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Serious discussion about flaming and permabanning

bitPhantom··1 votes·2,447 views

UPDATE: https://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behaviour-en/WnjoyEVK-can-we-get-an-option-to-turn-off-chat-completely This is much better written than my post but signals the same idea. You cant say shit to anybody so at least disable chat if nothing else.

Dear Riot Games,

I think it is about time we start a serious discussion about "flaming" in game and people getting permanently banned around it. Today, I was banned on my sixth consecutive account and, while I understand that my claims will be entirely dismissed because you are blind to gaming reality, I decided that enough was enough and that it is time that somebody told you the truth.

What is the truth? The truth is that PLAYERS FLAME, have flamed and always will flame. I don't know how it is in the Valley with your fake PC culture and everything being sunshine and rainbows but that is the reality, face it. I will illustrate on my perma ban example:

Game 1 In-Game ... bitPhantom: I DID SS YOU FUCK bitPhantom: I DID S OYOU STAYED ALIVE bitPhantom: STFU bitPhantom: pls report this jarvan bitPhantom: projecting on me some shit idk bitPhantom: why are you guys so toxic bitPhantom: wtf is your problem bitPhantom: noobs bitPhantom: I AM SPLIUT PUSHING HOW HARD IS IT bitPhantom: YOU FUCKSW bitPhantom: NEED bitPhantom: TO bitPhantom: SHUT bitPhantom: THE bitPhantom: FUCK bitPhantom: UP bitPhantom: IDIOTS bitPhantom: 0 UNDERSTANDING OF GAME bitPhantom: LET ME AND DARIUS PUSH bitPhantom: AND ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS PUSH THE FUCKING WAVE bitPhantom: BUT NO bitPhantom: YOU TARDS CANT EVEN DO THAT bitPhantom: SO STFU bitPhantom: nice ree3mption bitPhantom: FUCK bitPhantom: THE bitPhantom: DRAGON bitPhantom: YOU DUMB FUCK bitPhantom: ofc you had to fight bitPhantom: you never have bitPhantom: shut the fuck up bitPhantom: FUCK YOU bitPhantom: YOU DUMB SHIT bitPhantom: WHY IS DARIUS QUIET? bitPhantom: YOU KNOW WHY bitPhantom: BECAUSE HE KNOWS YOU GUYS ARE STUPID bitPhantom: AND IS SILENT bitPhantom: BECAUSE HE DOESNT WANT TO GET BANNED bitPhantom: BUT I DONT GIVE A SHIT bitPhantom: SO FUCK YOU bitPhantom: LEANR THIS GAMER bitPhantom: let me tell you one thing bitPhantom: this game is about objectives bitPhantom: nothing else bitPhantom: not fucking fighting bitPhantom: end Post-Game bitPhantom: you guys bitPhantom: seriously bitPhantom: alistar bitPhantom: and jarvan bitPhantom: you need to get your shit together

Please explain to me what is so wrong that I did? Really, please do. In your land of sunshine and rainbows, god fucking forbid that somebody actually swears, uses caps, tells somebody in a serious (ofc flame for you) manner what they did wrong, to stop doing the same mistakes. You wanna know why we do it? Because we play with emotions and actually give a shit, the very people who like this game the most. And stop bullshitting us that we are the 0.0006% because I know that we are not. What you are doing is fascist, preventing freedom of speech and you make people blind to this fact, instead, we are perceived as toxic. There has never been a game where players were forbidden to express what they think. But whatever, help make a bubble generation of kids, life will catch up to them in any case.

To give context, let me exactly illustrate what I/we do and do not do, and let's talk further from there:

I DO:

  • tell players they are stupid, fucking dumb, useless and similar when their actions hurt the team
  • use caps, swear words, ping on people excessively

I DO NOT:

  • leave games, int, troll or ff
  • ever discourage people to stop playing

And are we really worse than people who give up, int, troll (and we know there are many more players like this). Why don't they get banned? Why is it so important that we have to fake what we think and keep our mouth shut, it's not natural for people to do so. It's not tilting telling somebody to get their shit together. You wanna be a sport? This is what sports are like, a dirty place where people talk shit because they understand that in the end everything that matters is TO WIN.

