Inside Midseason Magic with the designers

Riot·Apr 19, 2016·7 votes·20,981 views

Welcome to the latest installment of the League Podcast, a series in which we take you behind-the-scenes with the people who help make League possible. Expect new guests and new stories every couple of weeks or so, and make sure to hit us with those sweet comments and ratings so we can keep striving toward a Challenger tier podcast.

This week, Chris “Pwyff” Tom and Patrick “Scarizard” Scarborough chat with designers James “Statikk” Bach and Jo “Fearless” Graylock to get the scoop on Midseason Magic.

RSS Feed

You can also find the podcast on iTunes or Stitcher, or check out past episodes here!

124 Comments

LadyRenlyApr 19, 201634 votes

i hate the new athenes. its not a support item. its the best mana regen item which supports love which is why it was bought so you can actually keep supporting and keep up with the likes of yasuo who can lane indefinitely.

and the new catalyst is horrible, principle wise. i dont care how good it is, you should NEVER be incentivized for taking damage, the whole point of the game is to AVOID it (unless you are rammus or something) I feel like a filthy masochist, begging for a beating so I can recover some mana

RawManNoodlesApr 19, 20166 votes

It works well on people like ryze and in your face mages?

BernieDApr 19, 20164 votes

real problem with that is the other side, which is that now any ap tank or tank in general can spam use it's passive(mao comes to mind) and just heal off you all day.

Call Me TwistedApr 19, 20165 votes

I agree completely It feels like punishment for Mana users

Farqad4Apr 20, 20163 votes

mages need some weakness so its perfectly fair to get more mana for diving in. Risk reward. Mages have a lot of good going already. It also forces you to sometimes play aggressive. Some mages just sit back and damage only on their own terms and instantly back away with endless escape. I will admit for velkoz it kinda sucks though to be fair. The last thing we need is more mana on strong mages without some sort of give or take so the catalyst is decent and fair

ProfMunchKinApr 20, 20162 votes

Riot stated earlier this season that they were making mana more of a mage stat and mana regen more of a support stat. Admittedly, if you are spamming abilities to CS then you will run out of mana eventually, but in reality you should be active enough to not run OOM until you need to back for other reasons.

The reasoning behind catalyst is that you will take some damage in a trade unless your opponent is truly terrible. So you can trade more frequently and when you do so you will restore some health because of your mana expenditures.

TheRealStriderApr 20, 20162 votes

"You should never be incentivized for taking damage" Okay, so I guess we'll just remove all the fucking tanks from the game? Idk if you know what "Thornmail" is. How about Randuin's passive? No?

Heinz LegendApr 20, 20163 votes

Do I need to remind you this is a patch for mages? Do you realize Catalyst is a mage item and used more often by mages? No, I don't believe so.

And comparing it to Randuins and Thornmail? Anti slow, anti crit, and auto reflect on top of armor. Those are completely viable defensive combat effects, mana regen is not.

But I guess that'll be on me for not building my mid laners tank. Thornmail Ahri and LeBanc here I come.

TheRealStriderApr 21, 20163 votes

I'm not saying mages are meant to be tanks or are meant to take high amounts of damage, but it's not about eating a bunch of damage FOR the regen, it's that WHEN you take damage, the BONUS is that you GET regen. It's there to make up for the fact that, unless your opponent is actually brain-dead or sleeping, you're going to be taking return-damage in trades, this regen compensates for that return-damage to give you more sustain in lane, allowing you to bully more effectively with some safety in your sustain. It's not meant to incentivize you becoming unkillable, it's meant to incentivize trading often, hence buying it on more bruiser-y AP champs like, say, Swain, Galio, etc.

Also you said "you should never be incentivized for taking damage". NEVER. I was saying your point was dumb and unfocused cuz you're just kinda bitching at that point. There are already incentives in the game for taking damage or being in the thick of fights (sunfire, thornmail, abyssal, and so on).

cuddlykitten4Apr 21, 20164 votes

Ok, so these guys Amumu Nunu Singed Galio Maokai Swain no longer count as mages? Also, you don't think that Fiddlesticks is perfect for that item? Besides, sometimes it's not that you want to take damage to get the mana. Sometimes you can't avoid taking the damage and need the extra mana anyways. I like that the item is more unique than being another "you get this much mana per second" item. I think it sounds (this is gonna get me downvoted, just watch) fun.

LïfêšÅBädDrêàmApr 21, 20162 votes

Thats not incentive thats you having to take damage to deal damage

TheRealStriderApr 21, 20162 votes

You don't HAVE to take damage to deal damage, thornmail incentivizes you taking more damage for the team in order to deal BONUS damage for already doing your job (aka tanking). The incentive is that you get BONUS damage for taking more damage. As far as the mage item is concerned, it still doesn't incentivize TAKING damage, it gives you a bonus for when you INEVITABLY take damage in trades or fights.

