can't be looking for such shortcuts.

How else do you suppose Riot is going to review tens and hundreds of thousands of reports (or even higher) they get globally everyday?

Remember, the player-driven Tribunal was only retired (and have its data integrated into the current automated system) because it was already lagging behind, despite the community dedicated a good portion of its playerbase into policing the reports and even though the game was vastly less popular back then with far less reports flying around.

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

Absolutely, but what if Riot used a mere fraction of their profits to improve that tribunal and gave qualified people an actual salary to do what this automatic system is attempting to accomplish? Hundreds of thousands of reports are nothing to a handful of qualified people who work a regular schedule every day only to address them.

Obviously this would imply spending a small amount of their profits simply towards improving their community, and the fact that they've always been reluctant to do this (unlike companies like Valve) is pretty bad if you ask me.

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely, but what if Riot used a mere fraction of their profits to improve that tribunal and gave qualified people an actual salary to do what this automatic system is attempting to accomplish? Hundreds of thousands of reports are nothing to a handful of qualified people who work a regular schedule every day only to address them.

Obviously this would imply spending a small amount of their profits simply towards improving their community, and the fact that they've always been reluctant to do this (unlike companies like Valve) is pretty bad.

I was only being modest on the number and used figurative "large number" rather than factual ones. Do note:

Roughly 27 million players play the game daily, with concurrent players at any given time of the day peaking at 7.5 million; and that is the data from 2014, 3-4 years ago, the current number may be higher.
And that's just the number of players per day. A player usually plays multiple matches per day, most people play more than 2 matches per day. So you have to times that figure by a multiple of 2 or greater to get the number of matches played per day.
And also remember, a match can also result in multiple reports. So you need to multiply the figure by another factor to get the total number of reports. PER DAY.

Now just sit back and let the amount of reports there are per day slowly sink into your mind. And then think if Riot is just gonna hire people to process the reports. The answer is obvious. Obviously they only use their hire to deal with trickier cases and let the bot deal with the general cases.

olilopesFeb 12, 20181 votes

50+ Million players playing every day doesn't imply that there will be 50+ million reports to address, and those numbers don't imply that there isn't a way for human hire to deal with them which will still be a lot better than bots.

And then there's the main problem, you said "they only use their hire to deal with trickier cases and let the bot deal with the general cases" but who decides what's a trickier case and what isn't? Another bot with a huge chance for inaccuracy..

SEKAIFeb 12, 20181 votes

{quoted}

50+ Million players playing every day doesn't imply that there will be 50+ million reports to address, and those numbers don't imply that there isn't a way for human hire to deal with them which will still be a lot better than bots.

And then there's the main problem, you said "they only use their hire to deal with trickier cases and let the bot deal with the general cases" but who decides what's a trickier case and what isn't? Another bot with a huge chance for inaccuracy..

Getting through that amount of report, which happens every single day, is still both physically and financially impossible if you do it entirely by hand via employees.

Also, the decider of trickier case is the support ticket. Obviously banned who inquire through support ticket will be shoot down quickly, but more the support ticket will bring attention of the more intricate cases to the Riot employees. Doing it this way is obviously far more efficient than trying to get through tens of millions of reports every single day, which is just not going to happen.

EDIT: Let's pick an easy number and say that averagely there are 12 million reports per day, modest enough. So over an 8 hour work day schedule, we're expecting 12 million/8 => 1.5 million reports solved per hour. Which this means 1.5 million/60 => 25000 reports need to be solved per minute. Or we can look at it this way: Assume a person only needs 3 min to solve a report, which is a big understatement but whatever; to solve 1.5 million reports within an hour with this speed (3 min per report) still requires 1.5 million/(60/3) => 75000 employees. It's just not possible.

EDIT2: You might ask why isn't community involved for this then, seems like an easy task with our numbers. Well, one of the flaws of Tribunal is that it used the rule of averages to balance out the fairness of a given player judgement in order to prevent bias, given unlike being employees, there is no central rules and such dictating the fairness of players when they make judgements to punish or pardon; this led to the system requiring extreme amount of double-handling and delay by the very nature of this approach. So I wouldn't imagine it is going to be better this way really.