Why can't the "Enemy Missing" ping be changed visually so it can't be used negatively?

Fire Catto·Sep 10, 2019·9 votes·3,050 views

Nobody can deny that the "Enemy Missing" ping gets abused in toxic ways all the time. It happens thousands upon thousands of times every day, where players spam ping their teammates with the question mark ping in a passive aggressive way. This can be enough to set people off sometimes, causing fighting and bad behavior. In order to combat toxicity, we should take away more of the player's ability to be toxic. And at the risk of sounding rude here, anyone who doesn't want the ping to be changed is either abusing it for toxic purposes or simply doesn't like change. These are very bad reasons to keep the ping as it is.

Truth be told while there are many ways to be toxic, making it harder to be toxic will certainly make a difference. There are players who genuinely think "I can't get in trouble if I don't chat, I'll just spam pings instead." Of course while this logic isn't true (Bad actions have consequences and malicious intent is difficult to hide) people still abuse the missing ping and it still causes others to get frustrated, tilted and so on. Believe me, ping spammers have turned matches into a raging wildfire and it'll always happen. Especially due to the power of the passive aggressive question mark. (Side note: Maybe ping spam should be nerfed?)

You might argue that one can simply mute another player's pings, but this isn't a very solid argument: You might miss a valuable ping from that spamming jerk who, at some point, might decide to stop abusing pings. Muting someone in any way, shape or form should always be a last resort due to the fact that muting puts you at a communications disadvantage, which can have game-changing effects if someone you don't want to hear ends up relaying critical information. This is also why players who enter matches and immediately mute everyone can cause lots of frustration, because failing to communicate and cooperate with the team has many consequences.

With all that being said, there is absolutely no good reason not to change the "Enemy Missing" ping to something that can't be weaponized as a tool of toxicity. As for what it should be changed to, unfortunately I don't have any ideas. But I believe that ping spamming, especially abusing the "Enemy Missing" ping makes up a significant portion of toxicity in matches. It's essentially the go-to tool for those moments when players want to be a huge jerk to their team in a subtle way. (Does Riot even see ping spam in chat logs?)

33 Comments

Imperial PandaaSep 10, 20193 votes

Gonna complain about pinging death timers too then? Pinging ult timers? Items?

Some people will always use certain tools incorrectly. Change the question mark and then they will simply ping regular ones or exclamation points.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Imperial Pandaa,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-10T02:44:07.994+0000)

Gonna complain about pinging death timers too then? Pinging ult timers? Items?

Some people will always use certain tools incorrectly. Change the question mark and then they will simply ping regular ones or exclamation points.

That's part of a bigger issue at hand. Taking away tools of toxicity certainly helps because it limits a player's options to spread negativity and bad behavior. You can argue that players will find another way to be mean, but your post can easily be seen as "We shouldn't combat toxicity because players will always be toxic." And the fact that it'll take very little effort to make pings less viable for toxicity means that something should be done, due to the negative potential that pings have.

And there are many ways to combat the other pings. What if pinging death timers had a team-wide cooldown of 5 seconds per champion pinged, so it can't be spammed? What if you could only ping once every 0.5 seconds? What if they made it so pings go on cooldown a little bit sooner? It's not that difficult to come up with ways to reduce ping-induced toxicity. Believe it or not, many games have turned into a dumpster fire all because of pings before. It happens really often too.

Imperial PandaaSep 10, 20195 votes

Do not put words into my mouth.

All I said was the fact there are other pings that "say" the same things when used incorrectly.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

There's a difference between showing someone that their message might get taken the wrong way, and putting words in someone's mouth. Misuse of pings also has different meanings per ping and context, so I'd hardly say they "say the same things" but rather share a similar purpose when put in the wrong hands. That purpose being toxicity. Either way, what do you have against creative solutions to reduce toxicity? You couldn't possibly support these violent incidents where pings cause or worsen toxicity, right? Surely you must acknowledge not only that they exist, but that pings are often misused. Limiting a toxic player's options is a good thing because it makes them easier to find and punish while taking some of their destructive potential away. I would very much enjoy if Riot would create more innovative ways to prevent and punish toxicity. No one wants a toxic player terrorizing their matches, after all.

