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Requesting specific feature to decrease toxicity.

toSafety··2 votes·428 views

So as game evolved through the years, mechanics and systems involved went through changes, for better or worse. Game is constantly changing, moving and point of it all is to reach better state of it, in the end. One part of it didn't follow this path. It was created and left there as placeholder (no one can say it's finished, well-made product, no one). Years pass and nothing is being done about it. I was about to speak up about it a year or two ago, but it's not my job to involve myself into this game to that degree. But they don't show any concern about it as far as i see, so it is time. Is it laziness of riot staff ? Are they stupid ( this one is least likely) ? Or is this their own choice made for better profit?

So can you guess what i'm talking about? Well don't break a leg, it is, of course - instant feedback system, aka automated tribunal, player ban system. Some years ago I remember riot telling about % numbers of banned toxic players and how these numbers are so small and it's all good but every game i enter - it's a shitstorm. Every new account i create i see hordes of new accounts being boosted, with legendary and epic skins and champs bought for rp ( here comes the profit) and the chat toxicity is.. well.. if you didn't create new acc for years and you think game is toxic, you better avoid low level games, unless you are curious how hell looks like. Thing is, when the shitstorm happens, boi i'm not about to denie myself from participating in it (So yes, i'm the toxic one, i'm part of a "problem"). It's fun in a way ! Personally i don't mind it, most of it. Thing is, some people accept it (like me), some people are very strict against it. So the conflict is born.

And when it comes to this big conflict - we have no tool to fix it. Telling that current reporting system works is same as telling that hitler's ideology works (because it actually works, just who does it benefit, does it make sense or does it do justice? ) It just destroys peoples games (more often then not, word "report" itself is starting the problem, escalating the problem, and making finishing blows with it. More often then not it's main toxic element in entire game, together with word "mute". You can't even believe people can turn such words into toxic tools untill you see them do. One of the last games i had before getting yet another account banned for 2 weeks , i remember my midlaner died at lv 2 fight , where he outplayed his opponent, dived for a kill, died. It was fair fight, 1x1, he just fucked up, bigtime. As jgl i saw that fight, giggled a bit, guy fucked up, happens. Noone said nothing to him, but he himself did.. What he could tell us hm?Maybe apology for bad start? Maybe telling that he fucked up and ask for help?No. He told "MUTE ALL" . Jesus crist i thought, and KYS i said. (he threatened with reports, game was completely ruined in every aspect after that. Do you see how many problems were created with tools who are supposed to fix them?) I know , ima stupid monkey, i just can't help, even knowing it's almost insta ban, in my mind - it's worth to slap him verbally, because i can. Because guy is being a joke,i can't deal with it, i lost hope in one of my teammate and if option given ( chat is open) i will focus on that option, rather then focusing on game, for that time. After guy responded with report threats (yet again "mute" was used just as toxic tool, not as feature) , much bullshit was said and done. He did nothing but stole my jgl, flashed for buffs, ended 30 minute game with 1.4k damage or so, which means he was basically afk.

So yes i did that ( did i ? ) , i am part of a problem, and i'm sorry, i feel bad about it too. But i came here not to discuss who's wrong, who's right, who's worse, who's better, i came with an offer, a simple feature to help you, help me, help me-a-likes and who knows, maybe make this game better place. So this feature doesn't really expand or change current system, but it may very well affect everything and in a big way. Similar thing was mentioned by few people before, but never got any attention, even got mocked. So i wanted to make bigger thread, explain everything.. It is "Lock chat" feature (mute me button pre-game without option to turn it back in a game it was applied for. Button should be in champ select, so if you see people being fishy or especially dickheads in champ select, you check a button and when game starts - your chat is locked. You cannot write anything, you cannot see anything. There could be a visible lock in chat area which would remind you what did you do ( that you wanted to focus on game itself, no bullshit). Button should be in-game too, so if you came feeling good and positive and you just got urge to step into shitstorm and ruin game for yourself and others - press of a button and nothing is left for you but 100% focus on the game. ( That's why mute doesn't work, even people who press it, they can press it again, because you are angry and you have option to get back and say everything you wanted to. And even when everyone are mutted, nothing is stoppping you from writing bullshit yourself and ruining game for others). Personally i'm fine with everything when it comes to normal games, but when you climb higher in ranks , people start to fight report war instead of competing in game (bunch of last of my accounts were banned in plat 2, plat 1, promos to diamond, you get the point? ) And i don't want to have option to participate in that. I don't want to see any of it and i'm offering a solid feature which could help me ( and i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one in the world, it would be used by many). And who knows maybe it would fix toxicity completely, at least in chat. I see no reason why this feature could not be implemented : In years and years of this game, i don't remember hearing anything valuable from anyone, only lots of shit; Pings are enough to communicate properly; It's always optional, personally i would only use it for higher ranked play (where everything is bit more sensitive); It's based on different principle, then "mute" (mute is working like this - "you are toxic, i blame you". Blaming others instantly creates toxicity. Very easy to abuse. "Lock chat" is preventing the problem from being even created, which is : " --- > I < --- might start a problem or continue escalating it at any given time during game." The only thing i can come up with to refuse for such feature is profit. If banned people come back (and they all do) and spend rp on skins and champs all over again, if numbers of that are too high, then it makes sense to not fight toxicity, and even keep it on the edge, on purpose. But don't you think it is evil ? Even if it's a game ?

