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Metas

Blue Collar Bear··1 votes·1,599 views

Why is the meta the way it is? Are there other metas that could possibly work? If so, what about the idea of counter metas, as in using one meta to counter another?

EDIT:

I feel I need to be clearer. I am not asking for someone to explain what the current meta is. What I am asking is for at the very least a discussion about why the meta is this way and not another way. If someone would do more than address the first question, that would also be grand.

29 Comments

Gear Kitty2 votes

The meta, as it is now, is the most reliable and longest running way of beating any perceivable team comp given an equal balance of player skill.

The other "metas".... Duo top, Duo mid, Mage Bot carry, Roam support, and 5-Man Mid ALL have weakness that the 1-1-1-2 Meta exploits hard enough that the chance of success is too low for most anybody to use them outside of gimmick matches.

A brief overlook would be like:

  • Duo Top: You drop your dedicated Jungler for some more power in the top lane, whether you set it up as a Carry/Support, Bruiser/Support, or Double Bruiser does not matter. You lose Jungle pressure and setting up for Dragon. You may be able to claim Dragon, but ensuring an easy one is significantly harder sans Jungler.

  • Duo Mid: More power in the most important Lane is a good thing, right? Wrong. Most Mages and Mid-Laners (champions who rely on the relative safety of mid's geography and location to produce an easier laning phase) scale with LEVELS, especially the level 6 powerspike most of them receive. Splitting the EXP just means weaker mid laners on your team, and an enemy that's playing defensively. With this set-up, you can take Dragon easier than say, Duo-Top, but ganks from mid won't mean much with their lower levels AND the certainty that the enemy will be warding their approaches for counter ganks.

  • Roam Support: This is probably the second most reliable meta, and the previous main meta before our current one. The enemy has to ward more and play more defensively, you have a higher chance of pulling out larger ganks, and except for the Support, everyone tends to get more EXP and Gold. That's the problem though. In this set-up, the Roam Support could possibly get NO GOLD beyond their passive gold gain. If they cannot secure their team objectives and kills, they will be so obscenely weaker than anything else on the map that they're better off staying at base, only venturing out to place wards they bought with the passive gold.

In addition, if the enemy team runs the 1-1-1-2 line-up, which ever player lanes against the Duo-Lane could ALSO be ruined. You can see it in last season's games when pros would send their Carry/Support to Top Lane for an easier early game. The solo-laners fighting a duo were left on their own, to grab what minuscule gold and EXP they could muster, and sacrificed their turret the moment the two pushed in. Not until late game could the Top Laners recover from such an offset that they were even a small threat.

By not answering a Carry/Support duo with a Carry/Support, you risk handing the other team the win on a silver platter with a "please come again" note tagged to it.

  • All Mid: Consolidating all your power onto one spot has gotta be powerful. This has gotta be some Nostradamus levels of epiphany. Nope. The enemy easily out scales you with the gold and levels they get by not sharing one lane amongst 5 people. The enemy Jungler is eating through your Jungle too, making you fight harder monsters than you should if you try to pick up slack in there. They take Dragon without you even contesting it, because you can't, cause you're at least 2 levels and a couple grand of gold behind on them. You basically said "fuck it, I want to lose" the moment you picked this meta against anything that isn't also All Mid.

Now, there COULD be a better meta out there, one that shits on the 1-1-1-2. We won't find it, you and I. There are smarter people than us, the pros and coaches who make a living beating other people at this game, who would likely find the chink in the armor. They haven't though, and I think that speaks volumes about the current meta (and how the Devs balance the game). We probably won't change the meta as it stands until Riot significantly shakes up the game. Which they won't. They like the easy balance (as seen in the Cass rework, they didn't change her because she was a lane bully or too weak, they changed her to make her easier to balance for themselves).