Now, chances are that nobody relevant will ever process this information here and/or appropriatelly act on it, but rest assured, the kids you are protecting that buy skins with daddy's credit card are growing up and your base is drying up. So how about you understand that from a business perspective and start treating your player base accordingly to retain what you have built.

Until then, I will just keep creating new accounts and will keep doing what I do, because I do not give a fuck. And neither do all the people you keep banning. And I will do the exact same thing I did on all previous 6 accounts and get banned again. I still will not give a fuck. Stop turning a blind eye to this fact and just doing what is legally required for you. But I digress. After all, I am a flamer and I am toxic right?

So, from all players like me, I wish you a nice read and a good fuck you while you're at it. I hope you enjoy it's honesty.

bitPhantom

62 Comments

ModThe Djinn10 votes

Please explain to me what is so wrong that I did? Really, please do.

Sure.

I DO:

  • tell players they are stupid, fucking dumb, useless

That's really all there is to it. You can fucking swear to hell and back if you want, but you aren't allowed to insult other players.

And are we really worse than people who give up, int, troll...

Worse? No. Detrimental to the positive game environment Riot wants to support? Yes. Riot bans both when these behaviors are identified, and if you don't like it you're more than welcome to find another game without these restrictions.

It's not tilting telling somebody to get their shit together.

Depends how.

  • Fine: "Hey dude -- could use a bit more focus. That's three times Aatrox has dived you, and you probably could have survived if you played less aggressively."
  • Not Fine: "Get your head out of your ass and pay attention, you fucking noob."

You wanna be a sport? This is what sports are like, a dirty place where people talk shit because they understand that in the end everything that matters is TO WIN.

League is a game first and foremost, a sport second. Players on every level are expected to abide by the behavioral rules. If you're not willing to do that, then either find another game or accept that you will have to keep starting from scratch.

DuskDaUmbreon7 votes

The truth is that PLAYERS FLAME, have flamed and always will flame.

The truth is that PEOPLE KILL, have killed and always will kill.

Does this mean we should accept murder and not punish murderers? No.

Sure, flaming is nowhere near the same degree as murder, but that also doesn't mean we have to accept it.

Laws and rules are there to make society better. We punish those who make society worse, and overall that helps make society better. Make sense?

bitPhantom1 votes

Yes. And you can also try to make leagues toxicity better by understanding why people do it. And we do it because people just don't listen or change. And ofc you get fed up.

DuskDaUmbreon6 votes

You don't make it better by accepting it. You make it better by fixing the problem, and removing toxicity as a viable method to lash out at others.

As the former is quite literally impossible to do (We can't force players to not be bad), Riot leans towards the latter.

J6vV2un2c84 votes

. Today, I was banned on my sixth consecutive account and, while I understand that my claims will be entirely dismissed because you are blind to gaming reality, I decided that enough was enough and that it is time that somebody told you the truth.

And this is why you were permabanned. Rito decided reform was unlikely after a 14-day ban so they removed your account. But even that wasn't enough to get you to reform, and you have been banned on 6 accounts. The reality is, what you are doing is not the norm even if you claim it to be. Most players receive little to no punishments at all, while you have received a maximum punishment 6 times. I have played this game for over 4 years, and have yet to even receive a warning for toxic behavior. And I am not an angel in game either, I have certainly gotten overly frustrated and said things I shouldn't. But you know what? I don't pretend I was justified. If that happens, I learn from the experience and mute those who are making me that frustrated next time. Riot doesn't expect you to be perfect. They just expect you to make an effort to not be a total jerk in game. That really isn't too much to ask.

bitPhantom1 votes

[deleted]

J6vV2un2c84 votes

You don't have that option here. Riot is a private company and these are the rules of the game. Furthermore, your claim that this is just how it is simply is wrong as most people don't need a punishment. The inability to control your emotion is not an inevitability. Most people can learn.

bitPhantom1 votes

I 100% agree, they can do what they want. My claim is about reality and that I will just make a new acc (and players like me). It changes nothing. It's not about controlling emotions, it's about telling people they are wrong in a way that sticks.

