Skip to content

Ask Riot How You Get That S+ on Urgot

Riot··11 votes·162,209 views

Welcome to Ask Riot.

This is a space where we focus on your questions and give you answers.

Urgot, Champ Mastery grades, and the evolution of League of Legends are on tap for this week.

Have a question (or two...hundred) yourself? Head over Ask Riot and sign into your League account. Check out the Do’s, the Don'ts, and then ask us something. We’ll archive the answers once we’ve accumulated a few of them. One thing to note, asking the same question over and over again won’t help your cause. (Yes, I’m talking to you, who asked why you’re still banned from Hextech Crafting and did 40 times. Please don’t do that.)

Ask Riot

We’re committed to reading every question but can’t guarantee we’ll answer them all.

“Okay, why not?”

Some questions may already be answered elsewhere or won’t be right for Ask Riot. For example, we won’t typically be launching new products or features here or talking about issues we’ve already gone into more depth elsewhere (but we can clarify individual points!). Even if your question isn’t the one being answered, we’re listening, and we’ll be sharing your questions with the Rioters who are working directly on the things you’re curious about.

Note: We will be off next week, but will return on July 14th to answer more of your questions.



Do you think there will ever be a point where League of Legends is "finished" and won't be updated but still maintained "skins, e-sports, etc." or do you think it will continuously evolve, the glorious League-olution?

Aspirationally, we operate as if League design is something we can theoretically finish. Realistically, that probably won’t happen within the lifespan of the game for a couple of reasons I’ll go into below. However, when we treat the design as something we can finish, we hope that helps us make decisions that zero in on great design instead of just bouncing around arbitrarily.

You might be asking yourself if we think it’s possible to zero in on a perfect game, why do we make so many changes every patch? First, evolution is one of the League design values. Riot was founded on a belief that developers should continually improve their product rather than operate in a “fire and forget” capacity, where you ship a game, maybe patch a couple of bugs, and move on to the next game. While there are truly some games that stand the test of time, for videogames in particular, it’s easy for a product to look and feel old if you aren’t out there constantly keeping up with the state of the art and player expectations. We feel the same way about game design. If a champion starts to feel like it uses old mechanics or can’t compete with more recent champions and all of their flashy movement abilities and 3-hit passives, we look at them for an update.

Second, we know that the game would continue to evolve even if we took our foot off the pedal and did nothing. Even in very old fighting games with little or no developer support, the meta (in this case, which fighter is considered dominant and what the most favored playstyles are) frequently continue to shift. A certain character or move may be considered unbeatable, until someone develops a counter-strategy, and then maybe that one becomes the new status quo. We think this would happen with League as well. The risk is that it could happen slowly. If the game hits a state where say tanks feel unbeatable or Ahri is used every game, or split pushing is all anyone does, then it’s likely players would eventually solve these problems and the meta would shift again. But that could take months or years and those players really looking for a dynamic experience almost every game (which is something we aspire to create/offer you) might get bored and move on from League. We wring our hands a lot about whether a new trend is a blip on the radar that will be gone next week or something that has ossified and requires us to step in with some hefty patch notes.

And as you point out, even if we hit a point in which we could minimize our updates for balance and game health reasons, we would still want to offer things like new champions, skins, and esports events, because those things are fun and help keep the game fresh.

-Ghostcrawler, Game Design Director



What is up with Urgot and why is he such a difficult champion to update?

At his core, Urgot has both a very muddied thematic and gameplay fantasy. Half of Urgot’s identity consists of being a hulking heap of horror that intimidates and maliciously runs down anyone who stands in his way. At the same time, Urgot is also a high-tech weapons platform that has the ability to relentlessly bombard and terrorize his enemies from fairly long ranges. The dissonance between these two identities courses throughout his entire character, as a result, Urgot lacks a cohesive identity.

From a game design standpoint, Urgot has some cool toys that simply don’t mesh well together. For example, Hyper-Kinetic Position Reverser is one of the coolest and most iconic abilities in the game, but it awkwardly forces him to move directly into the middle of the fray, a playstyle the rest of his kit doesn’t fully support. Urgot also has several low-satisfaction mechanics, such as the damage reduction debuff on his passive, that functionally get the job done but lack excitement. As a whole, Urgot’s gameplay is fairly outdated - his kit lacks nuance due to being somewhat simplistic and doesn’t allow for interesting interactions outside of trying to dodge E.

