Boards›Player Behavior

Improving Reform

ThaJoka··2 votes·497 views

After having discussions with a few members of Riot support I decided to finally create a thread to express some concerns I have with the reform policy. For some context, I was suspended for 14 days right before the end of the season and rightfully so. I'm not here to prove my innocence or claim I was wrongfully banned. My main issue lies in the system in place for reform. Firstly, I was suspended right at the end of the season resulting in no end of season rewards. This normally wouldn't bother me as much as it does if it wasn't for the lack of fairness spread out with punishments. Why is a player banned at the start of a new season given months to reform and gain their season rewards, while someone in my situation is punished strictly based on timing? To go along with that, the honor system as I'm sure you've all heard by now is an absolute nightmare in the lower levels, specifically 0 and 1. As a player with roughly a month worth of games and seeing absolutely no improvement is not very convincing. With my conversation with a staff member, I was told so far the only reason I haven't improved was because of one game where I typed a total of 6 lines that may be deemed negative resulting in a complete loss of progress.

This leads me to my second point related to the timing of punishments and lack of border given. Loading up into a game months after your punishment and receiving some comment directed towards your lack of border is extremely disheartening. This is an immediate topic of discussion and potentially leads to toxicity right out of the gate. Like I said, I'm not here to argue my punishment and I do think it was deserved. However, I'd like to see improvements to reform and at least other opinions on this issue. I see two outcomes where everyone is punished equally over the course of a season with regards to the end of season rewards, or everyone is given the chance to reform equally to obtain them. Picking and choosing based on various situations and timings of the punishments does not seem fair, at least to someone in my situation. I would like some feedback on this topic, and hopefully someone on the Player Behavior team can help me understand why this is.

21 Comments

Magical Player1 votes

Because if you reform you should be allowed back with the herd It takes 3-6 months to reform Nov 11th was the end of season reform for rewards was 3 months prior Interesting correlation there isn't it

ThaJoka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Fr2mmLvo,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-12-05T01:42:03.436+0000)

Because if you reform you should be allowed back with the herd It takes 3-6 months to reform Nov 11th was the end of season reform for rewards was 3 months prior Interesting correlation there isn't it

But my point still stands, is it fair that one group of players are given the chance to reform while others are not? Despite the whole issue with timing one group is given the chance while another has to just wipe a season from existence. I get what you're saying, it just seems unfair still.

Magical Player1 votes

Riot is literally setting the cut off period to the same point as the "reform period" If you haven't started to reform prior to that cut off you have no way of finishing the season as a reformed player If you don't reform you don't get goodies

If you decide to be toxic regardless you get punished, we agree if your toxic early riot is giving you time to understand the issue so you can reform it takes about 3-6 months If you have no way to complete the 3 month reform period then you can't get back into good standing therefore have no way to be classified as reformed So yes while they do divvy the toxic reformed vs toxic unreformed Its a way to tell people if you reform you can still get rewarded, thus promoting them to be better while those who are after get "dicked" because they have no way to reform in time. However unless it was for a 14 day ban, you still got rewards as long as you finished without a chat restriction after the cut off date

ThaJoka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Fr2mmLvo,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-05T04:57:27.887+0000)

Riot is literally setting the cut off period to the same point as the "reform period" If you haven't started to reform prior to that cut off you have no way of finishing the season as a reformed player If you don't reform you don't get goodies

If you decide to be toxic regardless you get punished, we agree if your toxic early riot is giving you time to understand the issue so you can reform it takes about 3-6 months If you have no way to complete the 3 month reform period then you can't get back into good standing therefore have no way to be classified as reformed So yes while they do divvy the toxic reformed vs toxic unreformed Its a way to tell people if you reform you can still get rewarded, thus promoting them to be better while those who are after get "dicked" because they have no way to reform in time. However unless it was for a 14 day ban, you still got rewards as long as you finished without a chat restriction after the cut off date

Right, but my issue is that there is no difference between someone that was 14 day banned in March vs someone 14 day banned in October. There should be a consistency between punishment and reward. Either give all players 3 months to be obtain their end of season rewards, or make it so that all players suspended during a season receive no rewards. Why create complications for two sets of people when they are identical in all aspects?

