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Spring Split: 10 bans in pro-play

Riot··12 votes·108,080 views

Hi, folks.

A while ago we talked about how we were considering changing to a 10 ban system. We’ve now got an approach we’re happy with that we’ll be using for Pro-Play in all leagues run by Riot. I’d like to share our thinking behind that system - what its goals are, how it will work, and why we’re changing bans in Pro-Play before anywhere else.


Why more bans?

In pro play we think pick/ban changes can lead to an increase in champion diversity and strategic play. We believe that offering more bans will encourage deeper champion pools with more individual champions seeing the Rift - and that it’ll make a fun and engaging draft phase for fans to watch. The plan here is to give each team two additional bans partway through the draft; this midpoint ban should encourage adaptability and reward teams who can accurately predict what strategies their opponents are planning then move swiftly to counter them.

We tested these theories in partnership with pros, trialed a few different solutions and took their feedback into account when introducing the new changes. As with every new change, we’ll be gathering consistent feedback from fans and pros as we roll out the extended bans.


Organized Play vs Matchmaking considerations

We think improvements to the pick/ban system can offer multiple benefits. Those will be somewhat different in pro play or other organized play, than in regular games though. In organized play you’re playing with a consistent group, you know who your opponents are and what they play, and you may even have played against them before. In matchmade games by contrast you’re adapting to a new group and don’t have any initial information about the team you’ll be facing. The needs and benefits of each context’s somewhat different as a result.


Organized play pick/ban - what does it look like?

The first part of champ select will be the same as at present, with both sides banning 3 champs then some picks. Blue picks first, red picks twice, blue picks twice and then red picks once again. After that there’s a second ban phase, where the two sides alternate bans back and forth, starting with red side. There’s then a final pick phase, where red picks once, blue picks twice and red picks one final time.

After iterating and exploring different versions of drafts with pros and semi-pros worldwide, we reached this version. We also made sure this change didn’t lead to an increase of time of the P&B phase.


What about regular matchmade games that use bans?

Revised pick/ban for regular play will come somewhat later than the changes in organized play. We’re still assessing what style of pick/ban changes makes the most sense for regular games, given the different circumstances (unfamiliar allies, lack of information about your opposition).

Shifting to 10 bans still has a lot of appeal, in particular because it allows one ban per player giving each person equal agency in the ban phase. Goals of bans are somewhat different though (e.g. you’re not banning the unusual pick you know the enemy team likes to run).

The amount of time it takes to get into a game’s also a particularly big concern for regular games, given we’re already getting a lot of feedback that time from pressing ‘Play’ to actually starting the game feels too long. Some of the options we’re looking at include reduced time in champ select as a focus as a result.

We should be able to talk more about our thoughts on pick/ban changes in regular play early 2017. In the meantime if you’ve got any thoughts on pick/ban, whether in pro or regular play, please do let us know!

Meddler

644 Comments

EndlessSorcerer195 votes

We’re still assessing what style of pick/ban changes makes the most sense for regular games, given the different circumstances (unfamiliar allies, lack of information about your opposition).

Personally, I'd be happy if regular games used the same format as professional games.

While you might not be able to target ban specific players on the enemy team, you can still adjust to the champions picked by your allies and opponents.

  • Has the enemy already picked an ADC? you probably don't need to ban Vayne or Caitlyn.

  • Allies have pick several CC-oriented champions (i.e. Ashe, Nautilus, Janna) while the enemy doesn't have a jungler/support? Consider banning Olaf and/or Morgana.

Dereksmifzz14 votes

[deleted]

marcolandon54 votes

Rammus ok

m0nkcha0s20 votes

Rammus k

MJA16 votes

Rammus ok

Horrid7343 votes

Rammus affirmative Rammus an approving statement that shows recognition Rammus acknowledging set of two letters of O and K that signify the acceptance and observation of the current situation and first command statement that demands recognition by those around it Rammus fine

Lendar41079 votes

Here's an idea for 10 bans in regular play.

All TEN players ban at once. Here me out, similar to blind pick format just for banning. Each player selects a champion to ban and locks it in to finalize said ban. Any champion could be picked-to-ban until it is finalized, to prevent someone from hovering a champion and changing it last second to not get banned.

Example: A player hovers yasuo during the banning phase. Any other player could select yasuo, until one of those players finalizes yasuo as their ban. Thus blacking-out yasuo for every other player, and forcing anyone who had yasuo selected to pick another ban.)

