How does this go unpunished?

Roamer·Feb 5, 2018·0 votes·612 views

Nidalee/Master Yi duo, outright trolling from lobby. The rest of the team played hard and we almost won, but there was a span of 15 mins pleading with these players to stop trying to backdoor the open inhib. They would respawn, walk straight there and die. Over and over, Potentially the most agonizing game I have ever played, because the rest of the team played pretty well. I have no idea how someone can have 13% k/p, and 15 deaths, and trolling the team in all chat saying things like "I'm trying my best tho, I found a guide on mobafire that said inhibs and turrets are primary objectives so i'm doing well" After looking through their op.gg, they have 10+ deaths on almost every game they play in ranked. How does someone get away with this??

44 Comments

H1 H0w are YaFeb 5, 20183 votes

Being Bad isn't bannable

RoamerFeb 5, 20181 votes

Yes but most bad players have intentions to improve, and we tried to help these teammates by guiding them with pings and telling them to just stick to us and follow our lead, but whenever these happened they would just troll reply with obvious troll statements like "i'm just doing my best" and then running to a 1v5 and dying. If they were just bad, I wouldn't have made this post. I myself have awful games all the time, and almost every game I play there is someone in game that is playing extremely poorly, that's totally fine. I get that, it's when someone intentionally throws a game where we have a huge lead, and straight up trolls with no punishment hiding behind the fact that it's obviously a smurf they don't care about and pretending they are just bad to avoid punishment is not ok. In the post game lobby, they were trying to get me to join their discord, presumably to flame me and tell me "kys" which I passed on, obviously.

RoamerFeb 5, 20181 votes

I might also remind you that she had 4 assists, in a game with about 30 kills on our side.

Jo0oFeb 5, 20183 votes

Glancing through their match history, it's hard to gauge intent. That Nidalee has a bad habit of playing a support mage and selling off Spellthief's Edge at about 20 minutes, which to me sounds more like a fundamental game misunderstanding than trolling. 15 deaths is a lot, but in a 40-minute game it doesn't seem like running down mid, and the lack of CS is explained by being "support". The Yi more straightforwardly just had a really unproductive game.

Both of them, especially the Nid player, look more like shitty players than intentional feeders to me.

ArammusFeb 5, 20182 votes

like it was alrdy said. "just a bad game". riots chatsystem? doing a fine job! leavebuster? meh needs a bit adjusting in my opinion, but fine job. trollbuster/feedbuster? does not exist.

XidphelFeb 5, 20182 votes

I know. People are not immediately banned. That is absolute proof that it doesn't exist.

Or, it's hard for the AI to detect intent.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20181 votes

And yet this board still fanatically defends it.

ArammusFeb 5, 20181 votes

no idea why

SparklingLamaFeb 6, 20181 votes

Yea no clue why people here defend these trolls. 0/15 is NOT a bad game. EVER.

Jo0oFeb 6, 20185 votes

Independent of whether or not the OP's example was intentional feeding, this attitude is dangerous and detrimental. Folks reporting their teammates for shitty KDAs is part of why reviews of intentional feeders take so damn long.

SparklingLamaFeb 6, 20181 votes

Or not go 0/15/4 and none of this is an issue. People just need to use their brain thats provided with their body. Seems like this Nid lost her's and just went full monkey mode.

Jo0oFeb 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Or not go 0/15/4 and none of this is an issue. People just need to use their brain thats provided with their body. Seems like this Nid lost her's and just went full monkey mode.

"Full monkey mode" sounds like a prime example of somebody playing like shit, not intentionally feeding.

XidphelFeb 6, 20182 votes

You know, at least Big Piece had the courtesy to enter a discussion and maturely explain why he agrees with OP even despite my sarcastic remark.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20182 votes

I can think of a few times where I went 2/15 when I was trying my best to win. Feeding badly can happen due to tilt. it's not an automatic indicator of someone genuinely inting.

AeroWaffleFeb 6, 20182 votes

Have you thought of a better solution that would actually help yet?

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20181 votes

Riot would have to start manually reviewing these sorts of things.

AeroWaffleFeb 6, 20181 votes

And as stated several times, the number of players and the number of reports makes any effort at manual reviews have an unnoticeable effect. It would be like spitting on a burning building and expecting to get anywhere other than a dry mouth.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20181 votes

Do you think its better that these things more often than not go completely unpunished?

