Boards›Player Behavior

Dear Automated Chat Restriction Bot

d7MbXXYSGE··2 votes·847 views

Have you ever been pulled over by a police officer and given a ticket? What are you rights? Are you just suppose to take the ticket and accept the "I understand" to whatever the police officer or the automated system spits out at you? Do you have the right to defend your case infront of anyone? Do we live in america? Does the game developers even have a sense of what it means to be american? What does "you are not guilty until proven guilty in the court of law" even mean? Or do you have to automatically accept the ticket, click on the "I understand" button infront of you and basically FORCED to accept being guilty? What about if this process was automated? What if the reason was that multiple people didn't like you and reported your driving and you were mailed a ticket? Maybe you're black, gay, ugly car, have a bumper sticker of Trump, the list goes on. Do they have the right for you to give you a ticket because of these reasons? What if you're just the odd one out in a game of 4 grouped flex queue'rs? This is the current state of league of legends. Automated false allegations based on computer generated algorithms.

Pretend you are the one player in a flex queue group of 4 and they all start flaming you. Can you do anything? Or are you at the mercy of the ban hammer because they all reported you? Are you able to explain to the other people what you or they did incorrectly so that they understand the mistake they are baming you for? Are you able to mute? Are you able to do anything? defend yourself? In Silver/Bronze logic of game mechanics are not present, and therefore, they have no logical conclusion except for you being at fault. Utimately, you are the victim and others are ganging up on you.

Why must the only option be 'I understand' to a chat restriction where I was instigated, cussed at, abused, and mocked. Between their slurs and toxic mispelled cuss words, who is at fault? The person who questioned the group of 4 with anger problems. Personally, the only option to me is to not play anymore. There is not any other option. I refuse to try to appeal to others when my actions were NOT toxic, were explainatory, not offensive, and not greifing. Remember, muting can AND IS consitute as a ticking off reason for someone to report you and when 4 others report, there is a high probability that you will be restricted. **Additionally, we all do and should know that the chat restriction hammer is not run by real people, just a programmed bot. **

In addition, the statement that 5% of players who got chat restriction is a lie. No sources, no data, nothing. Just an empty statement from brainless coders who will be the downfall of your company and game. Learn to program correctly, please. I did not major in programming and if there was a forum for suggestions, I would personally write it to be much more effective than whatever 2-lined code you have in place. It is a very simple piece of code to write. Please don't take my words as attacking the devs; I am offering to contribute to your game. Day after day of harassment, afks, angry people who start to feed is what Bronze/Silver league of legends is and anyone who denies that is not being truthful. So, if 5% of people get restricted, is that enough to actually change the Bronze/Silver population or is 5% a truthful fact? On either side of the 5% of the restricted argument, there is an obvious problem in coding or reporting of data.

I don't have the time or resource to spend on learning how to climb to diamond+. I have a life to think of. I just don't feel that the game is enjoyable when I'm at fault for other people's anger, and I haven't broken any rules. All I've done is tripp the chat restriction bot.

25 Comments

AeroWaffle7 votes

In addition, the statement that 5% of players who got chat restriction is a lie.

But surely you have data to back up that claim.

Oh.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

But surely you have data to back up that claim.

Oh.

It's a manipulated claim. Of course it's a lie.... Data isn't required. It'd just prove it.

AeroWaffle6 votes

Your statement is not proof.

Whether or not Riot is telling the truth about the statistic is unknown, but you don't have the information to claim that it's false either.

And since Riot is the source of the data, there isn't any possible way for them to "prove" it any further than they have already. They can't just show the entire world who has been banned and who hasn't, and even then people could claim that the data was fabricated.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

Your statement is not proof.

Whether or not Riot is telling the truth about the statistic is unknown, but you don't have the information to claim that it's false either.

And since Riot is the source of the data, there isn't any possible way for them to "prove" it any further than they have already. They can't just show the entire world who has been banned and who hasn't, and even then people could claim that the data was fabricated.

It's either 1. a manipulated statistic or 2. a lie that was only true years ago.

Both would mean it's a false statistic because it allows no change.