Once the banning phase ends, simply start draft mode or whatever mode applicable.

Thoughts?

SirTyyyson14 votes

Wow! That's a seller idea! If you limit the time down to say 30 seconds, then in 30 seconds you would have all the bans figured out for the game! However, I see only one issue. What if you pick a champion to be banned and the opposing side picks the same champion? Hmmm...

I love your suggestion though. I also made a suggestion above if you wanna take a look. It's what if you pre-selected a champion to be banned in the same way you pick your primary and secondary role.

TheSnacken5 votes

i can see this being effective, and my only addition would be that, when bans are locked below. 6 seconds, return the timer TO 6 seconds, ensuring that anyone whose ban got banned before them time to find a new ban.

Lohith38 votes

I actually really like this idea. But make it so each team can ban the same champion, so a game has between 5 and 10 unique bans. I think this would be more fun because you are basically playing chicken

IHonkForYordles15 votes

This so much. Neither side should be able to see what the other side is banning until everything's finalized. Keeps it simple and fast - no reactive shenanigans except with your own team.

burning70 votes

Huhi doesn't have enough champs for this...

Unholy Paladin14 votes

item 3151 summoner 3

Hyperiön48 votes

First I want to say thanks to Rito for this amazing up and coming update, hopefully it reaches us regular folks soon.

Secondly, I can't wait for the day this hits the regulars so Yasuo will be deleted from the game even more :)

ZT Xperimentor47 votes

Now how about adding 10 bans for common players?

US Senator23 votes

They did say they are looking into that for this year, but are concerned about it adding to long game start times.

RiotMeddler80 votes

The other factor is that we also need everyone to be using the new client before we can make pick/ban changes. That's easy for pro play, it'll be a little while yet though before that's the case for regular games.

AMYS GRAVE9 votes

Am i led to believe that 10 bans for normal play is otherwise ready, and that once the new client comes out it will be a flip of the switch?

RiotMeddler29 votes

No. There's work that also needs to be done on 10 bans for matchmade games, including exact choice of format.

ForFoxSakes5 votes

I'd use the new client if it showed me which side I'm on while in the lobby. If i missed the 2 seconds it flashes while getting into lobby I have no idea which side I'm on which actually matters when jungling to decide my route, who leashes and champ

WhiteChaika28 votes

Bro, first pick has always gone to blue side... then red side gets two picks then blue side, red side always has last pick, idk how long you've been playing but if you cant figure out what side your on in pick phase, maybe you shouldnt be playing to start with

plumpy9914 votes

now how about reading the whole article before complaining?

Jäx47 votes

Bans for TSM vs C9: Azir Zed Leblanc Syndra Ahri TwistedFate Viktor Orianna Cassiopeia Xerath

MJA23 votes

you forgot Zilean

50000000000000009 votes

Zyra Illaoi LeeSin Evelynn Anivia Nasus

Drexif14 votes

RIP Bjergsen

DeltaRaven21 votes

banning azir/zed in 2017 lul

18 derps44 votes

This is awesome because they can ban all the mages so they have to play assassins*[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]*

SadKill28 votes

The amount of people who seem to complain before reading all of the post is appalling to say the least.

Lets Abort27 votes

Solo Queue needs to have 4 champs who are banned daily by the client. These were the top 4 bans from the day previous across all elos. Then continue with the standard 6 ban system. This results in 10 bans, automatically removing the obvious 4 who are deemed "must ban" across all play. I understand that every other day the same 4 might indeed just rotate, because they can't be in the 4 auto ban every day due to not being able to ban them in 6 ban system. This honestly makes the most sense, with the least amount of effort and change.

Lets Abort19 votes

Anyone who disagrees and downvotes why don't you continue the discussion as to why this isn't the best solution? Nah you can't actually think of anything better but for some reason you would rather downvote.

Aeszarck70 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets Abort,realm=NA,application-id=Ag8jgd8Q,discussion-id=EHMOUL6B,comment-id=00160000,timestamp=2017-01-05T20:33:03.601+0000)

Anyone who disagrees and downvotes why don't you continue the discussion as to why this isn't the best solution? Nah you can't actually think of anything better but for some reason you would rather downvote.

Some players would feel alienated because their favorite champions would be banned for an entire day. "Highest ban rate champions for the day" also does not change much over a patch, so these players would not have any chance to play these champions for a long time. Even only getting a chance to play your champion every other day is frustrating.

