The TOS is bogus.

Emenarth·Jul 22, 2018·2 votes·1,657 views

//Update Consider this additionally a preamble to an official letter of resignation. I don't stay where I'm obviously unwelcome.

//Update 2 Thanks for the overwhelming support! It's nice to know that everything I say is universally hated and down voted by so many. I love you too, don't worry.

[slayer-jinx-wink]

A clarification: Calling me "mad" over this situation isn't accurate, I am simply disappointed that I have been shortchanged, and now increasingly frustrated that the only response is that nobody gives a single damn. Being positive about being intentionally taken from is hard.

This is practically along the lines of theft. I purchased 40 dollars of riot points, only to receive a 14 day suspension about an hour later. If I would have known this would have happened, I would not have wasted my funds. Upon stating my case in a polite and ethical fashion, considering the situation is obviously asinine, I waited a full 48 hours, just to be told that this was impossible. From a logical, consumer perspective, I see no reason as to why this is the only answer.

It is extremely unfortunate that this occurred, and equally as unfortunate, this extremely aggravating situation has successfully persuaded me from contributing towards this mess for a long time.

Thank you. It's a shame that we have to put finances in front of the consumer. I'm sorry for ever caring.

70 Comments

ChermorgJul 22, 201814 votes

You spent your money on a game, with the understanding you would follow the rules of the game. You violated the rules of the game. Thus you were suspended.

It is the same anywhere you go. Paying does not get you an exemption from the rules.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

I am not contesting my suspension, as it is fair. I strongly feel however that practically stealing my funds is unethical.

ChermorgJul 22, 201812 votes

They did not steal anything. You willingly purchased RP.

Just as a movie theater isn't stealing your money if you do something stupid and get yourself kicked out.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

With no negativity meant, I suppose I just shouldn't go buy a ticket for that uninspired Starwars sequel next time. Maybe my energies are best spent somewhere else.

ChermorgJul 22, 20189 votes

If you can't agree to the rules of the theater, no you shouldn't.

If you willingly spend money on something that has conditions, you know the conditions and understand them, and you know you're likely to violate those conditions and lose your money... that's throwing your money away.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

Even the most incompetent of movie theaters would bother to provide minimal consolation in the form of an apology. It's happened to me before multiple times. Putting money in to something is a form of saying, as a consumer, that I have faith in the institution that is providing the service to have some sense of reason behind actions, in the previously mentioned example, if I were to "do something stupid" in a theater, an usher would under any normal circumstance be inclined to quietly ask me to be quiet, or whatever the case may be. They wouldn't immediately come forward, guns blazing, demanding I exit, for being loud for example.

I suppose you're right. I am just starting to think I threw my money away the second I made this transaction.

ChermorgJul 22, 20184 votes

I've never seen someone apologized to for being kicked out. Once management makes the decision to remove someone, they are out, and there's no Mr. Nice Guy.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

I'm sorry you've been to really bad theaters then? Sounds like a waste of time to be honest.

PsyrixJul 22, 20186 votes

... If the theater/establishment apologizes it's for something THEY did/ are unable to do. e.g. Seats are full, ran out of a service, some sort of problem with something on their end. If the root of the problem was you and resulted in you being removed from the premises the most they'll tell you is "I'm sorry sir, but you have to go, ur causing a distrubance/what ur doing goes against our policies."

It's like you committing a crime then someone else committing a crime against you. If you go to the police they will acknowledge it and help you, however that doesn't wipe clean ur offense. If that offense is discovered and reported the law will incarcerate u/deal with you appropriately.

Either way it's a 14 day ban... just wait it out :/

Imperial PandaaJul 22, 20182 votes

With the theater thing, it depends how regularly you do it. At least at the theater I used to work for, if you regularly were an issue; we stopped warning and just told you to leave.

If the rp was purchased via client. You can try to submit a ticket and talk to billing, they may help out.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

Riot support just regurgitated the TOS at me. I'm tempted to post screenshots now, just for fun.

Imperial PandaaJul 22, 20181 votes

Not doubting you, was just throwing out specific idea since the first time you may have not talked to billing.

[zombie-nunu-tears]

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

Well, thank you, I appreciate the few legitimate concerns that have come of this whole 4chan-esque thread now, lol.

I don't even know anymore. At the end of the day, I'm just disappointed in the willingness of Riot to throw me under the bus. They don't actually care, do they.