Imperial PandaaSep 10, 20194 votes

Tell me, where did I say I was against creative solutions to reduce toxicity? Oh, i never even implied it?

No, I do not see them often misused. I usually see them used correctly.

You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

You're nowhere near as sly as you think you are, but if you support toxicity then that's your decision. Good luck with that.

zPOOPzSep 10, 20194 votes

Are you projecting? You're no where near as sly with your strawman as you think you are.

KFCeytronSep 10, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Catto,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-09-10T02:36:38.715+0000)

anyone who doesn't want the ping to be changed is either abusing it for toxic purposes or simply doesn't like change. These are very bad reasons to keep the ping as it is.

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a stupid jerk! Who disagrees with me?"

[sona-playing]

Pandemic PunchSep 10, 20192 votes

{quoted}

"Anyone who disagrees with me is a stupid jerk! Who disagrees with me?"

[sona-playing]

True

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

To fight against those who seek to end toxicity, is to support toxicity.

KFCeytronSep 10, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Catto,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-09-10T04:30:47.302+0000)

To fight against those who seek to end toxicity, is to support toxicity.

That sort of statement is why your thread is a logical fallacy.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

Ah, so you're fine with hundreds and thousands of matches ending in a toxic dumpster fire every day, thanks to things like ping abuse? I suppose you wouldn't feel bothered if that happened to you, hmm? Really, it makes no sense to be against wanting the game to be a better place. The truth is, if you suggest ways to prevent toxicity then people disagree with you because they don't believe the problem can be improved. But if Riot does nothing, people start raging and crying that the company isn't doing enough to stop toxicity. You want this game to be toxic, you have proved it, you have enabled it and nothing will ever change that. Sorry but the game has improved a lot and it's thanks in part to people like me who never stop believing that League can be a less toxic game. You hate me because I speak the truth. You fear me because deep down you know that you are toxic and you want to abuse pings. Perhaps someday you'll reform, looking back at how wrong you were because you let an ego get in the way of progress.

KFCeytronSep 10, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Catto,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=0006000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-10T04:43:13.087+0000)

Ah, so you're fine with hundreds and thousands of matches ending in a toxic dumpster fire every day, thanks to things like ping abuse? I suppose you wouldn't feel bothered if that happened to you, hmm? Really, it makes no sense to be against wanting the game to be a better place. The truth is, if you suggest ways to prevent toxicity then people disagree with you because they don't believe the problem can be improved. But if Riot does nothing, people start raging and crying that the company isn't doing enough to stop toxicity. You want this game to be toxic, you have proved it, you have enabled it and nothing will ever change that. Sorry but the game has improved a lot and it's thanks in part to people like me who never stop believing that League can be a less toxic game. You hate me because I speak the truth. You fear me because deep down you know that you are toxic and you want to abuse pings. Perhaps someday you'll reform, looking back at how wrong you were because you let an ego get in the way of progress.

https://media.makeameme.org/created/your-logic-is-m4rdkf.jpg

Pandemic PunchSep 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Catto,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2019-09-10T04:30:47.302+0000)

To fight against those who seek to end toxicity, is to support toxicity.

I support toxicity. ESPECIALLY when given the choice between toxicity or this system that so many previous casters, previous Rioters, pro players, streamers, and pro coaches/analysts have spoken out against. I also support toxicity over passive aggressiveness. It is a better world when I know where people truly stand and how they really feel. It is a lot worse when they are being sneaky and bending the rules so they can use the system against you out of spite. Tough shit for those who don't know the key words and more power to those that do.

I already said too much though because you are complaining about question marks.

TrulyBlandSep 10, 20191 votes

I think we should just get rid of all pings, and chat, and any player interaction whatsoever. Let's also get rid of 5v5 gamemodes. At most games should be 1v1. Preferably though, everything should just be single player PvE.

Since I seek to end toxicity, clearly you won't object to my ideas, right?