J6vV2un2c84 votes

Maybe look in a mirror then. Statistically speaking, you are overwhelmingly more toxic then the average league player. And with a player base this notoriously toxic, that should really say something.

bitPhantom1 votes

I admit when I am wrong, would post that if I had my chat history, I often say I would super flame myself atm. And yes they are toxic but they are toxic because that is what reality looks like which is my whole point. I look at it in a different way. I get under the skin of people, making them so pissed they actually report me after the game. I doubt I'm much more toxic than anybody else in the game, just more effective at wording.

J6vV2un2c84 votes

And this is a point of pride?

bitPhantom1 votes

No, the point why I keep getting banned.

J6vV2un2c86 votes

You keep getting banned because you can't control yourself, but rather then learn and adapt you came up with some way to justify it to yourself rather then face the reality that you are just a toxic player who makes the game significantly less enjoyable for everyone you encounter. Don't pretend this is some kind of holy crusade or enlightenment, as children are perfectly capable of letting their emotions run wild without question too. One of the trademark sighs of adulthood is learning to control your own words and actions and recognizing that emotions don't own you, you own your emotions.

bitPhantom1 votes

[deleted]

J6vV2un2c81 votes

You are such an American

Thank you. Calling out someone for being part of the greatest nation on earth isn't an insult, it is one of the highest possible compliments.

bitPhantom1 votes

[deleted]

J6vV2un2c83 votes

Sorry, I cannot hear you over the sound of freedom and the cry of bald eagles.

bitPhantom1 votes

I played the game longer than you in this case. I'm not saying Riot does not have a claim, they can do however they please, they can ban me for no reason at all if they want, it's their game. I've been a gamer for 20+ years and as a person in their 30s I can tell you that it simply is not acceptable. And whether it was Call of Duty, WoW or anything else you always had the option of telling somebody to go fuck themselves and to do better, this is what this is about.

Also, there are so many other measures that Riot could have taken if they wanted to, disable chat all together would be one. I am not a troll, I always play seriously and to win. But as said, doesn't really matter, just gonna make a new acc and nothing will change.

Update: for context, highest elo I ever got was plat 4, typically get banned around silver and gold, just got into gold 5 on this acc today

J6vV2un2c83 votes

To add onto my previous reply to your nearly identical comment you deleted, you clearly do care that you got banned. You act like you don't, yet here you are on the boards defending your case. You are looking for justification for your actions, but the reality is there is none. You simply need to learn to control your own emotions, or you will keep being banned. It really is that simple.

bitPhantom1 votes

It was the same reply, I wanted to edit but added a new post by mistake so I deleted the old post. I am not defending my case in any case more than to accept the reality of what I am saying. I do not want to be unbanned.

And I do control my emotions, I do this to win. So people stop doing the same mistake again and again and again.

bitPhantom1 votes

You are welcome to add me on my new acc if you want to get an idea of how it is to play with me or you can retain the "typical flamer" mentality.

J6vV2un2c84 votes

I never said you are a typical flamer. Most flamers don't need to be permabanned 6+ times. You are far worse.

J6vV2un2c83 votes

And yet, you keep doing the same mistake again and again and again yourself, hence the repeated permabans.

bitPhantom1 votes

I'm not going to change and neither are most of the others. Because I am not wrong, but we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

ModPeriscope1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not going to change and neither are most of the others.

Most players don't receive penalties, and fewer continue down the escalation path that ends up being permanently banned. Sure, you can choose to not change, but realize that players that don't use chat as you have will have more free skins, access to Clash, and a higher level than you.

bitPhantom1 votes

https://boards.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behaviour-en/WnjoyEVK-can-we-get-an-option-to-turn-off-chat-completely

TrikzterzArma4 votes

How… How can you get banned on SIX, SIX accounts, and yet not understand why??

bitPhantom1 votes

I do understand and respect their decision, I posted this because I think it's idiotic.

TrikzterzArma6 votes

The only thing idiotic is your attitude

Almost Creative4 votes

Silent trolls/inters do get punished, they're just harder to catch if they're not repeated offenders as compared to blatant toxicity.

bitPhantom1 votes

They do not, that's the problem. Their pattern cannot be spotted via automation. Here it's just a weighted function of bad words and frequency of reports. Automated to say.

Kei1432 votes

Manual reviews for trolling is still a thing. Not everything is fully automated.