EDIT: Hey everyone, I know Lets Abort's opinion isn't popular, but downvotes aren't supposed to show disagreement, they're supposed to show that a post isn't contributing to discussion. His or hers is definitely related to the topic at hand, even though I (and a lot of you, apparently) think that what he or she is asking isn't very well thought out. On the other hand, upvotes are used to show agreement.

Wildlife17 votes

You are only talking about yasuo players, and everyone hates yasuo, so it's a win-win situation

Lenox01319 votes

I like the idea of 1 ban per player in SoloQ, but I can see how it might add to frustratingly long start times due to Q-dodgers.

What about a change to the Q-dodge system? The further into champ select you get, the longer the penalty. Maybe add a minute for each champ locked in.

Ex: base is 6 minutes (first time), P&B gets to second ban phase (6 champs locked in so far) and last pick dodges because second ban phase removes their champ choice. 12 minute ban (6 base plus 1 for each lock)

Double it for a second offense - same scenario would be 24 minutes the next time (12 base plus 2 for each lock).

This keeps dodgers out of Q longer each time and makes it less likely that someone will want to dodge late into P&B. You'll still have people do it, but it will reduce their impact on the overall Q-times.

MrJulius1005 votes

That would actually be a pretty good idea since you do encounter a lot of dodgers these days.

Yonsu6 votes

what if i crash?

Doomhauer17 votes

k

RiotRiot Draggles32 votes

i

Presses Buttons17 votes

I hate the idea of segregation. One of the reasons that league of legends is so appealing is that we are playing the same game as the pros. Sure at vastly different levels in some cases but at least we are still playing the same game. It makes very little sense why both sides shouldn't get the 10 bans, there are around 130ish champions now. Well goodluck on everyone's climb this season and hopefully we all can get a ban soon. ;)

EndlessSorcerer17 votes

Having 10 bans relies on all players using the new client.

While Riot can easily control that in professional play (since they set the specifications for each machine and test it), they are still working out some bugs for regularly players (since they have to work with a far greater variety of components and systems).

We will be getting 10 bans soon enough.

Arylide17 votes

[zombie-nunu-bummed] I would 100% use the new client if it didn't lag so much compared to the legacy client. The legacy client might lag when selecting a lobby to join before starting the search, but the new one lags on the launch page, lags when going to the lobby selection, lags when starting the queue, lags when it finds a match, lags when the champ select starts, and lags on picks/bans. Of course its in beta atm but if it isn't much better when the legacy client is removed, it would really suck.

EndlessSorcerer5 votes

Personally, the main reason I don't use the new client is because:

  • It doesn't have item sets implemented yet
  • Editing rune and mastery pages feels clunkier
  • Friends list and previous conversations always appear when opening the client
Wizard 101 Smurf8 votes

I dislike not being able to view my friends list while in champion select, and in champion select a chat convo I may have been having previous to entering champ select usually disappears and I can no longer talk to whoever I was messaging. I do not have any problems with the new client lagging, and my PC is not the greatest. It cost ~$700 in December of 2015, and that includes about $180 for monitor and Win 10. If you lag, you may try using the "Low Spec Mode" and ticking the "Disable Animation" box. Another issue I have is that sometimes the navigation bar at the top completely dissapears and I can only see the client background image. Also, if my powerline adapter drops out on me for a second and I get disconnected from chat it doesn't ever reconnect, which is somewhat frustrating. Other than that, though, I feel the new client has very few bugs for an early beta version. Also, Runes look flipping beautiful. I would like to have more than some symbol telling my what everything is though, it isn't very clear as to what some things are.

ÿëët 42015 votes

The first thing I thought when I saw this was "what would happen if you banned all of the adc's?"...

Lenox01316 votes

you end up with Ziggs v Cassiopeia bot

grarrrg4 votes

Bot Lane Soraka/Bard double bluff. Which ones the carry? Which ones the support? WHO KNOWS!

78750242DEL19 votes

@Riot, let's fix the damn new client first before we shift into this problem. <3

SadKill39 votes

Do you even read the posts before commenting?

CoyoteTrang5 votes

doesn't 10 seem extreme? why not 5 or 6. 20 champ bans seems like alot total.

Leaf of the lake134 votes

If your reading comprehension exceeded that of a first grader, you'd know it was 5 bans per team, for 10 total. They even added a pretty chart to make it clear.

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