Discipline System is flawed

KsSora··2 votes·2,277 views

The report system does nothing but create a toxic environment for players. The game itself like every sport is a competitive environment, That said banning someone for making a statement to their teammates like you need to play more passive, or please stop feeding is not toxic behavior. yet statements just like that get reported and are successful in chat restricting or banning a player. This does nothing but create a toxic player, when the person gets chat restricted or banned for something that is not toxic they become a toxic individual because emotions get involved. When someone who was calm gets chat restricted for comments like those above they get angry and then they make worse comments and then get banned which leads to cycle of toxicity. The ban/suspension report system needs to be completely overhauled you should be not be penalized for speaking when the other players can mute you. I understand a report for racism, feeding. cheating, afking, intentional loss in some other manner of speaking, however No one should be punished for venting their frustration when everyone else can easily mute them to not hear it. Your Current system does nothing but cause a cycle of toxicity no one reforms who gets banned ever.

28 Comments

RiotRiot Tantram21 votes

That said banning someone for making a statement to their teammates like you need to play more passive, or please stop feeding is not toxic behavior.

No, you're right .. it's not.

What IS, is saying things like :

[11:59] KsSora (Jinx): kid look i get u think ur not bad [12:01] KsSora (Jinx): but u are [12:02] KsSora (Jinx): so stop [12:22] KsSora (Jinx): i havnt done anythign trundfle this fucking kids actually trying to lose the game cause he thinks hes good [13:01] KsSora (Jinx): get some kp kid [13:03] KsSora (Jinx): do some dmg kid

You could have easily said, "Hey, if you can play a little safer, we can get back into this." or "We need a little bit more damage, building a few more damage items might help us."

When someone who was calm gets chat restricted for comments like those above they get angry and then they make worse comments and then get banned which leads to cycle of toxicity.

Actually, the vast majority of players who get chat restricted, never get another. Those that get another, the majority never get a second. Those that get a 2nd, rarely get a ban. Those that get a ban, rarely get another .. and if they do .. data shows they aren't going to change their way so they get perma banned. This is where you are. You fail to see how your behavior is unacceptable, which is why you are where you are.

Your Current system does nothing but cause a cycle of toxicity no one reforms who gets banned ever.

Large quantities of data show otherwise.

Kei1434 votes

Will you guys be willing to do a clairvoyance blog on the stats of toxicity between different periods of when different systems were launched ?

Electro5228 votes

summoner 11 by Tantram.

TBA Blaank1 votes

Thank you for addressing this and you are more than correct in stating that yes the clips from that game are toxic clearly.. but it was probably met with toxicity from the other player. I and i am sure many other people would love to see some actual statistics on Data associated with chat restriction and bans.. the general public has no access to this so we are forced to believe a blind truth that Riot states as fact. Al so to address the first thing stated i myself have been chat restricted for saying something along the lines of bottom lane please play safer and let the other positions carry because you are behind.

Modi1 votes

I and i am sure many other people would love to see some actual statistics on Data associated with chat restriction and bans.. the general public has no access to this so we are forced to believe a blind truth that Riot states as fact.

Well, how would you validate that data anyway? I am not advocating for distrusting Riot by any means, but if you don't trust the data interpretation from Riot, how can you trust the data itself? The data and interpretation are from the same source. It is equally as easy to fake the data as it is the interpretation.

Mindspeaker1 votes

{quoted}

Well, how would you validate that data anyway? I am not advocating for distrusting Riot by any means, but if you don't trust the data interpretation from Riot, how can you trust the data itself? The data and interpretation are from the same source. It is equally as easy to fake the data as it is the interpretation.

great post .

one question..

are you are actually expecting a person like who you are responding to and would post this kind of stuff to actually think logically?

Modi1 votes

I feel it to be my duty to point out statements that I see lack logical reasoning.

Mindspeaker1 votes

{quoted}

I feel it to be my duty to point out statements that I see lack logical reasoning.

true that is a noble purpose, although the ability to comprehended and understand even the mere concept of logic seems to be way above some posters heads so not sure if your actual messages would be fully comprehended.

Modi1 votes

I keep an optimistic outlook. Everyone has the potential to understand. Willingness, is another story...

Mindspeaker3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0snBL4EH,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-04T18:06:21.060+0000)

No, you're right .. it's not.

What IS, is saying things like : [12:01] KsSora (Jinx): but u are [12:02] KsSora (Jinx): so stop [12:22] KsSora (Jinx): i havnt done anythign trundfle this fucking kids actually trying to lose the game cause he thinks hes good [13:01] KsSora (Jinx): get some kp kid [13:03] KsSora (Jinx): do some dmg kid

You could have easily said, "Hey, if you can play a little safer, we can get back into this." or "We need a little bit more damage, building a few more damage items might help us."

Actually, the vast majority of players who get chat restricted, never get another. Those that get another, the majority never get a second. Those that get a 2nd, rarely get a ban. Those that get a ban, rarely get another .. and if they do .. data shows they aren't going to change their way so they get perma banned. This is where you are. You fail to see how your behavior is unacceptable, which is why you are where you are.