The problem comes when you think someone is intentionally feed or trolling, but Riot reviews it and deems that behavior to be a bad game instead.

When you flame them, it doesnt miracally make them play better. Explaining things calmly may get them to understand their mistakes faster than flaming them.

Almost Creative4 votes

And I looked up the match you were talking about. You guys still won that game, but some people actually do tilt when you flame them instead of giving them advice.

bitPhantom1 votes

Wonder if my "flame" had anything to do with that given that 3 were complete trolls.

Silent Gravity5 votes

Trolls troll to get reactions. If they didn't continue "trolling" or troll worse to get more of a response from you, that means that they weren't trolls, they were regular players.

NocturnalSheild3 votes

Damn. I only had to read the first 4 lines to realize you deserved the perma ban.

Edit: lawl i actually read the whole thing and it hits every trigger point for trying to bully people into his way of thinking.

Only Sjws care about sportsmanship The game is fascist for not letting him demean people Anti freedom of speech for not letting him demean people Everyone who disagree is a child Only adults actually care about the games they play. Calling someone a retarted idiot is just "tough love" Hes just going to keep doing it so he should just not be punished. Anyone that disagrees with him is wrong

Is there some kind of toxicity checkbox people have to use to create these posts. Because i swear they are all so similar a software could make them.

bitPhantom1 votes

oh dear lord, I used caps and the word fuck. god help me.

Arngrim311 votes

{quoted}

oh dear lord, I used caps and the word fuck. god help me.

That's no excuse. You were obviously toxic and now you're paying for it.

J6vV2un2c81 votes

Anyone who claims only "SJWs" think this way is just using cheap bully tactics. That is an illogical and irrational argument based on an undefined abstract construct.

Hethalean3 votes

That's a bad reason to not try to do anything about it. For example, people steal... and will always steal. It's a poor conclusion that thus we must not punish stealing.

You mentioned that you do not give a fuck. Then what does it matter that you get banned? If you truly do not care, this post seems at odds with that statement. It seems that you DO care, and would like things to change.

bitPhantom1 votes

I understand your example but you are implying that flaming is just as bad, which it is not. It is part of it and everybody flames, "most" just keep it to themsevels, ironically, so they do not get banned. Is my language use excessive? 100%. But it's not something anybody else isn't thinking.

And yes I do care, as I have stated in the post, we are the players who really care. I watch every LCS game and most LPL/LCK games as well. I'm a big fan of the game and the community. But I am not a fan of fakeness, I'm not gonna not tell somebody what I think. It is their right to mute me and it is my right to speak.

Hethalean3 votes

I'm not implying flaming is as bad as stealing. It is just an example. Society tries to stop people from stealing, and also society tries to stop people from being an asshole to a degree. It's called socialization.

As for what everyone is thinking, there is a difference between having a thought, and expressing that thought. It's just part of adapting to a society to understand when a thought is unhelpful in a situation. Someone may think it, but doesn't mean it needs expressing. For example, if a person moves away whom you dislike, it would not be helpful to go to their closest friends and say things like "At least we don't have to deal with that f*** anymore!". Sure, it's your right to say it... but you're just being a jerk

I was not talking about if you care about the game. You mentioned not caring about being banned. You seem to care about the system around which you were banned, and wanting it to change. Thus, you're contradicting yourself saying "I don't give a fuck" then suggesting that the system should change. Just keep going on getting banned, and making new accounts. It removes you from the mainstream of players for a while, so I consider it a positive for the environment of LoL. Sure you come back, but for that short time there is 1 less person (the time being when you're leveling an account).

It is your right to speak. It is their right to mute you, and it is Riot's right to remove people from their system of whom they do not approve. You can try to couch it as your right and 'it is just who I am' all you want. However, do not be surprised if those around you think you're a jerk and do not want to interact with you, and Riot removes your account's ability to access their system.

bitPhantom1 votes

Very well written and all fair points, yet still far from what I am trying to do here. I stated that I care about the game, I do not give a fuck about changing. Dude, you are so PC in this post you wrote fuck with a *. Think about that, I don't think I need to say more.