At the end of the day, we want to re-define Urgot with a clear and unified champion fantasy. This will likely involve figuring out the right way to wed his dissonant identities while also adding in new unique aspects that set him apart from the rest of the League cast. Lastly, we want fresh gameplay that really delivers on the fantasy of being a Zaun-Enhanced Abomination from Noxus that better matches our more mature game design standards. Urgot isn’t on the listed Champion Update schedule at this time, but these are the kinds of problems we will need to tackle with his design when we do get to him.

-Statikk, Lead Designer on Champion Update



What is in the champ mastery grades formula?

The grades you receive are driven by how you stack rank against all other players in your region who also played your champion and position across various performance categories. We don’t reveal the exact formula so that it can’t be min-maxed as we really want to avoid incentivizing playing for stats like CS or K/D/A rather than playing to win. However, the variables are fairly intuitive in terms of what you would expect to be important to winning.

-Riot Socrates, Lead Game Designer


Please feel free to hit us up in the comments. Each of the Rioters who answered will do their best to engage in a conversation with you.

865 Comments

macdshifty427 votes

Q. What is in the champ mastery formula A. Uhh... just play normal

That seriously doesn't help the people asking this question. I don't think it has occurred to Riot that the reason why this is such a popular question is that the grade you receive at the end of the match almost never matches expectations and seems arbitrary. Which is why people want to know what categories to perform well in because playing normally doesn't equate to you getting an S.

Now Riot can keep saying they won't tell anyone because then people will try to play for stats (as if playing for good stats isn't a good thing), but the alternative is people play for stats based on popular theories on what helps. So Riot believes it would be problematic for someone to pick a champ and know what averages they need to beat in order to get an S, and then work toward that goal in game, because maybe someone decides to afk farm for a bit to hit a cs quota. The problem is Riot gives people incentives to care about the ratings and so people will go into games with the end goal of getting an S rather than winning anyway. Only instead of knowing what averages they need to beat, they do the same thing Riot thinks people will only do if they knew the exact formula, which is play for stats that are popularly believed to increase rating. An example of this is a recent gbay video where he is trying to get mastery level 7 on irelia. After failing to get an S by playing normally, he looks around for popular theories on what gets you an S and decides to afk farm away from his team as much as possible, and ks at every given opportunity because to the best of his knowledge kills contribute to your rating far better than assists.

So instead of giving people the rubric on what they are being graded on (like any actually legitimate test giver who wants to be taken seriously), people resort to playing for stats regardless if their goal is centered on mastery rank. Only instead of trying to beat an average of 8 kills or something specific for their champion, they will just attempt to ks all game long, or extend the game to farm kills/cs. Good way to encourage unhealthy gameplay.

EDIT: Glad to see the post generating a discussion (120+ comments so far) but keep in mind a couple things

  1. Different roles do in fact have different rating criteria (saw a bunch of comments wondering if this was the case)
  2. The issue I mostly discuss in this comment is how despite Riot not divulging the formula, players nonetheless play for stats but to a greater extent than they would if Riot was more transparent.
  3. Where I think the system is lacking most and possible change ideas? http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/jUxEs8pi-differences-between-the-champion-mastery-rating-system-and-a-common-academic-grading-system
Supreme Senpai69217 votes

Adding onto this, as a support main, I'm put into a situation nearly every game where I must choose-- do I save my carry and risk dying? Or since I'm safe, do I just get away to try to get an S?

Do I leave my ward on cooldown because the jungler was just in top lane and I'm not in any risk of being ganked and should save it until he leaves top lane? Or do I ward every second it's up because that might get me an S?

My carry and jungler have this kill secured but I want an assist. Do i flash just to get the assist?

Etc. It's true for every role but especially true for supports because their entire identity is that they give up their own kills, damage, items, etc in favor of the team. Knowing how to get an S would help me play to win and get an S. Maybe it doesn't matter how many times you die as a support as much as we think it does so I can play without limits.