ZleraSep 10, 20192 votes

I mean, the assist me ping can be used in the same way. Spamming that little blue flag is just as toxic as the "?" ping.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I mean, the assist me ping can be used in the same way. Spamming that little blue flag is just as toxic as the "?" ping.

I'd argue that the only reason that ping can be used in a negative manner is due to spam, with a portion of it's negative potential being used after death to say "Why didn't you help me" in a passive aggressive way. Disabling it on death is a double-edged sword though, because sometimes you need to ping objectives after you die from the aftermath of a teamfight or skirmish. Still, pings cause a lot of toxicity and I believe there are many ways to reduce harmful incidents that happen in matches due to (or played in part by) pings.

MrFawknSunshineSep 10, 20192 votes

doesnt everything get abused in toxic ways?

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

doesnt everything get abused in toxic ways?

There are many ways to be toxic on League of Legends, but removing tools of toxicity certainly has an impact. After all, remember when the summoner spell Revive was in the game? It got used for intentionally feeding quite a lot, although I forget the primary reason it was removed. Might have been because it wasn't a good spell, or didn't belong in the game? Of course, imagine what the game would be like nowadays if Revive was still a summoner spell. Fights break out in champion select quite often, it would be very possible for an angry player to switch a summoner spell to Revive just to start feeding hard once in-game, all over petty reasons. Why not change something as simple as pings and reduce toxicity? When toxic players have less options they're easier to find and punish and have less destructive potential.

EedatSep 10, 20192 votes

Honestly I think you're massively overrating and quite a bit delusional if you think people won't just come up with a different way of being passive aggressive. Ok so they switch the ? ping to something else then people just use a new ping to spam. Or just use the normal ping and spam it on top of you. Do you remove pings altogether then? Hell no. Pings are extremely useful. More useful than typing most of the time and the missing enemy ping is one of the more useful ones to boot. Even if you did remove all pings that wouldn't stop people.

Then you would just be back at square one where the solution is to mute them and you've solved absolutely nothing

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I think you're massively overrating and quite a bit delusional if you think people won't just come up with a different way of being passive aggressive. Ok so they switch the ? ping to something else then people just use a new ping to spam. Or just use the normal ping and spam it on top of you. Do you remove pings altogether then? Hell no. Pings are extremely useful. More useful than typing most of the time and the missing enemy ping is one of the more useful ones to boot. Even if you did remove all pings that wouldn't stop people.

Then you would just be back at square one where the solution is to mute them and you've solved absolutely nothing

Again, this is part of a bigger issue at hand. With all due respect your post can be seen as "We shouldn't do anything to stop toxicity because players will always be toxic" which is a rather negative mentality to begin with, but I'm sure that's not the message you were trying to convey. There are ways to prevent pings from being used in a negative and destructive manner without heavily restricting the usefulness of pings. Furthermore it's rather rude of you to call me delusional. Are you truly unaware of how much fighting and toxicity happens all because of pings? Misuse of pings can spread negativity into the environment and make players more likely to yell at others and act toxic. Something has to be done because there are too many matches where everything goes horribly wrong because of one or more players abusing pings. It's like a snowball or butterfly effect. Why should we do nothing about toxicity when we have clear and easy methods of reducing toxicity?

EedatSep 10, 20195 votes

With all due respect your post can be seen as "We shouldn't do anything to stop toxicity because players will always be toxic"

Please stop doing this. You did this in the OP as well. That is not what I said. I never said that we should give up punishing toxic players. I never said anything of the sort. You did this exact same thing in the OP with your "anyone who doesn't want the ping to be changed is either abusing it for toxic purposes or simply doesn't like change" line.

You are just attempting to disarm people who disagree by putting words in their mouth or insinuating negative things. Funny enough, that's actually a form of passive aggressiveness.

You also pull the common strategy of leaving yourself an out. You imply that's what I mean then stuck a "I'm sure that's not what you meant" afterwards knowing full well the whole point was to imply that was what I meant. This allows you to imply whatever you want or plant an idea in others' heads while leaving room to deny it later. Another example of this would be saying "no offense but...." in front of something offensive. The primary goal was to say something to offend someone while leaving an out or deniability later.

