I have had my account since Beta and now it is perma banned. I spent $500 on this account. Riot.....

A sexy Zombie·Apr 21, 2019·6 votes·8,115 views

This really seems very unfair. I have played this game since it was in beta and I played D.O.T.A (the original) on warcraft 3. League took its influence from DOTA, and many original L.O.L workers had originally been developers for DOTA. I am an O.G. of this game, you feel me?!?!?!

I play on and off, I've been chat suspended in the past 2 or 3 times back in season 2 or 3 but I have nearly a perfect track record of never getting banned. I had level 3 honor for YEARS.

I started playing Shaco, he is super fun, but the community is extremely toxic towards Shaco players. I experienced a LOT of grieving that I never dealt with in the last 10 years of playing this game. I swear on my life that every other game my team would grief and intentionally make my game harder for me. Many people refuse to leash for me as the jungler. I know shaco can do jg without one but it still doesn't change the fact that these kids refuse to help me when I ask for it and then report me because I don't want to gank for them. I don't int, I just go help my other teammates instead. They flame me and the reporting algorithm decides to ban ME because I said the word Fuck and they don't get any punishment. Helping one another is a simple courtesy, and me reacting to them in this manner has never gotten me banned before, until now. That is just one example. There are many things people do to troll me that I honestly never dealt with before. Maybe the community got way more toxic and it's not just hatred for the fact I'm playing shaco. Who knows......

Can you please unban my account? I'm not saying I'm undeserving of punishment I just really don't want to lose this account. I am in the top 1% of original players and I feel this is very unfair. I will stop talking to people who aren't in friends chat since the community seems to have declined dramatically. Starcraft 2 has very friendly games idk what the difference is but I can talk to people all day long on SC and not have the same issues I'm having here.

128 Comments

PresBushDid711Apr 21, 201912 votes

Number of reports don't matter. One report triggers the IFS. "Defending" oneself with toxicity is still toxicity. You don't get notification every time your report triggers a punishment. Getting a notification is the exception not the rule.

Honestly, there's not much about the punishment system that you seem to understand correctly.

Arcade LuluApr 21, 201910 votes

They aren't going to unban you because then they'd have to unban everyone you're not special

it's impossible for that to be your 1st ban, so you've had a 14 day ban before. And on that report card it clearly said that the next ban will be a permanent ban And how do you know that the other people didn't get banned?

cough it isn't possible for you to have had honor lvl for YEARS because the current honor system has been here for only few years

BoltonatorApr 21, 20197 votes

Money spent does not equate to being free from the rules that are in place. You have to realize that trolls and toxic players have figured out how to get under people’s skin. Don’t become another statistic, ignore the trolls/toxic players, mute them ingame and report their behavior.

The moment you stoop to their level and get into a shouting match they have won. I cannot stress this point enough- don’t retaliate against instigators and you won’t find yourself on the wrong end of a report. It’s a twisted tactic for sure but you must be smarter than the trolls and don’t let them make YOU into the toxic player.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20192 votes

This is very unlogical and Riot will keep losing players that want to take the game seriously if that is how they decide to handle issues. Both parties should be banned instead of just the person reacting. I'm not saying I was a saint but I haven't changed my attitude with how I play this game and I never got banned in the past, at most I got chat restricted.

BoltonatorApr 21, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=A sexy Zombie,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3HEm52LR,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-04-21T18:20:41.907+0000)

This is very unlogical and Riot will keep losing players that want to take the game seriously if that is how they decide to handle issues. Both parties should be banned instead of just the person reacting. I'm not saying I was a saint but I haven't changed my attitude with how I play this game and I never got banned in the past, at most I got chat restricted.

How is it not logical? If a cop pulls you over because you were racing another car you can’t say “what about the other guy.” The world doesn’t care if you followed the actions of another if you were the one who got caught. The same rule applies to League with one big exception: ALL toxic parties will receive punishment if Rules were actually broken. It may take awhile, sometimes you don’t receive a notification, but punishment WILL be metted out. Finger pointing AFTER you were caught breaking a rule shows a lack of accountability, another thing very few people will approve of.

You say you were never banned in the past, which may have been true, but eachchat restriction causes you to move further and further up the punishment ladder. It was only a matter of time before your frequent restrictions turned into bans, which should have been a wake-up-call that you needed to change whatever t was you were doing.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

[deleted]

BoltonatorApr 21, 20199 votes

[{quoted}](name=A sexy Zombie,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3HEm52LR,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-21T18:35:11.904+0000)

That is not a good example. The cop(league) has both of us pulled over in this situation and is choosing only to focus on me

You.Do.Not.Know.That.