Hethalean3 votes

I'm not PC. I'm just trying to avoid getting punished on the boards. It's a reflection in the environment that I am currently operating, and not my opinion. Sure, I still say it from time to time, but i still try to avoid it.

Just like if I were to go to Turkey, I probably wouldn't bring weed, even if I were to like it. or if I thought stealing was ok, I might not steal in Sharia controlled Saudi Arabia

Umbral Regent3 votes

I think it is about time we start a serious discussion about "flaming" in game and people getting permanently banned around it.

I can already sense where this discussion is about to go.

Today, I was banned on my sixth consecutive account and, while I understand that my claims will be entirely dismissed...

Congratulations. But no, your claims will not be dismissed by default based on your number of banned accounts. They'll be regarded with scrutiny, since it's hard to expect someone who consistently gets banned to really have the right mind about such a discussion, but it won't be dismissed outright.

...because you are blind to gaming reality, I decided that enough was enough and that it is time that somebody told you the truth.

What is the truth? The truth is that PLAYERS FLAME, have flamed and always will flame.

Now, your claims are likely to get dismissed. "Players have always/will always flame" is not an objective truth. "Gaming reality" isn't that human beings are just going to be rampant assholes and flame each other all day long. No, that's hardly reality.

Gotta give props on not using the "competition breeds vitriol" argument, but your argument still is far from valid. I've played games and been in communities (both competitive and non-competitive games/communities) which have had plenty of stellar, friendly people. People who don't flame 24/7, no less. To claim that "players will always flame" is a flat-out lie. Some players will flame. A great many others won't.

I don't know how it is in the Valley with your fake PC culture and everything being sunshine and rainbows but that is the reality, face it.

Is that the "SJW/safespace" argument? Oh, please.

Yes, reality is harsh. No, not every single aspect of it has to be full of unbridled vitriol and hate. Videogames are meant for enjoyment. If you can't enjoy a videogame for what it is, without adding in your senseless flame and vitriol, then videogames are probably an aspect of life unsuited to you.

Please explain to me what is so wrong that I did?

Well...

You spent the vast majority of the game in FULL UPPER CASE, threw out several insults, one of which was hate speech, spent pretty much the entirety of the match raging against your team, demanding them to shut up, etc. - let's face it. That match was so bad that explanations for what you did wrong are completely unnecessary.

Because we play with emotions and actually give a shit, the very people who like this game the most.

  1. Having emotions isn't a valid excuse for letting said emotions just run amok. Y'know those children who scream and cry when they don't get their toy or candy bar from the store? That's what you become when you let your emotions take the wheel like you did in that match.
  2. Giving a shit also isn't an excuse to throw a fit. You can care and actually be calm about it.
  3. The people who like the game the most tend to follow the rules, not expect the rules to bend to their wishes.

What you are doing is fascist...

If they were being fascist, this post wouldn't still be up.

...preventing freedom of speech...

Freedom of Speech only prevents the Government from making laws to prohibit what you're allowed to say, with the exception of generally unlawful speech. It does not protect you against private companies enforcing their own rules.

There has never been a game where players were forbidden to express what they think.

You're right, there has never been a game where players are forbidden to express their thoughts. Within reason. And, as it stands, League is not an exception.

I DO:

  • tell players they are stupid, fucking dumb, useless and similar when their actions hurt the team
  • use caps, swear words, ping on people excessively

Telling players they're stupid, fucking dumb, useless, and similar - that's all against the rules. It's common knowledge that being an asshole like that is gonna have repercussions.

Using caps is fine in moderation, using swears is fine if you don't level them at players, and pinging people excessively...C'mon. That's immature, and it's also generally against the rules.

You wanna be a sport? This is what sports are like, a dirty place where people talk shit because they understand that in the end everything that matters is TO WIN.

Winning matters, but also having fun. Being an asshole does not help you win, and neither does throwing nuclear-level shitfits or chewing out your teammates for the smallest mistakes. That kinda behavior gets you kicked off of teams, believe it or not.

So how about you understand that from a business perspective and start treating your player base accordingly to retain what you have built.

...That's what they've been doing, though? They treat the playerbase by getting rid of toxic players, because toxic players drive off business.

Until then, I will just keep creating new accounts and will keep doing what I do, because I do not give a fuck.

