Karthus VU: Grim Reaper Criticism

Zagnut·May 21, 2014·25 votes·12,598 views

Great feedback everyone! Check the bottom of this first post for huge updates!

FROM: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=970165&d=1400687677

TO: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=970163&d=1400726929

I don't mind that Karthus lost his skull-face as a whole. I'm glad that he has been changed to a far more detailed and advanced appearance. Let me stress that Karthus looks fantastic and I'm excited for what he looks like in the end.

However, I--and I know others--have a huge problem with a specific issue: Why is "GRIM REAPER" (that's what his skin is named) Karthus basically now "generic necromancer-holding-a-scythe" Karthus?

In this current iteration, that scythe doesn’t fit him at all. Additionally, the Grim Reaper is iconic, presented as a skeleton. While other cultures may have their own renditions and portrayals, the overall consensus is certainly not "random mage guy holding a weapon that has nothing to do with his theme".

There may be counters to this argument in the vein of "well Riot's trying to be original or at least subverting the common expectation". In that case, I'd take Karthus sharply dressed in a black suit; full-faced and handsome if it meant a deviation from the "expected" skeleton-ized Grim Reaper.

As it stands, the personification of death is a being of legend, myth, folklore. The design I see there on the left-hand side of Riot's posted VU images could be much better. He lacks character; he lacks the punch that an amazing skin for a veteran League champion should have. I know you guys are capable of making changes that everyone will love. Just look at how amazing your Twitch skin line-up turned out.

I’m not one of those people who want all of Karthus' renditions to be boring and samey...all having the same skull. I prefer what you've done to give him un-life and character. But "Grim Reaper" Karthus sets an expectation--for those who wanted to buy the skin and those who already owned it--and the new design takes that rewarding feeling of "I am playing as Death" and kills it quickly.

I don't believe I'm requesting much; it’s a single (optional) skin that could easily have its splash art altered when viewed by clients of other offending regions. Give the new Karthus these great updates; show the classic skins some love and breathe new life into them. If the skull is such an issue--then why not just remove his face altogether? A faceless wraith, clad in black hood; it has that bone-chilling effect the visual update's skin lacks.

Hell, I'd even be satisfied if he had no face altogether in his Grim Reaper skin. In regards to China's government/culture view of the depiction of skulls, a compromise would be something that looked like this:

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=970200&d=1400693677

I posted over at the General Discussion forum, but wanted to increase visibility (the poll is a nice touch too). What say you?

UPDATE:

For those who feel that I am overly generalizing or pushing my idea of the Grim Reaper wrongfully, I decided to take some countermeasures to support this claim. When I state that the "overall consensus" of the Grim Reaper is a depiction of a hooded/robed skeleton or shadowed figure, I mean just that.

Basically, I've compared the Google image results of "grim reaper" from 6 different Google domains around the world. Turns out, they all show pretty much the same iconic representation of Death (warning huge image, right-click to view larger):

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=970466&d=1400720729

Also, I ensured that I created a sandbox of my OS and configured Mozilla Firefox to be proxied behind each of the 6 domains' IP ranges.

Like to see for yourself? Make sure you're on the right domain for each search and set your proxies up (just for good measure). If you want to be extra certain (like I did) set up a unique sandbox/virtual machine for each time you search on a different domain. The image I put together was after extensive testing and had already spun down my VMs. After all was said and done, I wanted to throw all the domain/proxy searches one tab at a time in a single window for the multiple screenshots.

Riot called this skin "Grim Reaper" Karthus; dark flowing robe, a skull, a scythe, the harvester of souls--Death itself. That's what was in mind when the skin was created. Before any rework, that's what you were playing as. Karthus was very outdated, but that's what the selling point of this skin was. I feel that fighting for something has no purpose if you cannot back it up with facts, and I live accordingly. Thanks everyone!

55 Comments

Ulquiorra995May 21, 20149 votes

Changing a skin this drastically kinda defeats its purpose. Many people, myself included, bought it because they enjoyed the idea of playing as the Grim Reaper, personification of Death itself.