Large quantities of data show otherwise.

The Tantrum smites are truly an amazing thing .

GigglesO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=0snBL4EH,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-12-04T18:06:21.060+0000)

Actually, the vast majority of players who get chat restricted, never get another. Those that get another, the majority never get a second. Those that get a 2nd, rarely get a ban. Those that get a ban, rarely get another .. and if they do .. data shows they aren't going to change their way so they get perma banned. This is where you are. You fail to see how your behavior is unacceptable, which is why you are where you are.

What about those players that get a chat ban about once every season or every other season. How are those players dealt with data wise?

I'm just a little curious about what your data shows about those guys. Are they consistently just not very toxic /borderline toxic but every once in awhile just really flame for a week or two? Is it super inconsistent? Do you have alot of summoners that do get 1 - 2 chat bans every year but reform and have enough games spaced out to be considered healthy for your game?

Chermorg3 votes

That said banning someone for making a statement to their teammates like you need to play more passive, or please stop feeding

This does not happen. If you are making constructive suggestions to your teammates, you do not get punished. If you spend an entire game harassing someone because they're feeding or playing poorly, that's when you may get punished.

If you are concerned about a punishment you received, please feel free to post the chat logs and we can tell you if you crossed the line into harassing them instead of just providing constructive criticism.

KsSora1 votes

I have personally Been chat restricted for saying please play more passive and let mid/jungle snowball the game and then 15 minutes farther into the game saying GG we cant win we are too far behind.

Chermorg7 votes

As was pointed out by Zezockary before you deleted the post with your chat logs, you were not merely saying "please play more passive" or "please wait for late game". You were constantly harassing people for thinking they're okay, you're calling them "kid" repeatedly, and accusing them of trolling.

TBA Blaank1 votes

That was not in reference to that game i am more than certain

RallerenP3 votes

People like you need to realise something. The system isn't just something Riot made in a couple of hours with no though behind it. No, the system is the product of YEARS of experimentation and tuning.

I'll break your argument down:

The report system does nothing but create a toxic environment for players. The game itself like every sport is a competitive environment, That said banning someone for making a statement to their teammates like you need to play more passive, or please stop feeding is not toxic behavior.

I kind of agree. Depending on the context and the person you are speaking to, the sentence "please stop feeding" may or may not be considered toxic. But it doesn't mean that it's a smart sentence.

When you say that, what do you think happens to the recieving player. Will they suddenly realise "Oohhhh... I'm feeding! I'll just start playing better!" or will they think "I already am trying, fuck you"?

My guess is the second one. That one sentence contributes to a negative environment, and adding "please" doesn't change that.

For the second one: "play safe".

I agree, it's in itself not toxic, but the tone comes off mean. This is a case where adding a "please" WILL make a difference. "Please play safe" and "play safe" has very different tones.

Again, it's not necessarily toxic, but it has a high probability of being viewed as such.

yet statements just like that get reported and are successful in chat restricting or banning a player.

But, your chatlogs didn't display these. You straight up harrased the Zed and told others to report him for trolling. Will you doing this make him play better, or do you just use him as an excuse as to why you are losing the game. You were being deliberately derogative! "get some kp kid". Why add in 'kid'? It does nothing but make the Zed more negative. While yes, the system might view the things you mentioned (please stop feeding), as negative, it's going to view your chatlogs much differently and punish them much harsher, because they are much more toxic than just a "play safe".

This does nothing but create a toxic player, when the person gets chat restricted or banned for something that is not toxic they become a toxic individual because emotions get involved.

There have been VERY few cases over the last year where I have been on the Player Behaviour boards almost every day and seen someone who truly wasn't toxic get banned for it. So few that I could probably count them on one hand. Out of those, I remember atleast 2 people getting unbanned. The other probably did get unbanned aswell, unless they were lying in their original OP's.

This means, that if you've been punished you VERY likely are a toxic person. You can't then blame the system for making you toxic. You are just toxic.

When someone who was calm gets chat restricted for comments like those above they get angry and then they make worse comments and then get banned which leads to cycle of toxicity.

I would like to see the facts. Not anecdotal evidence, but concrete objective facts. Like statistics. Like, did you know that most people don't get punished more than once? Which of course means, that your entire argument is false because it builds on the assumptions that getting punished makes you toxic.

You aren't toxic because you got punished, you got punished because you are toxic.

The ban/suspension report system needs to be completely overhauled you should be not be penalized for speaking when the other players can mute you.

Based on the fact that your previous statement was completely false, I would like for you to actually explain why? The mute button isn't here so you can be toxic. The mute button is here because you are toxic.

The only reason we have the mute button is because removing toxic people in the middle of a match is dumb. You can't just kick them out, so there needs to be a temporary solution untill the system can remove the toxic players completely.