You clearly didn’t read past the comparison I made because I clearly explained to you that toxic players, regardless of the order of offense, DO get punished. It may take longer than you would like but I assure you they do get their just deserts.

Perhaps if you had changed your ways earlier you wouldn’t have put yourself in such a predicament. I’m sorry you were banned but consistent violations of the rules leads to it.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

Yes, I do know when my reports have an effect. riot lets you know when your reports have influence buddy.

Anyways. Yeah, man, I started playing in a time where the reporting system is extremely taken advantage of. It's my bad I started playing during such a state of toxicity. I don't deny that. Many pro streamers have openly talked about how the reporting system is complete trash. So I had an idea of how bad the community might be right now; I just didn't think it was as bad as they explained. Yes, I did read past your initial statement and my first sentence of this comment, that I've mentioned in this post already, refers to why it doesn't deserve an answer.

CharDeeMcDennizApr 22, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=A sexy Zombie,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=3HEm52LR,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-21T18:45:54.460+0000)

riot lets you know when your reports have influence buddy.

proof plz

KëyApr 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

proof plz

You do get a message if people are reporting you for negatively affecting your games. Riot will give you a message warning you.

A sexy ZombieApr 22, 20191 votes

A pop-up will appear in your client when your report successfully ends up getting someone reprimanded. Google it. I know because I report leavers and shit all the time and riot lets me know when the reports have effect.

CharDeeMcDennizApr 22, 20191 votes

it is common knowledge that the message does NOT show up every time a player you report is punished, in fact it's more uncommon than many people would like (myself included)

so not getting an IFS pop up is not proof of anything

nor is you saying "take my word for it"

so i ask again, proof plz

HotarµApr 21, 20197 votes

No matter how long you play or how much money you spend, you're still subject to the same rules as everyone else.

If you went up the punishment ladder (10 game chat restriction, 25 game chat restriction, 14-day gameplay ban, permanent suspension) and didn't reform along the way, Riot won't be overturning your punishment. Sorry.

You can file a support ticket if you think it was made in error, otherwise that ban is indefinite.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

I play and talk the same way I have been for the entire ten years I have played. Has something changed in your reporting system that makes infractions much easier to break? Seems to me if I'm with a duo who wants me reported, and they convince a 3rd person to report me, I'm gonna get banned no matter what. Seems like the community is taking advantage of the reporting system.

HotarµApr 21, 20193 votes

I play and talk the same way I have been for the entire ten years I have played. Has something changed in your reporting system that makes infractions much easier to break? Seems to me if I'm with a duo who wants me reported, and they convince a 3rd person to report me, I'm gonna get banned no matter what. Seems like the community is taking advantage of the reporting system.

I'm not a Rioter, just saying.

Mass-reporting does nothing to increase the likelihood of reports being administered. It only takes one report to trigger a game for automatic review. As far as we know, group-reporting does nothing and even if it did, it wouldn't apply to premades because they could indirectly control the game.

Feel free to post your chat logs and we can help you determine what specifically got you banned. You can find them by attempting to log in to the suspended account.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20192 votes

Why does it have the term specialist next to your name? That is very misleading lol

HotarµApr 21, 20192 votes

I'm sorry you misunderstood, but the Specialist tag has been around for months. Riot has always had their own unique tags to differentiate themselves from other users, this has been the case since the beginning of the Boards.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

That still didn't answer my question. Why did they give you the title.

HotarµApr 21, 20192 votes

My last response had a link to an explanation...?

Basically it just means I know a lot about rules and I have a bunch of experience with bans and such.

JuleviApr 21, 20192 votes

(...) this title is intended for community members who have gone above and beyond in representing a specific sub-board. (...) Instead, this title will be handed out as we identify excellent community members, and will appear with role identifier on that board only.

Source: Link presented by Hotaru

Edit: I was too slow, sorry!

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

You spelled his name wrong you jerk

JuleviApr 21, 20192 votes

Yeah as my keyboard does not have that certain letter and I was too lazy making the effort coping and pasting it from somewhere else. No need for insults.

rujitraApr 21, 20192 votes

You can't say you've been the same for 10 years. You even in this thread have gotten more frustrated in recent season.

It's also impossible for players to "take advantage of" the reporting system because it doesn't matter how many reports someone gets.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

You walked right around my questions and are making accusations you cannot prove.

rujitraApr 21, 20194 votes

No. Nothing has changed in the system, in reality since it was built from Tribunal. And the new system is just as accurate as the Tribunal system was that used real humans.

