Reform Period

Count Weeds·Sep 25, 2016·2 votes·1,389 views

Hey Riot,

I have a serious qualm with your current reformation system. I love that you are punishing toxic players, that's great. I also love, that after 5 seasons, you have found a way to punish summoners without a perma-ban. You have clearly worked hard on the punishment system, and I commend your efforts. I've been here since S1, and I won't lie, I've had two accounts banned since then. I was also a child then, and have grown as a person, or I'd like to think I have <3.

However, this new "Reformation Period" literally sickens me. I understand that a summoner needs to take their licks when they step out of line. A wise man once told me, you can do whatever you like in life, as long as you're willing to live with the consequences thereafter. I understand that game lockouts for X amount of time, and chat restrictions for Y are punishments, and that's great! It truly is, without consequences there will never be any respect and discipline.

However, the Reformation Period afterwords, is.... ? Would you like to know why I was reported? Because some child went off on me, because I tried to coach them. I told them to grow up, and I may have used some bad words. Oh no, some bad words, it's not like that's not in mainstream media everyday. I'm being treated like a criminal out on parole, and for what? Trying to coach a salty player, and getting fed up with being treated poorly for it, so I stood up for myself, and told someone off. I fail to see how telling someone off for treating me like doodoo, warrants what equates to a month of punishment. I've been around for awhile, I've rarely complained, I've taken my licks. Why are you treating summoners who may have just had a bad day one time, like we're horrible people?

As a funny man once said "You're free to be offended, and I'm free to offend." Punishing people, for hurting someone's feelings has gone too far Riot. Please re implement a punishment system that punishes summoners for breaking game play code, not behavior. Inappropriate behavior tends to weed itself out, because let's face it, who wants to play with a salty summoner who can't be coached. Please go back to a time, when a chat lock out was sufficient, because really, it is. How can you be salty if your lips are sealed <3.

This is just a rant from a summoner who's a little rough around the edges, but I feel like I have good heart and good intentions. All I want is for people to stop being unfairly punished for the smallest offenses known to man. There are people being killed, starving, and worse everyday, and we're over here tripping about someones feelings being hurt :/. I'm not saying we should go around hurting each others feelings, but the real way to stop toxicity is to look it in the face, and let it know you're not going to take it! You have adopted this mantra, and I love that. But i think your good intentions have gone off on a tangent that's not producing the results summoners would like to see. I would love to see a lot of reform in the system, and something that takes into account a summoners good behavior, as well as the bad. If you looked into my matches prior to that, I've had on average 2-3 teamwork/friendly/helpful, and the occasional HO. I'm full of great ideas, if you ever wanna hear em xD. I still love ya Riot, keep working hard, I know ya try. Hopefully we can do this for another 10 years. <3

Some old occasionally salty summoner.

21 Comments

Deep Terror NamiSep 25, 20164 votes

Basically, they don't want you gaming the system, simply being silent for X games then going back to negative behavior as soon as you're able to earn loot again. While I personally do not share some of their views on this, it does make sense and I don't feel it's harsh at all.

If you only received a 10 game chat restriction you can work off Hextech loot ineligibility quite quickly, but if you received a higher tier punishment or continue to display negative behavior consistently (or you simply choose to not play games to work it off) it'll take a while.

AstôlfoSep 25, 20161 votes

You are not free to offend people. Well, actually, you are. You just won't be free from the consequences you'd deserve.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

Punishing people for offending someone is like punishing someone for stepping on the cracks in the sidewalk. Its going to happen, and unless you're being completely aggressive about it, fine, we can agree to disagree. If someone is actually attacking someone personally, ok, I get it. Otherwise, cmon folks, get a backbone :/.

AstôlfoSep 25, 20162 votes

It's called being reasonable about what would normally offend someone.

If you think it's going to offend someone in the first place, don't say it. Words that are obviously potentially offensive are against the rules.

If you say something completely normal and it ended up offending someone, well, you can't really help that. Just use common sense to decide.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

I agree with you, attacking someone based on ethnicity, creed, religion etc, is wrong, and I myself ALWAYS report players for exhibiting that behavior. But the situation that arose that I brought up, I hear happening all the time from summoners, I almost feel like we need the tribunal back, or something to that effect to scan each case on a case to case basis.