As i'm writing this my 2 week ban is about to drop and i'm about to enter game, again. I don't want to waste yet another account and spread toxicity. I don't want it to be "like always". Things need to change. I always did try my best on a game, and i did my best to be positive, i want to give my team best of me, i want my team to like me, those days where i don't flame ( usually it's those when i'm "chat restricted" =^D) i get so much honor. I want that. But i can't get over myself, i can't live up to these "rules". And many many people can't. And circle keeps spinning - we ruin our games, we get our games ruined everyday, many accounts get banned, more often then not it's just bullshit flame, it's really unfair for everyone. Because of that low level games are nightmare, actual new player is instantly a goner after he tries to level up his fresh account, toxicity itself stops positive players from playing. It's just bad model overall. So give this some attention, let's break walls today. And you don't even need to hold a hammer, i will. I hope many will follow, we can make things greater! [sg-ezreal]

/// /// TLDR /// : Full chat lock feature pre-game without option to turn it back on in a game which it was applied for. Button in champ select but available in game too. Based on principal of removing problem itself rather then trying to stop it in it's tracks. ( "--> I <-- might create a problem or escalate it at any given time during game so i prevent that with option given for this specific game by my own choice . //VS// "You are toxic, i blame you, i mute you. I still blame you, i write shit, i unmute , i listen to shit, i write more shit, reports to everyone." /// ///

(EDIT) : well shit this went out of control and I kept myself from explaining and saying so much, still such long text, tldr included.

12 Comments

Icy Hot Shoto4 votes

But... if you look through the very board you posted in... you'd notice that the ifs DOES indeed work.

You don't always get a notification if someone is punished, either. Your report has to be the one that can get them punished.

Also, a first time offense wont always gain a punishment. Sometimes it takes repeated behavior, especially if what they're doing is minor.

toSafety2 votes

{quoted}

But... if you look through the very board you posted in... you'd notice that the ifs DOES indeed work.

You don't always get a notification if someone is punished, either. Your report has to be the one that can get them punished.

Also, a first time offense wont always gain a punishment. Sometimes it takes repeated behavior, especially if what they're doing is minor.

I'm talking about fixing the problem of toxicity, you are probably talking about punishment being delivered ? Basically i'm trying to heal the wound, while you offer only painkillers, while it bleeds. The banned person will come back and he will be in same spot where he was before, nothing changes at all, but before that , he will be part of low level bullshit which is happening, then he will stomp and ruin silver/ gold games if he was better than that, which is yet another problem ( which would be solved by solving toxicity overall which would lead to less accounts banned because of less toxic people )

Six Inch Heals1 votes

You don't always get a notification if someone is punished, either. Your report has to be the one that can get them punished.

Which is absolutely silly and needs to change. Give people a notification if their report contributed.

RallerenP1 votes

It's a fine idea but I do have a couple tips for the future, and some concerns:

That TL;DR should have been the entire post. The shorter you present a point and an argument, the stronger they come across. The first 3 paragraphs vere completely useless. You watered down your own argument and actually gave me a jumping off point. I'm just telling you this for in the future.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like you have an extremely hard time NOT flaming people. Your response to someone calling for reports and saying 'MUTE ALL' was 'kys'. It's abit worrying that the only reason you have for not telling someone till killthemselves, is because it's an instant ban. What if that Viktor was emotionally unstable. It's not unreasonable to think, since according to you no one had said or done anything to him to trigger his tantrum. What if that 'kys' was the last straw that made him actually do it. And this isn't some crazy scenario, it has happened before and it's the exact reason WHY saying 'kys' is an instant ban.