If manipulated; say they keep penalties to ONLY 5% of the population. That doesn't mean that only those 5% deserved a punishment. It means only 5% were punished. Which isn't what it claims to do. So it's a lie if it's this... and doesn't need to be proved.

If the 5% stat was true years ago when they first claimed it (much like how the tips haven't been updated) then it's still a false statement.

It can't be that 5% of people are toxic. If they actually tracked it. The number would HAVE TO CHANGE over time. Sometimes it'd be 4%... sometimes 6%... sometimes 18%....

These things don't require proof. Just some common sense.

Both cases lead to a fundamental misunderstanding of how to deal with toxicity in general. But that's a whole other conversation.

AeroWaffle5 votes

It's either 1. a manipulated statistic or 2. a lie that was only true years ago.

And once again, what proof are you providing that it's either of these two options rather than, "The data is still relatively accurate"?

It can't be that 5% of people are toxic. If they actually tracked it. The number would HAVE TO CHANGE over time.

Why? The player base is huge. Think of it this way;

Using the 2014 monthly player statistic; 67 million players played. 5% of that is, 3.35 million. Let's assume something extreme, like ~20% more people are getting banned than before.

That's still only 6%. The number of people who are getting punished by the system is such a minority, that large changes to how many punished still result in only a small portion of the player-base.

These things don't require proof.

They do when you're claiming that they're lying.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

And once again, what proof are you providing that it's either of these two options rather than, "The data is still relatively accurate"?

Why? The player base is huge. Think of it this way;

Using the 2014 monthly player statistic; 67 million players played. 5% of that is, 3.35 million. Let's assume something extreme, like ~20% more people are getting banned than before.

That's still only 6%. The number of people who are getting punished by the system is such a minority, that large changes to how many punished still result in only a small portion of the player-base.

They do when you're claiming that they're lying.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how statistics are used. I'm sorry but you're wrong and you can either accept that or not.

I don't care that you don't understand it. I don't need to be persuaded, I don't need to think of it a different way. You are simply incapable of seeing the truth. The 5% statistic is a manipulation at best or a lie at worst. That's all you need to know.

AeroWaffle5 votes

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how statistics are used. I'm sorry but you're wrong and you can either accept that or not.

"I'm right and you don't know what you're talking about" isn't an argument.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

"I'm right and you don't know what you're talking about" isn't an argument.

Actually, it's a very sound argument. I'm sorry that you know so little. It's sad. I'm done responding to you.

AeroWaffle5 votes

You don't explain how my statistics is wrong, all you give is, "You're wrong".

It blows my mind how you think that's some sort of acceptable reasoning.

Jo0o4 votes

Five paragraphs about rights and America, yet no chat logs.

An automated punishment system would be truly terrible if it routinely punished innocent people. It doesn't. You're responsible for your own words and actions.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

Five paragraphs about rights and America, yet no chat logs.

An automated punishment system would be truly terrible if it routinely punished innocent people. It doesn't. You're responsible for your own words and actions.

It's even worse though if it fails to address the issue for society. Which in this case. The ban system doesn't help us. It's a retaliation not prevention. Regardless of how we view the issues; we know they exist and that the status quo isn't enough to fix the problem.

Sarutobi6 votes

{quoted}

It's even worse though if it fails to address the issue for society. Which in this case. The ban system doesn't help us. It's a retaliation not prevention. Regardless of how we view the issues; we know they exist and that the status quo isn't enough to fix the problem.

howso? Chatting in this game is a privilege, if you cannot use the chat correctly why should you be able to use it?

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

howso? Chatting in this game is a privilege, if you cannot use the chat correctly why should you be able to use it?

I didn't say that at all. What I mean is that the system doesn't adequately address the root causes of the system. It's retaliatory. It punishes you AFTER you do something. RIOT has done a completely piss poor job at stopping toxicity before it starts. They use false logic and manipulated data to allow a system to endure that doesn't HELP people... it just PUNISHES them.

Did the system prevent someone from intentionally feeding? No. Did it prevent someone from being an asshole to you? No. Does it stop people from saying gg ez or kys? No. Does it stop people from flaming their teams? No. Does it offer an incentive for good play? No. Is it transparent so that people understand the system? No. Is there anything that shows how your reports helped the community? No.

