Chat restricted after 1 negative game

57428549DEL1·Apr 30, 2018·1 votes·1,605 views

Hey all,

After 1 game with some negative speech back and forth with another player I was chat restricted.

It's sad to think that the only reason this happened is because a toxic player insulted me, I didn't ignore it like I should have, and they cherry picked the exchange.

Be aware that a single negative exchange can result in consequences on your account regardless if you're the offending party or not.

It seems like RIOT cares more about the appearance of an honor system than a way to actually reward good players and punish negative ones.

Long story short, insult someone, clip any negative response and send feedback first, and they'll be punished.

35 Comments

ChermorgMay 1, 20185 votes

It's sad to think that the only reason this happened is because a toxic player insulted me, I didn't ignore it like I should have, and they cherry picked the exchange.

So, you really should just leave out the first part... and the last part of this is all wrong. It's more like: "the only reason this happened is because I retaliated against someone else with more toxicity, adding to the negative environment in the game, instead of muting and/or ignoring them".

You are correct - a single negative exchange, if bad enough and/or depending on your history, may result in a restriction. It does not mean, however, that every single other game you have played has been more than stellar behavior. The reform card will only show you games within the past week or so of active play (maybe slightly longer - point is there's a time limit). However, if you behave poorly in games, they won't "fall off your record" so to speak until you have a couple months of good behavior.

RealDealNeilApr 30, 20182 votes

Just because someone else was typing negatively in chat doesn't mean it's okay if you do it. I understand that if someone is insulting you, you have the urge to type back to them, but the best thing you can do is mute the toxic player, report them after the match and move on.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

How about punishing both offending parties? This isnt just an issue of being human and answering meaner than you should when someone is mean to you.

It's an issue that just because someone decided to clip text first, that they're able to get other people in trouble.

ChermorgMay 1, 20183 votes

No, players don't clip text. When a player is reported, the entire log of what they said is reviewed.

If you reported the other player, their account would have been investigated and appropriate action taken. You are not guaranteed to receive notification of action taken against other players.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

Players can't include clipped text in the after game details form? Last time I played they could.

Also you're telling me a RIOT employee treats an after game report that includes a player clipped transcript, and one without any additional information, the exact same?

ChermorgMay 1, 20183 votes

The system is automated and only scans the report box for a few things that "guide" it to the toxic text/behavior (ex: if a player types "was toxic in pregame chat" it will ensure pregame chat is checked and reported to the user if punishment is warranted).

The only time the "clipped text" or report clarification comes into play is in a manual review - which happens only to verify accuracy of the automated system (or for extremely toxic behavior such as terroristic threats and the like). Other than that, the automated system treats every report the same (aside from using the clarification to look for pre/post game lobby toxicity). When you're reported, your entire log is checked by the system. It checks only your chat - as it doesn't matter what you're responding to or who "triggered" you - you're responsible for what you say.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

Ok so knowing this a report should have been sent on the other player saying the key words of "was toxic during the entire match" which would elevate the report. So a report with included details gets a manual check/swifter action than a report without included details. So you're saying it's paramount that whether your intentions are honesty or toxicity, fill out the details form.

Not "triggered". It's sad that context isn't checked or even valued, really promotes trolling.

ChermorgMay 1, 20183 votes

No, that's not true. There is no "escalation to manual review" keyword(s). All reports go to the automated system. All. The only ones that are manually reviewed are those which the automated system and/or detailed comments identify as having credible threats of harm against others, or in cases where Riot is manually auditing the accuracy of the system. Aside from those very limited cases (as in, well less than 1% of reports), all punishments are automated through the IFS - a machine learning algorithm that has been proven over years to be more consistent and more accurate in punishment than humans.

Context is not checked because last I checked, your enter key is in front of you and you only. If you chose to respond with toxicity, you are choosing also to accept the consequences of doing so. This isn't like in real life where if someone points a gun to your face you're scared for your life/property. You suffer no irreparable bodily harm from toxicity, trolls, etc - your choice to respond with toxicity is not justified by their toxicity.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

Ok so the "details" information serves no real purpose? Why have it? Especially if it's not accurate.

Context IS important, because someone purposefully trying to be toxic and offend others might cause negativity from someone who is normally positive.

If I insulted you on this board, and clipped just your response, it wouldn't show the entire story of you civilly trying to discuss an issue with RIOT's feedback system.