On another note, toxic players like you (again, not trying to be rude) are the ones who would get the LEAST amount of usage from this tool. You'll use it for a couple of weeks but eventually you'll see someone make a bad mistake and you will turn off the feature so you can flame them, or maybe you turned it off beforehand and someone started flaming you, and you'll respond. Flaming others is a choice you have to make. This tool wont prevent toxicity because toxic people CHOOSE to be toxic. If we really want to remove toxicity from League then the only way is for toxic players to change. They have to understand WHY certain things are punishment worthy. They should change before the system changes.

toSafety1 votes

{quoted}

It's a fine idea but I do have a couple tips for the future, and some concerns:

That TL;DR should have been the entire post. The shorter you present a point and an argument, the stronger they come across. The first 3 paragraphs vere completely useless. You watered down your own argument and actually gave me a jumping off point. I'm just telling you this for in the future.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it seems like you have an extremely hard time NOT flaming people. Your response to someone calling for reports and saying 'MUTE ALL' was 'kys'. It's abit worrying that the only reason you have for not telling someone till killthemselves, is because it's an instant ban. What if that Viktor was emotionally unstable. It's not unreasonable to think, since according to you no one had said or done anything to him to trigger his tantrum. What if that 'kys' was the last straw that made him actually do it. And this isn't some crazy scenario, it has happened before and it's the exact reason WHY saying 'kys' is an instant ban.

On another note, toxic players like you (again, not trying to be rude) are the ones who would get the LEAST amount of usage from this tool. You'll use it for a couple of weeks but eventually you'll see someone make a bad mistake and you will turn off the feature so you can flame them, or maybe you turned it off beforehand and someone started flaming you, and you'll respond. Flaming others is a choice you have to make. This tool wont prevent toxicity because toxic people CHOOSE to be toxic. If we really want to remove toxicity from League then the only way is for toxic players to change. They have to understand WHY certain things are punishment worthy. They should change before the system changes.

You didn't care to understand or read everything i wrote, that's why i made longer version, to explain it more. So i will explain it to you personally. You should not care who benefits from it more or who less. Even if it benefits few, it BENEFITS PEOPLE. And it's as simple a feature as it can get, no big resources needed to make that. And you don't need to do anything, that's the point, i'm the one who will press a button and lock my chat from writing or reading (i won't see someone writing shit, and i won't even have option to start writing, it's going both ways. AND YOU CAN'T TURN IT BACK TILL GAME FINISHED, that's another point) . So you will instantly benefit from that too, because after you go 0/10 in my promo to diamond, i will not even have option to say something to you, i will just focus on game. How it is so hard for you to grasp the benefits of a small, optional feature ? Why do you keep trying to prevent this happen instead of helping ? What's your motivation ? This is most toxic game in the world, i am part of the problem and i'm asking for a feature which i wanted years ago, to prevent from being toxic. And you saying fuck no, keep being toxic, let me mute you, let me ban you, let me flame against your flame.

RallerenP1 votes

You didn't care to understand or read everything i wrote, that's why i made longer version, to explain it more.

I did read and understand everything you wrote, which is exactly why I could tell you that you weakened your arguments with such a long post.

that's why i made longer version, to explain it more.

But you weakened your arguements with the explanation. It prevents discussion of the main point, because less people are interested in reading so much unnecessary explanation.

You should not care who benefits from it more or who less. Even if it benefits few, it BENEFITS PEOPLE. And it's as simple a feature as it can get, no big resources needed to make that.

I see you have no grasp of what goes into making a feature in a program. The amount of resources needed to make a feature, test it, and fix potential bugs are huge. It's not just something you implement. The benefit from it is not worth because it affects almost no one. Sure there might a couple of people that benefit, but the resources spent makes it not worth in the end.

I know this because I am a developer myself. You don't 'just' implement a feature.

And you don't need to do anything, that's the point, i'm the one who will press a button and lock my chat from writing or reading (i won't see someone writing shit, and i won't even have option to start writing, it's going both ways. AND YOU CAN'T TURN IT BACK TILL GAME FINISHED, that's another point) .

And we know from experiments conducted in the past that toxic people that can't write are likely to start inting instead, which is why we don't have chat restrictions larger than 25 games. Toxic people have to change, and you can't force them with a system. It's not the systems fault you have been banned many times, it's your own fault.

And before you say: "just ban people who are inting":

Inting is EXTREMELY hard to prove, and the system isn't very good. And I can tell you that improving the system is nearly impossible.