Developers have a phrase "working as intended". But often that means they'll not change anything about it. Just because a system is working as intended doesn't mean it's not in dire need of updating and changing.

Chatting is kind of just something we do. I don't view it as a privilege. I view it as a tool to convey information. Deciding it's anything more than that or using it to the detriment of others is just as silly.

Kitty Cat Tosha3 votes

so how would you propose to PREVENT someone from doing all that? Mind control is not quite a thing yet.

ReadyxPlayerxOne2 votes

{quoted}

so how would you propose to PREVENT someone from doing all that? Mind control is not quite a thing yet.

There's many ways to encourage behavior and reform. Criminal Justice has many documented cases for both encouraging lawful behavior and encouraging reform. There's many things that effect recidivism. It's not mind control; it's offering a better alternative. Something RIOT simply doesn't do. When looking at recidivism rates; increased penalties didn't help at all but instituting new programs to discourage criminal behavior and encourage positive behavior. Just because YOU haven't thought of a better alternative and dismiss what I propose as "mind control" doesn't mean there isn't a better alternative that's just as normal as anything else we code.

Kitty Cat Tosha3 votes

It wasn't meant as being sarcastic, I apologize if I sounded like that.

I am not well-read on the criminal justice part. I believe they try to reform people by offering alternatives like job coaching and social training?

How would you implement something like that in a game environment?

ReadyxPlayerxOne1 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't meant as being sarcastic, I apologize if I sounded like that.

I am not well-read on the criminal justice part. I believe they try to reform people by offering alternatives like job coaching and social training?

How would you implement something like that in a game environment?

I've asked for a while that they improve the tutorials and expand them into stronger components which teach players the game more effectively. There's a huge amount of toxicity that's generated purely because many people misunderstand the game. In that, there's a different reason why different people are toxic. My main reason for getting upset in a game and crossing the line is when players fundamentally don't understand the game and that's why I bring it up. Other reasons could be addressed differently. But it's very clearly shown that "fear of punishment" only works for a portion of people and the rest requires a different approach.

Kitty Cat Tosha2 votes

How would you judge whether someone "knew the game well enough"? Where do you draw the line?

League is a complex game. What if someone has an excellent grasp on ward and vision control, but has horrible ganking sense? How about someone who is great at CSing, but not at objective control? How about someone who is great at motivating and leading their teammates, but bad at map awareness?

Are they all "not skilled enough to play ranked"? Would you create tutorials for every little aspect of the game? And what do you do with people who have the basics, but are simply having a bad day?

I had one two days ago. I was tired and should not have been playing ranked, but was kind of pressured into it by my duo partner. Needless to say - we failed, and we failed badly. I havent been stomped that hard in a long, long time. How would Rito prevent me from queuing that day? And being tired is only one issue why someone may have a bad day. Work issues, private issues, psychological issues...

Anyhow, my point is: I believe many players lack the empathy and insight to recognise when someone is actually bad, having a bad game or being simply outplayed. There have been soooo many times where I defeated my opponent in lane, only for their teammates to ask me to report that someone for "trolling" or "feeding", while it was clear to me (as his opponent), he was genuinly trying his best.

The ranked system does a semi-decent job of sorting players (not saying it is perfect), but I highly doubt a tutorial (or even 20 tutorials) can teach something that a player has not picked up on himself in hundreds of games of playing.

ReadyxPlayerxOne1 votes

{quoted}

How would you judge whether someone "knew the game well enough"? Where do you draw the line?

League is a complex game. What if someone has an excellent grasp on ward and vision control, but has horrible ganking sense? How about someone who is great at CSing, but not at objective control? How about someone who is great at motivating and leading their teammates, but bad at map awareness?

Are they all "not skilled enough to play ranked"? Would you create tutorials for every little aspect of the game? And what do you do with people who have the basics, but are simply having a bad day?

I had one two days ago. I was tired and should not have been playing ranked, but was kind of pressured into it by my duo partner. Needless to say - we failed, and we failed badly. I havent been stomped that hard in a long, long time. How would Rito prevent me from queuing that day? And being tired is only one issue why someone may have a bad day. Work issues, private issues, psychological issues...