EedatApr 21, 20192 votes

Just as accurate? Absolutely not. Just far, far more efficient

rujitraApr 21, 20192 votes

If your goal is to replicate something, say, a soccer player trying to perfect a different kick, doesn’t it make sense to watch it a bunch of times until you have the idea of the motions down, then go practice it while comparing your video to the video you’re learning from? Eventually, there will be no difference.

That’s how the system was trained. It’s literally impossible for the system to be less accurate than the Tribunal because that’s the data it operates off of.

EedatApr 21, 20193 votes

Thats an absolutely insane statement to make. Computer learning programs are not nearly advanced enough to mimic human reasoning yet. Not even the most advanced AI are capable of accurately mimicking human interaction and I guarantee you Riot doesn't possess anything even close to what would be considered the most advanced AI.

I really dont understand this blind defense of every part of the IFS. The IFS is necessary for the volume of work that needs to get done but that doesnt mean we should just make up excuses for it's blatant shortcomings. There are huge flaws with the IFS and its very easy to dodge around it and skate the edge. It's also completely worthless at detecting soft inting.

rujitraApr 21, 20193 votes

They don’t have to “mimic human reasoning”. They just have to recognize the same patterns that humans base their reasoning on. Patterns are perfect for computers/machine learning.

Given that computers can recognize patterns in chess and adapt to them, and chess has infinitely more patterns than does League chat (when taking into account the relatively small amount of phrases used in chat frequently), I don’t see how you can say that it’s “insane”.

EedatApr 21, 20194 votes

and chess has infinitely more patterns than does League chat

uh HELL NO. Not even remotely close. Not even relatively close to the same magnitude. Human speech and expression is several orders of magnitude greater than a simple chess game.

Chess has a relatively few number of rules. White goes first. One move per turn. These pieces can move these directions. When the king is put into check and cannot escape or be protected, the match is over. Thats pretty much it with some minor exceptions like castling.

The rules of chess are extremely black and white. There are relatively little of them and absolutely zero exceptions.

There is a huge reason why we made a computer that can play chess in 1996 yet to this day we cannot make an AI capable of holding a real conversation.

Human communication is on an entirely different scale of complexity. There are only vague outlines and huge exceptions to everything. The exact same statement can mean exact opposites.

Let me give you an example. You are playing top and are getting ganked but manage to kill both of them 1v2. Your midlaner says "wow you're so good. How are you still silver?". Now let give some different circumstances. You make the worst play of you life. You fuck up an easy play in spectacular fashion. Now they say the same exact thing, "wow you're so good. How are you still silver?"

Now me and you as humans know the difference because we can infer meaning from context, something that AI is not yet capable of doing. The first situation you were getting praised. The second example they were saying you should be bronze/iron because you suck. The IFS as it currently is would NEVER pick up the difference.

The only thing the IFS is really good at is picking up the absolute most basic stuff. You call people bad, using a zero tolerance phrase, ask for reports, etc. What it's completely useless at is the gray area. It knows to ban someone for saying "kill yourself" but all I would have to do to get around this is reword it. "Hey garen, this world would be a better place if you were gone. Nobody would miss you". Both are telling you to kill yourself, only one will get picked up by the IFS.

It can detect someone running it down mid, but is dogshit useless at catching people who blatantly are letting themselves get caught, refusing to help out of spite, trolling the jungler, etc.

I don't understand your blind faith in the IFS. It obviously has massive faults and isn't anywhere close to as accurate as an actual human. Why do you think people submit things to be manually reviewed in the first place? I'm not even arguing against the IFS. It's absolutely necessary with so many players submitting so many reports. Everyone knows an actual human is FAAAAAAARRRRRR better than the IFS, it's just not practical at all to hire enough humans to handle that kind of work load.

rujitraApr 22, 20191 votes

But we aren't talking about human speech as a whole. We are talking about identifying patterns of phrases indicative of behavior which would've been punished in Tribunal. That is a couple dozen distinct "rules" at most. And the more logs that the system was taught on the better it would've gotten at correctly identifying even things it had not seen before based on log context.

EedatApr 22, 20193 votes

Its literally exactly what we're talking about

The only hard rules the IFS has are zero tolerance phrases and even those can be abused. A little while ago, there was a guy going around on burner accounts demanding that people said "neck yourself" twice in chat or they would int. People did and ended up with 14 day bans from the IFS. It took an actual human rioter to go in and manually unban these people because they were being forced into saying zero tolerance phrases.

Now why is that? Why did a human have to go in and manually correct the blatant mistakes of the IFS when the IFS is 'just as accurate as real humans'. The tribunal would have never ever banned that person. It's because the IFS is dumb in this regard and makes absolutely zero effort to infer meaning from context, which is an absolutely essential part of human communication.