Go on, Google search images for 'Grim Reaper'. Results won't come even close to this. Might as well rename him into 'Generic scythe-wielding undead mage Karthus' as he is now, because that thing is not even close to a Grim Reaper.

If this passes I'm refunding him for Pentakill Karthus (which looks awesome by the way, GJ Riot).

MackleDogeMay 21, 20141 votes

Great idea! Let's Google Image Search "Grim Reaper" and see what we get!

http://d4rkharlequin.deviantart.com/art/Grim-Reaper-325507603

http://www.mangareader.net/845-44088-5/grim-reaper/chapter-4.html

http://images3.alphacoders.com/191/191477.jpg

You're right, not even close Riot. Having a crap ton of skulls is overdone. It's boring. There isn't anything wrong with trying a different approach. One of my favorite versions of the Grim Reaper is the image of a bleeding and corrupted angel. Everyone is going to have different opinions on the artwork and some times they'll be drastically different. For me, just a cloak and a skull is boring.

Different cultures have different aspects and characteristics for Death and the Grim Reaper. And there will always be different styles when it comes to art and creative design. It's one thing to not like it, but I think you guys are being a bit hyperbolic with this.

ZagnutMay 21, 20149 votes

Great idea! Let's Google Image Search "Grim Reaper" and see what we get!

You're really reaching there, though. A genuine Google Image Search for "Grim Reaper" contains a plethora of the iconic reaper. You have selected images that are outliers. Additionally, and this is unfortunate, your point seems off considering that the third image you provided (the boxing ring) depicts a version of the Grim Reaper I already mentioned (in my original post) would be both expected and satisfying:

If the skull is such an issue--then why not just remove his face altogether? A faceless wraith, clad in black hood; it has that bone-chilling effect the visual update's skin lacks.

You go on to mention that:

Different cultures have different aspects and characteristics for Death and the Grim Reaper. And there will always be different styles when it comes to art and creative design.

Which is something I, too, already mentioned:

While other cultures may have their own renditions and portrayals, the overall consensus is certainly not "random mage guy holding a weapon that has nothing to do with his theme".

There may be counters to this argument in the vein of "well Riot's trying to be original or at least subverting the common expectation".

However, you seem content with the 'random rotting guy holding a scythe' and to pose that Riot is aiming for originality in that design. I don't think further discourse is possible between us unless you reconsider your approach, and that I already suggested something VASTLY different than what is expected, not just complacency:

In that case, I'd take Karthus sharply dressed in a black suit; full-faced and handsome if it meant a deviation from the "expected" skeleton-ized Grim Reaper.

And you come forward with pure subjectivity, while at the very least, I provide some objectivity. There is a general expectation when it comes to the Grim Reaper. If Riot would like to subvert that, I encourage them to do so. But they are remaking a skin they have already implemented in the game and that is the issue. If they do not want to be plain they should aim for some heavy creativity if they are going to change an existing skin's foundation.

MackleDogeMay 21, 20141 votes

The point of the Google Search is to show that just because there are a bunch of (boring) standard skull and robes, it doesn't mean that there are other interesting and different takes on the Grim Reaper that are equally valid. The third image was mainly because of the shirtless guy and I found it amusing. Regardless, you'll notice that the reaper in that image still doesn't have a skull. Is the skull necessary to you or not and if so why? I don't understand what makes any of you think that that is the integral part of the Grim Reaper. If it's a skull strapped onto a GI Joe that still good because it has the skull? I would assume not.

I'm content with the changes to the skin because it's an update that was needed and I like the design. I don't have to justify my liking it to you or anyone else. You can say your objective all you want but the fact that you made an entire post to complain speaks heavily to the exact opposite. Not surprising though, a few people want to complain and they do while those that like it ignore the post because it has no value to them.

ZagnutMay 21, 20148 votes

Regardless, you'll notice that the reaper in that image still doesn't have a skull. Is the skull necessary to you or not and if so why? I don't understand what makes any of you think that that is the integral part of the Grim Reaper.