So you will instantly benefit from that too, because after you go 0/10 in my promo to diamond, i will not even have option to say something to you, i will just focus on game.

No. Because you can't say anything, when I come to gank your lane and I die because of a mistake you will start following me around in my jungle taking the farm. (Note: Maybe you specifically wouldn't do that, but it's a scenario that has happened and will definently happen again. Toxic people are toxic)

How it is so hard for you to grasp the benefits of a small, optional feature ?

I am a spectator, I view this with no bias. I see both the benefits and the downsides to your idea, and conclude that implementing such a feature is probably not worth it. Meanwhile you are heavily biased since it's your own idea and you can't see the downsides.

Why do you keep trying to prevent this happen instead of helping ?

I am on boards to help (and have fun). Boards is meant for discussion. I am here to discuss and to discuss, so don't try to prevent discussion by saying I am not here to help. Take my arguments and come up with counters to them instead of just sayin "Why are you trying to prevent this?"

What's your motivation ?

Interesting question. I don't know. But that doesn't make any of my arguments any less valid.

This is most toxic game in the world,

I disagree. I generally don't meet toxic people, and I am not toxic myself.

I've been on boards for a long time and I have noticed a pattern. Most people I see that is decidedly not toxic, doesn't seem to think that this game is very toxic.

On the other hand most people that ARE toxic, say that this game is very toxic.

I can only conclude that toxicity breeds toxicity.

i am part of the problem and i'm asking for a feature which i wanted years ago, to prevent from being toxic.

There are steps YOU can take. Use AutoHotkey (google it) to prevent you from using the enter key when in League. Mute everyone. Smart. Have some self-control, you shouldn't need Riot to spend hundreds of hours to adress an issue that you personally have. And let's get it straight, the overwhelming majority of players don't have your problem.

And you saying fuck no, keep being toxic, let me mute you, let me ban you, let me flame against your flame.

Do you remember the beginning when you told me I hadn't read your post? Well what about you? No where did I say that you should keep being toxic. Infact I remember telling you to change on your own, or such a feature wouldn't even work.

toSafety1 votes

{quoted}

I did read and understand everything you wrote, which is exactly why I could tell you that you weakened your arguments with such a long post.

But you weakened your arguements with the explanation. It prevents discussion of the main point, because less people are interested in reading so much unnecessary explanation.

I see you have no grasp of what goes into making a feature in a program. The amount of resources needed to make a feature, test it, and fix potential bugs are huge. It's not just something you implement. The benefit from it is not worth because it affects almost no one. Sure there might a couple of people that benefit, but the resources spent makes it not worth in the end.

I know this because I am a developer myself. You don't 'just' implement a feature.

And we know from experiments conducted in the past that toxic people that can't write are likely to start inting instead, which is why we don't have chat restrictions larger than 25 games. Toxic people have to change, and you can't force them with a system. It's not the systems fault you have been banned many times, it's your own fault.

And before you say: "just ban people who are inting":

Inting is EXTREMELY hard to prove, and the system isn't very good. And I can tell you that improving the system is nearly impossible.

No. Because you can't say anything, when I come to gank your lane and I die because of a mistake you will start following me around in my jungle taking the farm. (Note: Maybe you specifically wouldn't do that, but it's a scenario that has happened and will definently happen again. Toxic people are toxic)

I am a spectator, I view this with no bias. I see both the benefits and the downsides to your idea, and conclude that implementing such a feature is probably not worth it. Meanwhile you are heavily biased since it's your own idea and you can't see the downsides.

I am on boards to help (and have fun). Boards is meant for discussion. I am here to discuss and to discuss, so don't try to prevent discussion by saying I am not here to help. Take my arguments and come up with counters to them instead of just sayin "Why are you trying to prevent this?"

Interesting question. I don't know. But that doesn't make any of my arguments any less valid.

I disagree. I generally don't meet toxic people, and I am not toxic myself.

I've been on boards for a long time and I have noticed a pattern. Most people I see that is decidedly not toxic, doesn't seem to think that this game is very toxic.

On the other hand most people that ARE toxic, say that this game is very toxic.

I can only conclude that toxicity breeds toxicity.

There are steps YOU can take. Use AutoHotkey (google it) to prevent you from using the enter key when in League. Mute everyone. Smart. Have some self-control, you shouldn't need Riot to spend hundreds of hours to adress an issue that you personally have. And let's get it straight, the overwhelming majority of players don't have your problem.