I'm sorry but a strategy that common rarely works on people who pay attention.

I already addressed the removal of pings in my first post. Pings are far too useful of a tool to just remove when there are better options. It's 2019 and people need to understand that you need to have at least a little thick skin built up when you use the internet. I'm not saying you should have to deal with an essay of verbal abuse directed at you. That is obviously punishable. But if you can't handle an extremely useful tool being misused sometimes when you have the option to just not hear it. Should we remove chat and pings because people misuse them? Of course not.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20192 votes

I think you're taking this way too personal, please calm down. I was simply preemptively countering common and predictable arguments, not trying to personally attack anyone. And why would I have such intentions, if the purpose of this thread was to bring up an issue regarding toxicity while bringing up methods of preventing destructive behavior? I'd like to remind you that you called me "Delusional" which was very rude, and now you're insinuating that I'm resorting to fancy and manipulative tricks? There's no smoke and mirrors here, I simply want to change pings for the better so that they're abused less and have less potential to be used as a weapon of toxicity.

Also, where did I say that I wanted pings removed? The very title of the thread mentions to change the ping visually, not remove pings entirely. I have mentioned multiple times in this thread that there are many creative solutions for making pings less toxic without hindering their usefulness. Finally, using "Just grow thicker skin, it's the internet" is a very poor argument because it shows that you accept things being toxic and negative, rather than being open to fight against it with creative solutions. While thick skin is helpful, it doesn't change the fact that actions should have consequences. Asking everyone to just deal with it and let it happen isn't the answer. Not everyone who points out negativity or injustice is a helpless victim either, I see that things are wrong and I want them corrected. As would anyone who wants something they enjoy to be less negative. You're jumping to conclusions and being very hostile simply because I suggested a small visual change that can help lower toxicity in some areas. There is still an audio cue for pings as well as multiple visual pings because they appear on the chat, map and mini map so changing the question mark to something else isn't going to ruin it's usefulness.

EedatSep 10, 20194 votes

I was simply preemptively countering common and predictable arguments

Errrrr no thats not what you did. First of all, you called out everyone who disagrees regardless of their point and called them either toxic or stubborn in the OP. That is not preemptively addressing a concern. That is a preemptive attack on everyone who disagrees.

Second, you weren't countering a point I made. You implied I made a point that I clearly did not then implied I have a negative mentality for having the stance that you made up for me. This is commonly referred to as a straw man argument. You erect a false or exaggerated point of the other person which you can then easily use to attack their argument or character.

You also imply that it's the actual question mark that makes people upset or angry and not the intent behind it which is just silly. You think that if they changed the question mark to something else it would actually change anything? No lol. It's the intent of the person that starts fights, not a punctuation mark.

The rest of this really just devolves into the classic idealist vs realist argument. I think it's an absurd idea that you will ever rid the internet of assholes. I mean yeah it would be cool if we could do it but it's just never ever going to happen. So in much the same way that you shouldn't have to lock your door because stealing is wrong, you should still lock your door because there are still thieves out there.

No matter what change you make, people will just find new methods to ride the line and get across what they want to get across. As a matter of fact, I have actual proof of this from this very game. Do you know why the punishment system is set up the way it is? Because way back when we didnt have bans for chat in LoL. You just got longer and longer chat restrictions scaling infinitely. What Riot found was that when you removed players' ability to communicate, they often resorted to more serious and harder to detect ways to get their point across like trolling or soft inting. Thats just how it is

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

I'm deeply sorry that you felt attacked and even frustrated at my goal to find solutions to reduce toxicity. Please, let's be civil and reasonable here. I suggested a simple idea that takes little effort and can go a long way towards reducing toxicity with no downsides. To disagree with this would undeniably be to support toxicity. And having the mentality that nothing should be done because nothing matters, well, that doesn't make for a very solid argument. You disagree with the idea simply because it doesn't immediately solve the entire problem. This logic can be comparable to something like saying people who are sick shouldn't receive treatment if their illness doesn't have a cure, because the illness will always be there. Truth be told, League of Legends is only a toxic place because the players want it to be. You choose to do nothing and accept things for how they are. Because if enough people did something, then progress would be made, but unfortunately everyone is stuck under the defeatist mindset of "I'm not gonna do anything because nobody else is gonna do anything." Which is painfully ironic. Inaction can have just as much consequence as action. Just because some may have been bred to believe nothing they do matters, doesn't mean that change is impossible. But know that you chose to fight for toxicity on this day, rather than against it.