Riot is lazy, and the current meta is a nice and simple way to play the game.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I understand that the reason this current meta exists is that it maximizes gold efficiency and experience. I just think that there are possibly more ways to do that, albeit they may be more risky. I enjoy the risk factor, because I believe that something like duo jungle is possibly more rewarding than the current meta because you're able to farm both jungles more efficiently as well as gank more often. Being unable to do that, though, means that both junglers and the solo laner would fall behind.

I just wanted some ideas and you (and others) have given wonderfully valid reasoning. Thanks!

Leti the Yeti1 votes

Wasnt all mid the best shit ever in the poke/siege meta their jungler power farming? no problem 2 people farming bot? no problem 1 guy top? no problem

like they could really out push 5 ad fkers mid lane

I should really try that... maybe forcing ARAM into summoners rift i really dont think you can afford having 3 or so people farming other lanes when 5 people are pushing mid

ChexMex1 votes

{quoted}

Wasnt all mid the best shit ever in the poke/siege meta their jungler power farming? no problem 2 people farming bot? no problem 1 guy top? no problem

like they could really out push 5 ad fkers mid lane

I should really try that... maybe forcing ARAM into summoners rift i really dont think you can afford having 3 or so people farming other lanes when 5 people are pushing mid

you can.

just put ziggs mid with janna and nothing pushing vs them

TehNACHO1 votes

Which "meta" are you talking about? Our Solotop, Solomid, Duobot, Jungle team comps for example are extremely easy to explain.

Think of it like this, there are 3 lanes with enemy minions, which means 3 lanes people can get gold from. Since we have a team of 5 people, naturally we'd chuck at least one person into each lane so that you can take advantage of the gold flow optimally. Currently, our lineup looks like: Solotop - solomid - solobot

Now enemy minions isn't the only way to get gold; there's a Jungle to take advantage of. Using the same logic as before, putting someone where the gold is to take advantage of said gold, we'd chuck someone into the Jungle. Solotop - Solomid - Solobot - Solo Jungle.

What this means now is that we have one last player and no gold left on the map itself to utilize. Old League of Legends players will tell you about the history of roaming supports, champions who simply ran around everywhere looking for kills and assists instead of minions or monsters to get gold, but that's the old meta. Why do we put our 5th player in the bot lane?

I'll leave this as a challenge to you. I mean, putting the 5th player in a lane makes perfect sense thanks to the Support Items, thus creating a (weak) 5th steam of gold for the 5th player to take advantage of. But why bot lane? Why not put the Support player top or mid?

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I am talking about the current meta, as in what you described. I've always enjoyed toying with the idea of duo mid and duo jungle, and I've seen successful games of duo jungle and duo mid. In fact, my first promo game that I ever played we had a double jungle enemy team that had Fiddlesticks and Nunu.

The reason why I assume putting the support in the bottom lane is to ensure the survival and success of the would-be carry. However, if they're not carrying, why not switch the support over to another lane? If roaming support was good, wouldn't the best roaming potential be in mid lane?

maikokk2 votes

hint: dragon is closest to bot lane

maikokk1 votes

that said, im all for duo mid/duo jungle comps. in a duo jungle comp you would want one to stay close to top and one close to bot and colapse on mid for a 2 man gank/push every so often.

with duo mid, well. mid is close enough to dragon, mid is a short lane. things add up. if you put a long range adc (caitlyn, ashe) with a support in mid you can put an extraordinay amount of pressure on mid turret early with relative safety, while a zone control mage (syndra, malzahar, xerath, ect) takes teleport and holds bot lane solo. forcing the other team to push bot (unsafely)

SuXXoR1 votes

I agree with the duo jungle especially with the new jungle being the way it is. Counter jungle the enemy hard and gank bot often to help the solo person out and it works great! Double smite ftw

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

This is the kind of meta I'm referring to. It seems like it could work with certain team comps. Obviously, taking two farming junglers isn't going to work. However, having one control jungler and one farming jungler could work because being able to pressure the enemy jungler and farm your own jungle relatively safely. I think the only real drawback to this is the fact that wards are fairly inexpensive and could set one of the junglers, if not both, behind. The enemy jungler could even buy a sight stone for superior ward coverage.