This is just a single example, but what happens the next time that someone decides to find a loophole? Let me give you a few off the top of my head.

For the purposes of these examples, lets assume the word "noob" is a ZTP so I dont have to use real ones.

Would ÑÖ0B be caught? Ok, assume we fixed that example. NUUB? NxxOxxOxxB? NabcOdefOghiB? Newb? N i O hate O you B? Not One One Barn? What are the chances that people use the exact iteration "NaaOeeOnnB" enough to get picked up? How about "replace the q's in nqqb with o's"?

All of these are blatantly obvious at just a glance to a human as to what they are. To the IFS, it has absolutely zero fucking clue.

The statement that the IFS somehow understands and can accurately apply the data from the tribunal is absolutely ludicrous. You are attempting to assert that Riot's IFS is vastly superior than the most cutting edge of AI technology.

You don't need to blindly defend the IFS just because you think it's good that it exist. The IFS has massive flaws and being critical of it is not the same as saying it needs to go.

rujitraApr 22, 20191 votes

And improper bans happened with Tribunal as well.

Look, you have a piss poor understanding of how machine learning, artificial neural networks, and other similar recursive learning functions work. I can't take the hours, even days it would take to try and explain it to you, but I encourage you to look it up instead of blindly claiming you know how the software is flawed when you don't even have a basic grasp of the concepts behind it.

EedatApr 22, 20192 votes

Uh no. I'm afraid its the other way around. The only way a recursive function picks up on even the absolute basic tree structures in language is through a fuck ton of identical repetition. All I have to do to beat the currently available ones is change it from the norm. I change "noob" into "ÑÖ0B". Now as long as not enough people use that exact same iteration, it will never get flagged on it's own. This is where a human comes in and tells is "ÑÖ0B" is not acceptable either. It also tells the computer that accented o's and zeros can be treated as regular o's. KK I'll change it to "NabcOdefOghiB". Ok I tell it to eliminate sequential letters? The next person uses "New buh". Eliminate syllables that sound like noob? Congrats! You are now handing out instant 14 day bans to anyone who uses the word new in front of a word that begins with B. The next uses "you are a new bicycle". What are you going to do?

There is not a recursive function in the world currently that is going to pick up that I am trying to call someone a noob by saying "you are a new Bicycle". Sorry.

The current recursive functions only work when analyzing_** natural language.**_ If someone is consciously aware of this, it becomes laughably easy to defeat. As long as a metric fuck ton of people don't defeat the network in the same exact way, it won't catch on. The tiniest amount of creativity completely trumps them. Make one to specifically track a specific person? (Which is laughably impossible to do with millions of players) All I have to do is be inconsistent. Thats literally it.

The IFS catches these people who use normal insults. "You fucking suck" "This mid is trash" "worthless feeder" "Bronze garbage" etc are what gets caught. "You are an alloy of copper and tin"? Nope. How about some super common ones like "lol" or "why?" or just a simple "?". HELL NO.

You cant do it with current technology. AI is not capable of doing it yet and thats a fact. Things that a human can identify at a quick glance will fly right over the AI's head

Neural networks require a fuck ton of human intervention and correction for the countless times that they fuck up. You think they would pay huge teams of expensive specialists to keep working on them if they were already perfect? Seriously?

So please don't tell me what I do or do not know. Especially when your response is more or less "I know how it works and you don't" with fuck all explanation

CharDeeMcDennizApr 22, 20192 votes

have you ever played chess?

EedatApr 22, 20193 votes

Of course.

CharDeeMcDennizApr 22, 20191 votes

hmm. fooled me

EedatApr 22, 20192 votes

Well that was easy.

Hazy ShadeApr 22, 20192 votes

You're probably much more knowledgeable about this than I am, and can only speak to the information I've read about the system.

Your midlaner says "wow you're so good. How are you still silver?". Now let give some different circumstances. You make the worst play of you life. You fuck up an easy play in spectacular fashion. Now they say the same exact thing, "wow you're so good. How are you still silver?"

The system only reviews chat if there is a report made. So, if it's just a one off people are worried about it probably won't matter. Let's say you do get reported and the chat gets reviewed by the system. That statement could get flagged as potentially toxic, but the IFS looks at the entire chat. Were you toxic anywhere else in the chat? How often?

How do you think a person would be able to review it any better barring them reviewing vods? If a person is just reading through chat logs and sees "wow you're so good. How are you still silver?" they would have no idea the intent behind it either.