I understand a report for racism, feeding. cheating, afking, intentional loss in some other manner of speaking, however No one should be punished for venting their frustration when everyone else can easily mute them to not hear it.

Orrrrr, you could just easily not vent your frustrations on your teammate. People do it all the time. Talk out loud, write in a notepad. Venting your frustrations on your teammate just makes everyone demoralized.

Your Current system does nothing but cause a cycle of toxicity no one reforms who gets banned ever.

You're right. If you get permabanned, it's because you are unlikely to reform. If you're mad you got banned, it's not the system that has to change, it's you.

KsSora1 votes

The zed in that example was harassing me first i am not quite sure what kind of saint you are as a human being but typically when people are met with negativity and conflict they do the exact same thing back. Its a normal response not saying its right because it is not but that is part of being a normal person.

RallerenP4 votes

But you just contradicted yourself. You expect others to just mute you, but you fail to do the same?

I'm definently no saint, my posts on here are probably even a little more rude than they need to be, but I also know that your chatlogs would be viewed as toxic by most people. You deleted it, but it really was very derogative.

I'm not saying you were the worst person on earth, but you need to realise that all you did was just create a more toxic environment by responding to him.

The argument "but he did it first" didn't work in kindergarden, and it doesn't work here.

TBA Blaank1 votes

I wish Riot would implement something in there options menu to just turn off the ability to speak to people... All of us "toxic" players who understand maybe if the options there we are likely going to pres enter and say something that is offensive even if we do not mean it to be. If we had the option to simply turn our chat off in the menu it might inhibit how many people are "toxic" in the community as well

Jaghatai3 votes

Or you could learn a valuable life lesson and control yourself.

KsSora1 votes

[deleted]

Zezockary4 votes

Oh, well you made it seem like you were trying to give constructive criticism in the opening post but then you post logs where you are just harassing them all game XD. I had hope for a second there.

KsSora: ok well we can lose instead KsSora: Report zed KsSora: trolling KsSora: kid look i get u think ur not bad KsSora: but u are KsSora: so stop KsSora: i havnt done anythign trundfle this fucking kids actually trying to lose the game cause he thinks hes good KsSora: get some kp kid KsSora: do some dmg kid KsSora: clearly u are KsSora: thats a fantastic idea trundle ill just mute him KsSora: stop intentionally losing KsSora: thats all anyones doing at this point KsSora: gg KsSora: report zed

None of this is constructive at all and is just you being negative and harassing people.

KsSora: well we lost since u wont step forward KsSora: cant win with out an adc KsSora: no one wants to protect me so we lose KsSora: its that simple

Here you tried a little constructive criticism but you did it in such a way that you came off as negative and condescending. Something you could have tried was:

KsSora: can you guys please peel for me? KsSora: it is hard to do dps when they just jump on me

And then after that you can try improving your positioning to make it easier for them and wait for solid engages before attempting to do dps if you weren't already.

KsSora1 votes

its not harassment so much as frustration when literally your own teammate sits there and tried to lose the game for you over the fact that his ego wont let you be a better carry. But its exactly what is stated above its cyclical when it comes to calm to angry to frustrated to calm because i started calm got trolled by my own teammate went to angry/frustrated and then was clamming down by the end not completely but getting there.

Zezockary3 votes

Well, when you consistently take your frustration out on your teammates through chat it becomes harassment. Everyone gets someone on their team that under performs sometimes because people aren't perfect. Being negative and condescending towards others in chat definitely isn't going to make anyone perform better and the other four people on your team shouldn't have to deal with it.

KsSora1 votes

Ok but in this particular case the zed was doing fine he was something like 10-2-6 or something like that at one point he just wanted to be the one to carry and i was 16-4-16 on Jinx so he was carrying less hard... His response to not being the only carry was actually just to troll and harass in chat nonstop.

Zezockary4 votes

I can't go back and check the logs to see what you said to him because the post is deleted, but in that case did you need to say anything at all to him? If he is starting to harass you because you are doing better than him (which I can see being a thing) then you should mute him, report him, and move on. Responding to it won't make anything any better.

Honestly, it doesn't matter who is carrying, especially score wise because this game isn't even about getting kills. It is about destroying a nexus.

And as for gameplay trolling, what do you consider trolling? He could have just been making misplays and have been genuinely trying. It is entirely possible that he just got tilted and started performing worse because of the whole chat thing, in which case responding to him like this only made it worse.

KsSora1 votes

That is also why i chose that one to link as it exemplifies exactly my point there system is so fucked that it creates a cycle of toxicity that will never be remedied with the current report system.

Negativity1 votes

You harass your team th spect them to protect you? Goodluck with that attitude. If you wan help from people you ask them nicely, I don't have to listen to my team if I don't want to, I can play safe, farm an attempt to make plays with other players. But shouting and demanding stuff isn't a good way to win games. People don't like being disrespected

Think about your phrasing before you type, I Insta mute people like you, not worth my time to read non-sense when I could be trying to win my game.

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