AstôlfoSep 25, 20162 votes

The issue with the Tribunal is one, the backlog was ridiculously long. Two, it was human-based, meaning the judgment depends on the person. Some people are harsher or kinder than others. Three, just about anything can bias a decision due to the fact humans make said decision. Waking up cranky, having a stomach ache, tiring day at school/work, arguments with family/friends/people, etc etc can all turn a decision harsher, and they do. Good days, birthdays, promotions, good grades, etc can all bias a decision lighter, and it does. Four, you get trolls in the Tribunal every now and then, or just a person who thinks "It can't be that bad" to troll a few times just every now and then, or the people who thinks it's funny to intentionally screw with decisions (all ban/all 'safe'/randomly picking/etc).

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

Maybe we can reform the system then, only let players with say, honorable opponent ribbons do it? Just an idea. I agree completely tho, the old system was pretty screwed up. That doesn't mean we can't revisit the solution with some edits!

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

Nami, I see what you mean. It's great that they punish. But how is it fair to punish summoners when the system is completely vague and arbitrary. If Riot would simply upload EVERY faucet of the system so summoners know exactly what not to do, that would be fine. However we live in this "Shadow Punishment," meta, where who ever knows what you'll get!

And to everyone who's going to flame because I'm salty occasionally, grow up, if you're flaming on the boards, you're clearly salty at times xD.

Deep Terror NamiSep 25, 20165 votes

It's vague (intentionally), but it isn't arbitrary. Hextech loot is considered a reward, so withholding it is not really a punishment.

If Riot would simply upload EVERY facet of the system so summoners know exactly what not to do

I can agree that there are some areas where they could be more clear, but they absolutely cannot have any kind of "list" which details everything a player can and can't do. Players that want to be toxic will simply find or create a new way to cause problems that is not covered, and since the rules are so specific they will be free to do it until that is added to the list (up until the rules simply say "Do not play League"). It isn't that hard to just not be an unsportsmanlike player.

If you are uncertain whether something is considered unsportsmanlike behavior or not, feel free to ask and we will be happy to provide some guidance.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

I appreciate your feedback, I really do <3. However saying that you can't make some sort of generalized guidance that's specific enough to cover the spectrum of toxicity, I feel is wrong. It would take some work, and editing, and summoner feedback, but its entirely possible I feel. I think summoners all over would love to help get the system to a completely fair and just level.

I just feel when someone throws some toxicity in your face, and you simply use a bit of adult vocabulary to say I wont be treated like that, should not punishable, and I would love to open up discord between Riot and the Summoners to see how everyone feels. More than anything, that's what I'm trying to do here.

ModPrandineSep 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Weeds,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=87PLrO7E,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-09-25T16:08:17.028+0000)

I appreciate your feedback, I really do <3. However saying that you can't make some sort of generalized guidance that's specific enough to cover the spectrum of toxicity, I feel is wrong. It would take some work, and editing, and summoner feedback, but its entirely possible I feel. I think summoners all over would love to help get the system to a completely fair and just level.

While there's always room for improvement, it all boils down to the simple 4 words of "don't be a jerk". If it's not helpful or constructive then just don't say it in the chat or do it in the game.

I just feel when someone throws some toxicity in your face, and you simply use a bit of adult vocabulary to say I wont be treated like that, should not punishable, and I would love to open up discord between Riot and the Summoners to see how everyone feels. More than anything, that's what I'm trying to do here.

Adult language by itself is not punishable, but it is when you direct it at someone else in a negative fashion. From Understanding the Tribunal:

1) What's the point of having a language filter if I can get banned for 'adult' language? a) We aren't out to punish players who use adult language; in fact, very few players are ever banned for saying stuff like "f***, I missed that skill shot" or "damn, fing close game!" However, the language filter is not an excuse to verbally abuse someone in the game. When you verbally abuse or harass someone by calling them "fing *****" or "ngger noob", that's when you've crossed the line and will be punished by the Tribunal. I've said this before and I'll say it again, we aren't trying to clean online games of adult language; we're trying to reform or get rid of jerks who like to verbally abuse and harass other players.

On top of that you don't actually have to use adult language in order to be a jerk. Acting up via gameplay and/or just being a negative jerk in the chat will get you punishable.