SugeMinPikkJul 22, 20185 votes

Why would a movie theater apologize for kicking you out when you fling your own shit all over the walls?

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

If you're attempting to insult me, as that hypothetical is pretty extreme, then please spare me, for there's already an infinite number of people finding it really easy to do so as is.

My situation isn't nearly that severe, jeez.

SugeMinPikkJul 22, 20183 votes

Anything worth a 14day is about as bad as that. Slurs, telling people to kill themselves, inting, etc.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

I proudly did none of the following.

Additionally, there's a fine line between "inting" and having a bad game that too many players are willing to attack people for, it's insane.

Get Ogre HereJul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I am not contesting my suspension, as it is fair. I strongly feel however that practically stealing my funds is unethical.

It's not like your money was taken permanently, it was only taken for 2 weeks, you still have the money and you just have to wait.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

To be fair I think it was taken permanently at this point, I think I'm going to quit. I'm really tired of the overwhelming majority of people that don't care about me or the situation at all and just tell me that it's my fault entirely.

Sorry if this comes across as hostile, I promise it isn't, I'm just really, really done.

Void NargacugaJul 22, 20182 votes

You willing spent the money so it was not stolen, and as the TOS states, you are not entitled to a refund. Now if someone had hacked your account instead and made charges on it if you had your card information saved that would be a different story and you could likely have the charges reversed.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

This dense business practice along side many, many other grievances is why I'm sick and tired of playing this game. Nothing in the real world works that way. (Nothing meaningful anyway.)

Void NargacugaJul 22, 20183 votes

I have a feeling if you hadn't received a 14 day ban you wouldn't be complaining, or if you hadn't spent any money either.

Honestly though, I'd be willing to help you figure out what happened to cause the 14 day ban if you have chat logs from the reform card, and maybe I can give you advice so you don't receive another punishment hopefully.

The punishment system has four tiers which go in order:

10 game chat restriction
25 game chat restriction
14 day ban
Permanent ban

If you really think the TOS is horribly flawed, take Riot to court and sue them.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

I wouldn't be upset to any capacity if I would have either been smart enough to not waste my money. I don't really have anything to say in regards to my ban, because the second I do I'm just going to get yelled at, and nothing will ever come of it, because of the same broken mentality that decides how these situations play out.

If you really think the TOS is horribly flawed, take Riot to court and sue them.

One can dream, lmao. Despite how I've been treated, I don't think that would be the right answer.

Two wrongs don't usually make a right.

Void NargacugaJul 22, 20181 votes

I've probably spent over $2k and I'm okay with that because I've enjoyed this game a lot and met many new friends. If my account got a permanent ban I'd know its my own damn fault for not correct my behavior so I'm not causing a negative experience for those around me. And I know I'm not going to get refunded because I willingly paid that money. Theft would be them making charges on my account that I never approved.

Anyways... I'm not going to yell, but I will be blunt and honest while pointing things out, and/or directing you to better solutions. Sometimes someone being blunt and honest is needed. Whether the advice is listened to is another thing entirely.

{quoted}

One can dream, lmao. Despite how I've been treated, I don't think that would be the right answer.

Two wrongs don't usually make a right.

In the case of suing companies for thing that are actually horribly flawed it would be considered a good thing to do as it would correct a wrong that is effecting millions of accounts/people.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

I certainly appreciate your respectfulness in this situation, and I honestly mean that, because apparently common decency is rare these days.

Unfortunately, I strongly believe that my best solution is to just leave. I shouldn't have to deal with all this over a dumb video game, where fundamentally, its existence is for entertainment, not hatred from the random. It's been a good run, but I think my time is coming to a close, with this debacle being the icing on the cake.

Void NargacugaJul 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I certainly appreciate your respectfulness in this situation, and I honestly mean that, because apparently common decency is rare these days.

I try my best to be as open as possible to help. Though I have seen some players believe it should be absolutely fine to call others any kind of hate speech, wish others would kill themselves, or believe that a toxic environment in any game should be considered normal. Since they are unwilling to change their minds its pretty much useless trying to inform them. So I do try to help those who seem they are willing to listen at all.

{quoted}

Unfortunately, I strongly believe that my best solution is to just leave. I shouldn't have to deal with all this over a dumb video game, where fundamentally, its existence is for entertainment, not hatred from the random. It's been a good run, but I think my time is coming to a close, with this debacle being the icing on the cake.