I don't see why they couldn't bring back the Tribunal specifically for trolling/inting cases, since the IFS already handles chat efficiently.

AeroWaffleFeb 6, 20181 votes

The Tribunal didn't come close to dealing with the cases presented, what makes you think it would be better now? There were several other problems with the system, such as the error rate.

The chance, even if extremely small, that someone is banned for just playing poorly is likely to be much higher if Riot were to only assign enough judges so as to keep up with intentional feeding reports. If people believed that other players were to be judging intentional feeding cases, more people would likely report players that just play poorly for it, in the hopes that the targeted player would get judges that also felt like playing poorly was a cardinal sin. The more reports that flowed in, the less people Riot could afford to assign to each case in order to keep up with the case load.

The worse the accuracy the more time and effort Riot would need to spend to double review each case that argued against the judgement. At no point should Riot ban someone for intentional feeding if it wasn't intentional.

And all it takes is a little too much case load compared to the number of people willing to review. It's not like any imbalance between the two would stay at the same state. Every day would see a larger and larger backlog.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20181 votes

"just a bad game"

Jo0oFeb 5, 20183 votes

Except yeah, looks like it was.

Replying to this effect in every thread about intentional feeding is incredibly unproductive.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20181 votes

Or maybe its the fact that going 0/15 being covered by "just a bad game" is the problem.

XidphelFeb 5, 20181 votes

The problem is that you believe we think that every single games like these can be defended by having a bad game. I admit, I don't know how the bot works. However, I don't assume that it's infallible and I DEFINITELY don't believe that it's non-existent simply because I'm not constantly seeing results. Same as most people who "fanatically" defends the system.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20181 votes

The only results you will see is when people are running down a lane with mobi boots or tears. Because you cannot determine intent, anything outside of those blatantly obvious cases becomes "just a bad game". People here don't seem to realize that you can very easily intentionally feed in a way that makes it look less than obvious.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20181 votes

Just because you can easily int in a way that looks like a bad game does not mean that my bad game is me also doing a similarly insidious thing.

You assume intent based on capability to do wrong. Just because it is possible does not make it the truth.

I'm sure that some of the cases are people genuinely inting, but I'm also equally sure that some of them are people genuinely having a bad game. You can't just assume about every one of them because they are not all the same person.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20181 votes

So in that case, how could people who troll/int in non obvious ways ever be punished?

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20181 votes

You can't just assume about it.
They can't. It is far too easy to throw a game even when trying to win, identifying the difference between the two cases is not feasible.

So I think it would be better to look for a different solution to the problem. Actually, two solutions.

First, when a player has an especially bad game (or feeds their ass off), they should be given a temporary ban for anywhere from 1 hour to a whole day (24 hours) just keeping them out of pvp matches. This keeps tilted players from spamming pvp games and ruining them for their teammates by playing poorly, without risking permanently punishing people for inting when they might not have inted.

Second, players should strive to not blame and harass one another. Because teammates are much more likely to throw or make mistakes if they are distracted by being flamed. This can distract teammates AND/OR drive them to choose to int just to spite the person flaming them.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

First, when a player has an especially bad game (or feeds their ass off), they should be given a temporary ban for anywhere from 1 hour to a whole day (24 hours). This keeps tilted players from spamming games and ruining them for their teammates by playing poorly, without risking permanently punishing people for inting when they might not have inted.

I've actually suggested that one before, but its not a popular opinion here. I just think at some point in Ranked (maybe 0/15 for example), it should become punishable. Not a ban, but something like the temporary rank restriction or larger LP/MMR loss.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Big Piece,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=4fOcEcEK,comment-id=000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-02-06T00:44:19.463+0000)

I've actually suggested that one before, but its not a popular opinion here. I just think at some point in Ranked (maybe 0/15 for example), it should become punishable. Not a ban, but something like the temporary rank restriction or larger LP/MMR loss.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

I'm with you on that then. I'm just not for applying the punishment for the worst case scenario when we cannot be certain if it is a worst case scenario.