Enjoy wasting your time.

bitPhantom1 votes

Gonna try to space answer to answer, but to keep the general point to my post which is that flaming is the part of the game that won't change. I'm not gonna touch your political sentances. Without further ado:

_Now, your claims are likely to get dismissed. "Players have always/will always flame" is not an objective truth. "Gaming reality" isn't that human beings are just going to be rampant assholes and flame each other all day long. No, that's hardly reality.

Gotta give props on not using the "competition breeds vitriol" argument, but your argument still is far from valid. I've played games and been in communities (both competitive and non-competitive games/communities) which have had plenty of stellar, friendly people. People who don't flame 24/7, no less. To claim that "players will always flame" is a flat-out lie. Some players will flame. A great many others won't._

-> I agree 100% with what you said other than the fact where you say that great many others won't. From my experience that is also derived from professional and hobby gaming I would say that it's about 50/50.

You spent the vast majority of the game in FULL UPPER CASE, threw out several insults, one of which was hate speech, spent pretty much the entirety of the match raging against your team, demanding them to shut up, etc. - let's face it. That match was so bad that explanations for what you did wrong are completely unnecessary.

-> Which one was hate speach lmao? The match was good for me btw, I told them to shut up because 3 of the players blamed me for their wrongdoings, something I do not do btw.

1) Having emotions isn't a valid excuse for letting said emotions just run amok. Y'know those children who scream and cry when they don't get their toy or candy bar from the store? That's what you become when you let your emotions take the wheel like you did in that match. 2) Giving a shit also isn't an excuse to throw a fit. You can care and actually be calm about it. 3) The people who like the game the most tend to follow the rules, not expect the rules to bend to their wishes.

  1. I don't let them run amok, I use them to my advantage to get people to stop doign what they are doing.
  2. It never was an excuse.
  3. I don't want the rules to be bended, I want them to change all together.

_Telling players they're stupid, fucking dumb, useless, and similar - that's all against the rules. It's common knowledge that being an asshole like that is gonna have repercussions.

Using caps is fine in moderation, using swears is fine if you don't level them at players, and pinging people excessively...C'mon. That's immature, and it's also generally against the rules._

What is wrong with "being an asshole"? LOL, it's about teamwork and winning and if being an asshole is required for me to get the team to do what is right so what.

In conclusion, I do want the rules to change and I want this game to be less toxic by allowing people to express their thoughts. Yes, I am an extreme example but I had multiple friends getting suspensions just by telling people what they did wrong. I don't need shepards guiding me, but maybe you do, idk.

Umbral Regent4 votes

I'm not gonna touch your political sentances.

That's good, because I didn't bring up politics. Unless you're talking about the mention of Fascism, which...You brought up to begin with.

Which one was hate speach lmao?

This line:

bitPhantom: YOU TARDS CANT EVEN DO THAT

Bolded for specificity.

I don't let them run amok, I use them to my advantage to get people to stop doign what they are doing.

Well, judging by your chat being filled with rampant flaming, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's a lie.

It never was an excuse.

You said, and I quote:

You wanna know why we do it? Because we play with emotions and actually give a shit...

That's pretty much the definition of an excuse. "I do this because I care" - you're implying that because you "care", you should be allowed to do this, or that it somehow excuses you from doing it.

I don't want the rules to be bended, I want them to change all together.

Same thing, essentially.

What is wrong with "being an asshole"? LOL, it's about teamwork and winning and if being an asshole is required for me to get the team to do what is right so what.

Has being an asshole ever worked?

Besides, it isn't required. It is not required at all to be an asshole. You choose to be an asshole because you think it'll somehow make people do what you want.

It won't.

Being an asshole =/= teamwork.

Summonah123693 votes

You give gamers a bad name, making it look like society should accept toxicity in gaming.

bitPhantom1 votes

It's not toxicity. It's like going to work or playing basketball or anything else where you say somebody fucked up and you get mad at them. But not here, ohnono, I give gamers a bad name.

Summonah123694 votes

{quoted}

It's not toxicity. It's like going to work or playing basketball or anything else where you say somebody fucked up and you get mad at them. But not here, ohnono, I give gamers a bad name.

Yes, you are giving us a bad name.

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