I'm very sorry to hear that, and I wish you luck wherever you go.

Get Ogre HereJul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

To be fair I think it was taken permanently at this point, I think I'm going to quit. I'm really tired of the overwhelming majority of people that don't care about me or the situation at all and just tell me that it's my fault entirely.

Sorry if this comes across as hostile, I promise it isn't, I'm just really, really done.

...But it wasn't permanent

BestPudgeNAJul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You spent your money on a game, with the understanding you would follow the rules of the game. You violated the rules of the game. Thus you were suspended.

It is the same anywhere you go. Paying does not get you an exemption from the rules

Riot's rules are absurdly vague and punishment are very random
TOS would never hold up in court
Generally speak when it comes things like this is the non-digital world you get your money refunded when you're "banned" from a place.

ChermorgJul 22, 20183 votes

I work in a national chain. When we kick someone out, they are not issued any refund, credit, or anything. If they were causing an issue during an attempt at getting a refund for a prior purchase, the refund is denied and they are logged and rendered ineligible for further refunds.

People tend to not get their money back, at least at every place I have worked and anyone I know.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

After a while it starts to look really bad. I guess as a consumer I just have to make smarter investment choices. I wouldn't want to trust an institution that would be so eager to rob me of my funds that quickly.

It's not worth my time.

BestPudgeNAJul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I work in a national chain. When we kick someone out, they are not issued any refund, credit, or anything. If they were causing an issue during an attempt at getting a refund for a prior purchase, the refund is denied and they are logged and rendered ineligible for further refunds.

People tend to not get their money back, at least at every place I have worked and anyone I know.

I've worked in CS in various companies/jobs for most of my life. Most companies don't operate the way you speak and those that do are usual rated extremely low with the BBB. . More over it's actually illegal in certain states and countries to NOT offer refunds.

ChermorgJul 22, 20182 votes

I invite and encourage you to provide me a link to a reputable news article proving this practice of not refunding patrons who are removed through violation of facility rules illegal.

It is perfectly legal to hold patrons to a contract they signed or otherwise agreed to upon a purchase.

BestPudgeNAJul 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I invite and encourage you to provide me a link to a reputable news article proving this practice of not refunding patrons who are removed through violation of facility rules illegal.

It is perfectly legal to hold patrons to a contract they signed or otherwise agreed to upon a purchase.

I like how you expect me to provide citations yet you didn't in your OP that i responded too. Truly classic.

Not always, most of the times yes, but it's most certainly a bad business practice. Also, Riot's TOS would never hold as a contract in most courts. The TOS is an adhesion contract and most courts(US ones at least) would deem such a contract invalid. Particular the part about Riot "owning" the skin/champ ect that you pay for.

ChermorgJul 23, 20183 votes

Riot makes it explicitly clear you are purchasing a revocable license for the content - not any physical or virtual content itself.

Further, the ToU is not a contract of adhesion, as you have the entire power in the contract. A contract of adhesion would be a contract that uses a necessity (or virtual necessity) to form an uneven contract - ex: a contract for food that is uneven because everyone must have food. Given nobody needs to play League, it is a choice, it is a game the user is choosing to play, it is not a contract of adhesion. Furthermore, this has actually held up in courts - optional services that are choices are permitted to have ToU that are more restrictive than are ToU for services that are necessities (such as monopolies, utilities, food, etc).

The concept of licensing is heavily used on the internet, in fact services such as Netflix are entirely based on the idea of a revocable license to something - you buy a revocable license to watch television/movies, and that license is revoked if you either break the terms or refuse to pay.

AnAggravatedPimpJul 22, 20185 votes

If you're planning on spending money on something, take steps to not get it taken away. What you described was akin to getting a license, speeding then getting it taken away but being mad that you wasted money and time getting the licence.

BestPudgeNAJul 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

If you're planning on spending money on something, take steps to not get it taken away. What you described was akin to getting a license, speeding then getting it taken away but being mad that you wasted money and time getting the licence.

Riot's TOS would NEVER EVER hold up in Court. A law regarding speeding would. So like nah bro you're way wrong with this analogy.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

Facts. None of this stands a chance in reality.

Jo0oJul 22, 20183 votes

If you're not contesting the 14-day ban, what would your expected outcome be in this situation? Bans should result in automatic refunds? Purchasing RP should shield you from being banned?