Vistha KaiApr 21, 20161 votes

You do realize, we are talking about the squishy back line, right?

The same kind of champions that die the moment somebody jumps at them, no?

TheRealStriderApr 21, 20163 votes

Except we're not. We're talking about champs that are meant to be in fights doing consistent magic damage like Galio, Swain, Aurelion, etc. You don't get it on someone like LeBlanc or something. You get it on someone who wants to frequently trade and fight so that you have extra regen to make those trades safer.

Light SovereignApr 21, 20161 votes

Woah.... riot whats this for? item 3222

cuddlykitten4Apr 21, 20162 votes

Unless you're a tank/mage hybrid. Besides, it also gives you a means to gain the health back. It's not that you gain the health and mana from the fight as much as the fact that it makes the enemy think you have less health and mana than you actually have. There are more things to this than you give it credit for. Learn to think outside your box.

Berry DragonApr 19, 201620 votes

why did you suck the fun out of this game

FlierApr 19, 201616 votes

sometimes i wonder if the game designers play the game, or . passed basic math for that reason.

GwingMasterApr 19, 201610 votes

Can somebody explain what happened to Vel' Koz? To be clear - I never really thought he needed all that much in the way of changes to begin with. When he was announced as one of the big updates, tho, there was a lot interesting conversation about things that could be changed to emphasize his thematic and play niche. Looking at the microsite, it seems like all you did was tweak the way his ult interacts with his passive. While I'm sure it makes his ult way more powerful, I really don't see how that in any way solves the problems you guys outlined with him at the start of this process. Seems like you could've used that "big update" spot on somebody else if this is all you were gonna do

SBSupermanApr 20, 20161 votes

It looks (to me) like they took away his ability to get more than one passive proc of true damage away in a fight and gave his ult more damage if you land a full combo. I'm not really sure what happens if the ult is the third part of his passive, does it start magic and then become true damage? The mini site didn't explain it very well when I read it on my phone :(

UndeadYoshiApr 20, 20162 votes

actually, his ultimate doesn't apply passive procs at all, and instead, if you get three stacks on an enemy through basic abilities, your ultimate does true damage to that target. Also, his q doesn't indicate it's max range to enemies anymore.

WoodyharrisApr 19, 20169 votes

fellas bring back patch rundown

JohnywangApr 20, 20163 votes

rite!!! i dont wanna sit and read or have to listen to an hour long podcast. give me a 5-6 min patch rundown so i can watch it while i Que uppp

Magister RagunApr 19, 20169 votes

Why are you adding significant RNG elements to a mostly deterministic skill based game?

StrompestApr 21, 20168 votes

Hi, Rank 146 Challenger here. Riot I beg you: Please stop adding stupid changes to the game, such as the Elemental dragons. I understand that you want to create "innovation" or bring something new to the game. Fine, I get it, you want to change things up to keep us interested, but don't bring change at the cost of ruining the game, which actually ironically drives us away. The specific changes I'm referring to are the dragon changes. The dragons are too based on RNG and in the first place, and the stats they give completely ruin the current game dynamics. Water Dragon = people that actually win and dominate their lane get punished. Fire Dragon = Welcome to the league of Jhin and Veigar. Both I and various challenger players agree that the dragon rework is literally the stupidest thing introduced as of yet. If you're down dragons, especially those that are important in achieving objectives or winning teamfights such as the Earth or Fire dragon, it is basically impossible to win the game while playing from behind. As someone that is literally in the top 150 of players that play the game in NA as well as someone that genuinely loves League, I can guarantee that if you keep adding unnecessary and game-breaking changes like this, the game will die. There will be no future for League of Legends. Please, hire an actual balance team that knows how to realistically develop and balance the game rather than creative developers that wanna get their ideas out at the cost of the game's enjoyability factor.

PristinelyssiaApr 21, 20163 votes

you put Riot in a position where they have find a middle ground or fear your doomsay, because you think how much you've been playing (and the small populous with you) deserves more significant say than those who don't compare in rankings (yet).

i promise you those in the entire challenger tier "pay less" at this point (as they are both outnumbered and 'saturated' economically) by the combination of all remaining Tiers plus norms.

with this understanding shared, i will address the validity of your detest for the dragons...

the dragons randomly spawning is a good thing, not a bad:

Q: why?

A: because it puts more pressure on jungle and causes teamwork the need for creativity and innovation.

Q: havent the advantaged obtained by killing dragons always been too extreme?