If you must give advice then do so in a neutral or positive manner. For instance, saying things like "you suck, stop feeding" isn't helpful or constructive, while saying things like "try to hug your tower a bit more to avoid being caught out as much" is both helpful and constructive. Before pressing Enter, ask yourself "Is this really helpful, constructive and/or needed?" If it isn't then just don't press Enter. If it is then feel free to press Enter. Just remember though that if the receiver doesn't want to listen then there's no need to keep egging them on about it. If they won't listen then that's their problem and not yours.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

I hear what you're saying. All I meant though, is I stood up for myself, and was punished, and I feel that it's unfair, and I hear stories from summoners all the time that are 90% the same situation.

My criticism was constructive at first, I believe it was something along the lines of "you're behind in your lane, so play safe, if you feel they're going to dive, then you just have to back out of lane for a minute." To which I got the response, of something that I can't put on the boards. I would just love to have an open forum on the system sometime in the near future. Some summoners have some AMAZING ideas about how to improve the community, and instead of just punishing people, offering constructive criticism to help reform them. People have a bad day, just like you said, and have good days. You shouldn't bring your bad upon others, but let's face it, some brashness is human nature, all I want is some more flexibility in the system personally, but who knows the player base may want something else. I hear a lot of criticism on the current system, and I think we should all have a pow-wow and figure it out <3.

Ah and one more thing, the morale of my team is my issue. I played football in high school, and we were taught that everyone on the team, is an extension of yourself. If one gear in the machine is out of whack, then the whole system suffers. That being said, the refusal of a constructive idea, is my problem :P.

ModPrandineSep 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Weeds,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=87PLrO7E,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-25T16:44:11.303+0000)

I hear what you're saying. All I meant though, is I stood up for myself, and was punished, and I feel that it's unfair, and I hear stories from summoners all the time that are 90% the same situation.

You can stand up for yourself as long as it's done in a neutral or positive manner. If you're just yelling and raging at someone then you're just being a jerk rather than just standing up for yourself.

My criticism was constructive at first, I believe it was something along the lines of "you're behind in your lane, so play safe, if you feel they're going to dive, then you just have to back out of lane for a minute." To which I got the response, of something that I can't put on the boards. I would just love to have an open forum on the system sometime in the near future. Some summoners have some AMAZING ideas about how to improve the community, and instead of just punishing people, offering constructive criticism to help reform them. People have a bad day, just like you said, and have good days. You shouldn't bring your bad upon others, but let's face it, some brashness is human nature, all I want is some more flexibility in the system personally, but who knows the player base may want something else. I hear a lot of criticism on the current system, and I think we should all have a pow-wow and figure it out <3.

The system is pretty lenient as it is, only punishing those who show consistent negative behavior across multiple games. Is the system perfect? No, absolutely not. Will it ever be perfect? No, absolutely not. Is there always room for improvement for the system? Yes, absolutely.

For your advice, like I said before if the receiver of the advice refuses to listen to it then that's their problem and not yours. Just don't keep egging them on about it and focus on your own game rather than theirs.

As for having a discussion about the systems, most people here are willing to have that discussion as long as you stay respectful and present some reasonable ideas in a neutral or positive manner.

Ah and one more thing, the morale of my team is my issue. I played football in high school, and we were taught that everyone on the team, is an extension of yourself. If one gear in the machine is out of whack, then the whole system suffers. That being said, the refusal of a constructive idea, is my problem :P.

That is true that the team can often suffer if one person is having an off-day or is just clear cut trolling, but as long as you're doing your best not to give into their negativity then you can generally try to work around it. As for constructive ideas, we should all try to be more open of other peoples constructive ideas rather than just be closed minded about them just because they do not fall in line with our own beliefs.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

I agree with you on all fronts, I only want to bring some ideas in and get this system edited, because while nothing is ever perfect, I find staring a problem in the face and doing nothing about is plain cowardice and ignorance.

I also see that some players will just be turds, and that's very unfortunate for all us. We can't permanently weed these players out at the moment, but I generally do my best to deal with them. But when someone starts saying sexist/homophobic comments towards me, I can, and will tell you off in whatever manner I feel like, and quite frankly if I'm punished for that, then to hell with ya <3. I was raised to stand up for myself, but always be respectful. That's all I want to be able to do in this community, without some guy being a butt-hole to me in a game, then his 3 buddies report me, when really he was being the toxic player. One out of turn comment from me, and suddenly I'm the bad guy. Nothing immoral, just a succinct "quit being a !@#!@# toxic little piece of !@#!@#@ when people are just trying to @#!$@#! help you, you !@#@#!@ !@#!@#."