And besides, knowing how to get an S doesn't mean you'll automatically get one every game. If you need 15 kills for an S then it's still difficult to get those. And killing 15 people will still help you win the game.

FSN GodHand66 votes

Before the Mastery 6 and 7 came out I just do my best as a support main in game, but now with those "new objectives" in mind it's scary how it affects my split-second decisions, wasting summoner abilities and accidentally KSing all because somewhere in the back of my head, winning doesn't matter anymore as long as I get that S.

Tamuut31 votes

In a few of my games, some of the supports (you guys are the unsung MVPs) wanted to get S ranks to get to Master 6 or 7, so they wanted to get the last hit on dragon and baron. A bunch of times this led to it getting stolen since the enemy could rush in and smite it down. I'm not blaming them for wanting to get the S ranks, but stuff like that can turn a game easily.

TNTturtle14 votes

Do you guys think that things would be better if we knew what stats were factored into the formula? Most of my fellow supports have spoken already, and I find myself in the same situation where I can do pretty well in a game, but end up with just a A or A+ sometimes and then B's or S's other times without really understanding what I did better or worse since stats vary so much between games.

a werepanda14 votes

This! A thousand times this!

Vfresz87 votes

Also it seems to me as though riots formula for rating supports isn't optimized. It seems to weigh kills much heavier than assists which is not how a support should usually be played. It encourages supports to KS their carries which is actually detrimental to their chances of winning.

DapperGunman86 votes

This.... before the "ranks" i always had 0 kills, with the exception of here and there where i had 1 or 2. but now it seems im being forced to take kills.

the assists and deaths should matter, kills SHOULDNT EVEN BE IN THE EQUATION RIOT.

CS should NOT matter either, not all supports buy relic, or have ability to clear minions.

Im tired of feeling like i have to fk over the team for an S.

And make wards matter, FOR EVERY ROLE. then people will start warding. 35+ for supports, at least 15 for everyone else.

kerfungle29 votes

you guys notice recently that map vision almost always vanishes once laning phase ends?

JRobin3110 votes

As a player who hasn't had much trouble scoring S grades, I'm going to chime in here (I've managed to score an S+ on a game I lost).

There are tricks that help a player get S grades (I won't reveal the more shady methods). I will say that the popularized tricks for getting an S generally aren't the right way to go about it. AFK farming, kill stealing, and other popular notions are flawed methods for achieving an S grade. You might say you got an S in a game you AFK farmed, but I'm telling you that AFK farming might not have been your best option in that game!

You might think that to get the S grade you have to stat chase. I often get S grades and I do not stat chase. I also think that this is really a bad way to go about it and can even hurt your chances. While I'm on the topic of things that really hurt your chances for an S grade, I'm going to let you know one of the worst ways to hurt your chances of an S grade: dying. Obviously there is more to getting an S than having 0 deaths, but dying is probably the easiest way to drop your grade to an A+. You can have a great game, but if you die once to the wrong opponent that can be the difference between an S and an A. To me this highlights one of the flaws in thinking you have to stat chase to get an S by AFK farming or kill stealing. Mostly it's the opposite, and not dying is much much more important.

TL;DR If you think you have to stat chase to get an S grade, then rethink your strategy. It's less about securing stats for yourself and more about making sure you don't give up stats to the opponent.

Fourthfifth12 votes

I dont understand why everyone on here is crying? i am a support main and get S+,S and S- nearly every game i win. It's simple, support your team, get your adc fed, ward and dont die unnecessarily. There you go mystery solved!

Wrathblood63 votes

So, last game, I was Sup and played Janna. I went 0/2/19 in a ~30 minute game (we had 31 kills, so I had assists on 60+%), and 7 cs (because I was actively avoiding getting cs, being a non-Relic using Sup and all).

Got an A. Not an S, or an S-, or even an A+.

Now, an A is a good score and all, but 0/2/19 is a pretty terrific score-line. We won. What should I have done to warrant some brand of "S"?

RiotRiot Socrates88 votes

There's a legitimate argument that the transparency of the feedback is too opaque at the moment, especially for players who don't have enough game knowledge to understand where they had a shortcoming.