It's honestly like you're not even reading what I've typed. I think you may like to argue to argue. I will provide one more reiteration of both instances of what I said earlier for you, so that they are in one easy-to-read location:

Additionally, and this is unfortunate, your point seems off considering that the third image you provided (the boxing ring) depicts a version of the Grim Reaper I already mentioned (in my original post) would be both expected and satisfying:

"If the skull is such an issue--then why not just remove his face altogether? A faceless wraith, clad in black hood; it has that bone-chilling effect the visual update's skin lacks."

To conclude:

You can say ~~your~~ you're objective all you want but the fact that you made an entire post to complain speaks heavily to the exact opposite. Not surprising though, a few people want to complain and they do while those that like it ignore the post because it has no value to them.

As previously mentioned, I am aware that my post contains my opinion--but backs it up with facts to support it (the general expectation of the Grim Reaper is not the state of Karthas' VU Grim Reaper). However, I can see you have become bothered by my opposition, resorting to a more personal form of aggressive response. As you are now insulting my opinion as well as those who feel likewise--I will no longer pay you any heed!

Enjoy yourself.

MackleDogeMay 21, 20141 votes

~~the general expectation~~ your expectation of the Grim Reaper

You not liking it doesn't make it bad. There are plenty of people who like the changes and are extremely excited, go look around.

AlphabeticoolMay 21, 20147 votes

~~the general expectation~~ your expectation of the Grim Reaper

But googling grim reaper shows what he/she just said, it's everywhere because that's the general way that death is shown. It's not just his/her expectation...dude do you just like to argue or something?

All I know is anything besides what they've got for the current grim reaper Karthus would be an improvement. I hope they make adjustments before going live...

LouisLeGrosMay 21, 20145 votes

I know I was disappointed when they dramatically changed lil slugger Trundle. They still have the highly misleading splash art for that one too.

Bubble Butt LuluMay 21, 20146 votes

I find it lacking, but who cares what I think. I've been disappointed with the majority of the champion reboots so far.

ZagnutMay 21, 20145 votes

Any form of opinion is worth sharing with Riot, especially if there's actually a large portion of people who do care. Remember what happened with Lux when she was first revealed? Never would have happened if it weren't for people voicing their concerns.

As for Grim Reaper Karthus, I'm sure most people are just lazy and choose "forced-apathy" over logging in, making a post, etc. We have to speak up for it!

Two Worlds TooMay 21, 20145 votes

Thumbnails would probably help others see exactly what the changes mean...

Remlap1223May 21, 20145 votes

I like the latter idea of it just being a shroud, much like the Ghost of Christmas Future from a Christmas Carol.

T1gerBl00d27May 21, 20145 votes

I agree, originally I thought it was kind of cool....but then I sat and thought about it. "What is the difference between this and Classic Karthus?" Its just a scythe and a hood. He does not fit the persona of a "Grim Reaper" at all. I think the no-face route is the best idea, because it gives a more creepy and mysterious notion to the skin rather than "Its a skull."

KitsterHyrenMagiMay 22, 20144 votes

I don't like the change to the Grim Reaper. It no longer seems like anything it was when I bought the skin. My interpretation of the Grim Reaper is that it should look like Death personified... Black flowing robes, and where a limb extends from beneath the robe, it is a skeletal limb with no flesh at all. "Castlevania Death" Google searches should feature many such variations, if you switch to Images.

I am in favor of there not being a skull at all, but instead, a dark hood concealing a darker shadow within its' folds... Very similar to the "Compromise" version idea depicted with China's (and other similar governments) in mind.

The scythe needs work, I think. It doesn't look like anything that should be feared. Again, see relevant "Castlevania Death" image search results for inspiration.

Angry MonsterMay 21, 20142 votes

So my 2 cents. The op says that no culture has a the Grim Reaper that is mage like/looking. I feel that that statement does not take into account Eastern views. Eastern cultures do not have Death feature as a western view. And they take play on out concept and some times merge into their own.

That said u can still not like the direction of this skin and feel that they are moving away from what expectations would be.

ZagnutMay 21, 20145 votes

So my 2 cents. The op says that no culture has a the Grim Reaper that is mage like/looking. I feel that that statement does not take into account Eastern views.