EedatSep 10, 20192 votes

Please, let's be civil and reasonable here.

Alright cool

To disagree with this would undeniably be to support toxicity.

Sigh

Sinful SuccubusSep 10, 20191 votes

i think the word you're looking for is "strawman"

Pandemic PunchSep 10, 20192 votes

If you are triggered by a question mark, mute the pings. Also, you might not want to read anything ever since there are question marks everywhere. See?

Fire CattoSep 10, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pandemic Punch,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-10T03:48:01.983+0000)

If you are triggered by a question mark, mute the pings. Also, you might not want to read anything ever since there are question marks everywhere. See?

Assuming that one is "triggered" simply because they choose to point out an issue is very negative and rude behavior. Is wanting the game to be a nicer, healthier, more positive and less toxic place truly a bad thing to desire? Saying "Just ignore it" doesn't solve the problem either because sometimes all it takes is a few malicious pings to make a match spiral out of control. While I don't let it bother me, I see it happen around me all the time. It's something that's been happening for years. Ignoring problems only makes them worse, because I've seen people AFK, feed and have outbursts all over something as simple as pings. It might not be a big deal to you, but it's something that's brought negativity to millions of matches in all the years that League of Legends has been around. Hundreds and thousands of ping spamming incidents happen every day and many of them are responsible for players acting toxic, leading to matches resulting in defeat because of negativity and malicious intent. So why should we let this continue? Do you support these incidents?

Tele IISep 10, 20191 votes

Certainly a basic solution. Pretty good, but you know people will just abuse pings no matter what. Theyll just use something else, ans you'll realize it wasnt the question mark that was bothering you.

Fire CattoSep 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tele II,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-10T03:22:31.219+0000)

Certainly a basic solution. Pretty good, but you know people will just abuse pings no matter what. Theyll just use something else, ans you'll realize it wasnt the question mark that was bothering you.

Perhaps I should have expanded upon this issue, although I did hint at it by saying "Maybe ping spam should be nerfed" at the end of the second paragraph. Yes, it's true that pings as a whole have many ways of being abused, most of which involve spamming. Contextual abuse of pings is certainly very toxic, although spamming pings is already enough to cause trouble. But there are ways to reduce the negative potential of pings without heavily restricting their usefulness. Such as a 1 second cooldown inbetween pings, giving death timers a 5 second team-wide cooldown per death timer pinged, making pings go on cooldown a little bit sooner and so on. One shouldn't have to spam pings in order for them to be acknowledged, especially since there are players who ignore even the most crucial of pings with or without spam. I'd say that one or two pings of the same type are usually enough, but unfortunately not everyone would agree.

Tele IISep 10, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fire Catto,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=FRK3BPqw,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2019-09-10T03:33:38.874+0000)

Perhaps I should have expanded upon this issue, although I did hint at it by saying "Maybe ping spam should be nerfed" at the end of the second paragraph. Yes, it's true that pings as a whole have many ways of being abused, most of which involve spamming. Contextual abuse of pings is certainly very toxic, although spamming pings is already enough to cause trouble. But there are ways to reduce the negative potential of pings without heavily restricting their usefulness. Such as a 1 second cooldown inbetween pings, giving death timers a 5 second team-wide cooldown per death timer pinged, making pings go on cooldown a little bit sooner and so on. One shouldn't have to spam pings in order for them to be acknowledged, especially since there are players who ignore even the most crucial of pings with or without spam. I'd say that one or two pings of the same type are usually enough, but unfortunately not everyone would agree.

Okay yeah i agree.

101EvseySep 10, 20191 votes

IF anyone has played SMITE their ping system is so good. Plus while you do get one or two toxic people, the worst they can ping you is 'you rock' 'cancel that' hahaha