The Chin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=yLgEEERo,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2014-12-30T17:56:08.150+0000)

I am talking about the current meta, as in what you described. I've always enjoyed toying with the idea of duo mid and duo jungle, and I've seen successful games of duo jungle and duo mid. In fact, my first promo game that I ever played we had a double jungle enemy team that had Fiddlesticks and Nunu.

The reason why I assume putting the support in the bottom lane is to ensure the survival and success of the would-be carry. However, if they're not carrying, why not switch the support over to another lane? If roaming support was good, wouldn't the best roaming potential be in mid lane?

I've actually done duo mid in a ranked solo queue game, we DESTROYED the enemy fizz. Our midlaner was able to hold his own 1v2 - we got their two mid towers right away, fought him and the jungler 2v2 every time they tried to stop us, and we won the game pretty easily.

But I think the key to that strategy working is that it was decided and talked about in champ select.

This definitely wouldn't have worked if we didn't talk about it beforehand. So those kind of strategies can definitely work, it just takes more coordination than usual - therefor it would be easier and more successful in 5s.

TBH I think we just got lucky that it worked out so well our first time, but it proves that it is possible.

Mindspeaker1 votes

Just play what you feel is fun don't even acknowledge that "meta " even exists .. riot doesn't support any "meta" truest in the randomness

ChexMex1 votes

Here's an excerpt from my 'rags to riches' guide on the basics of league.

The Meta: The meta is the basic framework in which pro players chose the very best way to play League of legends. The meta shifts because as new updates settle in, what we knew before as the meta now is outdated. Nothing stays the same.

There are 5 roles in league of legends. =Adc = Top = Mid = Jungle = Support = There are 4 lanes (Technically speaking). Top, Mid, Jungle, Bottom. There are 5 players.

This means to maximize gold efficiency, somebody needs to give up their bank account. If there were 5 people who only had 4 cars, you don't split one in half and share. You take a ride in one of the cars. That's what the duo bot is, a way to mitigate gold loss while still having a viable 5th teammate.

The reason WHY they are bottom though is the real question, why not mid or top? Simple, the bot lane mid would be responsible for roaming, not like the assassin mid is now . The primary reason why they are bot is because they are closer to dragon and have a longer lane to fight in, versus mid lane who usually has gap closers. They are relatively the same distance from dragon, and it wouldn't hurt to swap laners. HOWEVER, a smaller lane for an adc reduces all in potential because of the safety from tower, and a mid laner bot will stop all possible roam routes top.

Why are mid laners mid? Typically speaking, mid laners are usually assassins. They pop in, and they pop out. Kha zix , Katarina, Fizz, Jarvan, Diana, Lee Sin are all potential assassins that can really 1 combo a target. Because they have a gap closer and fast burst, it's only right to put them mid, where tower will do massive damage early if you're mot careful and its easier to run back to.

Why are top laners top? Usually, top laners are champions that do well later, not so well now. Exceptions to that would be bullies like Riven and Jayce who focus on knocking their laner out like Nasus or Ryze. They are here because they need a long lane to farm and fight in for the majority of the game. Before their powerspikes, they will probably afk farm top unless they have tp.

Why are junglers jungle? Why not 2 or 3? Junglers are there to carry their team through the early game, they are expected to balance out farming the jungle and ganking a lane. Having 2 junglers certainly does alleviate the pressure on having to gank 3 lanes, but you will have to gank a certain lane twice as much. Yes, bot lane. The 2v1 lane that is stuck without a support because there are two junglers, you will have to 'gank' him so much that you tell yourself 'might as bee a suport' because if you don't and you hit tab. You will see 1 dorans blade at 20 minutes because he was stuck at tower all game. END.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

This did not answer any of my questions, to be honest. You vaguely answered the first question I had, which has already been beaten into the ground. I don't feel like you actually tried to answer my questions at all.