At no point do I say this. Additionally, I even provide examples (the Wikipedia page) of other cultures' viewpoints. To top it off, I am more than open to other interpretations of Grim Reaper Karthus, provided they fit the point of the skin...to be the Grim Reaper version of Karthus.

I agree, originally I thought it was kind of cool....but then I sat and thought about it. "What is the difference between this and Classic Karthus?" Its just a scythe and a hood. He does not fit the persona of a "Grim Reaper" at all. I think the no-face route is the best idea, because it gives a more creepy and mysterious notion to the skin rather than "Its a skull."

Your one sentence in there poignantly summarizes the issue: there is almost no difference between the two and unless someone told a non-player the skin's name, they would see it as "Karthus with a scythe".

Angry MonsterMay 21, 20142 votes

( quote system sucks) u said this.

While other cultures may have their own renditions and portrayals, the overall consensus is certainly not "random mage guy holding a weapon that has nothing to do with his theme".

end quote

I did a little paraphrasing in my post but my point is still there. Just cause you say there this is not representative does not make it true. A lot of cultures have a different view and dude with a scythe is one of them.

ZagnutMay 21, 20145 votes

Hmm.

( quote system sucks) u said this.

While other cultures may have their own renditions and portrayals, the overall consensus is certainly not "random mage guy holding a weapon that has nothing to do with his theme".

end quote

I did a little paraphrasing in my post but my point is still there. Just cause you say there this is not representative does not make it true. A lot of cultures have a different view and dude with a scythe is one of them.

o·ver·all (ō′vər-ôl′) adjective - including everything; comprehensive
con·sen·sus (kənˈsɛn səs) noun - collective judgment or belief; solidarity of opinion

I'll repeat:

While other cultures may have their own renditions and portrayals, the overall consensus is certainly not "random mage guy holding a weapon that has nothing to do with his theme".

Thank you for your time!

Angry MonsterMay 21, 20142 votes

try again kid. u are still saying it wrong. There is not a general consensus no matter how u twist it.

Please try to follow along

MackleDogeMay 21, 20141 votes

Don't bother, this thread is a circle jerk. They're just going to downvote you into oblivion no matter how wrong they are.

KilleneaMay 21, 20142 votes

100% AGREE. I posted a thread like this yesterday. When I heard about Karthus VU I got very exited.So far I've been very happy with resent visual updates. I like the new model, but the Grim Reaper skin having fresh is something that needs to be changed. Grim Reaper is my favorite entity, and that was one of the reasons I fell in love with this skin right away. It was one of the first skins I ever bought, and still is my favorite skin in game. But the only thing that says "Grim Reaper" in this new look is his scythe, without it he's just a zombie in a hoodie. This is GRIM REAPER KARTHUS, Riot needs to make him look like one. We must be loud so Riot can't ignore us. If GR skin looked like this from the beginning, I would have never bought it, I feel cheated. And honestly I don't care who gets offended. I want to have a skin I paid for, or they should just remove it completely. I have never been this angry with Riot before. This is censorship, and there is only one thing we say to censorship. NOT TODAY.

MackleDogeMay 21, 20141 votes

Wait....what? I don't agree with all this hate for the skin but you guys are more than welcome to your opinions, but what does this have to do with censorship?

KilleneaMay 21, 20143 votes

China forbids depiction of skeletons or skulls in video games, so Riot decided to "make everyone happy" by ruining my favorite skin.

MackleDogeMay 22, 20141 votes

Ummm, source? Not familiar with that Chinese law, especially since there are numerous characters that have skulls or bones in their artwork in League and that isn't even including other games in the industry. And yet again, you disliking it doesn't mean it's "ruined". You don't like it, that's fine, but that doesn't mean every other person on the planet dislikes it as well. Even if that did play a role in the design of the skin, which I sort of doubt without seeing some proof of that, it's a smart practice to design things in a manner that aren't offensive to a good portion of the community. That would be just as bad as making a racist skin for Lucian or making stereotypical skins against ethnic groups as joke skins.

KilleneaMay 22, 20143 votes

About the source. Google Chinese skull censorship for more info. Then Google "Karthus Chinese splash art." You'll notice that his face is in darkness. Also check out recent Red Post Collection, here a short.