Anyhow, my point is: I believe many players lack the empathy and insight to recognise when someone is actually bad, having a bad game or being simply outplayed. There have been soooo many times where I defeated my opponent in lane, only for their teammates to ask me to report that someone for "trolling" or "feeding", while it was clear to me (as his opponent), he was genuinly trying his best.

The ranked system does a semi-decent job of sorting players (not saying it is perfect), but I highly doubt a tutorial (or even 20 tutorials) can teach something that a player has not picked up on himself in hundreds of games of playing.

You bring up a lot of points; many of them convoluted and meant to play devil's advocate more than they're a response to my post.

First, I would create advanced tutorials that would cover a lot of the game. From the beginning people should know how to ward, how to combo/use mechanics, what objectives to focus and why, how to cs and the importance of it, why they should stay alive vs. feeding a kill if they're unsure how to play a matchup... etc. etc. etc....

Obviously, there are a few factors a "banned from ranked" would need to take into consideration. But if you are below par for a game or 3 in a row... you probably shouldn't be playing ranked and steps should be taken to shield you and others from the situation you're in. Would it be annoying at times? Yes. Would it still serve a purpose? Yes. It's a half ass idea, I know, but it doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.

I COMPLETELY disagree with you that the ranked system does even a semi-decent job of sorting players. Silver and bronze are a complete plague because there should likely be a tier below them and RIOT even admits as much. There's a HUGE difference between the worst of Bronze V and the best of Bronze V. There's an even bigger difference between Bronze 1 and Bronze V... So much so that no other rank tier has such a difference. There's a number of unintended consequences here as well. But I'm not even going to get into that.

I bring up tutorials because it's a teaching method. But you're right, it might not work well. So I'm open to ANY method which helps my teammates. Because I'm completely sick of watching them make such basic mistakes, EVEN AS I TELL THEM WHAT THEY'RE DOING WRONG AND HOW TO CORRECT IT, and I'm helpless as I watch 4 people I'm forced to play with throw over and over. The biggest issue for me is the misunderstandings on a fundamental level. Such as people not warding, not auto attacking, not using their skills, farming top lane while the team is bot, not protecting a fed adc, having absolutely no clue what to ban or team comp to play in champ select (and yeah, don't troll me here cause almost no one does it.... but they should), poking/trading stance... and the list goes on. I just think people should realize that if they go into a ranked game there is a certain expectation that you'll need to perform at a basic level.

I'd go on but I'm tired. I'm tired of playing with people who tell me to fuck off when I'm 9/1/7 on ezreal and need help fighting a rammus and renekton with thornmails. I'm tired of playing with people who throw over and over in the enemy jungle as I'm spamming my skills, praying I can keep super minions off nexus towers. I'm tired of working hard as hell every game while my team spams surrender @ 20 minutes because they didn't snowball. You get what I'm saying?

Edit: I'll also add that I'm fairly good at seeing people for what they can do. I consistently try to help players improve and notice if they're doing poorly or being a complete feeder. I don't think they should be penalized for being bad. I think if you consistently fail to do the things you should be doing to win a game... and have been told to do those things... that you shouldn't be in a ranked competition. I'm fine if you ward a bush that makes no sense. AT LEAST YOU WARDED. I'm fine if you came for dragon and got rekt. AT LEAST THEY CAME. I'm fine if you tried landing the skillshot and missed. AT LEAST YOU TRIED. But I've consistently found people who can't even do that...

Kitty Cat Tosha1 votes

That is a large reply which I cannot respond properly to at work where my boss might walk in on me, so I'll come back to this later.

if shes 5 im 53 votes

I LAUGHED SO HARD

if shes 5 im 53 votes

who else joined this just to downvote?

SeaGodUrronuos2 votes

Aye look at this, I was too lazy to type up a paragraph like this being so long but yea they don't ever get chat restricted but I do because I have 3 bad games with a team that has the brains of potatoes.

EvilDustMan2 votes

Chat logs.

d7MbXXYSGE1 votes

First, hire a psychotherapist or some other psychology major that can dissect this better than I can.