Jo0oFeb 6, 20181 votes

Devil's advocate: When you assign a KDA to trigger a penalty, it'll inevitably become a bounty. I guarantee you that players will try to camp somebody hard enough to put them in time out.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20181 votes

That is troubling to think about. I do wonder how this could be prevented. I'm certain it would be rare, but it's definitely something to consider. I'll have to think about this some more.

RoamerFeb 6, 20181 votes

I'm not proud of it, but I have had terrible, horrendous games where I dies over 10 times... I'm sure we have all been there.

Jo0oFeb 5, 20183 votes

Intent isn't always discernible by stats.

0/15 is terrible, but in 40 minutes it doesn't necessarily mean that they're intentionally feeding. The player's build is realistic, if not necessarily informed (selling Spellthief's to complete Morello's is dumb, but not malicious), and the CS is explained by the role of the player.

Banning people for intentional feeding based on arbitrary KDA checkpoints is unrealistic, because such a system would be riddled by false-positives and abuse. I'm sure you don't need me to list all the reasons why such a system would fail.

Based on OP's account of the game, they MIGHT have been intentionally feeding. I simply can't tell by their statistics whether that is true, and I can easily conceive of a narrative where it is not. For you to act like you ARE certain of intent based on the information provided is dishonest and counter-productive.

Edit: The Nidalee helped get first blood and first turret, as well as two inhibs. The Jinx also performed very poorly, which may have been because of the shit Nidalee, or may have been a reason WHY the Nidalee did so shit.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20181 votes

And because you can't tell intent, the answer is then "just a bad game", is it not? The only way you would admit it was intentional was if the Nidalee bought mobi boots or tears.

Jo0oFeb 5, 20182 votes

I'm willing to admit that I can't say for sure what happened. I don't understand why you think you can.

Nid had shit combat stats, but actually secured important objectives. I'm willing to entertain the notion that she was doing the best with what she had. Why aren't you?

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20182 votes

I don't have any reason to believe that the OP is lying, especially when its backed up by the stats. He says they would respawn, walk straight to the inhib, and die. That seems pretty believable with an 0/15/4 statline.

Jo0oFeb 5, 20183 votes

Taking an inhibitor is often considered worth at least one death. Split pushing is often mistaken for intentional feeding when it doesn't pay off.

When you're catastrophically under-fed, securing an inhibitor, even at the cost of your life, is probably a better use of team resources than whatever tiny impact you'd have in a late-game team fight.

XidphelFeb 5, 20181 votes

Because numbers are the only thing apparently.

KVbqbFsC8eFeb 5, 20182 votes

I actually checked the op.gg, that Nidalee has been playing Ranked since at least Season 3, and the Yi was plat a couple of Seasons ago. I find it extremely difficult to believe that they didn't know what they were doing. Especially with the "I'm trying my best tho, I found a guide on mobafire that said inhibs and turrets are primary objectives so i'm doing well" quote.

RoamerFeb 5, 20182 votes

I'm gonna add here that she secured the two inhibs, after at least 8 deaths of repeatedly trying.

XidphelFeb 5, 20181 votes

I'd say probably nuke-spears at least looks more like an inter but Yi looks more like he's trying to play and having a bad game.

I wasn't there so all I have are your words and picture and I take the former with a grain of salt usually.

RoamerFeb 5, 20181 votes

The yi started out playing well, and then he just started fighting 3v1's and crazy things before he was strong enough to do so (Being master yi), Like I said, Fiora, Jinx and I were turtled in base, somehow winning 3v5 teamfights (or barely defending) and the nidalee and master yi were running to the top inhib over and over trying to get the open inhib. Every single time, the enemy team would just back and kill them. This happened at least 7 times in a row, with us begging for them to just help us teamfight and win. I could probably watch the replay and cut out pieces, but even the opposing team were asking WTF they are doing.

HalcyonDwellerFeb 6, 20181 votes

Some teammates are really stubborn and single minded, IMO given what you said lower down in the comments that the nidalee player got two inhibitors dying 8 times for it, I would think that this is what happened.

When you get teammates like that sometimes it helps to identify what they want and reason with them to wait to go after it smartly. For example, "Nidalee, I know you want that inhib to be taken out, but it's not safe to go to right now. How about you wait until we are split pushing on the opposite lane so that the enemy team comes to us and leaves you safe to take it." - in fewer words obviously, but do you get what I'm trying to say?