ChermorgMay 1, 20183 votes

Context is not important. If you are "caused" to be negative by someone else, that is your own problem and your own fault. You are expected to be a civil and respectful player while playing League. If you can't do so, either accept the consequences of your lack of self control, or don't play League.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

You must not play nearly as much league and talk mostly on forums where you have elevated privileges over the average person. It's easier to have self control when you can just delete comments and upvote/downvote.

Context is important as it explains the entire story, and the entire story should be important if punishment is being dealt.

ChermorgMay 1, 20185 votes

No, it doesn't explain the entire story.

The entire story is you pressed enter. You typed toxic things. You pressed enter again. It doesn't matter why you typed the things you did. What matters is that you did. You don't get to make excuses that you were triggered. You're expected to control yourself and control your emotions.

But feel free to keep making personal attacks on me and reductio ad hominems. Your punishment isn't going to change - and with that attitude continuing even after this punishment I would not be surprised to see you back here with another punishment in the future.

I strongly recommend you learn to control your emotions instead of trying to blame others for your problems - first those in your game, now me.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

If you consider what I just said a "personal attack" then calling me triggered is also a "personal attack". Also i'm not seeking a repeal of my simple 10 game chat ban, that's very simple to resolve. I'm just trying to high light the review system could use some work.

I'm not blaming others, i'm blaming the review system.

All to say although I disagree with your opinions, I appreciate you discussing them.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

I'm just trying to give the entire picture. By no means am I saying I was a saint in that exchange after I was insulted.

That restriction wouldn't have happened if the offending player didn't clip my text. How about Riot checks both parties when a restriction like this is handed out? How about both parties are notified that there are better ways to handle the situation?

As a sidenote, where can I see the reform card?

Also thank you for the thoughtful response.

Umbral RegentMay 1, 20182 votes

Let me ask you this: If you were screwing around and playing with a full premade of five players, being nonchalantly toxic (as you're confident your premade wouldn't report you), and, let's say someone was visibly breaking the rules in /all chat. You don't respond, you just mute them and report them.

Then, post-game, you get a chat restriction.

Would you be at all okay with that?

More than that, would you be okay even if you weren't the one to report the player? What if someone on the enemy team reported one of their own for toxicity, and you got punished alongside them despite nobody having any reason to report you? Would that be okay?

'Cause that's the slippery slope you wind up on when you start asking for more people to be reviewed than just the people who are reported.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

You're reaching a bit in that scenario no?

If someone is report gets reviewed, and they didn't do anything wrong, they won't get punished. Where's the slippery slope?

Umbral RegentMay 1, 20181 votes

I'm not reaching at all. There's plenty of people out there who play the game in a full five-man premade so they can abuse the chat without fear of being punished.

The scenario I'm presenting to you is this:

If you broke the rules but nobody had any visible reason to report you for one reason or another, would you accept a punishment for reporting someone who also broke the rules? Would you accept a punishment if someone reported someone else?

The slippery slope is that the IFS works as follows: Report is filed > Player is reviewed > Report is either disregarded or marked as valid > Potential punishments met.

Only the player that gets reported gets reviewed, which is meant to not only allow a fair review (since it disregards anyone's chat but the person who was reported), but also to allow players to decide what they are okay with in the match. If there's a group of five people who all play together and don't have an issue with racial slurs, then, by all means, as long as they keep it out of /all chat, they're free to use them.

Or, in less premade-rigged cases, take for instance someone who doesn't mind light flame. Casual insults, light attacks, etc. - they don't care enough to report someone for that kind of stuff, so, they don't particularly want that player who uses lighter insults to get punished.

If the IFS reviewed (and potentially punished) everyone based off of any one report (so one report means the IFS looks at all nine players), people, who otherwise might not have gotten punished, and who might feel their punishment is undue, would get punished, and the consistency of the IFS (report > review > pass/punish) would be broken, leaving people with no consistent system to trust.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

Starting off, what I'm attempting to communicate is the current system is already inconsistent and untrustable.

That's still a lot of reaching. How about we eliminate your use case, and it's set up that you can't report people on your friends list.

How is not a 2 way review warranted? How does that hurt the non offensive players, if they're already being non offensive?

Umbral RegentMay 1, 20181 votes

Starting off, what I'm attempting to communicate is the current system is already inconsistent and untrustable.

And what makes you say that? The fact that you got punished, and don't know the status or whereabouts of the other player? (which, by the way, neither are really your concern)

Did you report that player? Because, if you did, then I can all but guarantee they've been flagged, if not straight-up received a punishment.