"Anyone can be angry, that is easy. But to be angry with the right person, to the right degree, at the right time, for the right reason, and in the right way, this is not easy." (Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics)

Presentation of misconduct:

  1. Show all of the chat log. Not just the perpetrator. I was harassed and cussed at multiple times and those people who where extremely toxic and cussing, using racial slurs, and others were not held accountable. I did not use a single cuss word or attack another until they verbally attacked me.
  2. Allow another option other than "I understand." Allow the chat log to be looked at by someone. Even if it takes weeks, we just need another option. Even if you hire someone in Africa and pay them cents per hour, that's better than 'I understand'. Just because I click a button when it's the only option does not mean that I understand.
  3. Highlight concerning chat data to pinpoint what part of the chat is of issue. Simply displaying all is not constructive.

A proper way of coding:

  1. Current system needs expansion, which uses multiple reports in single games to put a player on a three strikes in a period of time before a restriction.
  2. build database of words and phrases used in "toxic play" Be overreaching with database including mispelling of words to bypass censoring. If a word is mispelled so badly, there won't be any mistake in misinterpreting that the typer is going to great lengths to type it. This is only a simple database. A more complicated one would include statements and reaction interpretation to identify non-verbal or reactonary toxic players.
  3. Within each of the three striked games, begin counting NOT ONLY the perpetrator but also other people within the game. This is easily done by parsing the in-game messages and uses little cpu power...
  4. If other players counts are similiar or near to that of the perpetrator, then the perpetrator is being instigated and the other people also need a fraction lesser value of chat restriction. Therefore, NOONE WINS at the blame game or toxic game and everyone will take responsibility for their words. This is the only way to solve toxicity. *a no one wins mentality.
  5. The main issue is clarity. There is no questioning, realization, pin-pointing, or justification for the chat restrictions when other players may interact with you in a worse manner. If only 5% get restricted, then will those players also be taken care of? I don't think so. No trust in the system. Trust and faith is the fabric of our society and is for any community in the world. When there isn't any, then why should anyone care or rethink about their own selfish actions? If I wanted to game the current system, I'll group with 3 other of my friends be as toxic as I want and report the odd one out. I'll be so toxic that the odd guy out is so frusterated that he is on a new level of toxicity and then it will be easy to convince the opposing team to ALSO report him. I win. I just don't have the ego and time to do that, but I can and others will.
  6. One of the most important aspects of this code is to collect statistics over multiple players, divisions, regions, roles, time in game, and display anonymous statistics to the public. Ever heard of transparency? This website can also be automatically generated daily or weekly and populated into a page. Therefore, this ridiculous magical 5% number will truely come to light and see what reality is. That there is a spectrum of toxicity and a simply number like 5% is not constructive as a way to make players feel bad about themselves that (and I quote directly) "You are among only 5% of league players negative enough to recieve a chat restriction." Additionally, people in bronze/silver may experience afks, harassment, ragers, etc etc at a increased rate and when 80.69% ( from na.op.gg) of league's player base are in silver bronze. I HIGHLY doubt that only 5% of games have toxic players. The bar for chat restriction must be reallllllll low and not properly implimented for it to be so rampant. Just like in this thread, there are >5% toxic comments, do they recieve restrictions or any notification? They feel that on the internet they can say whatever they want and get away with it. When there is not any repercussions for their actions OR their account. People work hard to level their acount to 30, and win games. They will listen if they are affected appropriately.

This project can take about 1-2 days by an experienced coder, I could learn whatever language and program this MYSELF in about 2-3 days. This is just one option from one person and therefore, Riot has a lot of options to rectify their community before it's the bane of it's own game. Either attempt to solve this community problem or completely step away from it. If there is some dabble it will ruin the image of Riot and the steps they take. The current state of it is a easily gamable system centered around whoever doesn't like you independent of you or others actions in game.

A system is only trustworthy and faithful in it's ability to work. When it's concise and more complicated than an easily gamed system. When the issues are clear and someone does not think they can "get away" with it. Then they will change or stop playing.

One statement that I want in a different paragraph is that league does not have a very riggorous level of toxic play that is allows or not allowed. Without a clear line to be on, it's difficult for people to know when they go too far. Analogously the system is similar to that of a parent who doesn't know how to raise their children. When your rules are not firm and clear, the child will be a lying conniving person.

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