You'll still have the RP available after the suspension is up.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

what would your expected outcome be in this situation?

At minimum, an apology for the morally deceitful. This has nothing to do with why I was banned, or for how long. I contest neither. I am however extremely disappointed in how investing funds in to something resulted in this. When I purchase a product, as a consumer, logically I should have received something in return, and be able to use it, instead of it being destroyed a mere hour later.

I won't have the RP available if I quit, which due to the state of the game and instances as this, maybe the thought process is for the best.

ChermorgJul 22, 20187 votes

Investing funds did not result in your suspension. You admitted it yourself - your behavior led to your suspension.

They are two completely separate things. You chose to spend your money on something that had conditions, and then you violated the conditions, and now you're mad you don't get it back.

EmenarthJul 22, 20182 votes

There's a strong difference between being angry and being disappointed. I am the later, seeing how this is being handled now. It's unhealthy to get angry over the trivial.

I didn't choose to lose the ability to use what I had purchased 60 minutes after purchasing it. You don't buy a car just to wreck it.

AneirinJul 22, 20183 votes

And yet if you do, that's on you. Or if you get it impounded. Either way you lost access to your account through your own actions - spending money didn't give you immunity to consequences, nor entitle you to a refund.

EmenarthJul 22, 20183 votes

Through these same actions of mine, I think I'm going to quit. This is asinine for lack of a stronger word. I ultimately now have been told through how I've been responded to that I do not matter here, so why should I bother staying.

ChermorgJul 22, 20184 votes

I don't think anyone is telling you that you don't matter. I think people have told you that your money does not matter when evaluating your compliance with the rules.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

I see it in how every single thing I've said on this post has been downvoted. I see it in how everyone else finds it so easy to look at me and just practically wave it in my face. I see it in how this has happened multiple times before. I'm really tired of being the minority, with nobody actually being able to say, wow, I'm sorry that this happened, look, you did something wrong, and you deserve the ban, but the timing was extremely unfortunate, and it's a sucky thing to have happened.

It really isn't even about what used to be my 40 dollars anymore, it's just a matter of ethics.

This entire conversation has reinstated the fact that I simply don't matter. I feel unwelcome. I think I'm done now.

ZackTheWaffleManJul 22, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I didn't choose to lose the ability to use what I had purchased 60 minutes after purchasing it.

You are always held responsible for your behavior. You chose to get banned.

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

The time frame was out of my control.

Jo0oJul 22, 20186 votes

Why are you owed an apology?

This thread is bizarre. You constantly take responsibility for the actions that led to your suspension, yet continually bemoan Riot's policies in vague terms. I'd understand if you truly believed your suspension wasn't fair, but you seem to agree that it was... so these are the consequences. Did it not occur to you that an RP purchase would only be functional for as long as you were able to use the account?

EmenarthJul 22, 20181 votes

Thank you for taking the time to just yell at me, like so many others. It really helps.

By "vague terms", if you're referring to my main argument, I have doubts that you actually read it. And no, it did not occur to me that I literally would not be able to use what I had purchased a mere hour later by coincidence over a game where someone flamed me heavily.

This entire situation is really, really dumb.

Jo0oJul 22, 20182 votes

If my admittedly stern and blunt written word is being interpreted as "yelling" to you, it's because I'm frustrated by how hard it is to figure out what you want and why you want it. Your last few posts are purely about playing the victim and complaining about how the boards are treating you, rather than clarifying or defending your point as I and others have asked you to do.

I'm not interested in insulting you. I am, however, immensely frustrated that this thread has gone on so long and I still don't know what its purpose was. You make repeated references to how "asinine" Riot is being, or how badly you've been treated, but in each comment thread stemming from your first post where somebody continually asks what your goals are here, you revert back to stating that you'd rather just quit.

If you doubt I actually read your posts, well, I did. But reading both

By "vague terms", if you're referring to my main argument, I have doubts that you actually read it. And no, it did not occur to me that I literally would not be able to use what I had purchased a mere hour later by coincidence over a game where someone flamed me heavily.

and

This has nothing to do with why I was banned, or for how long. I contest neither.

makes it very difficult to understand them. It sounds like you DO disagree with your ban, but don't want to be put in a position to defend WHY you disagree with your ban. If I'm entirely off-base with this assumption, well, I honestly did try my best to figure this one out.