You claim it's inconsistent, but you don't have any proof to that effect. As far as I've seen, the IFS is very consistent. Report > review > pass/punish. And you can see a wealth of the latter result here on the PB boards.

That's still a lot of reaching. How about we eliminate your use case, and it's set up that you can't report people on your friends list.

The case may - in your eyes - be reaching, but the point I'm trying to raise is the same. Would you be okay with being punished for someone else's misbehavior? You break the rules, you ostensibly have no reason to be reported, but you still get punished because someone else did get reported.

We're not talking about reporting friends or anything like that - we're talking about one player being punished when someone else entirely gets reported.

How is not a 2 way review warranted? How does that hurt the non offensive players, if they're already being non offensive?

A two-way review is unwarranted because any player's behavior should only be reviewed IF they are reported. Not if they report someone else. I've already asked the big question of this argument three times, and so far (the first two times) you've avoided answering it.

Aside from the big question, here's a question on the side: If you knew that reporting someone would run the risk of you getting punished as well, would you even want to report someone? You could get punished and stripped of Honor for just trying to help clean up the community. Would that be fair to you?

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

If you did nothing wrong, and a review went two ways, how would you get punished? Is simply reviewing someone one time enough to get them punished?

What currently stops a toxic player from just negatively reviewing the entire enemy team or someone they just don't like?

Does the client review system just cherry pick when you're notified of disciplinary action against another player? Feels like that should be completely transparent, or completely hidden.

Finally I didn't get the chance to review the offending player. Is it possible to review them after the post game screen?

Umbral RegentMay 1, 20181 votes

If you're just going to skirt around an ignore the question(s), I'm not going to continue discussion with you. To that end, I'll ask them one more time.

If you, in some way, break the rules, but you know nobody has reported you (chill teammates, oblivious enemies, etc.), but someone on the enemy team breaks the rules in /all chat, and you decide to report them, would you accept punishment? Would you find a punishment made against you for a report you filed against someone else fair?
Would you even be willing to report someone for their misbehavior, knowing that you would be reviewed as well, and potentially punished and stripped of honor? And this one isn't a stretch, either. Not many people seem to know the boundaries of negative behavior, so it's wholly possible you could get punished.

If you're not willing to answer these two questions, then this discussion is over.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

Ok thanks for numbering them. Your responses seem overly detailed and I'm having a tough time figuring out exactly what you're asking.

Yes, if you're breaking the rules, and report someone for breaking the rules and that gets you caught, then don't break the rules in the first place.
Absolutely. It would make me think twice of reporting others and also make me more introspective of my own behavior.

Now you go ahead and answer the questions.

Umbral RegentMay 1, 20181 votes

If you did nothing wrong, and a review went two ways, how would you get punished? Is simply reviewing(sic) someone one time enough to get them punished?

You wouldn't get punished if you didn't do anything wrong. The issue lies in knowing that the border between acceptable negativity and unacceptable negativity is a thin line.

Reporting someone (I'm gonna assume "reviewing" is a typo here) just once can be enough to get them punished. It depends on the severity and frequency of misbehavior. Consistent unacceptable negativity can take more time to punish, but harsh or severe negativity/inflammatory chat can be punished pretty swiftly.

What currently stops a toxic player from just negatively reviewing(sic) the entire enemy team or someone they just don't like?

Nothing. As far as I know, there aren't any notable punishments for spam reporting (although I'm fairly certain that it's warned against), and report weighting doesn't exist, as there's always the off-chance that the spam reporter might actually nail someone for misbehavior - even if they're only reporting out of spite.

Does the client review(sic) system just cherry pick when you're notified of disciplinary action against another player? Feels like that should be completely transparent, or completely hidden.

Even with info from the boards, it's hard to tell the parameters. Some people say you have to be the first one to report a player, some others say you've got to be the last, others say everyone who reports the player gets the Instant Feedback Report if it's sent when the player's punished...

The only things I know is that the chance of it occurring is dramatically less than 100%, somewhat greater than 0%, and it's really more just a reminder that reports matter than an indicator of a player being punished.

Finally I didn't get the chance to review(sic) the offending player. Is it possible to review(sic) them after the post game screen?

If by some means you couldn't report a player in the post-game lobby, the only other channel you could use to report a player is through submitting a Support Ticket. Someone will look into the player's behavior, but you're guaranteed absolutely zero feedback in regards to what happens to the player, as a player's punishment status is private information.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

Your entire post highlights a simple point. The review system should be transparent and fair, and it's currently neither of those things.