I feel like you're just using my post to promo your guide. If so, please don't.

ChexMex1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=yLgEEERo,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-01-01T22:55:41.994+0000)

This did not answer any of my questions, to be honest. You vaguely answered the first question I had, which has already been beaten into the ground. I don't feel like you actually tried to answer my questions at all.

I feel like you're just using my post to promo your guide. If so, please don't.

good thing i didn't actually link it for sale or upvotes or i'd be promo'ing it and you'd look correct :L. I'll be blunt now. Why is the meta the way it is? Are there other metas that could possibly work? If so, what about the idea of counter metas, as in using one meta to counter another? I explained the meta. No meta can overcome this meta.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

You explained what the meta is and why each particular role is in what lane. This, in my opinion, is not explaining the meta. Explaining the meta would mean showcasing weaknesses and strengths of this current meta and why another meta would not work. This means entertaining other metas, which you have not done. You have stayed in the mindset of this current meta, and you've not given thought to how another meta could work. I'm not looking for someone to simply tell me, "This meta is best meta, because this and this. There is no reason to think of another meta." I am looking for someone to think through my questions and give a valid response.

Linking my questions and saying, "I explained" is not explaining.

DWT123451 votes

there are different ways to break the meta. One way would just to be play a champion that isint super popular, like nautalis and such. This is perfectly acceptable. Another way is to play a champion in a way that hasent been played for awhile, like nasus jungle, or skarner or udyr top. This is alright if you do good. And than you can just go crazy, like adc malzahar. If you do this, than fuck you.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

I don't see why it's only acceptable if you do good. People still play Jax top and do horribly. Is it okay if they feed during laning phase? The logic I'm reaching at is that it should be just fine if someone takes an unpopular pick and doesn't do well during the laning phase. If anything, it should be more unacceptable for someone to take a meta pick, which is a meta pick because it does reliably well, and flops with it.

ADC Malzahar is silly, because while he's ranged, it doesn't fit the role of ADC. He has no AD scaling abilities to help him do damage. It's only his little bobbert. On top of it, his kit doesn't even do well as ADC because he has to CC himself to CC another player with his ultimate.

Now with that said, I was looking more towards for ideas on the actual meta. I'm not looking for out of meta picks, but entirely new metas.

Xtremey1 votes

they put 2 people bot for dragon control. The reason for adc's and supports bot is because adc's are auto attack reliant, thus relying on gold more then levels.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

If they're gold reliant, why not put them in the top lane? It's furthest away from the objectives, which means they could easily avoid being given attention in favor of objective pressure. As a jungler, I only visit top lane once at level three.

Xtremey1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fluffysaurus Rex,realm=NA,application-id=WEuoGbmp,discussion-id=yLgEEERo,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2015-01-01T23:03:16.824+0000)

If they're gold reliant, why not put them in the top lane? It's furthest away from the objectives, which means they could easily avoid being given attention in favor of objective pressure. As a jungler, I only visit top lane once at level three.

because the tanks/mages/fighters that are normally played in top lane heavily rely on levels (cc durations, base damage, etc) and would be gimped when placed with a support taking precious exp. Also they are less squishy.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

So, let's put both the adc and support in top lane. There's less objective pressure, but you'll be reliably winning top lane unless the enemy team swaps you. You'll also draw more jungler attention away from dragon and you could possibly even sneak one.

ChexMex1 votes

no, that would be analyzing the meta. You said explain it, which i did. case closed just drop it its w/e

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

The first word in my post is "why." That implies analysis, not explanation.

Why post in my thread if you're not looking to discuss?

DWT123451 votes

the current meta is bassicly a fighter or a bruiser top, fighter jungle, assassin mid, adc and support bot.

ChexMex1 votes

You explained what the meta is and why each particular role is in what lane. This, in my opinion, is not explaining the meta

please be any less clear about what you want because i would give you tons of rp

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Simple. I would like a discussion on new metas and to have my original questions answered. I can't be any clearer than that.

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