As for the removal of bones showing due to laws in other countries, ohmikegoodness commented:

"Yes, we have to take special considerations when doing things like that. We try to make sure everybody is happy! We wanted to make sure everything was okay from the onset so we wouldn't have to change anything later. Also, <3"

And finally. This skin is called Grim Reaper Karthus. Grim Reaper is a mythological creature, I don't know any Chines person who is offended by a skull. And if I ever meet anyone who has a problem with a skull, no matter where they are from, I will just consider them stupid. Again this is Grim reaper skin, not a zombie skin, not a Dementor skin, not a White Walker skin. Google Grim reaper and see what you get.

MackleDogeMay 22, 20142 votes

That's interesting actually, I wasn't aware of that part of this situation, thanks for bringing this up. I'm not really sure how I feel about it. Personally, I like the way the skin looks but I agree that the scythe doesn't seem unique or interesting in any real way. I can see the issue that you guys are having with it, personally I think you guys are taking it a bit more seriously than you should but then again I'm not that into Karthus so it makes sense I wouldn't feel as passionately as you guys do. I have to admit that I don't really see the harm in designing a skin to respect other cultures or other regions laws, but I also agree that most people in China really aren't bother by a skeleton or bones to begin with.

I don't think it really requires the bones or skull to be a good Grim Reaper skin and I think that's a fundamental thing that you and I disagree on. But that's alright. Thanks for bringing up this point though, I do appreciate that.

KilleneaMay 22, 20142 votes

Thanks for understanding. Like I said I love(ed) this skin, if was like the second skin I bought because it looked amazing. And I love the concept of the Grim Reaper. When you're in game playing as DEATH, it feels awesome. What they did here is same as removing the skin completely.

MackleDogeMay 22, 20142 votes

Yea, I can definitely see where this particular detail leaves a bad taste in the mouth of those that really really liked the old skin and have a great love for the traditional skeletal version of the Grim Reaper. Maybe if the desire is voiced enough to Riot they'll make an updated version of the Grim Reaper skin as a Classic Karthus Skin?

KilleneaMay 22, 20142 votes

I can't reply to your last comment for some reason. Anyway yea, I think many including me will be happy if Riot changes this skin only. I'm ok with how other Karthus skins look like, and don't really care that much. No way this is the Grim Reaper. They should change the name to "Karthus Grim Reaper Cosplay Fail".

MackleDogeMay 22, 20142 votes

The Community Beta actually has a nested reply limit, so after a certain number of replies you can no longer directly reply to a certain level of indentation. In that case we generally just reply to a previous comment that they made and briefly indicate which comment you are replying to, just as you did. Sorry about that, I'm hoping they look into fixing it soon.

Lol, make it "Fail Karthus Cosplay Skin" would be pretty funny. Or maybe do it like the Blitzcrank skin and have it be called "Definitely Not Karthus".

ErberorMay 23, 20141 votes

And if I ever meet anyone who has a problem with a skull, no matter where they are from, I will just consider them stupid.

Um, that's quite a blanket statement that makes a massive generalization about the 7 billion people on the planet, of which the vast, vast, VAST majority you have not met.

ZagnutMay 22, 20142 votes

I'm going to be posting an update where I compare the image results of "grim reaper" from 6 different Google domains around the world. Any people opposing my use of the phrase "overall consensus" will no longer be able to do so.

Give me a minute while I throw this together; thanks all!

MackleDogeMay 22, 20141 votes

Make sure you actually get different regions. Using England, France, Spain, and all the countries right there isn't a valid demographic. Since I'm assuming that other guy was specifically mentioning Eastern as a more Asiatic influence not Eastern European?

Two Worlds TooMay 22, 20142 votes

Basically, I've compared the Google image results of "grim reaper" from 6 different Google domains around the world. Turns out, they all show pretty much the same iconic representation of Death (warning huge image, right-click to view larger):

Status: Told

MackleDogeMay 22, 20141 votes

I'm not the one that was arguing overall consensus first off, so learn to read. Secondly, the jokes on you, because you all can bitch and moan all you want but that skin is like that now and your whining won't change that. Besides, if you consistently search for a Western European terminology and mythology you're going to find it regardless of where you search from. The "Grim Reaper" isn't part of Asiatic culture. Searching using those terms won't accurately represent the culture view from those other regions when that isn't what their mythology is or what the appropriate terminology for their believes are. It's almost like that is exactly how a universal search engine works....