Magical Player1 votes

Riot believes in reform someone in march has time to reform someone in October doesnt Aside from them not being identical

The consistency is riot believes people capable of reform from the 3rd punishment but if you don't have the time to show reform, then you can't reform Riot wants people to reform rather than banning them

ThaJoka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Fr2mmLvo,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-05T05:50:30.846+0000)

Riot believes in reform someone in march has time to reform someone in October doesnt Aside from them not being identical

The consistency is riot believes people capable of reform from the 3rd punishment but if you don't have the time to show reform, then you can't reform Riot wants people to reform rather than banning them

You've completely lost me now lol. I think I see your point but I can't tell whether you're in agreement or disagreement with me with the two points I stated.

Magical Player1 votes

"Right, but my issue is that there is no difference between someone that was 14 day banned in March vs someone 14 day banned in October." is your point

my point is they are different one has a chance to show reform the other does not

ThaJoka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Fr2mmLvo,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-05T06:39:11.179+0000)

"Right, but my issue is that there is no difference between someone that was 14 day banned in March vs someone 14 day banned in October." is your point

my point is they are different one has a chance to show reform the other does not

Yeah I agree and that's where this unfairness stems from. I assume we're on the same page here, both players should get a chance at reform in terms of receiving end of season rewards, it should not favor one group over another.

Magical Player1 votes

Nope I believe that 3 months is a fair time period to show reform in if you're punished with less than 3 months remaining There is no way for you to actually reform in time I believe that the system is fair since it does acknowledge people have tendency to be a little toxic, but wants to stress that reforming is good. if you're toxic enough to get a 14 day ban under 3 months from the end of season you are not going to reform fast enough I believe the system to be extremely fair and rewarding

ThaJoka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Fr2mmLvo,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-05T07:23:27.892+0000)

Nope I believe that 3 months is a fair time period to show reform in if you're punished with less than 3 months remaining There is no way for you to actually reform in time I believe that the system is fair since it does acknowledge people have tendency to be a little toxic, but wants to stress that reforming is good. if you're toxic enough to get a 14 day ban under 3 months from the end of season you are not going to reform fast enough I believe the system to be extremely fair and rewarding

Ok so I raise you the question of why people within the 3 month period aren't at least given the chance to reform into the new season? If three months is more than enough time to reform back to a positive level, shouldn't this opportunity be given to ALL players? Give a player that had a suspension at an unfortunate time a 3 month period to regain the rewards just like everyone else.

Magical Player1 votes

You require at least 3 months to reform so the cut off date is the point of no reform You literally can not reform in the systems eyes that is fair Everyone is held to that standard it was the same for the past 2 years

ThaJoka1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Magical Player,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Fr2mmLvo,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-05T07:50:01.410+0000)

You require at least 3 months to reform so the cut off date is the point of no reform You literally can not reform in the systems eyes that is fair Everyone is held to that standard it was the same for the past 2 years

It has been like this for 2 years but I’m still not convinced this is right. Give all players equal opportunity to reform. Forgive my horrible analogy but this is the best example I could come up with. Two kids suspended from school over bullying.

Student A: Suspended for 14 days, 3 months later no one knows they were suspended and they go on with the semester.

Student B: Suspended for 14 days for the exact same incident at a later date. 3 months later, everyone is well aware you were suspended and there’s a possibility they are belittled for it.