Do you remember the beginning when you told me I hadn't read your post? Well what about you? No where did I say that you should keep being toxic. Infact I remember telling you to change on your own, or such a feature wouldn't even work.

I appreciate the time you spend here, yet you are creating the example of how people are on different sides and something doesn't work because we experience same thing from different angles. First you cannot say game is not toxic, even if you don't experience toxicity. Aura of it is too big, if you spent time in game, in forums, you just can't say it's not toxic. And comparing with other games, this is most toxic online game, that is opinion of many people, of internet itself. But let's discuss specific things, some facts themselves. You say feature is not really worth because almost no one would benefit. Numbers ? I alone, if starting to use such feature would affect ~20 games weeky, which would be ~200 players weekly, ~800 players monthly, on average. These would be players affected in positive way, instead of negative, like now. Now go and read forums, boards, pick up daily threads constantly being created with people whining how they got banned over sneezing in chat. Hordes of them. Give them this feature, at least part of them will be smart enough to understand where problem is coming from and will start using the feature. It snowballs into more and more people disabling their chat and making clean games for everyone, can you do math yourself and imagine how many people will be affected in positive way ? That is far from "almost no one". Even half of my friend list would use such thing and it is people i met randomly during game, i liked how they played, but they, like me, cannot deal with this chat issue an keep getting bans till it leads to perma. Having no ability to chat will make you more toxic game-wise ? Cmon, like telling someone something , escalating shitstorm to the next level and getting instant ban is an option ? I would be ok with completely open chat, but the moment some people use it, they are banned. Such chat is not an option.And it's not like games are not infested with straight forward trolls already, who doesn't even speak in chat, they just do every little nasty shit which drags their team down as much as game itself allows it (following,stealing camps, stealing minions, flashing for buffs, baiting fights and leaving teammates to die, giving away kills, but "Not on purpose". (I'm main jungle i see people following me and trolling me in my jungle half of my games). I doubt there is more space for more such people, this tier cannot be fixed overall, tho , bunch of these cases end up happening after verbal conflict is born, so some of them would be avoided by (let's say me, not starting it, because i had NO option to start it) . And toxicity in person won't change, you don't grasp that. It's not really a choice, it's character (keep in mind there is this extreme line which, when stepped over, is not even approved by me). But so many people get themselves into this turmoil and get unfair bans just because they joined the conflict. But it's how human being is built. Some of them. Telling me to get better at behaving is same as me telling you to stop being trash after you go 0/10 and troll my game. Stupid ? Stupid. Let's not discuss that but instead provide ourselves with tools to manipulate our surroundings for better results (You can find this principle in so many places of your life). Mute is a good tool, but it works for some people, doesn't work for others. Mute yourself would be the tool for those others, it's that simple. Isn't it fair? AutoHotKey is as good as mute is. If mute doesn't work for me, AHK will not too. They simply can be turned off mid game. Something more extreme is needed, one way option. Resources? I might lack knowledge on that, as i don't have that much experience with stuff like that, but taking into account how big riot is and how small feature itself is, how big of an impact it could have, i would say it's nothing for them to make it happen. They really spend lots of their time by making completely useless features and nonsense details, yet this small thing which might affect their one of the biggest problems in a big way is way too big suddenly to make? Doesn't make sense. Come up with better excuses why this should not be implemented.

zPOOPz1 votes

Don't be allergic to paragraphs. Hitting the Enter key (on this forum...) twice cost you NOTHING.

RallerenP1 votes

I'm not sure I can actually read that. It's SO hard on the eyes.

I wont bother keeping a discussion where I have to format your posts aswell, just to be able to understand it. On top of that even if I did format it for you, it's written like you had to write it in 5 minutes. It's just not a productive discussion.

This is my tip for you:

When you want to post an idea on a forum made for discussion then please make sure discussion can be had.

Awf Meta1 votes

There are some work arounds.

Edit your config file to reduce the chat size.

Use a macro to disable your enter key.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on Riot to make any changes.

AJStarhiker1 votes

is League truly less toxic, or is it simply they make a greater effort to curb that kind of behavior? I started playing back in S1. I've also played some MMO's (mostly DCUO) and CoD. DC isn't bad, but part of that is I normally play solo missions, so I haven't seen much of the behavior in PvP or group PvE mission. I don't have to play with others if I choose not to.

CoD is probably the worst. I mute far more little kids (and it's obvious from their voices) trying to be "edgy" or idiots blasting music over their mics than I've muted typed chat in League.

Teamwork might not be great in Bronze, but it's still lightyears better than most other online games I've played.

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