Two Worlds TooMay 22, 20141 votes

I'm not the one that was arguing overall consensus first off, so learn to read. Secondly, the jokes on you, because you all can bitch and moan all you want but that skin is like that now and your whining won't change that. Besides, if you consistently search for a Western European terminology and mythology you're going to find it regardless of where you search from. The "Grim Reaper" isn't part of Asiatic culture. Searching using those terms won't accurately represent the culture view from those other regions when that isn't what their mythology is or what the appropriate terminology for their believes are. It's almost like that is exactly how a universal search engine works....

but you totally ignored what OP did in response to your heckling of the 'world's view of the Grim Reaper'...and if as you say there is no 'grim reaper' in asian culture, then you're doubly wrong: because it's GRIM REAPER Karthus and the GENERAL CONSENSUS of what the GRIM REAPER looks like (since we cannot count asian culture now because, as you claim that they do not really have their own version of the GRIM REAPER) is exactly as shown above. and since the only version of the GRIM REAPER is the one we are seeing above, then that's what the problem is---it's not the GRIM REAPER anymore...Riot cant call him GRIM REAPER Karthus if he doesn't represent the GRIM REAPER anymore...!

Status: Double Told

MackleDogeMay 22, 20141 votes

I didn't ignore anything, I was making a suggestion for his research into it based off of what an entirely different user said. And I didn't say there isn't a Grim Reaper/Death figure in Asiatic culture, I said that it differs in mythology and terminology from the standard Western European Grim Reaper, which is the entire point of adjusting and designing skins to match the entire score of demographics that Riot reaches as opposed to just one. Please learn to read before just spouting out dogmatic rubbish and grow up kid.

ModUlanopoMay 22, 20142 votes

It was probably intended as a generic skin that could be used in China, where there are restrictions on showing bone.

ZagnutMay 27, 20142 votes

Bummer.

ZagnutMay 22, 20141 votes

Hey everyone,

Updates have been posted on the latter half of my original post. Thanks to everyone for contributing to the topic. It's nice to see people reconsider their approach so we find some common ground to discuss.

MackleDogeMay 22, 20141 votes

In case any of you guys are still checking this (and this is unrelated to this skin specifically):

What do you guys think about the general color scheme that they have taken with Karthus's abilities?

What about the idea of Karthus singing or having special audio effects during his ultimate casting?

Personally, I think the color palette is a bit suiting to who Karthus is but it also seems a bit bland and uninteresting. I also think that it might be interesting to have different audio effects for Karthus's ultimate depending on what skin is being used? What do you guys think?

RetsnomMay 22, 20141 votes

Where the HECK is his Necronomicon (not to be confused with item 3165 )?! He should have the book of the dead in his new VU!

Ed Getley: We are the things that were and shall be again! Ahahahaha! Spirits of the book! We want what is yours! LIFE! Dead by dawn! Dead by dawn!

Possessed Henrietta: Dead by dawn! Dead by dawn! - Evil Dead II (1987)

MackleDogeMay 22, 20141 votes

He still holds the book and it is part of the recall animation for the skin. It isn't shown in the image used in this post nor is it shown in the official Riot post to the best of my knowledge. You can go look at the full details and videos of the skin on surrenderat20 though.

RetsnomMay 22, 20141 votes

What book? Sure, he has a book when he recalls, but that's it? What the heck?

Now THERE'S a book of the dead. He should still have it with his updated skin. :/

MackleDogeMay 22, 20142 votes

I didn't say it was good, I was just letting you know that it is at least there at some point. I think it needs to have a larger place in the model outside of the recall as well.

RetsnomMay 23, 20141 votes

Yeah, it really does. Besides the bone-scythe, it's what helps make that skin a signature look for Karthus.