That's the main point of every post here of mine, is why punish a summoner for one comment, when they were faced with 30. That's not fair, and I'm aware life isn't fair, but this community sure as hell acts like it is. If we talk the talk, we should walk the walk.

EDIT None of those are homophobic, racist, anti-anything really. Just bad words, that shouldn't have been used and I was wrong, but that's it. Wanted it to be clear :0. EDIT

ModPrandineSep 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Count Weeds,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=87PLrO7E,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-09-25T17:40:14.298+0000)

I agree with you on all fronts, I only want to bring some ideas in and get this system edited, because while nothing is ever perfect, I find staring a problem in the face and doing nothing about is plain cowardice and ignorance.

I also see that some players will just be turds, and that's very unfortunate for all us. We can't permanently weed these players out at the moment, but I generally do my best to deal with them. But when someone starts saying sexist/homophobic comments towards me, I can, and will tell you off in whatever manner I feel like, and quite frankly if I'm punished for that, then to hell with ya <3. I was raised to stand up for myself, but always be respectful. That's all I want to be able to do in this community, without some guy being a butt-hole to me in a game, then his 3 buddies report me, when really he was being the toxic player. One out of turn comment from me, and suddenly I'm the bad guy. Nothing immoral, just a succinct "quit being a !@#!@# toxic little piece of !@#!@#@ when people are just trying to @#!$@#! help you, you !@#@#!@ !@#!@#."

That's the main point of every post here of mine, is why punish a summoner for one comment, when they were faced with 30. That's not fair, and I'm aware life isn't fair, but this community sure as hell acts like it is. If we talk the talk, we should walk the walk.

EDIT None of those are homophobic, racist, anti-anything really. Just bad words, that shouldn't have been used and I was wrong, but that's it. Wanted it to be clear :0. EDIT

Yes trolls happen, but the system is designed so that a pre-made group can't report you and instantly get you punished on the spot. From Riot Tantram:

Actually, Erdrik is correct here.

A report flags a game for review. They do not establish guilt. The game is then reviewed for harassment, feeding, etc. This is why 'troll reporting' or 'gang reporting' do not work. False or inaccurate reports are thrown out.

You cannot ever be punished for saying nothing .. unless of course it's for something gameplay related like feeding, afking or cheating. But, you can never be punished for offensive language, hate speech or verbal abuse if you said nothing,

As for punishing for "one comment", generally people who try to use that excuse are lying about it and in actuality have made a ton of rude and disrespectful comments in the chat. Just because Person A acts up doesn't mean that you can act up and have your negative behavior ignored. From Understanding the Tribunal:

4) That player in my game was far worse than me. Why am I banned??? a) I'll keep this one simple: retaliation isn't OK. Reacting to a toxic player by being toxic just incites that player to be even worse--it also ruins the game for up to 8 other players. It is far, far worse to watch two people yelling at each other all game than it is to watch 1 player ranting into blank space. Almost everyone in the game can find someone out there that behaves worse than they do--but so what? Finding someone worse doesn't justify your behavior or justify retaliation. We expect more out of our players. What players often don't realize is... those other players in your game that you thought were worse? Nearly 100% of the time, those players were banned even before you were. If someone is being toxic, just report them and move on. If you retaliate, both of you will be banned. It's really that simple.

Also, I want to specifically comment on this part right here:

But when someone starts saying sexist/homophobic comments towards me, I can, and will tell you off in whatever manner I feel like, and quite frankly if I'm punished for that, then to hell with ya <3. I was raised to stand up for myself, but always be respectful.

This combined with your Bipolar Disorder is probably why you seem to have such a hard time understanding that sometimes the best response to a trolling flamer is silence. Think about it: trolls want a negative reaction out of you just so that they can take you down with them. By not giving them the reaction they want you ensure that they not only keep digging their own graves so-to-speak there but also that you don't fall into the grave alongside them.

Count WeedsOct 2, 20161 votes

I can see things from your perspective for sure, however, my final comment is, as long as both parties are punished in the situation, I suppose that its OK. However, if I find the chat logs, I can say with confidence, my rant, was two comments long; the other summoner, the whole game. If the system weeds them out, then fine, but I still stand my ground. When a person encroaches and steps over a boundary, not saying anything is cowardice, and quite frankly, I won't remain silent. I understand the concept of trolls, but understand that telling someone off, is a natural reaction, BPD, or not.