Frequently, when we see 'I don't understand why I got a (grade)' posts, we'll open it up and see the first response is someone outlining where they fell short. The fact that the player doesn't get this feedback directly is a shortcoming of the system and something we'd like to improve on. We've discussed a few approaches to this, such as possibly showing grades in performance categories. We are not locked into any particular solution yet, but none of the solutions would involve revealing specific stats.

For the most part, we're pretty happy with the grade outputs. In the case of supports however, the grading system is just not great at evaluating game factors correctly atm. We are targeting improvements to support grading with 6.14 and a general upgrade for other positions grade accuracy.

World Ender144 votes

Having performance categories for grades would be extremely helpful. Even showing averages for those categories would be more than fair, and would give a numerical and logical way for people to see what they need to improve on. "Oh, I got 150 CS this game but it says here the average on this champ for roughly this length game in this role is 200...that's probably why I didn't get an A" etc etc. These stats are already used to calculate grades, so why can't they just be displayed?

Say you write a paper for school. You do your best on the paper, only to have it returned with a grade of B, and with no comments explaining what you did poorly enough to not get an A or what you did well enough to not get a C. That doesn't help you write a better essay next time. Feedback is key to improvement, and if the only feedback is "You played well enough to get this grade" then how is one supposed to improve and fix mistakes?

Sołace15 votes

I can understand not posting the rubric for grades, however, averages for the champ you are playing After the game would be nice.

voliclerapto25 votes

I agree with @senorBunnyRabbit. If the goal of mastery is to make players want to play a champ better, by creating an environment that incentivizes good performance on said champion. It is critical that players receive feedback as to what went well and not so well in the last game. What actions earned them that grade? That is what the champion mastery system lacks, because when players are driven to earn a certain grade but have no idea the specific criteria to earn that grade then they will play not to win the game but to try to get the grade regardless of the win, or getting better at the champion. This unintended affect hurts the community and the game itself.

Exoda Crown12 votes

I agree this would be extremely helpful to have the overall score with the option to see sub-scores for different aspects of the game. Like if CS was low/weak area, then I know to practice last hitting and farming. Or if I'm dying too much,then I would know to play more passively.

RUNAAANS HYDRAA24 votes

Direct feedback would be so helpful. There have been countless hours spent frustrated with myself for

  1. Failing to identify my mistakes/weaknesses, and thus,
  2. Failing to correct them. Personally, it has definitely been the GREATEST source of tilt and shame. I DESPERATELY AND RUTHLESSLY WANT TO IMPROVE, but don't want to resort to hiring a frigging coach! If I could receive in-client info that helps me identify what to work on, my entire League experience would be monumentally improved.
    This one small change to performance grading would DRASTICALLY increase my enjoyment of the game, thus the amount of time I spend playing it and the potentially increase the amount of money I might (well, most likely, WILL) spend while passionately enjoying one of my favorite hobbies. Do this one thing for us Riot (I say this on behalf of ALL my fellow Lower-ELO Scrublordz), and we will agree to accept that solo-q is most likely maybe (but, hopefully not) dead forever. "We Learn More From Our Failures, Than We Do Our Successes"
Joseraph180 votes

Wow riot, i thought you fUrgot

ExaggeratedToast183 votes

They didn't forget, Urgot used Hyper-Kinetic Position Reverser and he ended up last in line for updates

LordOfBunnys20 votes

[deleted]

Im a Pothead21 votes

Rammus ok

MLT135 votes

They never FUrgot the Urgot they've just been busy trying to Unbench the TahmKench and Revise the Ryze

TheTragicomical95 votes

We don’t reveal the exact formula so that it can’t be min-maxed as we really want to avoid incentivizing playing for stats like CS or K/D/A rather than playing to win.

Okay okay, lemme see if I can rephrase this.

We won't reveal the conditions to get rewarded because we want to people to focus on winning rather than focus on these conditions and objectives that usually end up in a win regardless, but are also specifically rewarded by a vague algorithm that we won't explain because we just wanna see you fuckers squirm.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] SOUNDS GOOD!