A: yes; my argument here with Riot as that they need to find supreme balance for their game; overall.

But, first, i must have you know. The new dragons are as an amazing edition to the nature of Runeterra as the bonus gained for killing need to be watered down to a place where players like you can handle them (if that population does in fact need to be addressed - seeing as how challenger populous is so skillful, knowledgeable and successful that challenger tier should be able to maturely handle any unexpected change to the game with optimal adaptation; as this is what would make challenger who they are).

more reasons to break lane and maximize the opportunities for strategic advantages (at all times) is something that is very necessary on any map with three lanes.

i agree that the bonuses obtained by killing the dragons need to be toned down a surgical bit...

i do NOT agree that the new dragons are a bad idea.

the more the designers expand on Runeterra, the more of a game they provide us with. We should let them expand - despite their desperate absence of balance in the game. i would let them balance and expand.

i for one would like to see more of Runeterra, i feel as though i might be in love with their world... the rest of us shouldn't miss that experience because a few challengers want to (just) fight (and only fight) on the same three maps all the time (with nothing new worth learning about the world in terms of canon lore EVER added?).

according to how much you like to represent the challenger teir u compete in, i would be lead to believe that challengers may be self-absorbed in their accomplishment to the extent that they do NOT love Riot enough to think about the health of the company or game if BLACKMAIL is what they would choose to resort to. . .

i mean damn

PristinelyssiaApr 21, 20161 votes

i'm a norm with 7 ranked losses and i love Riot more than you do. even if i never so much as make it to diamond (which i'm training for) and stay a norm with 7 losses for the rest of my life, i would still support Riot and what they are doing because i always want their products in my life.

if Riot released a new game and it flopped because it was horrible, i would be one of the people who would still buy the game in order to support the company i love (because i know how to forgive other entrepreneurs for trying to innovate).

everyone "loved Squaresoft" until they released the bouncer in America, and everyone hit the stores with returns so hard Square eventually had to merge with Enix. . . in Japan and around Asia people don't do that to a company they claim to love.

did you know there are oodles of anime and games that Japan would NEVER permit over seas for many reasons of salty sourness involving the American community for reason like that???

i didn't keep my copy of the bouncer or even play it much, but i sure as hell never returned it for a refund because i wanted Squaresoft in my life.

we should want Riot in our lives because we should love them the way they love us. There's nothing wrong with that. it shouldn't matter what Tier you're in.

i'm offended by Strompest, all, i'm so sorry.

don't pretend to love something you're willing to doomsay or blackmail.

StrompestApr 21, 20165 votes

Not everyone is a diehard fan like you that'll stick with Riot regardless of the stupidity in implementation of concepts. Stating an obvious trend is not blackmail - League has been losing their playerbase since about season 4, although we are not given the exact data of how many players have left. Although I don't know if balance changes are the main cause of this, this dragon rework will obviously contribute to it as well as simplifying game mechanics such as jungle timers (which pro junglers like Crumbz and Amazing have publicly spoken out against on social media). I do not claim to love Riot Games - I love the game of League of Legends otherwise I couldn't play it for hours upon hours. League of legends is both a competitive game and an MMO - Riot wants to cater to the general MMO audience whilst sacrificing the quality of conpetitive play by dumbing things down like the jungle timers as I said before. In addition, Dynamic queue has been very harmful to the competitive environment - although I exclusively solo queue, numerous dynamic queue abusers have made it into higher ranks, and boosting has been made much easier for those in that detestable business since they can boost five accounts at once. Its a system that seems good in the short term but can have damaging long term effects as solo queue talent is replaced by those that abuse dynamic queue. For example, when I queue at 3 AM - 8 AM, my queue times are guaranteed to be about 30 minutes to an hour. I get on a team with four randoms, and the enemy team has 5 challengers in dynamic queue. Obviously a 5 man coordinated challenger team will defeat a mix of soloing challengers, masters, and diamonds. But are challengers and other high elo players that abuse the system like this actually challenger? Do their individual skills and decisionmaking match up to the standards? Regardless, Riot needs to take the advice of pros and challengers because we understand the game in a much more logical scope than their developers - cool concepts are not acceptable if they come at the cost of the quality of gameplay. We are high elo because we UNDERSTAND and KNOW the game inside out - making dragon a bit more rewarding is fine, but these changes are making the game REVOLVE entirely around dragon such that if you lose an important dragon, you're basically screwed. Dragon is meant to HELP teams that are ahead, not singlehandedly win the game for them.

StrompestApr 21, 20166 votes

Sorry that you have to resort to ad hominem and can't keep up a civilized discussion about this topic. Masculinity has nothing to do with a logical and realistic approach to the impending changes of the game.