NazahakiSep 25, 20161 votes

Riot makes so much money, they don't have to care about the community anymore.

Thing is, most people will still make new accounts, still give them money, and they know that.

They may have something for the future, they may not. It doesn't matter either way.

Your's and my perma-ban as well as everything other perma'ed account are nothing to them.

Robot's perma-ban your account now.

Robots.

Not people.

And we just have to take it, even after a few mistakes or upsets, even if it's their game's play style being the problem, and their report system banning those who rage in chat, and not in-game, like for instance, your jungler comes top because you acidentally stole one of the smaller people from the camps when leashing him, so he doesn't say anything comes top and just walks around in your lane taking your farm, he gets away with it, and they let him get away with it because there's no recording of what happened in the game so, whoopdie doo. :)

i shouldn't have to feel like a therapist coming into a league of legends game, they only target you for the bad things you said and never the good, i could've been super positive about everything in a previous game, but just because i get "pissed" like anyone else would in 1 to 3 games, i'm SUPER TOXIC CIS SCUM that deserves to never have my account ever again, EVER. LEAAAAAAAAAAVE! death penalty for your account. GTFOOOO!!!!

ModPrandineSep 25, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Riot makes so much money, they don't have to care about the community anymore.

Thing is, most people will still make new accounts, still give them money, and they know that.

They may have something for the future, they may not. It doesn't matter either way.

Your's and my perma-ban as well as everything other perma'ed account are nothing to them.

Robot's perma-ban your account now.

Robots.

Not people.

Normally it's the automated system that hands out punishments, but in extreme cases it's a manual review that results in the punishment of an account. If Riot truly didn't care about the community then they wouldn't give people multiple chances to reform before permbanning them or even hand out rewards for good behavior.

Besides, even if people make multiple accounts, if they keep up with the same kind of behavior that got their previous account(s) permabanned then they'll just keep getting punished again and again until they either shape up or ship out. Usually they'd get punished even faster than before since lower level accounts are judged more harshly than higher level accounts are for this exact reason.

And we just have to take it, even after a few mistakes or upsets, even if it's their game's play style being the problem, and their report system banning those who rage in chat, and not in-game, like for instance, your jungler comes top because you acidentally stole one of the smaller people from the camps when leashing him, so he doesn't say anything comes top and just walks around in your lane taking your farm, he gets away with it, and they let him get away with it because there's no recording of what happened in the game so, whoopdie doo. :)

Chat is easier to identify than gameplay trolling is, but gameplay trolls are indeed banned. In fact, Here are two examples of gameplay trolls being banned. Yes it's just two examples, but it proves that they do get punished.

i shouldn't have to feel like a therapist coming into a league of legends game, they only target you for the bad things you said and never the good, i could've been super positive about everything in a previous game, but just because i get "pissed" like anyone else would in 1 to 3 games, i'm SUPER TOXIC CIS SCUM that deserves to never have my account ever again, EVER. LEAAAAAAAAAAVE! death penalty for your account. GTFOOOO!!!!

1-3 games under normal circumstances won't get you punished, but having a consistently negative behavior across multiple games will get you punished. It may look like you were only punished for 1-3 games since that's all the Reform Card shows, but it was definitely more than that. Also, Riot does reward those people who display consistently neutral or positive behavior in the form of mystery skins and summoner icons and the like. Not only that but Riot gives people plenty of chances to reform first (at least 3 under normal circumstances) before just permabanning them outright. The people being permabanned are the ones who willingly ignored the warnings and continued to behave like jerks despite the warnings given to them before.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

I'm glad you posted an actual reform attempt, from game play based behavior. This why I do respect Riot, and believe they try. In the beginning S1, and S2, things were truly rough. I suffer from Bipolar Disorder, and the first couple of seasons where so hard for me, sometimes it felt unbearable to even play.

I am happy to see an actual example of someone being punished, for just being "subtly toxic." So let's try to get the ball rolling to the next plateau in this issue. One step at a time, one day at a time <3.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

You have to give Riot credit where credit is due man. It's SO hard to learn how to police a community, especially when you realize how humble their beginnings were. They have tried so damned hard to treat us fairly, but they just don't want blatantly toxic people being toxic.

I just say we never let them chat in game, only pings. Win win, if after that they're toxic via game play, weed them out.

Count WeedsSep 25, 20161 votes

When you get down voted because people don't want to have the difficult conversation.....