ChermorgMay 1, 20183 votes

I'm going to attempt to clarify what Umbral Regent is saying here (the way I interpret it) - hopefully they don't mind:

You're hanging out with a 5 man premade. Ya'll have some inside jokes that, if you weren't a premade, would be considered toxic and grounds for a report (ex: you call each other idiot or some other insult when x happens). Someone on the enemy team is hard flaming you for whatever reason (you whooped their ass in lane I guess).

You decide to report that player. Are you also okay with your own actions - which were simply banter between friends where everyone accepted it - being reviewed simply because you tried to report someone else toxic?

Riot is not going to implement this type of thing because it would result in less people reporting toxicity because they'd be afraid "what if I actually said something borderline". Riot would prefer more toxicity gets reported - not that it slip under the radar for fear of "retaliatory punishment". It's the same reason that most jurisdictions have a "good samaritan" law protecting those who, for example, report an underage drinker who is passed out with alcohol poisoning. The laws say that you won't be arrested or cited for underage drinking if you're only discovered because you reported someone in medical need.

Similarly, players should never be punished simply because they reported someone else being toxic - even if their own behavior was questionable. If nobody else reported them for their behavior, it obviously wasn't important enough to the other players to justify a punishment.

Umbral RegentMay 1, 20181 votes

I don't mind it at all. Better words come from a (likely) wide-awake Advisor than a grouch who's been up likely longer than he should've.

That said, your interpretation is spot-on.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

So you're saying the only difference between something "borderline" and something "toxic" is whether you get reported or not, which is a terrible system.

A good samaritan law isn't a good comparison, as you're attempting to help someone.

It's more like two people get in a bar fight, someone throws the first punch, and then someone punches back. If both parties aren't held accountable, shouldnt they at least be reviewed? If it turns out someone didn't throw a punch back, they wouldn't get punished anyway.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but a review isn't a punishment unless you've done something wrong right?

ChermorgMay 1, 20183 votes

I did not say that at all. The difference between something toxic and something punishable is if others in the game that see it take offense to it. As I said, if my friend and I say "fuck you" every time we die, and we're the only players in the game, and neither of us report the other, we should not be punished as it was inside and accepted by both. Yet you're suggesting if I report an enemy for toxicity that I should get investigated and punished even though I did nothing wrong. It isn't wrong if nobody cares.

In your example - let's say that two people get in a bar fight. The guy who fought back is scared to talk to the police because "what if the police find me at fault and send me to jail". Thus they just claim "they don't know how it started". Now both people walk free - even the one who "started it".

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

That's not what I'm saying at all. If an enemy reports you, only ALL chat should be reviewed. If my team is ok swearing amongst ourselves, and the enemy team reports me, what would I get in trouble for? There is no communication channel between what I said and the enemy heard.

No, in my example the police would question both parties after an incident, not just the one who said "he hit me first".

ChermorgMay 1, 20182 votes

Again, this would still cause the chilling effect of "well what if I said something slightly bad in all chat? should I risk my account just to report this other player?"

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

What is "slightly bad"? I imagine that varies a lot between person to person.

A two way review would improve the community as unless you were well behaved, you wouldn't have grounds to punish someone for being not well behaved.

ChermorgMay 1, 20182 votes

But that's the problem. You now have two poorly behaved players roaming free because neither reported the other because they were both afraid about their own accounts.

Under the current system, if one reports the other but doesn't get reported back, at least one player gets punished. Even better, if they both report each other both get punished.

You are suggesting we take a 50% or 100% punishment rate and reduce it to virtually 0% because players will be too scared to report each other because they're afraid they may have done something bad.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

No, it would decrease reports, but increase correct punishment rates.

You're operating under the lens that the majority of playes are toxic, when under my lens the majority of players are good.

I'm just trying to say toxicity usually goes two ways, and should be punished both ways.

ChermorgMay 1, 20182 votes

The majority of players are good. But the majority of players also would understand "if I report X for being toxic, and I was even close to toxic, I may be risking a punishment". That is psychology and has been studied in many scientific papers for decades. Systems such as the one you're suggesting don't increase correct punishments in numbers. The correct punishment rate may increase, but the overall number of punishments and reports both go down.

57428549DEL1May 1, 20181 votes

There is psychology and studies that say the opposite of what you're saying as well. We have two different philosophies on how these cases should be handled, your philosophy is currently implemented, so I'll agree it's something I should accept or just not play the game.

Thanks again for the discussion.