EedatApr 22, 20191 votes

The system only reviews chat if there is a report made. So, if it's just a one off people are worried about it probably won't matter. Let's say you do get reported and the chat gets reviewed by the system. That statement could get flagged as potentially toxic, but the IFS looks at the entire chat. Were you toxic anywhere else in the chat? How often?

This only works if no false reports are made. Once you factor in false reports, a system that assumes guilt would end up with a metric ton of false flags.

Humans are actually very good at detecting when people are being disingenuous. Of course not perfectly, but we're pretty good at it. It's a bit harder to do with just words though because humans read body language and tone very well. If I used that statement and then ones like "You're the best player I've ever seen" and "how are you this good at league of legends?" you would be able to see straight through to whats was going on. Me and you reading this know something sounds a bit off and can practically taste the sarcasm. We can just kinda feel it. Sarcasm is a well known issue with AI right now.

Some sarcasm is easier to detect to AI than others. A statement claiming to like a negative thing are easier to detect like "I really love when people treat me like shit". Other forms of sarcasm are far harder. Lets go back to one of our examples, "you're the best player I've ever seen". There is no direct comparison and no context. If the AI was capable of determining what you did was good or bad, it would be simple. However, the AI has no idea so it has nothing to compare to and no context.

Hazy ShadeApr 22, 20191 votes

This only works if no false reports are made. Once you factor in false reports, a system that assumes guilt would end up with a metric ton of false flags.

How so? I may not be understanding what you mean by assumes guilt. If you make that statement and the rest of your chat falls doesn't meet whatever threshold of toxicity, then you wouldn't receive a penalty. If you make the statement and the rest of your chat meets the threshold, then you would be penalized. Just because a phrase is flagged as possibly toxic doesn't mean it's going to automatically be considered toxic, if that makes sense.

Humans are actually very good at detecting when people are being disingenuous.

Versus AI and in person perhaps. Studies have shown people aren't any better at detecting lies than chance. There's also been a lot of studies on modern written communication and meaning being lost. This is a whole other discussion though lol.

As to your examples, yeah they do seem sarcastic. Let's be real though, LoL is competitive and fairly toxic. We know people aren't going to be throwing out exuberant compliments to one another. I know nothing about AI really, but why can't the system be trained to recognize excessive positivity and look for other negative indicators that would be indicative of someone being toxic. Obviously this only works in the context of a game like League as opposed to the wider world.

Back to the first example though, "wow you're so good. How are you still silver?" without context, you have to admit, this would be difficult on it's own to determine its meaning for a person. You or I would probably immediately assume it's meant in a negative way though. However, if it genuinely was the mid laner shocked the top laner survived a dive and got 2 kills off it, we would potentially be condemning someone.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the IFS is perfect or anything. I just see a bunch of complaints about it that typically have more to do with people being unsatisfied with Riots rules on chat/player behavior rather than actual problems with the system. Usually surrounding the issue of someone being toxic back to someone else being toxic first. Well the IFS can't see context and know the person was just 'defending' themselves. Which is ultimately irrelevant since Riot doesn't see toxicity as an excuse for toxicity.

A sexy ZombieApr 22, 20191 votes

If you want a prime example of how the IFS system is flawed then look into the problem streamers were having with wintraders. Humans, the streamers, could easily identify the people who were win-trading with extreme ease, but riot did nothing about it. If the streamers got mad and raged then they would get bans for flaming the win-traders. It went on for a long time

Iwanaga KotokoApr 22, 20191 votes

But that's exactly why they get banned. They get reported for flaming! And even if it looks like people are wintrading, where is the proof? Riot cannot ban you for something just based on assumptions from other players. They need real proof. And even if people report you, as long as didn't flame or intentional feed the report is going to get dropped because it was a false report

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

It seems vastly different to me since the days of the tribunal. Is there a much higher percentage of people reporting games nowadays? Something has changed. Otherwise, pro gamers wouldn't complain in their streams about issues with the reporting system.

rujitraApr 21, 20191 votes

The most likely thing is your behavior has changed, be it a little or a lot, to get more valid reports.

A sexy ZombieApr 21, 20191 votes

Then why are pro-streamers raging about how terrible the reporting system has become?

rujitraApr 22, 20191 votes

Usually this is because the streamers are being toxic to appeal to their viewer base and are mad the rules also apply to them.

A sexy ZombieApr 22, 20191 votes

So all the videos of high elo pro gamers dealing with win-trading is a problem with the streamer himself being toxic? They report these guys all day long and nothing was done about it. That doesn't seem accurate to what you just said

PresBushDid711Apr 21, 20195 votes

When you got your 14 day ban it said that if you kept this crap up you would be banned.... you kept it up and you got banned. How long has it been since your 14 day? Where are the chat logs?