StrompestApr 21, 20163 votes

The game is devolving. There is no need to be sarcastic or attempt to mock me - I could mock you for your 0-7 W/L and 1/10 score averages if I had pleased, but I am addressing you as a fellow player. League of Legends is not a team-oriented game in regards to low elo as well as solo queue; obviously you have a lackluster understanding of the game since you don't understand this. Competitive is a whole different matter of course. By forcing a drastic and idiotic change like the dragon changes, it takes away from the balance of the game and decreases the enjoyablity factor, like I've said, as well as consistency since dragons are RNG based.

0blivionApr 20, 20167 votes

This conversation makes me extremely nervous for the future of League.

Bloodborne 2Apr 19, 20166 votes

yall talking about shit that we havent even seen yet. the microsite aint even out yet

RiotA Small ManApr 19, 201613 votes

Haha sorry about that, jumped the gun a bit on the main site so had to pull the podcast briefly, but it's back up now! Let us know what you think and what we can do better :D

HellioningApr 19, 20166 votes

I, too, will enjoy needing a shotcaller in solo queue.

Oh wait, there is no solo queue.

I see your genius plan, Rito.

ScreamThePrayerApr 19, 20164 votes

I like the new items but it feels like the main champions didn't get a lot of loving. Most of them were very minute things, but loved all of them. The Many More Section of the mages was fantastic because it stated what was just changed. I'm an anivia main and love her new ult ability. With these changes tho will this cause ratios to spiral down?

Also does Fiddlesticks need more loving? Malz changes were because he didn't feel that useful without his ult. That is the definition of Fiddle especially since fear makes targets crawl away from him. Well we see any changes in the future to help him out? The passive seems like a good start.

RunearisApr 19, 20164 votes

Define some Brawling Mages for me.... Melee Range mages? Mages who auto? I am confused by that term.....

AlexXenoApr 20, 20162 votes

I think they mean like swain, and other such mages that are meant to survive a longer duel. Less prone to assassins and such.

Only VelKozApr 19, 20164 votes

Lack of numbers aside, the change on Vel ult looks cool. Should correct the inconsistency felt when trying to get multiple deconstruction procs on targets while ulting.

LïfêšÅBädDrêàmApr 21, 20161 votes

You're defending Vel Koz cause you like him... your name and icon say that. But if you cant see a five man true damage lazer is broken, youre either really stubborn, or really dumb.

KylerEzraStarApr 22, 20161 votes

Do you realize how hard it would be to make it true damage to all 5 targets? I feel that the 1v1 was definitely buffed, though his ult in a team fight was ultimately nerfed.

Only VelKozApr 27, 20161 votes

Defending? Sorry I called his changes "cool"? What's with you? But here's some defense for you, I guess:

In order to proc research on 5 targets, you would have to hit all 5 enemies with both procs of W and a Q/E. Not as free as it sounds.

I have a feeling you gave both this post and my comment a cursory glance before you decided to shitpost at me.

LïfêšÅBädDrêàmApr 28, 20161 votes

100% :^) true damage is why we cant have nice things, i hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me have a nice day

PSOCALYApr 19, 20164 votes

I was expecting more from Zyra

She's going to feel like Illaoi in a way, like how plants are going to randomly appear around her

I thought you guys were going to add another type of plant to her kit, that you guys were getting rid of her useless passive and her NOT useless W, and give her a new type of plant, that would've been awesome in my opinion, but we will have to see, her plants and model look better now, I'm excited about that

Hopefully Zyra's rework makes her gameplay 10 times better than it already is

(Kind of upset that Vayne is going to be the only champion with her title in one of her abilities RIP Rise of Thorns)

RawManNoodlesApr 19, 20164 votes

Lot's of hard work obiviously went into all of this! I love listening to these podcasts while I go on runs; Lots to be entertained by and learn! Keep up the great work friends :)

InfantFetusApr 21, 20164 votes

You guys should polish up your resumes. After these mid season patches riot is going to clean house when all of its player base formally backlashes against the bullshit that you turned s6 into. Thanks for ruining a beloved game of mine for the last 6 years.

Sincerely, the LOL community

KylerEzraStarApr 22, 20161 votes

Please don't speak for the entire community. Feel free to continue speaking for yourself.

Sneaky2008Apr 20, 20163 votes

Could you guys post a video of you guys sensually eating strawberries? Thanks

DerêkApr 20, 20162 votes

Is that the young Jim Gaffigan??

MazariamontiApr 21, 20162 votes

I don't want to be the guy that acts like these designers have no idea what they're talking about, and I know they do, but I swear these guys just have no idea how to relate to these problems that they are attempting to fix.