Yukaluna6 votes

Nah, it basically means placing a bunch of wards in your spawn isn't going to help you get a better grade, and chasing the last support kill around the map while your team tries and fails to end because you're 1 kill away from S+ shouldn't be incentivized

TheTragicomical13 votes

We wouldn't know though if it does or doesn't help us get a better grade, or if a single kill on a support is worth more than Nexus destruction or helping end the game participation in your grading. It's all just theorized to be generally KDA, CS, and objective participation because the specifics are left vague. So people going for good grades WILL put priority the above things because we're left ignorant to how it works. And just "playing well" doesn't seem to help a lot of supports, who are expected to place a LOT of wards to help their team. But if placing wards don't count towards your grade (and if they do, do you get more points for warding certain spots, revealing champs in the fog of war with your ward, average pink ward up time?) Then how would you go about figuring out whether or not a support needs double the assists a carry should have in kills to get their S, or if CS matters for them at all? It's all a system with no clear guidelines besides the above "play good" which isn't always true because you're ranked up against people who've played the same champion in the same role, meaning a really good game won't mean jack if it's objectively worse than a series of games with the same setup because a precedent has been set to get that rank after they did. If anything, it seems like abusing off-meta picks with less precedent for their grading would be the way to go with this logic in mind, as the grading criteria has not been set for the champion in the uncommon role.

[zombie-brand-mindblown] It's a mess.

Kürama78 votes

I agree Riot, don't just ship a game then move on. Continue to develop said game.

#Dominion

IamKillax60 votes

Urgot: Riot, how do I get an S+? Riot: get good.

Aarej35 votes

git gud*

Mąjin41 votes

Ravioli, Ravioli Give Me The Formuoli

StealthWarden37 votes

We don’t reveal the exact formula so that it can’t be min-maxed

If your formula can be min-maxed in such a way that it does NOT lead to winning a match then #YOUREDOINGITWRONG

champion mastery should promote the things someone needs to do in a role with a champion that leads to victory..if you're worried about "min-maxing" than you perceive doing the things in your list to be a bad thing...why would you ever attempt to encourage them in the first place?

Sejeo17 votes

Okay lets say the way to get an s is by getting tons of farm. Dont you see how this could turn into a fuck fest? You want to end the game but the 5/2 vayne will not stop split farming in bot lane because she wants to get an s. Or lets say its about kills then ksing will make tons of people mad. you can see how it can turn into a shit show. Just do better then you normaly do.

Sxl26 votes

Malphite Is EZ Champ for S+

Hypèr26 votes

Malphite Is EZ Champ.

HighH122 votes

Malphite is EZ

ExaggeratedToast35 votes

Malphite is Ezreal

omgitsgb128 votes

Malphite is Ezreal

malphite is ezreal malpite ezreal halpit dezrol halpi dezrolr holi dezror hol dzror hol dror ho dor hodor

Vistha Kai55 votes

Malphite x Ezreal

Next on the news: "A young blond boy receives hard pounding"

Okibruez71 votes

His world got rocked; See how at 11.

IXShadowXI12 votes

Galio Anyone Remember his update?

PK Flunr20 votes

Who's that

Byrden26 votes

I think it's the new champ

Skardyn7 votes

I can't log in to ask Riot so I'll ask here for now.

Some people are having trouble getting S ranks as supports. Any comments or recommendations?

BlackKnightJack23 votes

Things that I've found work:

*Place lots of wards

*Get lots of assists on kills and objectives

*Most important of all: DON'T DIE. Seriously, it seems like deaths are the most heavily weighted factor.

Tsumi5 votes

I agree. The more deaths you have as a support seem to take away the ability to get an S.

Twilight Realm10 votes

Which is really dumb when the point of some supports is to sponge all of the damage that's coming your carry's way, to initiate into a full team (sometimes literally thrown in by your carry). Not saying all supports are like that, but it's then unfair to those supports who are.

DapperGunman29 votes

This is stupid, ive literally died on purpose so someone else doesnt have to, and they can go on to ace. its the supports job to step infront of that ult, or take that hook so your adc can ult and clean up after your death.

Or to save zed, or a yasuo, or a yi... well you get the idea.

Ensk1 votes

[deleted]

Dude8MyRice16 votes

Gather, my fellow Urgod mains!Urgot

Clandestine Fox47 votes

all two of you?

More from Announcements