This may sound like an awful example but think about it. In terms of League, student A is punished for the same reason as student B but the results are completely different. Student A is “reformed” but able to remove all traces of punishment for the season and move on. Meanwhile student B who is suspended for the exact same issue, has a lingering effect with their punishment. No border instantly tells your teammates you’re toxic and like I said opens room for negativity. Along with this, one is given the chance to reform with reward while the other cannot. In my case, the three months to reform means absolutely nothing. Three months will pass and nothing will change. Person A and person B will have made the same progress in reform and the same progress in returning their respective honor levels. The only difference is how the end of season rewards are handled and it is NOT the same. How can you claim that everyone is held to the same standard when they are very clearly being treated differently. I agree that the 3 months is a concrete period of time, but this doesn’t take away from the fact that one group is benefiting while the other is left in the dust. This is why I don’t think they are being treated equally and again excuse my poor analogy.

Magical Player1 votes

Part of the punishment Student A has had to reform and show that he is worth giving his degree to Student B has no time to show reform as such gets no degree. Now he has to repeat the year or take summer school to get out Interesting Treated differently, not really Both earned a punishment both knew in advance that being a dick is bad one decided to be a dick late in the season, kinda an uncontrollable thing outside the user level

yes it does suck but there is limited time, and if its the same with ranking I'm plat now but ended the season gold So I should be given the plat border? No, I ended the season with a status affect on my account Same with reformed or not, if you are in a negative standing you are punished It sucks but its fair

ThaJoka1 votes

I appreciate the responses, but I just don’t think we’ll ever see eye to eye on this. In my opinion, both punishments should be handled the same. Give both players 3 months to wipe their punishments or give both players no rewards over the course of the season. I would love some input from others that have read this, and would absolutely love a red response, but one can only hope.

Magical Player1 votes

The players are given three months to reform But you can’t be rewarded if you didn’t reform in the season. Great you reformed we can’t go back and give you rewards, since when would it end Toxic season 1 clean season 2 here’s season one rewards The system is working great imo

ThaJoka1 votes

I think that's entirely plausible lol. Especially regarding the other points I brought up with negativity surrounding a lack of border and such. The only reason players aren't rewarded for reforming in the season is because they literally aren't given the opportunity to.

Magical Player1 votes

Yep, but its impossible to keep pushing back the season for a few players Once you make the exception to why people who didn't reform prior to the cut off People like me will say why do I not get my plat rewards or diamond rewards for being it during the pre season In a lot of ways its a door best not opened Punishment has to allow for reform, if the reform occurs outside the season of play. Kinda hard to justify retroactively giving rewards

ThaJoka1 votes

Perhaps, but there still is a sense of alienation for players like myself without a border or anything despite 11 months of clean play. I don't want to have to deal with constant comments for an entire year simply because of poor timing. I don't think your example is similar either because you aren't giving someone something undeservedly. Players like myself wouldn't suddenly be getting something we placed higher in. It's simply giving them what they actually earned and not just erasing 11 months from existence. Putting players like myself who are "attempting to reform" in a situation that shows a public badge of shame is very unhealthy for all parties involved.

ThaJoka1 votes

I'm also just going to assume Riot absolutely does not care about this side of issues at this point, so this was probably a waste of time my apologies.

Magical Player1 votes

IDC if you have a border I play with borderless friends, randos, and teams all the time Border means nothing Its a personal victory for you, nothing more nothing less. Riot does care about summoners thoughts and opinions I'm just voicing my thoughts to yours. "badge of shame" or "badge of reform" I can tell you right now I know plenty of toxic border players, that skirt the punishment system or talk shit in discord Borderless players generally are showing reform simply by playing. So if you're borderless don't see it as a shame, see it as a+ since you're showing you can reform and not get kicked out. Like Damn, you broke the rules and are still kickin here. You just did something 99% couldnt do. Thats fucking lit But I dont think its rewardable. best of luck. theres always next season and hopefully not a graves skin

ThaJoka1 votes

But Riot seems to care a hell of a lot about avoiding toxicity in games. Despite your personal experience, mine so far has been a handful of occasions of literally the first seconds loading into a game someone making a backhand remark about your obvious ban and attempt to take advantage of your situation. Regardless, this whole situation could very easily be avoided if given the actual chance to reform. Not leaving a player like myself completely alienated despite being punished for the exact same thing as others.

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